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1,,
Date:  1 Jul 83 0017-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #1
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 83 0017-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #1
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Jul 1983        Volume 8 : Issue 1

Today's Topics:
      Books - Robert A. Heinlein & Mack Reynolds & John Varley,
        General Discussion - The Importance of Writing Style,
                    General Comments - WESTERCON,
               Film - Steven Spielberg & Dune (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 83 11:52:40-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!ddw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Heinlein's Works

     What is this with people and "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress?"  The
book is far from Heinlein's best and has major flaws (for a more
thorough discussion than I am prepared to give here, see A. Panshin's
discussion of TMiaHM in \his/ book, "Heinlein in Dimension").  I am
not really interested in starting a debate about which RAH book is the
best or worst (nobody is ever persuaded by these things anyway), but I
have been appalled that so many people consider this second-rate work
one of Heinlein's best, ignoring some of the really good ones like
"Beyond this Horizon" or "Have Space Suit, Will Travel" or "Red
Planet."

                 David Wright

                 {vax135|decvax|purdue}!cornell!ddw
                 ddw@cornell

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 83 13:41:56 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint </amqueue> <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: mack reynolds

     I heard recently that Mack Reynolds died just before a recent
convention.  (I believe the convention was Boskone, where he was
supposed to be goh or something like that.) That will make it sort of
difficult to get any more of his books.  Does anyone have a complete
bibliography of his stuff????

         /amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 83 8:48:11-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!philabs!umcp-cs!aplvax!tad @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: John Varley's new novel

     If anyone is interested, check Varley's short story collection
THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION. You will find the original short story
version of the new novel.

     I'm also interested in comments concerning Varley's concept of
the *adult human*I don't know if I accept some of his premises:
succomments?

                        Terry at APL  (tad@aplvax)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 83 15:12:45-EDT (Mon)
From: J.C. Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: writing style

     Apropos of this discussion of style versus content or plot, my
husband, who is a write of non-fiction, has asked that I pose this
question to digest readers:

"How important is writing style - vocabulary, sentence structure,
narrative structure, word choice - to you as a science fiction
reader?"

     My personal feeling is that style is not the most important thing
I usually look for.  There are enough sf authors that I have read that
can actually write in at least a half-assed readable fashion, that I
don't go out of my way looking for true stylists. It is always
gratifying to find someone who has something to say and can express
him/herself very well, and if a book is written so badly that is hurts
the brain to get through it, then I don't finish it.  Unfortunately,
sf seems to have gotten the reputation (out in the "real" world) of
being very badly written.  I look at the "regular" fiction being
written these days and find that there are almost no new ideas or
well-discussed ideas out there at all, but because the authors are
"names", they get all sorts of money and attention whereas very few
new science fiction offerings get any attention.  (The Washington
Post, by the way, is one big daily which does give some attention to
sf reviews, and the reviewer even seems to know something.)

j c patilla

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 1983 1326-EDT
From: Eirikur Hallgrimsson <EIRIKUR at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Westercon

- - - - - - - Begin message from: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Date: 21 Jun 1983 1305-EDT
From: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
To: eirikur at MARKET

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #33 )

     (hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!packet!cfv @ Ucb-Vax) I don't speak
for Westercon, having no knowledge whatever of the situation there,
but in Minneapolis at least the last thing we want is lots of
publicity for our convention, especially locally.  The thing's too big
as it is, is the general opinion.  This is not to argue against your
general point that fannish groups should consider helping public
television, mind you.

- - - - - - End forwarded message

------------------------------

Date: 27 June 1983 18:39 edt
From: Schauble.HIS_Guest at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: SF-Lovers Party

     It's also time to begin thinking about an SF-Lovers party. Once
again, I will be unable to provide a room, sinc I will be running the
bid party for the 1985 Phoenix WesterCon (everyone invited). I hope
some of the San Jose SF-Lovers will get something together.

          Paul

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 83  20:54 EDT (Fri)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: Spielberg

     Aw, c'mon NOW!

     Doesn't anyone remember the made-for-TV movie DUEL?  (Which
starred bardford Dillman)

     How about an episode of the old "Name of the Game" series called
"LA 2017"?  (This starred Gene Barry)

     Both of these pieces of EXCELLENT television drama were directed
by a very young SPIELBERG.

{Mijjil}

(Hey Lauren, tell everybody who did all the music for "Lost in
Space"!)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1983 0128-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <EE.GDS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>

     Paraphrased quote from Jor-El in Superman I:

"You must not, under any circumstances, alter the flow of time."

(sorry if it's not exact, perhaps someone will correct me.)

     Although I have not seen Superman III, I have garnered from the
film clips that it bears no relevance to the above quote.  I would
like to offer this as a possible plot for Superman IV, if it should
ever come to pass.

     Why was it so important that Superman NOT change the course of
events?  And why was he able to get away with it in Superman I?  (If
you recall, he saved Lois's life by flying around Earth faster than
the speed of light until *before* she was killed, then rescued her.)

     I would like to see some developments with this.  Picture a sect
such as the Watchers of Marvel Comics coming to Earth in Superman IV
and conducting a tribunal for Superman, bringing him up on charges for
altering time.  Of course, Lex Luthor will try to exploit Superman as
always, but he'll be tossed out by the Watchers.  The trial goes on
for weeks, until a final verdict is passed.  Since Superman did it for
love of Lois (even though it was for personal gain), he is offered a
choice: Either he must sacrifice his powers as Superman for ever, and
live as mortal Clark Kent to marry Lois Lane, or he must be returned
to the day that he saved Lois, only this time he cannot alter time to
save her (in other words, she dies, and life goes on as it should
have).

     I am surprised that something like this was not covered in the
previous (or current) Superman flicks.

--bo (gds@mit-xx.arpa, {ee.gds%mit-oz, uc.gds%mit-ee}@mit-mc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 09:34:31 EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Dino DiLaurentiis

     Hey! Though I thought the remake of "King Kong" was a
travesty--except for Jeff Bridges--let's give the man some credit. Di
Laurentiis did a fine job with a remake of "Flash Gordon": the casting
was good, the direction was just campy enough, Ming was wonderfully
evil, the music (by "Queen") was exceptional. Having grown up on the
reruns of the Buster Crabbe original, I thought I would hate the
remake. I didn't.

     By the way, does anybody know who did the special effects on the
X-rated "Flesh Gordon"? Is there any truth to the story that Larry
Niven was one of the financial backers?

------------------------------

Date: 27 June 1983 02:00 EDT
From: Don M. Matheson <DMM @ MIT-ML>
Subject: Dino DeLaurentis

     Dino has directed such gems as:

                       The remake of King Kong
                       Flash Gordon (The movie)
                 and how could we forget Barbarella?

     Point taken.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 10:09:57-EDT (Thu)
From: J.C. Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Dune

     Re the Dune movie - the editor of MUSICIAN magazine claims that
Sting told him he is playing "one of the three bad guys in the movie"
but the editor forgets which one.  I can however find this out from
someone at A&M records if anyone's dying to know.

j.c. patilla

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 83 14:39:57-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: DUNE Inquiry - (nf)

     De Laurentis has made

          i   King Kong (the remake)
          ii  Flash Gordon (the remake)
          iii Barbarella

      On the basis of these three movies alone, he should never be
allowed near a piece of film again.

                Joe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  1 Jul 83 1734-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #2
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 83 1734-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #2
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Jul 1983        Volume 8 : Issue 2

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (13 msgs)





















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 23:22:17 EDT  (Wed)
From: Brad Balfour <brad.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Luke and Leia (spoiler!!!)

     I'm not sure what all the fuss is about over Luke and Leia's
parentage.  My understanding of what was said in RotJ and in the book
of RotJ was that Luke and Leia are twins.  They have the same mother
and their father is Vader.  Vader left their mother before he knew
that she was pregnant and so never knew that he had any children
(seems that I've heard that one before...  maybe ST II??).  Luke and
Leia's mother died shortly after childbirth and Ben Kenobi then took
Luke to live with his Uncle and Aunt on Tatooine (sp?)  and took Leia
to be raised by the Royal Family of Alderan.  So she is a real
princess since neither she nor anyone outside her immediate "family"
knew she was adopted.

     I hope that this clears up the mess.

                        b**2
                        (Brad Balfour)
                        brad.umcp-cs@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1983 1601-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX>
Subject: Droid torture

     Will Martin asks why a droid would be physically tortured,
instead of just causing "pain" by direct electrical connection.  I can
think of two reasons.  First, Jabba is supposed to be really nasty,
but nobody wants to look at people being tortured.  So Lucas implies
that Jabba uses torture on people by showing droids being tortured.
Second, imagine yourself in a totally painless state, watching someone
slice pieces out of you.  I find the thought of mutilation more
frightening than pain, and a droid might well feel the same.

Larry Seiler
(This message is rated PG - not suitable for small children)

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 25 June 1983, 11:34-EDT
From: Arthur L. Chin <ARTHUR at MIT-ML>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #51

     Lemme see...  did I miss something about the Star Wars Saga?

     Uncle Owen is Luke's Uncle.
     Darth Vader (Anakin) is Luke's father.
     Therefore, Darth Vader is Owen's Brother.
     And We Have Speculated that Obi-Wan Is Owen's Brother as Well!
     So EVERYONE (except for Big E, Han, Chewie and Lando) IS A
SKYWALKER!!!!

     Now, wouldn't it be nice if Han and Lando were Brothers?
     And C3P0 and R2D2 were manufactured at the same plant?
     And the Ewoks were unsuccessful clones of Chewbacca?
     And the Emperor was the grandfather of all?

     What a concept: Patricide/brothercide/allsortsofcide going on
here.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 83 16:22:45-PDT (Fri)
From: menlo70!sytek!syteka!toms @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Levitating Death Stars

     AHH. Article 'Levitating Death Stars' from sri-arpa. 0 lines.  At
last a cogent, logical and appropriate posting about Lucas-lala-land
films.  I am so happy.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 10:15:21-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxa!mhuxi!aluxz!mhuxj!presley @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RotJ Nitpicking

     One day they were sitting in a restaurant trying to come up with
the name for Luke's father.  Someone said "Please pass me a napkin."
"A Napkin?  Anapkin ... Anakin!!".

        Joe Presley (...!mhuxj!presley, harpo!presley)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 20:16:15-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!hou5f!hou5e!mat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Disturbance in the Force, and other topics

     Why do those most powerful in the force not use it in physical
ways?  Perhaps that is the way of the Dark Side.  It seems that the
Force is related in concept to the Tao (pronounce T as ( T + D ) / 2 )
-- the fundemental rule of power then would be ``don't just DO
something!  Stand there.'' -- although seeking POWER would also be
contrary to the ways of the Force.

     Regarding the suggestion that Luke ``Son of Skywalker'' is the
most powerful of all the Jedi -- maybe, if we exclude the Emperor.
Once again, I say that the final battle between Luke and old
Orange-Eye was just TOO physical.  I could have bought it if he just
STOOD and threw sparks, but having him chase Luke around like he was
trying to punish a bad puppy was not really believable.

     And, yes, I think that the M. Falcon really should have been
destroyed ...  but by showing that Han lacks the gift of prophecy we
can discredit him forever (I hope) as being an unaware Jedi.

                                Mark Terribile
                                Duke of deNet

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 16:55:31-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxf!govern @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Anakin revisited

     An attempt was made to make Anakin = ana + kin, ana being defined
as "reverse" or "backwards".  The meaning is closer to "on top of" or
"again".  Thus, "Anabaptists" were people who got baptised again, and
the "Anabasis" is Xenophon's account of his journey returning
"Upcountry".  However, I don't have a Greek dictionary here.

     I also don't have a concordance, but the "Anakim", who were
descendants of Anak, are mentioned in Genesis or Exodus somewhere.  I
think they were a Canaanite group, but it escapes my memory.

                        Bill Stewart

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 17:17:43-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxa!mhuxm!mhuxv!mphw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RE: RotJ Nitpicking

     Construction: I noticed in the scene where DV's shuttle first
sets down on the Death Star that there were some workers outside
running some kind of welding torch.  Not much of a work crew, but then
DV was going there to speed them up.

                        Pat Wood
                        mhuxv!mphw

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 83 5:42:21-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!cca!ima!inmet!porges @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: ROTJ misc. spoilers - (nf)

     And yet another unanswered question.....

     Just how did the Ewok tribe come to have a god who looked like a
golden robot?  Unless, of course, C3PO and R2D2 have been to the
forest moon before, during the first trilogy, before C3PO's memory
banks got cleared somewhere in between (but probably not R2D2's).
Yeah, a lot of hypothesizing.

     This is in the same class with Luke's feeling in ESB that Dagobah
felt familiar...presumably he was taken there as a small child while
OB-1 and Yoda plotted to hide him.

     And, I felt that Anakin, in a addition to ana-kin, has overtones
of the Ankh, the Egyptian power symbol.

                -- Don Porges
                ...harpo!inmet!porges
                ...hplabs!sri-unix!cca!ima!inmet!porges
                ...yale-comix!ima!inmet!porges

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 18:56:54-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!hogpc!4431jbd @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RotJ Quibble

     I have one quibble with RotJ (aside from the nausiating final
scene, of course).

     There is a celebration going full blast on Endor (sp?), and yet
(I know I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) as I recall there was a Very
Large Portion of the Imperial Navy waiting for the rebels, who
themselves only brought a relatively small (?) portion of *their*
starforces.

     Where did all of those Imperial ships *go*?  ("Sir, the Death
Star is gone, and I suddenly forgot what we were here for.  Can you
explain?" "Why, yes!  We were sent here to hang in space for fifteen
movie minutes and then get the hell out! Attention all hands: prepare
for Hyperspace!")

     Seriously, though, even if turning tail was a good idea at the
time, I can't believe that the Emporer (sp?) didn't have a few loyal
toadies commanding those star destroyers.

                Logic is the First Casualty of the Cinema
                John J. Beecher-Deighan
                hogpc!4431jbd

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 1983 0835-PDT
From: Donald I. Baker <BAKER at JPL-VAX>
Subject: RE: different Versions of Star Wars I

     On opening day, Star Wars (now SW 4/ANH) did not make any mention
of future or 'past' se/pre/quels.  That only happened after it was out
for a while.  I did not see the "Episode Eye-Vie- ..." stuff until
TESB was released.

     There are also some scenes cut out from earlier versions: Does
anyone remember hearing a Steam-Trooper shouting "Close the blast
doors, close the blast doors!" while Con Solo and the Cookie Monster
were being chased back toward the Falcon?  The "Open the blast doors,
open the blast doors!" is still there, but the effect isn't quite so
funny w/o hearing the same guy mis-time it a couple of seconds
earlier.  In fact, if you know when it is, you can get a great
reaction from the crowd by shouting it in a Steam-Trooper imitation
voice at the right time!  There are other scenes missing, too, but the
clarity of memory...

Subj: RE: The Emp sensing Yoda

     Why should the Emperor sense Yoda in any special way?  Yoda's
"disturbance of the force" has been there for centuries.  The big E
could not have been around for more than a couple hundred years (he
seems quite powerful, but in ANH, he has only recently completed his
hold on the senate).  Yoda's disturbance could very well be considered
a steady back-ground signal to new-comers.  Only by close proximity
would the difference be sensed, and Yoda's home planet seems to be
somewhat remote, making random flybys by random Jedi unlikely.

                  "For Monagar, forever..."
                  Doug Freyburger

DOUG@JPL-VAX

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 1983 1326-EDT
From: Eirikur Hallgrimsson <EIRIKUR at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: RotJ

- - - - - - - Begin message from: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Date: 21 Jun 1983 1305-EDT
From: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
To: eirikur at MARKET

     My highest compliments to Poskanzer.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA for "The
Emperor is killed by Luke's father to save his children."

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #29 )

     ("KEN MOREAU AT CLOSUS c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>) You don't
think that seeing Yoda die (in RotJ) indicates he won't be around in
the next trilogy?  We may see him in ghostly form, but I doubt he'll
be a significant character.

     Also, it was made explicit in RotJ that Leia is the other, being
Luke's sister.

     ("STEVE LIONEL at STAR c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>) It
shouldn't be too surprising that the actual film RotJ used a lot of
the ideas we speculated might be used -- after all, we speculated
about so MANY ideas, we had to be right occasionally.

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #30 )

     (Robert Amsler <AMSLER@SRI-AI.ARPA>) The walkers bothered me.
They were visually impressive, but much too slow to be useful.  Given
the technology of the Jabba's sand barge or the imperial anti-grav
sleds, I don't see the tactical use for a slow walker.  (If the
military is looking into walkers now, perhaps they're looking into
faster ones, or perhaps they just don't have anti-grav sleds as an
alternative.)

     Your mention of ANOTHER Death Star explosion reminds me -- am I
the only one who was bothered by the speed with which these huge
explosions take place?  They look like fireworks going off -- not
surprising when viewed with a knowledge that it's just a special
effect.  I believe a real explosion that large would proceed MUCH more
slowly.  Furthermore, I think it would look a lot more impressive if
they had run it more slowly.

 - - - - - - End forwarded message

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 83 21:48:43 EDT
From: Dir LCSR Comp Facility <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: RotJ religious issues

     About Eastern antecedents to The Force.  I claim that Yoda is
really a bit more primitive than the existing Eastern religions.  I do
not claim to be an expert on this, but as I understand it, both Hindu
and Buddhist thought consider that the ultimate reality is spiritual.
Indeed they refer to the material world as "maya", which refers to
something of dubious reality (the usual translation is "illusion", but
I think that is a bit too strong).  Some aspects of Yoda are found
there: the idea that you should do no harm, the idea that there is a
power beyond ourselves, etc.  But the Jedi strike me as something
considerably less sophisticated and less spiritual than the real
Hindus and Buddhists.  As Yoda explains it, the material world has
produced The Force - it is an emanation of all living things.  It
doesn't really lead you beyond the material world to any real
spiritual insights.  It is mostly just a psuedo-religious way to
justify neat special effects (i.e. magic).  I know even less about
primitive religions than about Eastern ones, but it looks a lot like a
slightly updated animism, the sort of thing you would expect a shaman
to believe in.  (It is updated because the real animism believed that
all beings have souls, whereas The Force seems to be a single thing.)
I have always claimed that the religion of the Jedi was the perfect
20th Century religion.  A way to get some neat supernatural effects
without any of the demands made by the real religions.  (The real
difference between the East and the West in religion is over the
degree of reality accorded to the material world.  In Christianity
human life, in the body, is redeemed.  In Eastern religions this is
unthinkable.  I think that Jediism is Western in its basic
orientation.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 83 1746-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #3
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Jul 1983       Volume  8 : Issue 3

Today's Topics:
                 Books - Stephen Donaldson (2 msgs),
                       Discussion - S.F. Music,
                   Film - Twilight Zone & War Games

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1983 1052-EDT
From: Nessus at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re: White Gold (SPOILER)

Date: 20 Jun 1983 2258-EDT
From: Randy Haskins <uc.rgh at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: White Gold (SPOILER)

...

     So, what is Linden going to do now?  No doubt, the Land will soon
be in trouble again.  Now that they have a new (better) Staff of Law,
it will be a simple matter to summon her.  She has the White Gold now,
but when she shows up in the Land, will they give her the Staff of Law
to wield?  I can't imagine there being much of a contest if she has
her health-sight, the Ring, and the Staff.  I would be interested in
reading about the Chronicles of Linden Avery the Chosen, but I think
one book would cover it since she's so powerful.

     In the first chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Chovenant (and
everyone else) had health-sight, and the staff of law was owned by the
good-guys for part of the time.  Thus, it doesn't seem to me that
Linden Avery will be any more powerful than Covenant had the potential
to be.  The biggest difference seems to me to be that Linden is less
wimpy and is less likely to have qualms about using her power.

                        -Doug Alan

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1983 0935-EDT
From: Randy Haskins <uc.rgh at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Thomas Covenant

     To anyone who gets discouraged reading the first book of the
first chronicles of TC: KEEP ON.  In "Lord Foul's Bane," Donaldson is
apparently learning how to write.  The next two books are much better
written.  The second book is a good 'war story,' and the third book is
a good study in Covenant's struggle with his power.  From there, you
have to decide for yourself if you want to read the second set...

                        --Randwulf

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1983 1048-EDT
From: Nessus at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re: More Music

From: "SCHOFIELD AT MERLIN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: More music

...

RUSH

     A band which has been around for some time but only recently
emerged from the head-banger hard rock cucoon in which so many bands
begin careers. A three man band with a true feel for sf and the
ability to make a song/story come alive through music:

     I too like Rush, but they did not only recently emerge from their
head-banger hard rock cucoon -- they did that in about 1975 after
their third album (they now have nine studio albums).  For three or
four albums they did absolutely great music which almost always had a
science fiction or fantasy theme.  Unfortunately, on their last three
albums, they have sold out (for megabucks, I guess) and do pop (good
pop, but still pop -- not nearly as good as their vintage stuff) and
have greatly reduced the amount of science fiction content in their
music.

                                -Doug Alan

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1983  15:33 EDT (Fri)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST@MIT-OZ>
Subject: Twilight Zone: the Movie (semi-spoiler)

     I went to see Twilight Zone: The Movie on opening night here in
Boston.  In general I liked it, although I would not label it
stupendous.  After I say the movie, I saw a review of it on TV by
Siskel and Ebert (sp?).  I agree with the major observation that they
made, but disagree with the conclusion.  Namely, I agree that the
first two vignettes are not as "entertaining" as the last two.  From
this they conclude that the movie was not up to par because "with all
that Twilight Zone tradition, you would expect that they could come up
with four good episodes".  The problem here is that while the first
two were slightly less entertaining, it is hard to say they were not
as "good".  Especially given that the first two are more in the TZ
tradition.  They both deal more with human nature and the fairness of
bizarre twists of fate as did most of the TV episodes.  The last two
vignettes have the viewer more on the edge of their seat and are less
predictable, but draw their strength more from special effects than on
insights into human nature.

     In addition to the four vignettes their is also a small beginning
and ending sequence featuring Dan Akroyd that is fairly amusing.

     Since I don't want to discuss plot (because of spoilers), I will
end by giving my ratings of the four vignettes separately and then of
the movie as a whole based on a system of 1-5: (4, 3, 5, 4) and 4 as a
whole.  As an aside, it is interesting that the second vignette was
the one directed by Spielberg and was the least good, although it is
the one that is arguably the most TZ-like.

Greg

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 10:25:59 PDT (Friday)
From: Pettit.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #55

     I liked War Games.  Granted it will suffer a lot in comparison to
"Failsafe" and "Dr. Strangelove", *IF* you think of it as trying to
preach the same message.  As as a vehicle for "Nuclear War could
happen despite our best intentions" it would certainly fail because,
as Lauren says, in its choice of a disaster scenario it is neither
realistic enough to be believable, nor unrealistic enough to be
enjoyed as satire.  And as Mike Inners said, "because ill effects are
not avoided."  But I don't think that was its message at all.

     I saw the message as "Think! Care! And don't be afraid to do what
caring tells you you should do."  That stopping a nuclear war was the
thing the characters got a chance to care about is almost incidental.
The nuclear threat is there for increased dramatic effect and tension,
not for realism.  So of course the ill effects had to be avoided, in
order to show that acting on your conscience can make a difference.
The movie is not anti-machine at all -- it is anti-people-acting-
like-machines.  The computers, like the chess references, are there to
present this metaphorical contrast, not to be the dangers themselves.

     I'm a little surprised that so few people recognized this as the
message.  The movie wasn't at all subtle about it.  EVERY major
character, and most of the minor characters, was faced with a choice
between acting on a concern for life, or pushing that concern aside.
All the acts of caring were depicted as acts of independence and
freedom, and were shown by later events to be the "right" choice.  All
the acts of pushing aside thoughts of caring were depicted as being
mechanical, as the actions of a pawn -- by pawns of military orders,
of political ideology, of misanthropic bitterness, of programming, of
a vested interest in the computer system, etc., etc.  For example, the
human missile launchers in the opening silo scene were depicted as
cogs in a machine, acting on orders, and the independent choice not to
follow orders was later vindicated, in that there was no real attack.
Even the telephone scene can be interpreted as a machine blindly
insisting on a dime when lives of millions are at stake, and human
ingenuity winning out.  As an example of how blatant the movie was
about its message, the turning point in the professor's actions was
when the whiz-kid asked him, "When was the last time you really
cared?"  As another example, the turning point in the general's
attitude was when the professor yelled at him, "Look at that! Does it
make any SENSE?  Would Russia really be so stupid as as to launch a
full-scale attack without provocation, that would leave them
devastated?  It's a MACHINE, playing a game!"  At that point, the
general told his missiles to halt their launch (too late), and became
a good-guy rooting for the kid to win.  As a final example, the
turning point in WOPR's actions was when it stopped acting like a real
simulation program, and did the very un-computer-like trick of looking
outside the programmed game goals and acting on a higher meta-goal:
"only play games that somebody can win."  It was OK with me that WOPR
in the final few minutes started doing totally nonsensical things like
sparking and draining the power supply and talking without a
voice-synthesizer device and running the simulation at thousands of
times the rate that it had been running it before, because at that
point it had stopped being a machine and become a metaphor for OUR
stopping being machines.  It had to do all sorts of amazing things to
underline its miraculous transformation.

     "War Games" isn't a great movie.  "E.T." presented the same
message in a much more poetic way.  But it's a good movie, and
shouldn't be faulted for not doing all sorts of things it wasn't meant
to do.

-- Teri Pettit

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jul 83 1822-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #4
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 4

Today's Topics:
                            Administrivia,
    Books - Donald Barr & David Brin (2 msgs) & Gregory Benford &
                       James P. Hogan (2 msgs),
Discussion - Good Books to Read

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 83 18:06:19 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Administrivia

Hi All--

     We discovered the problem with the Volume Numbers and have
corrected it.  We are back at Volume 8, this issue being number 4.

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 1983 10:09:13 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Donald Barr Chidsey, Who Is (Answer)

     Re query in V7,#40 -- Donald Barr (not Daniel Barr), author of
SPACE RELATIONS and A PLANET IN ARMS, is also/in reality (to the best
of my knowledge the historian DONALD BARR CHIDSEY, author of books
under that name.

     Or a relative, or I'm mistaken.  But I read one of Chidsey's
books, and the subject matter (war, revolution, historical stuff, 1776
redux) seemed cut from the same cloth.  I also think the bios clinched
it, but can't swear to it.

     Does anybody have any comments on Patricia McKillip's RIDDLE OF
STARS Trilogy (RIDDLE MASTER OF HED, HEIR OF SEA AND FIRE, HARPIST IN
THE WIND)?

Daniel Dern, BBN@UNIX

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 83 10:54:31-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!yale-com!leichter @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: David Brin

     I also remember a (very nice, rather odd) story called something
like "The Loom of Thessaly" (by David Brin) in (probably) Fantasy & SF
(could have been Asimov's) about a year and a half ago.  If you run
into it, read it; it's worth it.

                                        -- Jerry

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1983 2234-EDT
From: VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO
Subject: "Sundiver" physics

     Someone mentioned David Brin's book "Sundiver" a while back.  I
read it and liked it, but am a little unsure of the physics behind it.
Perhaps someone here can say if his machinery would work.

     The premise is that people have built a ship to go exploring the
sun.  To do this Brin had to think of some way to keep the ship from
vaporizing.  If a refrigeration system keeps some area cooler than its
environment, it has to make some other area hotter.  The heat removed
from the ship's hull has to go somewhere.  Ordinary radiators wouldn't
work, because they would have to be hotter than the 6000 degree plasma
outside in order to dissipate the heat.  They would instantly
vaporize, and you would back where you were.  The heat could be dumped
into some fluid that would then be ejected from the ship (this is how
rocket combustion chambers keep from burning up), but whatever put the
heat into the fluid would again have to be hotter than the outside.

     Brin's solution is to dump the excess heat into an X-ray laser
(xaser?).  The laser beams the energy out through the surrounding gas.
A blackbody that emitted its peak energy in the x-rays would have a
temperature in the millions of degrees.  The laser, then, is 'hotter'
then the surroundings and so can radiate to them.

     This sounds kind of plausible, but my thermodynamics isn't solid
enough to be sure.  Can you really cool things off by making them
lase? The book has a lot of other nice ideas (eg. in order to join the
galactic federation a species has to bring another species to
sentience.  Intelligent chimpanzees and dolphins figure into the
plot.), but I'm not too sure of its physics.

John Redford
DEC Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  2 Jul 1983 21:47-PDT
From: Steven Tepper <greep@SU-DSN>
Subject: Article on science in sf

     There is a short article by Gregory Benford, author of
"Timescape", called "Putting science in science fiction" in this
month's issue of "The Writer".

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 83 0:27:57-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: James P. Hogan, anyone? - (nf)

     I've been waiting for a mention of James P. Hogan in
net.sf-lovers.

     Anyone care to comment on his books?  I've read and enjoyed them,
but enough about my tastes.  Perhaps some of Hogan's tales are
appropriate reading for "Libertarian SF" fans.

     Hogan's latest, "Voyage from Yesteryear," is somewhat different
from his earlier works (the Giants, etc.) which speculate about the
origin of humanity on Earth, among other things. It seems to continue
the trend seen in "The Genesis Machine" and "Thrice Upon a Time."
(along with "The Two Faces of Tomorrow").  "Voyage...," however, seems
to outdo all Hogan's others in describing what human society could be
like if technology is used properly.

     Feel welcome to reply to me by mail, although I'd like to see a
short discussion on the net.

                        Marion Hakanson
                {hp-pcd,teklabs}!orstcs!hakanson

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 12:39:27-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!cmcl2!sullivan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan, anyone? - (nf)

     I have read all of James P. Hogan's books and found each one
delightful.  I enjoy his depictions of computers, which I think are a
bit more realistic than most.  He is an ex-DEC salesman, so he knows
somethings about them.  "Thrice Upon a Time" has some mention of DEC
computers, I believe.

David J. Sullivan       UUCP:   ...!floyd!cmcl2!sullivan
(212) 460-7287          ARPA:   SULLIVAN@NYU

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 83 18:20:35 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: List of SF books to read

     A while ago someone asked for a list of books to introduce new
readers to SF.  There is a book called "The List of Books" by Frederic
Raphael and Kenneth McLeish (Harmony Books, 1981) which lists around
3000 books for a library.  Not THE library, but an imaginary library,
entirely biased by the authors.  They have a section on SF books that
I thought might be of interest.  I do not entirely agree with the
authors on their choices, but I think they are a pretty good group of
books overall.  One problem though is that they don't have any books
listed after 1971.  Don't know why.  Any comments?

Aldiss, Brian -- "Hothouse" (1962)

     Interesting dramatization of major science fiction theme; what
happens when elements that man takes for granted are turned
topsy-turvy.  In this case the earth's atmosphere becomes overheated
and mankind has to sweat it out.  Also: "Billion Year Spree" (history
of the genre); "Frankenstein Unbound"; "The Malacia Tapestry", etc.

Asimov, Isaac -- "The Foundation Trilogy" (1951)

     Asimov is one of the great names in modern science fiction; his
enormous output tends to slapdash chatter in later books, but here he
was at full stretch.  Also: "Nightfall and Other Stories"; "The Gods
Themselves"; "The Caves of Steel", etc.

Ballard, J.G. -- "The Terminal Beach" (1964)

     These stories, by Britain's master of SF alienation and disaster,
have the clarity of obsession which is more diluted in his other work.
Also: "The Atrocity Exhibition"; "The Drowned World"; "Vermilion
Sands", etc.

Bester, Alfred -- "Tiger! Tiger!" (1957)

     Also known as "The Stars My Destination".  One of the cult books
of the field.  Lurid adventures and vengeance of Gully Foyle, bane of
the 24th century.  Ingenious, surrealist fun.  Also: "The Demolished
Man".

Blish, James -- "A Case of Conscience" (1958)

     Sense of morality perfectly matches SF ideas: Blish invents an
alien race with no sense of good or evil and therefore considered "in
a state of sin" by religious zealot, very disturbing.  Also: "And All
the Stars a Stage"; "The Day after Judgment"; "Cities in Flight", etc.

Bradbury, Ray -- "The Martian Chronicles" (1950)

     Although Bradbury's prose sometimes seems empurpled, his
consistent sense of the poetry of man's search for new frontiers, both
inside and outside himself, has attracted many who might not consider
themselves SF readers.  Also: "Fahrenheit 451"; "The Golden Apples of
the Sun"; "The Illustrated Man", etc.

Clarke, Arthur C. -- "Childhood's End" (1953)

     Clarke's vision of humanity eventually becoming godlike reached
its ultimate in the film "2001: A Space Odyssey".  But "Childhood's
End" expresses this view with even more coherence; it is remarkable
for its compassion.  Also: "Imperial Earth"; "Rendezvous with Rama";
"Foundations of Paradise", etc.

Dick, Philip K. -- "The Man in the High Castle" (1962)

     Beautifully organized novel postulating an alternative world in
which the Axis powers won World War II.  One of modern SF's great
books.  Also: "The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch"; "Martian
Time-slip"; "A Scanner Darkly", etc.

Harrison, Harry -- "Make Room! Make Room!" (1966)

     Prolific (and variable) author's best if not funniest novel,
later filmed as "Soylent Green".  Set in a teeming New York, where
people, regardless of the pressure of space, will not stop
reproducing.  Also: "Bill: The Galactic Hero"; "The Technicolor Time
Machine"; "The Stainless Steel Rat", etc.

Heinlein, Robert A. -- "Stranger in a Strange Land" (1961)

     Heinlein is the guru of SF conservatism, yet this book (preaching
what appeared to be free-choice and free-love) was adopted by the
hippies of the 1960s, even becoming a "bible" for killer Charles
Manson and his family.  The message, though, was much more rigorous
than they thought.  Also: "Starship Troopers", etc.

Herbert, Frank -- "Dune" (1965)

     Dune is a planet in a far off time and a far off system on the
extreme edge of aridity -- water is more precious than diamonds; an
entire culture is based on water scarcity rather than on water plenty.
Technically superb in its details, the book is also a masterful
thriller.

Le Guin, Ursula K. -- "The Left Hand of Darkness" (1969)

     Le Guin has a poetic sensibility; this study of a world called
"Winter" and the sexual life of its inhabitants is a stunning
creation.  Also: "The Lathe of Heaven"; "Planet of Exile"; "The
Dispossessed".

Lem, Stanislaw -- "Solaris" (1971)

     Story of a planet which is a sentient creature, capable of
creating duplicates from the memories of the earth people who visit
it; made into a haunting film.  Also: "The Cyberiad"; "The
Invincible".

Lewis, C.S. -- "Out of the Silent Planet" (1938)

     One of Lewis's attempts to charge SF ideas with Christian
principles.  Not always like by SF buffs, its popularity has
nevertheless brought many readers into the fold (of the genre).  Also:
"Perelandra"; "That Hideous Strength".

Miller, Walter M., Jr. -- "A Canticle for Leibowitz" (1960)

     Awesome account of post-apocalypse world and the Second Coming,
immaculately conceived in SF terms; postulates the Church as a
repository of technological secrets from a past civilization now
regarded as sacred writings.  Also: "Conditionally Human".

Moorcock, Michael -- "The Final Programme" (1968)

     The "wild man" of British science fiction, claims that the
apocalypse is now.  One of many novels starring Moorcock's anti-hero
Jerry Cornelius.  Also: "The English Assassin"; "A Cure for Cancer";
"Gloriana", etc.

Pohl, F. and Kornbluth, C.M. -- "The Space Merchants" (1953)

     The authors were exercised about how consumers are manipulated by
conglomerates.  In this novel, Venus is being carved up by advertising
agents.  Madison Avenue lives -- out there!  Also: "Slave Ship";
"Drunkard's Walk"; "Gateway" (all by Pohl).

Stapledon, Olaf -- "Last and First Men" (1930)

     Stapledon had vast ideas; this account of the human species
swings through millennia as though they were skittles.  Also:
"Sirius"; "Odd John"; "Star Maker", etc.

Van Vogt, A.E. -- "The Voyage of the Space Beagle" (1950)

     Van Vogt's apocalyptic prose is easily parodied; but his ideas,
as in this episodic story of a space ship threading through space, are
fascinating.  Also: "The Weapon Shops of Isher"; "The World of
Null-A".

Verne, Jules -- "Journey to the Centre of the Earth" (1864)

     One of the great precursors of modern SF takes one of the great
precursory themes, dispatching his explorers on a trip which includes
Atlantis, Iceland, prehistory and a packet of lecturing.  Also: "From
the Earth to the Moon"; "20,000 Leagues under the Sea"; "Around the
World in Eighty Days".

Vonnegut, Kurt, Jr. -- "The Sirens of Titan" (1959)

     Cascade of elegantly loony invention, set on more than one
heavenly body.  Cynical explanation for just about everything
(including Stonehenge and the Great Wall of China) well-wrapped in a
neat plot.  Hellishly funny -- Vonnegut before he was taken up by
everyone and went soft.  Also: "Player Piano"; "Cat's Cradle";
"Slaughterhouse 5", etc.

Wells, H.G. -- "The Time Machine" (1895)

     This marvelous story contains much of Wells' genius; science made
plausible and shaped to the needs of mankind.  Also: "The Invisible
Man"; "The Shape of Things to Come"; "The First Men in the Moon".

Wyndham, John -- "The Day of the Triffids" (1951)

     Through mankind's negligence -- not to mention sudden world-wide
blindness -- large perambulating hunks of vegetation take over the
British Isles.  Fine example of the English Cosy Catastrophe School.
Also: "The Kraken Wakes"; "The Midwich Cuckoos"; "The Crysalids".

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jul 83 2246-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #5
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 5

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (10 msgs)























----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 June 1983 06:08 edt
From: Bergman.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Re: RotJ Spoiler

     I have a thought on the question of why Darth Vader didn't vanish
when he died: crumbling to dust upon death is a traditional end for
supernatural creature that have lasted far beyond their normal life
span.  Judging by Luke's age, Darth Vader was middle/late-middle aged.
Obi-wan, on the other hand, was sufficiently versed in the force to
teach Anakin Sywalker when Anakin was a young man.  This is not proof
that Obi-wan was old, but is somewhat suggestive.  Yoda we know was
old, it seems likely to believe that his age was due to his mastery of
the force, not his race, which would explain the comment about not
having sufficient control of the force to live forever.  The emperor
also seems to be quite old.  Wasn't he the enemy that Obi-wan trained
Anakin to fight against?

     Something that bothers me a great deal but that no one seems to
have mentioned yet is this: when Lando realized that it was a trap,
why didn't he leave immediately?  The whole point of cleverly spotting
a trap is not to fall into it.  Also, the entire plan was based on the
death star's weapon systems being inoperative.  The force field was
needed to protect the death star because of its lack of weapons.
Therefore, once the force field was finally destroyed, the death star
should have wiped out the rebel fleet...

Mike Bergman
bergman.softarts@mit-multics

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 83 22:44:07-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!mabgarstin @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Air lock problem on Death Star

      I'm surprised that so many people have wondered about how the
ships could get in and out of the bays on the Death Stars with air in
the bays and no doors out into space. Don't any of you remeber in ANH
when the MF gets hauled into the Death Star you hear a voice over an
intercom say, "Opening the outer magnetic field" and then when it's
finally inside you hear the same voice say "We're closing the outer
magnetic field". Obviously they have some sort of field (magnetic????)
keeping the air in and they must employ some sort of double air
locking system. If they are using fields of some sort then they should
be able to move these fields in and out a bit so as to minimise the
air loss whenever a craft enters and leaves.

WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!

     I JUST REALIZED, all you turkeys, including myself, have missed
it completely.

     Because of the mass of the Death Star it has its own gravity so
the air naturally sticks to the Death Star, like an atmosphere. That
would help immensely with the meteorite problems.

                                                      MAB

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 83 12:49:05-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The plural of Jedi...

     I remain unconvinced that the Jedi that returns is Anakin (or a
single Jedi at all -- see my other message).  After all, he only
returns as a Jedi for < five minutes before he goes off to join the
blue fuzzies.  He didn't even get to do any Jediing.  Maybe someone
from ...!dagobah can answer this?

                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 83 17:20:07-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!packet!cfv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ROTJ misc. spoilers - (nf)

     It is as reasonable to ask how the Ewoks revered 3PO as it is to
ask how the ancient Mexican cultures revered White skinned beared
people (which THEY had never seen, but which allowed the Spanish to
take over the whole area).  Nobody really knows.

>From the dungeons of the Warlock:

                              Chuck Von Rospach
                              ucbvax!amd70!packet!cfv
                              (chuqui@mit-mc)  <- obsolete!

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 83 14:38:26-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!wallace @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Jedi Afterlife - (nf)

Re: Jedi Afterlife

     As I recall, Obi-wan appeared to Yoda in TESB (just after Luke
leaves the planet to go after Vader).  That was when he made the
comment about the "other".  If true, that would seem to disprove the
theory that Jedi live on only in the minds of other Jedi who see them
die, since Luke was no longer there, and Yoda didn't see Obi-wan die.
Any comments?

Dave "There goes another beautiful theory spoiled by a nasty little
fact"Wallace

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 83 11:12:58-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!decwrl!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: net.movies.sw

     No, Mike Knudsen, net.movies.sw is far from dead.  There have
been over 20 articles posted there in the last 3 days.  Please use it
for your pearls of wisdom about ROTJ.

        Mark
        ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!qubix!msc
        ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc
        decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 83 2:33:13-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!utcsstat!laura @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Jedus not singular of Jedi.

     Jedi could always be a genative (possessive case in Latin, more
or less)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1983 1051-EDT
From: Nessus at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re: Leia's Father

Date: 15 Jun 83 23:14:06-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!oz @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Leia's Father

     "Sorry, but if I remember correctly the hologram Kenobi said
"your twin sister."  Biology is not my strong point, but I think if
you have a twin the odds are in your favor that you AND your twin had
the same father."

     I'm not saying that it isn't obvious that Vader is Leia's father,
and the odds are certainly in favor that twins have the same father,
but it IS possible for fraternal twins to have different fathers and
it has happened.

                                -Doug Alan

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1983  15:06 EDT (Fri)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #53

     Two quick random unrelated points:

     One: (Please, no counter flames) I can't imagine anyone thinking
(as Randy Haskin claims to) that Poltergeist is one of the scariest
movies of all times.  As a matter of fact, Poltergeist does not (in my
opinion) portray "unfathomable" evil because there is no evil
portrayed at all, except maybe for the cheap developer who doesn't
move the bodies out of the graveyard.  The dead "souls" are merely
reacting to being mistreated (hardly an EVIL characteristic; scary
maybe, evil no).  I have nothing in particular against Spielberg, but
didn't really get too excited by Poltergeist, though I am one of the
few people I know that really liked Close Encounters of the Third Kind
(which isn't too surprising, since Richard Dreyfuss is easily among my
3 favorite actors).

     Two: If one wants to claim that the fact that the bad guys in the
Pettridge Farms RotJ cookie collection are all chocolate is slightly
racist, then one might as well claim that calling it the "dark" side
of the force is equally racist.  In fact, I would hazard a guess that
the distinction between the "light" and "dark" side of the force is
the distinction Pettridge Farm is making (assuming it isn't purely
coincidence).

Greg

------------------------------

Date: 01 Jul 83 19:14:24 PST (Fri)
From: Marshall Rose <mrose.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Re: Disturbance in the Force, and other topics

     From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!hou5f!hou5e!mat @ Ucb-Vax
Regarding the suggestion that Luke ``Son of Skywalker'' is the most
powerful of all the Jedi -- maybe, if we exclude the Emperor. Once
again, I say that the final battle between Luke and old Orange-Eye was
just TOO physical.  I could have bought it if he just STOOD and threw
sparks, but having him chase Luke around like he was trying to punish
a bad puppy was not really believable.

     I would have thought the battle odd if it had not been done that
way. The dark side of the force feeds on hate, agression, and fear.
Did you see the big E's eyes when he was blasting Luke?  The big E was
MAD and had really worked himself into a keen lather.  I would suspect
that in order to perform really powerful Force-assisted activites,
those relying on the dark side would have to do just that.  This would
be in contrast to those who rely on the light side, such as Yoda, who
use inner tranquility to get the force to do what they want the force
to do.  Yoda works up a bit of a sweat in TESB when he raises Luke's
fighter, but he certainly didn't act like he was excited.

/mtr

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Jul 83 2249-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #6
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jul 83 2249-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #6
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 6

Today's Topics:
     Books - Gene Wolfe & Libertarian and Marxist S.F. (4 msgs) &
               Non-Fiction Book About Science Fiction,
     Discussion - Names in Fantasy & Writing Style & S.F. Music,
     Film - Steven Spielberg & Twilight Zone the Movie (SPOILER)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 16:48:50 PDT (Friday)
From: Haynes.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Wolfe as a new author

"... I remember reading his Fifth Head of Cerberus quite
a while back -- probably mid seventies.  I don't think
New Sun is particularly better."

     True.  But only because Fifth Head of Cerberus was also superb.

        -- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1983 10:51-PDT
From: dietz%usc-cse@USC-ECL
Subject: Libertarian SF

     "The Syndic", just reissued, is considered a classic libertarian
SF novel.  I forget the author(s).

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 83 2:58:09-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!cca!ima!inmet!nrh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Heinlein: Libertarian SF - (nf)

     I suppose it doesn't actually answer the question, but in a
reading list distributed by the Libertarian Party (of Massachusetts)
there is the following item:

     "THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS      1.50    Robert Heinlein
Explicitly libertarian principles are expounded in this entertaining
science fiction novel about a revolution on the Moon comparable to the
American Revolution."

------------------------------

Date: 2 July 1983 04:01 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Marxists and Libertarians Unite

     Back in High School my Marxist friends insisted I read "The Moon
is A Harsh Mistress" since it explained what the revolution was all
about.  If the moon was a prison colony I imagine that would only
strengthen their case.  I am glad to see that the Libertarians and
Marxists have a lot more in common than one might expect.

------------------------------

Date: 2 July 1983 04:02 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: The Marxist Revolution in the U.S.

     The U.S. revolution has been held up as the paradigm for
countless Marxist revolutions.  It wasn't magic; it still isn't and it
doesn't make a very good counter example.

     If my guide there was correct Jamestown was 40-50% black (read
slave) and their were numerous indentured servants including many
ex-prisoners (read Moll Flanders).  I gather the ratios were worse
down in the Georgia plantation.

     I may be wrong but I thought a number of moon-dwellers came down
to earth for negotiations and did moderately well P.R.-wise.
Americans always root for the underdog.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 83 23:50:57 EDT
From: Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: review of nonfiction work about SF

     I just ran into a book by Robert Short, "The Gospel from Outer
Space".  Short's best known book is "The Gospel According to Peanuts".
This book is about the religious implications of the movies "2001",
"Close Encounters of the Third Kind", "Superman I", Star Wars (all 3
films - though it was written before Return of the Jedi, he correctly
guessed the general features of the plot), and "E.T."  One of the
guiding principles of the book is set forth in a quotation from
"Newsweek": "People can croak 'Entertainment!  Entertainment!' until
they're blue in the face. The fact remains that films like 'Close
Encounters of the Third Kind', 'Superman', and even 'Star Wars' have
become jerry-built substitutes for the great myths and rituals of
belief, hope and redemption that cultures used to shape before mass
secular society took over."  (The other major principle of the book is
the Christian Gospel.)  Short believes that writers of most of these
movies were attempting to deal with ultimate issues.  Although most of
the writers are not Christian, and so do not agree with Short on some
items, his view of most of the films is positive.  (The exception is
2001, which he regards as the cinematic equivalent of Nietzsche.)  In
particular, he regards the quality of love in E.T. as being superior
to that present in most churches.  If you read my previous message
about Return of the Jedi, you can guess that his view of it is more
positive than mine.  I guess I can see his point.  Ben Kenobi really
does seem like a Christ figure, and the film is full of religious
implications.  (Short has done a fair amount of homework on the
intentions of the original directors. Lukas did intend the films to
stimulate faith, though it is not said that he intended specficially
Christian faith.)  I still believe that there is a significant
difference between the impersonal Force and the Christian view of a
personal God. The book contains very explicit theology - you should
not read it unless you are willing to read Short's expositions of
Christianity and quotations from Scripture.  His theology is typical
of modern Reformed theology in most respects.  The traditional
elements of Christian theology are present unambiguously, but he does
not believe in the verbal infallibility of Scripture. Interestingly,
he also seems to be a universalist, i.e. he believes that the Force
will not rest until even Darth Vader is saved... ah-hem... that God
will not rest until the whole world is saved. What attracts him to
films such as Star Wars and "E.T." is that they seem to portray the
triumph of universal love more effectively than most churches.  (He
characterizes churches as either depending upon the fear of Hell [on
the right] or too muddled and wishywashy to make any impression at at
[on the left].)  His book is also full of comic-strips: Peanuts,
Ziggy, Beetle Bailey, etc.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1983 1043-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <EE.GDS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: The name space of fantasy fiction ...

     ... is being used up.  I just couldn't help noticing the almost
identicality of ...

     Beren One-Hand  (of The Silmarillion) and
     Berek Halfhand  (of the Covenant trilogy)

     There are other examples of similarity ...

     Valinor (Tolkien) and Balinor (character in The Sword of
Shannara) Durin (father of the Dwarves in Middle-Earth) and Durin
(another Sword of Shannara character)

     Has anyone else noticed this in other SF/fantasy novels.  One
would think we are running out of names to call our characters!

--Gregbo

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1983 1845-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-SPEECH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #1

     Up until about last year I didn't notice writing style more than
"Gee, that story really flowed well". Now I find that how well the
language is used significantly enhances (or detracts from) my
enjoyment. A story that was a pure delight to read was J.O. Jeppson's
(sp?) The Last Immortal (I reccomend it to anyone -- even non SF
types). So as not to offend anyone's tastes, I'll use the Bond books
(at least the early ones) as an example of really atrocious style.
Although the plots are entertaining, I wouldn't want to be known as
the author. To those of you who never notice, try looking at the media
as well as the content.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 83 9:41:07-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxe!rael @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Science-fiction and music

     I believe that Rush's 2112 is based on an Ayn Rand story (the one
about the hero learning about individuality; it starts with him always
talking and thinking as "we", but discovering the meaning of "I"
towards the latter chapters).

                                Dan Vanevic
                                inuxe!rael

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 83 0:09:58-EDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!sheppard @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spielberg - (nf)

     Yup, "Duel" was done by Spielberg, but it starred Dennis Weaver
(of "Gunsmoke" and "McCloud" fame), not Bradford Dillman.

     The very first show that he produced was an episode of the
original "Night Gallery" movie, which starred Barry Sullivan and Joan
Crawford.

Andy Sheppard

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  5 Jul 1983 08:23-PDT
Subject: Twilight Zone the Movie (Semi-Spoiler)

     Greg's contention that the first two episodes of the new Twilight
Zone movie were most like the show is interesting.  I haven't seen the
movie yet, but here in Los Angeles a local TV station showed a TZ
marathon on the 4th, and they featured three original TZ episodes
which were remade in the movie.

     These three were the kick-the-can episode, "The Cornfield" (i.e.,
the little boy who turned people into cartoons), and the airplane
episode.  I'd guess that the Vic Morrow episode was never a TZ
episode, though I don't know that for sure.

     So the last two episodes in the movie were actually TZ remakes,
which makes Greg's claim a little strange.

     Incidentally, the short story that "The Cornfield" was based on
is very good.  Anyone remember the title/author?

                                -- Scott --

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jul 83 2056-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #7
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 8 Jul 1983        Volume 8 : Issue 7

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (8 msgs)

























----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1983 0035-CDT
From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@UTEXAS-20>
Subject: Rotj - Golden God *slight spoiler*

     Am I the only one that thinks the wookie would be a better
candidate for and Ewok god? After all he looks like a huge version of
an Ewok, just less cute, older, and more intelligent.

               A Cookie monster fan,
               Doug Good

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 83 12:57:49-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Jedus not singular of Jedi.

     Remember, Luke says "I am a [singular] Jedi knight," therefore
one Jedi is not called a Jedus.  Assuming that were the case, though,
does Jedus mean anything in Latin?

                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 3 July 1983 01:59 EDT
From: David A. Boulton <SPAM @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Etymology of 'Anakin'

     I think you folks are really stretching for this one.  First, the
greek root AN- does mean 'not' or 'without', but the word ANA means
'up', or sometimes 'on top of', 'apiece', or 'again' (and probably
several others).  Secondly, 'kin' goes back through Anglo-Saxon to the
Gothic 'kinu' meaning 'related to' or 'produced'.  It is fairly rare
that such completely unrelated roots end up in the same word (of
course Lucas is free to do whatever he wishes, but to my ear it just
does not sound "real").

     How about -KIN as a diminutive suffix (from the greek -CHEN) ? Do
any of those possible combinations make sense?  I don't see any strong
contenders.

     If you do take -KIN to be 'close relation' or 'to produce', then
the most sensible meaning is 'AGAIN-FATHER', echoing his previous
'shadow' existence as Darth Vader 'DARK-FATHER'.  ANA- meaning 'again'
is not unknown in English, for example 'Anabaptist'.

     Why does Anakin have to 'mean' something?  Lucas threw in some
very nice hidden jokes, but why do people try so hard to make
everything allegorical?  A lot of other interesting names and words in
SW have known derivations (e.g. R2D2 and Wookie), but the don't
\symbolize/ anything.

     Let's hear it for Webster's 2nd Unabridged!
     -- Spam

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1983 1526-CDT
From: CMP.TAYLOR@UTEXAS-20
Subject: Understanding the Force

     I seems to me that everyone is missing the essential nature of
the Force.  The problems that people seem to be having with it are of
the type of "Why didn't the bad guys feel Yoda's power" and "Why did
the Emperor have blue bolts and no one else did?"  The lies within the
very makeup and being of the Force.  Remember that it surrounds all
living things and those with training can make use of this power.
Probably not only Jedi, but the Jedi are the ones with the responsible
training.  Both Yoda and Ben stressed the point that the Force Flows
through a Jedi.  He doesn't manipulate it.  A jedi bends the force but
does not break it, so to speak.  No one can "feel" Yoda because, being
such a great master of the Force, he makes absolutely no DISTURBANCE
IN THE FORCE (remember that phrase?)  Yoda cares about the power tat
keeps the universe together.  Consequentiality, the Emperor has a
visible manifestation of his use of the Force.  He doesn't give a damn
about the universe at large, only his power.  Many of the other
questions can be answered in this way.  The better a person (creature)
is at using the Force, the closer you would have to be to feel the
disturbance that they caused.  A whole planet dying would cause a
large wave that would travel great distances before the nattural
calmness of the Force would straighten things out.  Try thinking along
these lines for awhile and see if it helps.

                         cmp.taylor@utexas-20

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1983 1511-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: Papa Skywalker's name

Address: Kestrel Institute, 1801 Page Mill Rd., Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone: (415) 494-2233

     Maybe Lucas had a headache and went to two out of three
doctors...

------------------------------

Date: 28 June 1983 08:12 cdt
From: Bibbero.PMSDMKT
Subject: ROTJ and Wagner's "Ring"

     I wonder if anyone else has noted the analogy between "Return of
The Jedi" and "The Ring of the Niebelungen?"  Among many parallels are
the twin brother and sister protagonists (Luke and Leia = Siegmund and
Sieglinde) -- saved from the Ring's incest only by the fortunate
intervention by Han Solo (for a while it was not certain who Leia
preferred).  The magic sword of Siegfried was formerly the property of
his father and could only be repaired by the son after it was broken
by the bad guy (Wotan).  Clearly an analogy to the light sabre which
was repaired by Luke -- actually he made a new one.  Siegmunde and
Sieglinde were members of the "master race," the Volsung, who had
super powers for good (the Force/Jedi).  Although ROTJ borrows a lot
from Lewis Carrol ("Alice") and the "Oz" books, the influence of
Wagner's quadric cycle, including Gotterdammerung and the destruction
of Valhalla ("Death Star", where the bad Emperor rules the world by
force of his spear - Force) is very clear.  Has anyone else noted
these analogies?

     On another topic, I haven't noticed anyone else (not even Jerry
Pournelle) objecting to the computer setup owned by the kid freak in
"War Games."  He had at least 10,000 bucks worth of hardware in his
bedroom -- obviously a custom job and not your run of the mill Apple
or Artari.

Cheers -- Bob Bibbero at HI-Multics  (Bibbero.PMSDMKT)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1983 0500-EDT
From: STRAZ.TD%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Videocassettes of Jedi coming soon...

     AP:(Overland Park, KN): A print of the film "Return of the Jedi"
was stolen from a movie projectionist who was held hostage for two
hours by an armed robber, police said yesterday.

     The projectionist, John J. Smith <really, that's his name!>, told
police the robber confronted him in the parking lot of the Glenwood
Theatres early yesterday and ordered him to return to the projection
room.

     Smith said they entered the projection booth of one of the
theater's screening rooms and the gunman forced him to transfer the
70mm film from large projection reels to smaller transport reels,
which took about an hour.

     Police said the gunman then forced Smith to help him carry seven
cases containing the film outside and stack them in the parking lot.
The gunman ordered Smith to remain in the projection room and not to
call anyone for at least 20 minutes. Then the gunman cut the telephone
line and fled about 2a.m.

     Jim Markley, operations manager for Dickinson Theatres, which
operates the Glenwood, said there would be no interruption in showing
"Return of the Jedi", the third film in the "Star Wars" trilogy,
because a replacement had already been found.

------------------------------

Date: 6 July 1983 07:35 edt
From: Dehn.DEHN at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: ROTJ

1) Geneology

     "Uncle" is not equivalent to "brother of father".  Is there
anything in the story that says that he could not be the brother of
Luke's mother, or the husband of Anakin's sister?  The former would
explain his dislike of Luke's desire for adventure, the latter the
aunt's understanding of it.  (Of course, "uncle" is often used for
non-relatives as well.)

2) Endor

     I only saw the movie once, so I may not be remembering it quite
right, but wasn't the place called "the moon of Endor"?  Does this
imply there is a planet Endor, and that the place we saw was NOT
Endor?  Or is this "of" like the "of" in "City of New York"?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jul 83 0014-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #8
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 9 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 8

Today's Topics:
                       Film - WarGames (3 msgs)















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 July 1983 04:04 edt
From: Bergman.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: WARGAMES (includes spoilers, not that anyone seems to care)

     I enjoyed WARGAMES.  I guess I saw the wrong commercials, because
I went to see a crummy movie about a young hacker/wargamer, not a
movie with a message.  I was very pleased with what I found.  I
certainly don't think the movie is in the same class as Failsafe; I
think it's unfair to compare them.  Perhaps the director and the PR
people, and maybe the producers, are all making the same mistake, and
think that the movie is truly a realistic senario; that's no reason to
come down hard on the movie.  I feel that the characterizations of the
computer people were very well handled, the science was perhaps a
little bit of fantasy; but at least grounded in reality, and after
listening to reagan for all these months, it was nice to see the point
about mutual destruction being made.

     As for the voice over at the end, I think that was just a
dramatic effect, and quite reasonble.  I don't feel that the director
intended us to think that WOPR had a voder connected to it.

     The exploding consoles were annoying, but we just groaned and
didn't let them ruin the movie for us.  As for the payphones and the
touchtone lock...so what?  C'mon folks.  These things work in some
places and times, why not here?  The point was to make obvious to the
audience that the kid was heavily into electronics, security systems,
and breaking them.  And I've seen plenty of 60's phones still
installed.

     I find the problem of WOPR not knowing the difference between a
simulation and a real war far more upsetting than the fact that it had
a modem attached to it.  And the ending was indeed ridiculous.
Especially the fact that the computer played faster and faster.  Not
knowing that no one wins the game of nuclear war is perfectly
reasonable for the computer, it's just a question of having the wrong
people decide what the victory conditions are.  Not knowing that
tic-tac-toe is a draw/tie game is a bit...well, I already said the end
was ridiculous.

     As for the film portraying computers as bad, I though the
villains were the military personnel who were responsible for the
whole problem.  The computer, after all, realized that no one wins a
nuclear war, which is more than can be said for some presidents of the
United States.

Mike Bergman
bergman.softarts@mit-multics

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 17:23:50-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!joe @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: WarGames: A minority opinion

     Of course, it's just a movie.  But if you're going to argue that
we shouldn't critically evaluate it on the grounds that "this is a
science-fiction/fantasy/monster film," well...I don't have any
interest whatsoever in such films.  What you really mean is it's a
B-movie bug-eyed monster film.  And a bunch of reviewers are going
around talking about it as if it weren't.

     Completely disregarding the technology, there was still
absolutely NOTHING believable about WarGames.  The characters were one
dimensional, the plot was silly, the actions had no visible
motivations, and moral was subtly revealed with a sledgehammer.
There's no question of "realism" here.  But if you can't suspend
disbelief, then what's the point in sitting through the movie?

     If the film was really about giving control to human beings
instead of computers, then it did a poor job of demonstrating the
"favored" alternative.  I'm sorry, but the way the human beings in
WarGames behaved, I sure hope that the computers are in charge.  At
least they don't do things without SOME sort of justification.

Yours for a sane society,

joe pallas

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 83 15:36:17-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihnp1!dhp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Wargames

     I think we have become oversensitive to the "computers are bad"
scenario in the mass media today.  Wargames was pretty tame in the
computer paranoia department compared to some films of the past (think
about "Colossus: The Forbin Project", or "Demon Seed", for instance).
Things are getting better.  In Wargames, it was human fallibility, on
the part of Dr. Falkin, rather than the "naturally evil intelligence"
of the machine which caused the problems.

     As for the portrayal of computer security, it can be put down to
cinematic license.  The fact that any truly computer-literate
individual could think of 42 different ways of violating the security
system presented is irrelevant.  It was intentionally simplified for
the mosting computer- illiterate people watching the film, not for us.
What is an obvious hole to us is an EXTREMELY subtle nuance to those
not of the priesthood.

     And finally, why all of the controversy over the attack on the
pay phone?  The point is that if you were out in the hinterlands, and
it was an old style pay phone, and you could get the mouthpiece off,
you don't need the dime.  The fact that such phones don't exist ANY
MORE in the area of the mountain is again irrelevant.

                        Douglas H. Price
                        Analysts International Corp.
                        at BTL IH Naperville, IL
                        ..!ihnp4!ihnp1!dhp (312) 979-6431

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jul 83 0016-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #9
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 9 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 9

Today's Topics:
                       Film - WarGames (6 msgs)
















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1983 12:12 cdt
From: RSaunders.TCSC at HI-MULTICS
Subject: WarGames (SPOILER) [FLAME ON]

WarGames (SPOILER) [FLAME ON]

     Much ado about WarGames centers on the inaccuracies of the
technologies represented in the movie.  I agree that the errors are
unforgivable but I don't feel this impacts the message of the film.  I
feel this movie makes one of the most significant points presented in
a SF film in the last 10 years.  I feel that the film is not about
nuclear weapons as much as it is about computers.  I feel the film is
significant because the overwhelming majority of people in this
country have irresponsibly little knowledge of computers.

     I feel that the film is being damaged immensely by the FACT that
its producers and distributors are among the least computer
knowledgeable people associated with the film.  The marketing and
editing of the film show obvious tampering to make the product
saleable to the "summer profit center audience".  This set of people
provide the mass of money spent in the theaters of the country during
the summer months.  A typical such person is 14 to 19, not actively
involved in other activities, and going to movies with his friends is
the major entertainment he spends money on.  It is unfortunate that
these people are considered by Hollywood to be totally incapable of
rational thought about serious subjects.  As a result the summer film
fare is heavily weighted towards emotional impact in film with little
attention paid to the message if any.

     I feel that the film presents the following scene:

     1) During a test problem sent to the men controlling our nuclear
missles 22% (or some such number) do not fire.  The problems
associated with the fact that hostilities do not start overnight and
these men may have guessed that there was a test going on and assumed
the cancel order was lost are not addressed put I will grant artistic
license on this.

     2) Using this one datapoint, and no doubt numerious statistics
derived from it, a group of war theorists (war-gamers is the usual
word, but is overloaded in this context) try to convince the president
to relinquish his responsibility in this area to a computer program
they have been tinkering with to model global war.  This is a standard
kind of program produced by the folks at RAND and untold other
agencies.

     3) The general who runs the NORAD command center responds to this
notion with utter disbelief, no doubt being a computer user and being
aware that to do such a thing is tantamount to suicide.  Not the
choice of computer programs, but the concept of a system with no
double checks and balances.

     4) For some reason, not explained by the film, the president
conceeds and the WOPR is placed in charge.

     5) A random event, admittedly virtually impossible given modern
software practices, causes the system to fire up some old Trojan-horse
code left in it by a couple of programmers ago.  I feel that the
importance placed upon this event by the media and other SF-Lovers is
really unnecessary.  If we make the presumption that nothing can ever
go wrong, even accidentally, then computers really SHOULD run
everything in the world.  I think that this is a centrally important
part of the film.  Much was no doubt done to make sure that the system
was secure from spies and terrorists, but somebody forgot to tell the
computers at MaBells to disconnect the old dial-up installed five
programmers ago before the work was classified.  The presentation of
this in the film is pure BS but when the summer crowd is considered we
should not have been suprised.

     6) The old program starts to produce a whole flight of bogus
events, to cause the missle system to be armed.  The first impression
of the folks who had the WOPR installed is to let her loose to destroy
the world.  The general realizes that all his checks do not balance
(no IR launch sightings) and holds down the missles.

     7) In the end the program illustrates a full-scale attack, the
general gets on the phone to a real live human at one of the targets
and waits to see if the guy gets fried.  He does not.  At this point
the general knows that the computer is messed up but nobody seems to
be able to talk to it.

     8) The kid talks the old programmer into coming back to help
them.  They get back just in the nick of time, but nobody knows how to
shut it off.  This is another example of a program designed by
non-programmers, the ability to make yourself heard by a program must
never be lost.

     9) The computer starts to crack the secret code for the missles.
The movie had a really good chance to make its point here by having
the machine try the 36 combinations needed to crack it and blowing
everybody's ass to hell.

     10) Instead the film takes the subtiler approach of going through
a search of good approaches and climaxing in the line "Interesting
game, you can't win" (paraphrase).

     11) Luckily the machine has a little hardware failure right
before it finished the search and the program crashes before saying
"Since there is no strategy that wins, lets do the first thing that
came to mind" and blowing everybody's ass to hell.

     I consider it terribly sad that the computer had (as ordered by
the money behind it) to speak English.  The majority of people who saw
it did not even realise that the line "How about a little chess" was
the program being reloaded.  I would have prefered "Gazongous Lispus -
Pointer-to-the-world-list is (NIL)" or something more fit of an AI
machine.  This is simply too bad taht nobody else besides fellow
programmers would have known any better what was going on.

     When I saw the film I was reminded of a true classic of SF film
where these people build a BIG! computer that runs the whole planet
and can make anything from the enormous energy of its furnaces.  They
get themselves all killed off and the people from earth who find the
machine have to blow it up to avoid the same fate.  I am speaking of
"Forbidden Planet" of course.  The film WarGames had the potential to
be as good, and future generations may think so, but it just goes to
show that movie makers, like programmers, cannot afford to practice
their art without support of outside people who are only in the
business for the $$$$$.  Let us show pity on the person(s) who had a
great idea that was wasted in the implementation, we could be in their
shoes.

     I will conclude by stating some of the important messages made by
the movie.  First is that no critically important system should be
centralized without any checks and balances.  Second is that computers
are a tool for doing what you tell them, if you don't understand the
question or might not like the answer don't put a computer making the
decision.  Third is beware the psuedo computer- wizard, the kid is an
excelent example of this.  Just because he figured out the toy system
used by his school to keep grades he assumed he could get any computer
to do his bidding.  This point is downplayed by the terrible scene
where he plays tic-tac-toe and leads some to think that he fixed the
computer.  Fourth is no matter what you tell a computer to do it may
not do it because of hardwre failure, usually at the most critical
moment.  Everybody only made it out alive because the machine went
down before blowing them all up.  Fifth is don't let people who don't
know your application provide you with programs and/or hardware, this
is what got us in this situation in the first place.

        Randy Saunders
        RSaunders@HI-Multics  (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 83 19:48:27-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dwex @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: WarGames: A minority opinion

     I'm really getting sick of all the cuts at WarGames.  You people
entirely missed the point of the movie.  Nobody ever said it was there
to show how great or how dangerous computers were.  The point of the
movie was that nuclear war sucks; there is no way to win, and people
should get that through their thick heads.  Needless to say, I agree
with that point of view.  Sure there were inaccuracies; what movie
doesn't have them?  But I challenge anyone to show me something that
is strictly IMPOSSIBLE (not UNLIKELY, but IMPOSSIBLE).

     I am 18 years old.  Maybe the movie was aimed at my age group,
and that's whay it had such an impact on me.  I don't want to see any
comments saying that I'm just a kid and that I don't know what I'm
talking about.  I have been programming computers for ten years.
(That's right, I started when I was eight years old.)  I am working
this summer as a programmer for I.T.T., so I know my stuff in that
area.  Also, when I was younger, I was very into the military, even
considering it as a career, until several years ago it dawned on me
that war is STUPID.  So I know what I'm talking about in that respect
too.

     I saw nothing in the movie that could NOT have been done.  There
was much that was unlikely (WOPR itself, mainly), but I have seen
programs that "learn".  WOPR was just an extension.  There was nothing
remarkable about David's abilities, either.  Given the money, I could
have done the same things.  And why couldn't WOPR have had that warped
personality?  Dr. Falken certainly did, and he programmed it.

     I have said enough.  I'm sure I will get flamed at for actually
daring to LIKE the movie.  (I thought it was one of the best movies I
had ever seen).  I'm not ashamed of it.

                  David Wexelblat
                  ...decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dwex

P.S. To add insult to injury, I noticed that no one else has mentioned
the two boo-boos that I picked up:

1) When David was given the option of which side to choose in the
game, his response appeared on the monitor before he typed it.

2) The fat general told SAC to scramble two F-16 fighters, and they
showed pictures of two F-15s.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 8 Jul 83 02:30:00-PDT
From: Peter Friedland <FRIEDLAND@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: war games gripe

     Did anybody else catch the phone numbers that our hero's pc was
autodialing in that mythical place called Sunnyvale?  It was 311, an
area code not in use, instead of the actual 408 we know and love.  Now
perhaps that was done on purpose (as 555 is used in TV shows), but
more likely nobody bothered to look it up.

Peter

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 83 20:49-EST (Sat)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund.umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Wargames

     My favorite scene in WarGames is the technician who walks around
WOPR noting down the light show patterns in some sort of diary. I get
this funny picture in my mind of someone doing the same for the RSTS,
RSM-11M, or RT-11 displays on the 11's front panel.

     (RSTS has a set of lights rotating around in a circuit (RSX has
lights that enter from the edges and collide in the middle (RT-11 has
a ball that bounces back and forth and gets longer

                        - Steven Gutfreund

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jul 83 21:36:22 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-bmd>
Subject: WAR GAMES

     Ok...I just saw it and I thought it was really worth seeing.
Humerous (and OK because I get the feeling that it was designed to be
partly so) and it did have a reasonable point (even if it sometimes
did some really stupid things to express it).  It's obvious that they
have the real ARMY philosophy about computer repair (even though it is
supposed to be Air Force).  They are trying to deactivate WOPR, so
what is everyone doing...Taking apart the tape drives!!

     Anybody catch the line on the TV newscast in the movie about the
prophylactic recycling plant?

-Ron

Whopper is a trademark of Burger King.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 83 13:43:51-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!philabs!hogpc!houxn!rb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: WarGames: A minority opinion

     Already was approched by a juvenile hacker who thought the MODEM
program was "neat"....and proceeded to search for hundreds of "SPRINT"
access codes.

     I warned him of the penalties if he were to be discovered...  He
said he'd take his chances, and meanwhile he's saving a fortune on his
data calls.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jul 83 2112-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #10
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 10 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 10

Today's Topics: 
           Books - James P. Hogan (some spoilers) (9 msgs)




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6-Jul-83 18:40 PDT
From: WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2
Subject: James P. Hogan

     First: His latest book is actually CODE OF THE LIFEBREAKERS, Del
Rey Publishing $13.95 (hardback).

     Second: I apologize for the following possibly cryptic comment.
I am about half thru and I feel like I am reading a combination of
BIBLE and DRAGON'S EGG with a side order of evolution.  I haven't read
enough to make a value judgement.  When I finish I will send another
comment.

     Third: THRICE UPON A TIME and THE TWO FACES OF TOMORROW as my
favorite of Hogan's works.

--William Daul  TYMSHARE INC.  Cupertino, Ca.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1983 13:41:11-EDT
From: Scott.Safier at CMU-CS-CAD
Subject: Code of the LifeMaker (James Hogan)

     I have noticed some people have been inquiring about this book.
Although I am only 2/3 finished with it, I think it is very well done.
There are several twists and turns in the plot, and you can't really
be sure of anything.

     Of course, computers play a major role in the storyline
(*spoiler* Hogan has come up with an interesting version of a virus
program which creates a society of Living robots *end-spoiler*).

     All in all, it looks like a real good book.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1983 1657-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: James Hogan

Address: Kestrel Institute, 1801 Page Mill Rd., Palo Alto, CA  94304
Phone: (415) 494-2233

     He's slated to be pro guest of honor at Baycon this fall
(Thanksgiving weekend) in San Jose, in case anyone's interested.

     If last year's Baycon is any indication of what they'll do this
year, I highly recommend this con.

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jul 83 18:46 EDT
From: Sharon Perl <Sharon.UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: J.P. Hogan - correction and mini-review

     James P. Hogan's *latest* book is "Code of the Lifemaker", just
out in hardback. I have also found Hogan's books to be quite enjoyable
and have snatched up every one I could find ever since I finished
"Inherit the Stars" (my first Hogan book). Hogan's books are among the
few for which I am willing to pay hardback prices.

     A brief comment on the new book - avid Hogan readers will find
much of the "good old Hogan style" that they love. However, my initial
impression after finishing the book is that the plot and characters
are not as well thought out (and therefore not quite as enthralling)
as those in his other works.  I'm not sure yet whether it was worth
the $14.00 but it certainly would be worth the price of a paperback.

     I do heartily recommend Hogan to anyone who enjoys "hard sf". In
particular, the "Giant" series ("Inherit the Stars", "Gentle Giants of
Ganymede", and "Giant Star") and "The Genesis Machine" (I think thats
the title) represent Hogan at his very best.

Sharon Perl
(Sharon.UPenn@UDel-Relay)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 8:25:51-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!seismo!aplvax!tad @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: James P. Hogan

     I've read just about all of Hogan's novels (the one exception
being Thrice Upon a Time) and have enjoyed them continually (I'm in
the fifth iteration of the Giants trilogy).

     In regards to Voyage from Yesteryear; it does abound with
libertarian views, some of which I don't necessarily subscribe to. But
the grasp of technology and the impact it can make on out lives is
truly amazing.

     Hogan is perhaps the last of a (sadly) dying breed of SF authors,
pure science fiction in content with believable characters ad plots.
If Hogan doesn't get nominated for a Hugo, something is surely amiss.

                        Terry Dexter (tad @ aplvax)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 83 9:52:48-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!gcsherwood @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan, anyone? - (nf)

     I have also read just about everything by Hogan.  Superb writing.
He gives a rational base for all of the superscience he uses in his
books.  For example, in "Thrice upon a Time", you come away with the
feeling that time travel (for information, anyway) is not only
possible, but probable if the researchers only look in the direction
specified.

     Being involved with computers, I especially liked "The Two Faces
of Tomorrow".  Perhaps the ending is a little cutesy, but the pacing
is so well done that you move from the time that the computer is first
turned on (and everything is well controlled, as it should be), to
where the computer is basically at war with the humans without any
sharp transitions.  Everything follows.

     Finally his "Inherit the Stars" books are very good.  I just
finished rereading "Giant's Star", and was amazed at how all of the
loose ends were tied up (ends that I had not even realized were loose
previously).

     All in all, he is definitely one of the best modern authors.

        - geoff sherwood -
        - U. of Waterloo -

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 22:36:22-EDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!cmcl2!floyd!tekecs!orca!andrew @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: "Code of the Life Maker", a new book by James P. Hogan

     "Code of the Life Maker" is a new book by James P. Hogan,
copyright June 1983, available at present only in hard covers from Del
Rey / Ballantine Books, $13.95.  There's a stack of them in the
Portland Oregon B. Dalton's.

     I've only read the first twenty pages (got it two hours ago) so I
think I can safely synopsize without giving anything away.  About
1E+06 years ago, a robot exploration ship crashes on Titan.  The
robots disembark and begin setting up mining factories, as is their
function.  Bits get somewhat scrambled, and, before you know it, a
full-blown evolution is taking place, as robots with better-evolved
software win out over lesser robots.

     They continue evolving for a million years, then we come along.

     Other than that, the lead character (so far) is a Uri Geller
type, who's got a good piece of the world hornswoggled into believing
in his psychic powers (good descriptions of the obfuscation techniques
that he uses).  Somehow he finds himself booked on the expedition to
Titan.

     Looks like another good Hard SF book in the best tradition of
Hogan.

-- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!teklabs!tekecs!andrew)  [UUCP]
                     (andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)   [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 83 17:54:18-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!philabs!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Hogans Code of the Lifemaker (small spoiler)

     I have just finished James Hogan's latest book, "Code of the
Lifemaker", and thought it was quite good.  The parallels drawn
between our culture and that of the Taloids are very appropriate, and
make for a lot of puns and good satire.  Unlike the rest of his books,
the plot doesn't involve any heavy science (more's the pitty), except
for the alien culture which starts the book out, and that's straight
extrapolation, rather than some kind of "new" theory.

     The hero of the work is a charletan, modeled loosely after
certain well-known psychics currently at work.  Hogan doesn't seem to
have a whole lot of patience with the psychic debunker in this story,
as he is a minor character, and is always being either the foil for
the psychic, or the cat's paw for the real villians.  The
villian-turned-hero theme of the story, however, was well handled.

     The picture drawn of modern society (about 50 years from now) is
depressing.  Are we really headed for rule-by-psychics?  I hope not,
but I can't really refute the possibility, either.

     I pose a few questions: Could the screw-up pictured in the
opening pages really result in the society pictured?  I realize that
Hogan went out of his way to create circumstances that mirror human
evolution, but would it necessarily result in the so-close parallel to
medieval Europe?  Could emotions (the Taloids obviously have them)
evolve from the situation?  What is the nature of the Taloids
"vegetables"?  Siliconeys, perhaps?

                Lyle McElhaney
                ..ucbvax!{nbires|csu-cs}!denelcor!lmc
                ..hao!nbires!denelcor!lmc
                ..brl-bmd!denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 0:26:07-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Hogan review (nonspoiler) - (nf)

     I've thus far received 3 letters regarding James P. Hogan, and
more may be on their way.  Some have asked for my opinion on his
writing, so here it is (no spoilers, I think):

     Hogan doesn't have the smooth style of some of the "greats" such
as Frank Herbert, et.al. (my opinion -- no flames please), but his
works are of the type that I classify as having the world carry the
story rather than the literary style.  Anne McCaffrey & Stephen
Donaldson are of this ilk -- they have good but not excellent writing
style & skill, such that they are quite readable, but they are not as
smooth as those authors whose prose is more pleasing.

     There are other authors whose styles capture us but whose
"worlds" bite the big one.  And there are the greats who do both very
well.  Personally, if I can't have "great," I'll settle for those with
interesting, cohesive worlds over those with only pleasing style.
Perhaps I went a bit far in saying Donaldson's style is "good," but I
happen to think his world is interesting enough (in places) to keep me
reading.  After all, the interesting worlds are what separate F&SF
from other fiction, right?

     Back to Hogan.  As I said, I feel that Hogan's style may not be
the best, but he is a relatively new author, and I think he'll improve
with practice.  Until then, I'll still read everything he comes out
with as long as his worlds are as good as they have been, and they
have been excellent.

     I'm not sure I have a favorite -- it depends on my mood.  I guess
that I'd place them all at pretty much the same level.  For enjoyment,
I really liked The Two Faces of Tomorrow.  One of my favorite (funny)
scenes occurs in the aftermath of the big battle, where one of the
officers tells how Napoleon's officers wore red uniforms to keep the
blood from showing if they were wounded (bad for morale).  He said
something to the effect that "I sure was glad I was wearing brown
pants when we came around the corner and ran into all those (hostile)
robots!"

     For comments on society, I'd have to vote for Voyage from
Yesteryear.  The society of the Chironians is admittedly impossible to
consider evolving here on Earth.  Only in the perfect isolation that
Hogan provides could such a thing come to pass, and even then
conditions would have to be perfect.  I, for one, would really like to
live in such a society.  It seems to carry the notion of Freedom to
its logical extreme, almost as if American society took another step,
from where it is today, of the size it took when it split from
England.

     Hogan even relates the Chironians to the Colonists in the New
World, e.g. in a quote of some visiting British aristocrat commenting
on Americans being "so disgustingly equal."  Such freedom that the
Chironians have is as nearly incomprehensible to us as that of our
forefathers must have been to the British "establishment."  It is
difficult enough to understand that one almost has to reread the book
from the societal viewpoint, rather than from the enjoyment angle.
Yet only once did Voyage seem to lose momentum in the enjoyment
department, and that was because it was difficult to follow the
physics of "tweedles," etc.  But that kind of thing can happen to any
author, and I'd rather s/he at least *try* to explain things, instead
of just making them happen magically.  Even magic has to be explained
to a certain extent (for me)!

     I also really enjoyed the Giants' series, as well as The Genesis
Machine and Thrice Upon a Time (any book that starts over twice as
well as this one does is remarkable).  But I've run off at the
keyboard long enough.  I have to go to the bookstore to see if any new
Hogan books have come out.  Anyone heard of any?

Marion Hakanson
hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jul 83 2118-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #11
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 10 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 11

Today's Topics:
      Books - Patricia McKillip and Orson Scott Card (2 msgs) &
                         Gene Wolfe (2 msgs), 
            Discussion - Fantasy Names and S.F. Styles and
                      Ayn Rand in Music (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  7 Jul 1983 08:46-PDT
Subject: Patricia McKillip & Orson Scott Card
From: turner@rand-unix

     I just finished re-reading the RIDDLE OF THE STARS trilogy and
can heartily recommend it to anyone.  In my opinion it is a classic
work of fantasy, a rival with LotR and Earthsea.

     In flavor, it is more like Earthsea.  It is the story of young
man growing into his power and inheritance in a world threatened by
the onslaught of Evil and the breaking of the balance.  Like most
fantasy, it has magic, monsters and great quests, but it is largely a
story of characters.  McKillip's land is populated with many
interesting and absorbing characters.  Above all, this trilogy has a
sense of wonder.

     McKillip has another book, THE BEASTS OF ELD (?), which is also a
fantasy, and also quite good.  It has a different flavor than RotS,
being a more archaic style.  It is also something of a love story.
But I recommend this book also.

     I'd like to put in a plug too for one of my favorite authors:
Orson Scott Card.  He has written a book that will no doubt stand as
an all time classic in the field of science fiction: SONGMASTER.

     This book tells the story of a young songbird and his rise into
prominence in the galaxy.  A songbird is a singer of a very special
kind.

     This book is science fiction but has such a strong element of
fantasy about it that one walks away totally unaware of the science
fiction element.  It is the fantasy that dominates: the protaganist
has the magic of his voice and of his caring, and that is all that is
needed, though the price is some-times great.  This is a must read
book for all science fiction fans.  I can praise it no higher.

     Another fine book by Orson Scott Card is HART'S HOPE.  This is a
fantasy, but a fantasy that doesn't follow any of the classic
patterns.  The protaganist is a bit like Cain from KUNG FU.  He
struggles always to do the right thing without worry about his
importance or about his power.  He is motivated by a love that colors
all his actions, and not by any personal ambition.  Like SONGMASTER,
this is a tale of sacrifice by a man who gains nothing from his
sacrifice.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 7 Jul 83 15:22:10-MDT
From: Evelyn Mathey <MATHEY@SANDIA.ARPA>
Subject: RIDDLE OF STARS

     Daniel Dern asked about this trilogy.  It is one of my favorites.
So many things have been written that are poor imitations of Tolkien,
that it is great to find a fantasy that has a fresh point of view.
RIDDLE OF STARS has several new ideas.  I particularly like the idea
of the LAND LAW where the ruler of an area has an affinity with his
realm.  These are different in different realms - in HED where the
people are farmers this affinity is literally with the land, he is
aware of the soil, the flow of the rivers, the growth of crops.  In
another realm people don't seem to stay decently dead and the king
must know and control all the ghosts(most of whom are ex royalty and
want to carve up the realm and get their piece).  Another king lives
in a mountain from which all sorts of gems etc are mined.  His
affinity is with the earth, the minerals, the trees.  When the ruler
of a realm dies his/her heir knows because he/she suddenly acquires
the Land Law.  It also makes disputes about who is to be the next king
unheard of.

     The books are extremely sensitive and beautifully written.  The
growth of the main characters as they, and you, become aware of the
unrest in their land is beautifully shown.  This world is not quite as
consistent as Tolkien, but in some ways it is more mature.  Nothing is
wholly good or evil, that which is most evil is oftan most beautiful.
The Prince of Hed does not take a stand with "right" and then fight
for it.  Time and time again he makes choices for or against.  Time
and time again he asks himself what his responsibilities are, if he
must accept a role forseen a thousand years ago, and if the Prince of
Hed, the gentle land of farmers who know nothing of warfare, must
fight for his world.  The trilogy is available in one volumn from the
Science Fiction Book Club.  If you prefer 'hard' sf then this is not
the book for you, but if you are interested in the interactions of
people, how power is gained, lost, and ethically (or unethically)
used, and questions of responsibility to others and to yourself then I
highly recommend it.  It also has interesting ESP/magic types of
growth.

     I also recommend the Science Fiction Book Club.  I do not always
take their monthly selections, but I have found their service
excellent and their prices reasonable.

  ---Evelyn Mathey -------

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 83 12:49:04-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!packet!cfv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SotT comments

     Complaining that Wolfe keeps meandering off onto something
totally unrelated?  Funny, I can't seem to remember where Tom Bombadil
really related into the true scope of LOTR......

     SotT is NOT a fast paced book. It was not written to be a fast
paced book. If you want fast pacing, read Return of the Jedi. It is a
very detailed and imaginative book that tries to envelope you in an
entire culture. It makes you THINK and it involves you in the
material. It is not, as I call it, an easy read. If you are looking
for something that will throw everything at you, find another book.
SotT makes you reach in and work with the book and allows you to build
the reality of Urth with your own feelings as well as what the book
says. I had a lot of trouble getting into SotT at first simply because
there are so few books that make demands on my brain out there that I
had trouble learning how to think and react to a book again. THAT is
what made SotT so enjoyable for me, and so rare in the publishing
industry...

  -- >From the dungeons of the Warlock:

                              Chuck Von Rospach
                              ucbvax!amd70!packet!cfv
                              (chuqui@mit-mc)  <- obsolete!

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 83 18:12:27-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SotT comments

     Despite your claims, Wolfe (that's with an `e' on the end -- were
you even paying attention?) did not make up any words for Shadow of
the Torturer, or the other three books in the Book of the New Sun.
Check the OED if you don't believe me.

     People's reactions to this book are VERY inconsistent.  It seems
that you either think it's the greatest thing since indoor plumbing,
or think it only suitable for disposal by such means.  As for me, and
the Science Fiction Writers of America (givers of the Nebula Award),
we are firmly in the former camp.

======================================
The overworked keyboard of Tim Maroney

duke!unc!tim (USENET)
tim.unc@udel-relay (ARPA)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 10:40:53 EDT (Friday)
From: Heiny.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: similarity ...

'One would think we are running out of names to call our characters!'

     Running out of names?  What about plot ideas?  The Covenant
series is full of borrowings from Tolkein (who borrowed heavily from
Norse myth); Varley's Gaea is a Ringworld; and I won't even mention
aliens (although lately they are less lustful after Earth women than
previously).  There are zillions of multiverses; the calender is
cluttered with time travelers, the brainwaves with telepaths and the
ACM with evil computers/computer scientists.  Fantasies are filled
with undead, magic weapons, cute dragons and imbecile swordfighters.

CHALLENGE:

     Can anybody out there think of a NEW idea (hard science, plot,
character or behavior) that has appeared in popular science fiction in
the last few years (since, say, 1970)?  I don't mean an old one in a
different writing style (eg, "Bug Jack Barron").  These should be
readily available to the masses, not one off private printings or
limited edition fanzine stuff.

FLAME AVOIDANCE NOTICE:

     No, I am not putting down SF!!  I think other forms of literature
are just as imitative, if not worse.

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: 8 July 1983  10:59-EDT (Friday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SR.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: The name space of fantasy fiction ...

     Actually, not.  Most of the names from Tolkien are taken from old
Norse mythology (there's a wonderful segment from, I think, the Elder
Edda which is listing the people attending a feast, including such
names as Gandalf, Thorin, Durin and others.).  I can track down the
references if anybody really cares.

        David Kaufman

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 Jul 1983 08:40-PDT
Subject: Name space / Writing Style / Ayn Rand
From: turner@rand-unix

     It is no wonder that names in LotR and Sword of Shannara seem so
similar: Sword of Shannara is a pretty blatant rip-off of Tolkien.  I
never even finished this book I was so upset.

                         ==================

     Writing style and content are the two sides to a story.  A good
writing style does much to help a book, but it is not a substitute for
content and an interesting story.  Thus a book with content need not
be well written to be enjoyable.  Witness many "classics" from times
when writing styles were far different.  By today's light they are not
well written, yet they continue to enjoy considerable popularity
because of their content.

     A similar situation exists for music.  A well written song
doesn't need a good vocalist for success.  Witness Bob Seger, Bruce
Springsteen, Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, etc., all of who write good
music but sing poorly.

                         ===================

     Also on the subject of music, the Ayn Rand novel that Dan Vanevic
refers to is "Anthem", Ayn Rand's shortest book and the only one I've
ever read.

                        -- Scott R. Turner --
                           turner@rand-unix

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1983 1557-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX>
Subject: SF/Fantasy is using up its name space?

     Actually, Tolkein took many names from Beowolf and other
classical sources (Gandalf, all 13 dwarfs from The Hobbit, and (I
believe) many of the names of heros & supernatural beings in Lord of
the Rings and The Silmarillion) (But I think he made up Bilbo and
Frodo).  So the "problem" of the name space running out is quite old.
Perhaps names are like plots - they've all been used (in one form or
another) and writing a story consists of making up new combinations,
not in inventing an entirely new plot or entirely new names.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 14:25:04-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxa!ulysses!smb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: writing style

     My feeling is that style is important, but I agree -- it isn't
the most critical element in SF.

     When I read SF, I look for concepts first.  Innovative ideas can
rescue an otherwise-bad book.  At the same time, a certain minimum
command of the mechanics of writing is essential, or I'm unlikely to
be able to wade through the thing.  Where I draw the line, though, is
in the other direction: I don't like SF books where the author is
solely concerned with his/her own ideas of "style", and totally
ignores questions of plot, comprehensibility, etc.  Much of the
so-called "new wave" science fiction falls into this category, I'd
say.  (The same, of course, applies to main-stream fiction.  I'm not
fond of style uber alles; I insist that anything I read appeal to me
in *some* other fashion.  As a result, I tend to read much more
non-fiction than non-SF fiction.)

     I do admire writers who do have a strong command of style,
though.  C.J Cherryh is an author who writes very well, but without
sacrificing comprehensibility or plot.  Nevertheless, the appeal of
her novels is in the way she uses the language and her art to totally
grab the reader's attention.

                --Steve Bellovin

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 14:10:05 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Rush 2112

     2112 is indeed based on an Ayn Rand book; they give credit to her
on the album jacket just before the words to the song. The name of the
book is Anthem, and it is the one mentioned where the hero is living
in a totally communal society where everyone says "we" and there is no
first person singular in the language. The hero goes off on his own
and finds an old battery in a sewer and rediscovers electricity. Such
actions as going off alone are prohibited in the culture, and because
of this he is exiled. He travels across the land, finding a girl, and
they find an old building in which there are books. In reading these
books (I believe he has to teach himself to read) he rediscovers first
person singular, and goes back to the city to lead the revolution.

     Neil Pert made some few changes, such as a guitar for electricity
and an alien race to help, bu the essence of the book is there.

/amqueue

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jul 83 2101-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #12
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 12

Today's Topics:
          Books - James Blish & J.O. Jeppson & T.H. White &
                              "Mr. 666",
 General Discussion - Marxists and Libertarians & A Physics Question,
    Film - Dune & Steven Spielberg (2 msgs) & Star Trek (3 msgs),
                        Television - Dr. Who,
                          Conventions - OKON

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 09:19:09 PDT (Thursday)
From: Haynes.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: A Case of Conscience

     I don't agree with your plot analysis of "A Case of Conscience".
You claim that Ruiz-Sanchez decides that the Lithians are in a "state
of sin" because they have "no sense of good or evil".  This isn't
quite the case.  Ruiz-Sanchez' reasons are much more complex. One of
his reasons is that they live a perfectly moral life by force of
reason.  But nothing so simplistic as a lack of the sense of good and
evil.  He is a Jesuit after all.  He concludes that the Lithians are
not "in a state of sin" but rather CREATIONS of the devil.  This is
rank heresy (the heresy of Manichaenism).  What he does about it and
what happens makes for a truly interesting and thought provoking story
on the nature of faith and reality.

        -- Charles

PS. His Black Easter is pretty scary too.  Can anyone tell me where I
can find "Dr. Mirabilis"?

------------------------------

Date: Fri 8 Jul 83 05:59:20-EDT
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: J.O. Jeppson.

     I remember reading somewhere (I have no idea where) that Jeppson
is Asimov's wife. No, really. I think it was Asimov who said this.
Does anyone know if this is the case, or Asimov was putting us on, or
I'm completely off, etc?

                        jacob@cmu-cs-c

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 83 14:50:47-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!packet!cfv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Once and Future King

     For those who like books like Shadow of the Torturer and the
Tolkien series, I have been reading T.H. White's 'The Once and Future
King' and recommend it as highly as I do the Urth books. For those
that don't know, it is the story of King Arthur and Camelot ('Its only
a model.' 'Shh!') and is a very good piece of fiction. There is a
companion book 'The Last Book of Merlyn' that I am looking forward to.

     This brings up a very interesting question. How many versions of
Camelot have been done? I can think of some of the more obvious ones,
such as 'Camelot' the movie and play (the play was done last fall by
Richard Harris for HBO and was fantastic) and 'Monty Python and the
Holy Grail'. The new book 'Mists of Avalon' tells the story of Arthur
from the point of Guenever. If you can think of other variations of
the Camelot history, let me know. Replies probably should come to me,
and I will summarize, just to keep the volume down...

-- >From the dungeons of the Warlock:

                              Chuck Von Rospach
                              ucbvax!amd70!packet!cfv
                              (chuqui@mit-mc)  <- obsolete!

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 83 09:33:25 EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C>
Subject: "666 paranoia"

     I've run across this guy Relfe myself, or at least his ideas, in
a piece of "Messianic Jewish" literature that found its way into my
mailbox.  Much is made of the fact that IBM's supermarket
point-of-sale terminals are model 3666, obviously tying the world's
largest computer manufacturer with the Powers of Darkness.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 9:22:52-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!packet!cfv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Marxists and Libertarians Unite

     Wait a second! **FLAME**

     As a libertarian, I have to disagree with your contention that
Marxists and Libertarians have a lot in common. Marxism is based on
the belief that the individual gets the greatest benefit by pooling
his work with others for the State (Which is much different than
theoretical or real communism).  Libertarians believe that government
is a neccessary evil that should be limited only to those things that
HAVE to be done by the government. Thats a LOT different, since one
tries to maximize the common good by reducing individuality, and the
other tries to maximize the individual good by minimizing governmental
restraints...

** Flame off **

>From the dungeons of the Warlock:

                              Chuck Von Rospach
                              ucbvax!amd70!packet!cfv
                              (chuqui@mit-mc)  <- obsolete!

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 83 17:05:46 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Poskanzer.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Physics question.

     Are north and south monopoles (theorized to be) antiparticles of
each other?

     Just wondering...

Jef

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 83 14:43:53-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!seismo!rochester!FtG @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: DUNE Inquiry - (nf)

     MY reason for being prejudiced against Dino De is the movie
"Orca- the killer whale". It was about an Orca attacking some people
in a house on a pier. This came out shortly after the big p.r.
campaign that Orcas are harmless (unless you are a harbor seal) and
should be protected rather than hunted. Well not only did the
scientific facts not stop Mr. D-L from making his movie but he had the
gall to go onto talk shows and talk about how dangerous these
oversized dolphins are supposed to be.

                        Save the Cetaceans
                        FtG at Rochester

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 22:01:29-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!microsof!fluke!ssc-vax!uw-beaver!tektronix!jamesm @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spielberg (Duel) - (nf)

     I read the short story that the show was based on in "Playboy",
circa 1967-1969.  I can't remember the author (was it Matheson?).  I
was a sophomore or Junior in HS at the time.

     I particularly remember visions of a hairy arm hanging out of the
window of the truck.  It was suspenseful.

Jim Murphy
...tektronix!jamesm or
...tekcrd!jamesm

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1983 19:05:29-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: re re Speilberg sux

     You seem to have lost track of who said what, or else not to have
bothered sending me a copy of your remarks. To answer your specific
claims, a lot of people know how to scare, and many have done it
without having to invoke the supernatural (consider WAIT UNTIL DARK).
Scaring people is easy; awe (especially for today's jaded audience) is
more difficult to produce. I saw about as much of POLTERGEIST as I
could stomach, and thought it was, at best, slightly above Romero's
...DEAD movies (that mostly courtesy of production values). (Of
course, there are other nightmares that S probably didn't even intend.
At the recent Westercon I met someone from the same town that a former
roommate came from; she said with distaste that it was like a
Spielberg suburb.)

     And as for awesome good in CE3K, come off it! An electronicist
friend in the Air Force said the small ships (if that's what those
loudly heralded flares were supposed to be) behaved like particularly
dumb fighter jocks.  CE3K is a film for the completely credulous,
which is why the parody ("Closet Cases of the Nerd Kind") is so funny.
Someone who sat with me at the premier said their total impression of
the mother ship was "It comes up and it's bigger than the mountain; it
lands and it's smaller." (For a well-written criticism of CE3K, try
Asimov's column.)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 83 12:15:57-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!gatech!arnold @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Future Star Trek Movies

     Star Trek I was a movie with a new script, not borrowing any
specific plot ideas from any of the TV episodes.

     Star Trek II did take an idea from the TV series, with the return
of Kahn and his wrath at Kirk.

     Star Trek III is reportedly being scripted and is tentatively
titled "In Search of Spock." Apparently an all new script that doesn't
borrow from the series.

     I'm wandering if there is a pattern emerging in how they write
Star Trek movies... new, old, new, old, etc.

     If so, after "In Search of Spock", we're due for one which
borrows from the series again?

     In short, are we destined to see

                Star Trek IV

        ********************************
        * THE REVENGE OF HARRY MUDD!!! *
        ********************************

        Donning my asbestos suit,

Arnold Robbins

Arnold @ GATech                   (CS Net)
Arnold.GATech @ UDel-Relay        (ARPA)
...!{sb1, allegra}!gatech!arnold  (uucp)
...!decvax!cornell!allegra!gatech!arnold

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 8:37:48-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxi!wjv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Future Star Trek Movies

Tim:

     There is a BIG difference between being similar (borrowing a idea
or concept) and being based on (such as a sequel).

                      William Vojak (WECo)
                      ihnss!ihuxi!wjv

P.S.  I don't care if secondary smoke is or is not a health hazard. IT
STINKS.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 10:00:29-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!decwrl!qubix!lab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Future Star Trek Movies

     I'm all for it! (Getting rid of 500 Stellas, managing to convince
the androids that he's no longer an irritant...)

     (I'd also like to see the Andrece sisters again!)

Larry Bickford, decvax!decwrl!qubix!lab (net.startrek regular)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 15:49:59-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxn!kah120 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr Who

     The other day I saw a commercial on WFLD (Chicago) for a Whovian
Tour.  The number that was given for information was 1-800-call who.
I tried calling this number but it was always busy.  Can anyone give
me any insight to just what this tour is about.  I myself have never
heard of it before so any information that can be offered is
appreciated.  Also, I remember reading awhile back about the
availability of TARDIS banks at a bookstore somewhere in LONDON.  Well
if that is what you are after, I spotted a few at Paradise Books in
Naperville, IL.  They have a few in stock along with a fair collection
of books and albums.  Their stock is usually small and these items
appear to go fast.

                        Ken Heitke

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1983 0259-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20
Subject: OKON

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Anybody for OKON? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     If any SF-L'ers will be there this weekend (15th-17th), drop me a
line and/or wear a button with an at-sign on it (or draw one on your
membership/name badge).  Or, come to the filking and make your way to
the loudest autoharpist.  (Niven & Pournelle will be fine, and Dickson
will be super as usual, but what I'm really going for is the
concurrent filk con.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jul 83 2110-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #13
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 13

Today's Topics:
             Film - WarGames (5 msgs) (Some Spoilers...)
















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 9-Jul-83 22:20:03 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: Back from the digital limbo...

This is the fun part, where I basically get to just sit back and watch
the flaming packets fly while chuckling softly to myself.  Isn't it
amazing how these discussions take on a life of their own?

It appears that almost everyone is in agreement on a few basic points:

1) Nuclear war is bad.  Golly gee, Mr. Wizard!  I guess we all really
needed "Wargames" to convince us of that.  The person who said that
the message was "driven home with a sledgehammer" certainly hit the,
uh, "nail on the head" (no pun intended) with that one.  I don't
recall any "alternative" solutions being presented by the film,
however.  No doubt after seeing the movie all sides will immediately
disarm, right?  Yeah, sure...  The "anti-nuclear" portion of the
movie's message was about as intelligently executed as the "anti-drug"
messages of "Dragnet" back in the late sixties (a program which still
wins my award for one of the overall most humorous programs ever
produced...)

       Doper: "He just kept saying he wanted to get FARTHER OUT,
              FARTHER OUT..."

       Sgt. Friday:  "Well, he made it.  He's dead."

2) "Wargames" is technically (in terms of real-world representation)
flawed in a myriad number of ways.  Specific arguments about phones
and missiles and such are probably beside the point -- clearly the
producers were not in the least bit interested in accuracy, so long as
enough "genuine" concepts were thrown in that the audience had some
well-known points of reference (e.g. a high school hacker).

By the way, my sources have told me that at one point during
pre-production, the producers apparently *were* trying to get specific
information from at least some persons who understand the realities of
the technology in question.  I'm also informed that as soon as the
producers didn't hear the sorts of answers they "wanted", they simply
ignored the "consultants" and went ahead with the fairy tale...
Unfortunately, the real world situation just wasn't exciting enough
for them or their intended audience.  Oh well, as long as they're
willing to shell out their five bucks...

3) Part of the message of "Wargames" was specifically about computers,
not about nuclear war.  As was nicely pointed out by another person in
the digest, it is this portion of the message which was the most
seriously mangled by the film.  Since the film was released, I've been
semi-systematically asking intelligent people who do NOT work
frequently with computers what they thought about the message of
"Wargames".  THEY are the ones saying that the message was "Computers
are bad."  Remember, virtually everyone reading this digest is already
computer "literate".  We know where the fantasy ends and the reality
begins.  We thusly tend to view the film differently from the person
who really doesn't know the first thing about computers (or, for that
matter, about missile control systems or military communications
networks).  We laugh and groan at the silliness in the movie -- but
there are other INTELLIGENT people out there who don't know any better
and are believing much of that stuff.  Sure, they think it might be
over-dramatized a little, but by and large they figure that it can't
be far off the mark.

I saw a similar situation years ago when I surveyed people regarding
voice-input systems.  I asked them if they thought that, somewhere,
there was a machine that could understand unrestricted English spoken
by anyone without training, and whether or not they thought that
"voice-typewriters" existed.  A majority said, "Sure!  Of course."
"What makes you think so?" I asked.  "Well, I've seen them all the
time in the movies -- like HAL in 2001!"  "Uh, then why don't we see
them in use?" I inquired.  "The government is hiding them so that
secretaries aren't thrown out of work, or (other reasons to hide
them)."  Damn it, the large number of people who answered in this sort
of manner was ridiculous.  The "masses", by and large, just don't know
the difference between fantasy and reality when it comes to
technology.

I'm not going to try defend "The Forbin Project" or "Demon Seed".
Both were laughable.  "Wargames" is causing much more confusion,
however, since it threw in little "pieces" of technological reality
with which people could identify, then proceeded onward to obscure the
meaningful technological message within almost pure fantasy.  I've
already seen numerous stories about reporters running around (based on
nothing more than the film) hassling NORAD about whether or not
"Wargames" was "accurate".

Remember, *we* know the dividing line between the fantasy and reality
in this area, but *most* people, including reviewers, many reporters,
and, yes, many (most?) of our elected representatives, do *not*.

And now, I retire to the digital limbo from which I came, to sit back
and watch as more flames fly...  Ta ta for now.

--Lauren--

P.S.  Oh yeah, regarding that "311" area code business. The code "311"
was, for years, the generic "sample" area code used by most telcos in
advertisements or other places where they needed to show phones with
phone numbers.  The most frequently seen number (used by Bell System)
was (311) 555-2368.  General Telephone, just to be "different", used
(311) KL-5-2368.  Chuckle.

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 83 14:29:28-PDT (Wed)
From: pur-ee!finn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Real Wargames message

     Jacob is a computer that can learn from its mistakes (highly
intelligent!).  Previously, everything that had been taught to him,
indicated that he could win a nuclear war and that it was possible to
do so, because THAT WAS WHAT HE HAD BEEN TOLD!  Because tic-tac-toe
was not on the games list, he had never played it, and never learned
it.  It was the only game on that list that could be easily proven to
be a no win situation, and in this case it was used to show Jacob that
it was possible to have a no win situation, after which he relearned
his nuclear war game looking at it in a new light.  Jacob's whole
purpose was to win; the concept of no-win was brand new to him.  When
asked what the purpose of the game was, he replied: "To win, of
course."  He was learning something new and either delayed the missile
launches because of that or because he was using all of his capacity
to play and learn this new concept, or both.  This is of course, all
speculation, but it does make sense.  The message of Wargames was not
"Computers are bad" or "think twice before giving up control to a
computer", although those may have been part of the overall message.
Rather, it was that "there are no winners in nuclear war"!!!  A very
important message that most people don't seem to understand.  The
whole movie led up to this simple message and put it across rather
effectively (or so i thought).

David Hesselberth,      Purdue University Computer Center
{harpo, decvax, ucbvax} !pur-ee!finn  (or)  !pur-ee:pucc-h:adr

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 12:11:44-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxu!rst @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Real Wargames message

     I think that I have now seen every male name that starts with the
letter 'j'.  The name of the computer in WARGAMES is 'Joshua' not
Jason,Jacob etc. etc.

        Scott Thompson

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1983 20:15:03 EDT (Sunday)
From: Winston Edmond <edmond@bbn-unix>
Subject: WAR GAMES

     RSaunders seemed to feel that the WOPR's missle attack was
accidental.  I didn't get that impression at all.

     WOPR had studied how to fight and win a war.  Part of the problem
was how to start the war.  Although the firing was changed to be under
computer control once the signal had been given, the order to launch
was still in the hands of people.  The whole purpose of the fake
attacks was to provoke the decision makers to order a "retaliatory"
strike.  That would give WOPR a first strike.  By forcing the U.S.
into a series of alerts, the USSR was forced to go on alert itself in
response, and it became difficult then for either side to back off.
This was obviously part of WOPR's strategy.

     It happens that the details of the attack were tied to the game
being played, which no one else had played since the time WOPR had
been put in charge of running things.  WOPR is quite happy to play
with real missles.  In the film, when told it should only be a game,
not real, WOPR says "What's the difference?"  Indeed, since the whole
point is that a good "game" strategy may someday become a real war,
the "game" must be considered as quite real to be sure of accounting
for all factors and ensuring the highest probability of "success."  To
WOPR, by design, it isn't just a game.  From a more mundane viewpoint,
if you write a program to solve a heuristic problem, is it likely your
program will stop to wonder if what it is doing is "just a game" or
will it just take what information it gets and apply it to analyzing
the problem at hand until it meets your built-in criteria for winning?

     Part of the message, if you will, is that if you build a machine
to win against all odds, remember that trying to stop it makes you one
of the odds it may try to overcome.  In this film, the problem was
finally solved, not by defeating the computer, but only by convincing
it that it no longer wanted to do what it had been doing.

 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 83  21:08 EDT (Sun)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: Wargames (picky! picky! picky!)

     First, I liked this film.  (So sue me!)  Some thoughts - some
things have already been mentioned, more not...

     Let's break this up into the positive and negative of what I
saw...

Reasons to be cheerful
----------------------

     1) The Prophylactic Recycling Plant.  Must I say more?

     2) Did anyone notice, outside of the room (in the missile silo)
where the men who "turned the little brass keys" were, a sign to the
effect of:

     "Any dog found urinating on the walls will be shot"

     We're not too sure of the last word, but we're pretty sure of the
rest.

     3) Joshua.  Typical use of the name of a relatives (or close
friends) name as a password...  As was said:

     "It can't be THAT easy."

Reasons NOT to be cheerful
--------------------------

     1) Carrier.  Enough has been said about the total lack of
realism.  Is there any reason they couldn't use 2600hz?  Would that
have any effect on any of the film or audio equipment they used to
make the film?

     2) Baud rate on displays.  Obviously 300 baud modem.  Sigh.  The
only accurate part of what was going on may have been when they showed
the floppies being put into the drives - the whole thing was probably
running on the IMSAI.

     What about the graphics display on David's home setup.  That
monitor looked DAMN MUCH like a BARCO monitor like we use here at
RUTGERS on our GiGi's.  (DEC (TM) VK100 (TM)) - that is an expensive
toy - and then why was it monochromatic?

     3) The flight reservations to Paris.  They were in HER name, not
his.  Then how where they so easily traced?  The "powers that be"
never found out anything about Jennifer, so how did they trace those
reservations to him?

     4) Passwords.  A supposed SECURE system that doesn't even ask for
passwords, let alone echoing them?  Contradiction.  (WHAT was the name
of the character Dabney Coleman played?) When he logged in, or rather
tried to, he typed a LONG number followed by his name - something
along the lines of USERID,NAME or somesuch.  I suppose we can accept
that JOSHUA is "the back door" and didn't require some confirmation?

     5) Votrax.  We won't get into how it seems to follow David
around.  What we will mention is how it preceded the printing on his
screen...

     6) WOPR.  How come no one noticed the "game time" countdown timer
displayed amongst all the pretty lights?

     7) When WOPR calls David, and David breaks the link by hanging
up, why does the constantly updating display of TIME ELAPSED - TIME
REMAINING continue going?

     8) By far the worst offender, the breaking of the launch code.
Allowing for duplication of characters in the code, the LARGEST amount
of possible codes is 36^10.  - It might take WOPR 5 minutes to go
through 360 Billion combinations, but what actually happens is WOPR
goes through about only 360 digits.  That is, digits flicker madly for
about 3 minutes, and then WOPR breaks the code ONE DIGIT AT A TIME.
Now, how long would this have really taken?  And it doesn't even do it
from left to right!  Obviously this was done for the suspense value
("Oh, no! It's gotten 9 of them now!!").  Again, believability goes
flying out the window.

     9) Have you heard the Theme from WarGames on the radio?  An
atypical piece by CSN.  There's only one small problem - the music
didn't appear ANYWHERE in the movie.  Not in opening or closing music,
nor as background music anyplace.  Maybe it was from a scene that was
cut?

     Isn't there SOMEONE who, during the production of a film, runs
CONTINUITY checks?  Someone who would spot some of the glaring errors?
Some of this stuff was stupidity - pure and simple.  Some of this has
to have been done to avoid serious complications in production - the
key concern is do it CHEAP.  But somethings are a litte too hastily
done.

     There must be some hackers out in Hollywood.  Where are they?

Cheers,

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jul 83 2119-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #14
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 14

Today's Topics:
        Film - THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (13 msgs) (SPOILERS!!!)



































----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 83 9:46:36-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!philabs!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Air lock problem on Death Star

     Sorry, I doubt the Death Star has enough gravity to hold a
sufficiently pressurized atmosphere in its bays, and it CERTAINLY does
not have the ability to hold enough atmosphere to protect it from
meteorites!

     (OOPS! Did I just fall for someone's ":-)" ?)

                                        Jim H

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 83 13:09:52-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Air lock problem on Death Star

     The death star doesn't have enough gravity to hold in an
atmosphere?

     Get real!

     What do you think that stuff is that hold them down while they
walk around in the death star or an other ship?

     It may not have enough mass, but it sure has artificial gravity.

     (Which makes one wonder why the thing would be shaped as a sphere
when the artificial gravity seems to point at the south pole in most
of the ship.

     Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1983  14:01 EDT
From: PAO@MIT-XX
Subject: Why Lando didn't take off

     Mike Bergman asks why Lando didn't leave immediately after
discovering that they had stumbled into a trap.  First, they were
already in the trap.  When they pulled up from the attack on the
(still protected) Death Star, they found their path blocked by several
Star Destroyers and TIE fighters, which they then engaged in battle.
Second, Lando still wanted to destroy the Death star.  Admiral Ackbar
ordered the rebel fleet to disengage and leave, but General Calrissian
replied, "We won't get another chance at this [destroying the Death
Star].  We've got to give Han more time."  He believed that Han and
crew would eventually get that shield down.

     As to why the Emperor didn't use the Death Star to wipe up the
rebel fleet, I also posit two reasons.  Immediately upon learning that
the Death Star was operational, General Calrissian ordered the fleet
to engage the Star Destoyers at "point blank range."  This tactic,
presumably, would protect the rebels, as even the Emperor would not
want to destroy his own troops (bad for morale).  In any case, the
destruction of the fleet was chicken feed compared to the Emperor's
real objective, that of turning Luke to the Dark Side.  Even the
Emperor realized Luke's strength with the force, when he told Lord
Vader that "only together can we turn him to the Dark Side."  The use
of the presumed incomplete Death Star was just one facet of the
Emperor's plan.  Rather than simply clean up the "rebel scum" with a
few quick shots of that terrible beam, His Royal Highness preferred to
drag out the affair, to cause even more pain to the young Jedi.

                May the force be with you,
                Pat O'Donnell
                PAO@MIT-MC

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 83 23:54:24-EDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!alberta!stephen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Test

     I do remenber "close the blast doors".

                             Blaine

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 23:01:17-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!philabs!nmtvax!robin @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: In reply to Who's Bigs?

     One more thing: Bigs was better known as Biggs Darklighter, who
shipped out on the Rand Eliptic in the first Star Wars book. There was
a conversation before Biggs left between Luke and Biggs in the book
and Marvel's comic book version.  As you have probably read earlier,
Biggs bit it on the attack on the Death Star in A New Hope(Star Wars).
Biggs and Wedge were Luke's wingmen when Luke was trying for the
thermal exhaust port. Wedge was hit, but merely lost an engine ad
pulled out. Biggs was hit and transformed into tiny bits.

                                  Allan F. Perry
                                  unmvax!nmtvax!robin

P.S. I hear Wedge was around in ROTJ, but how could this be? I thought
he was Luke's gunner in his snowspeeder, who was killed when Luke's
speeder was shot down in the attack on the 'walkers'. If this is so,
then Wedge was slightly crushed.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 83 15:25:43-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!sb1!mb2c!gll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re{venge,turn} of the Jedi

Re: Fred Blonder's comments on shadows...

     And now for something completely different: Since Tatooine has
two suns, a fact which the filmmakers like to show off, how come we
have shadows on Tatooine? We see shadows beneath the sail barge and
the smaller craft, but they're all single. These craft were high
enough off the ground that the shadow should have split into two
distinct shadows.  Just think how much fun (i.e. headaches) the
special effex folks could have had with that one! Since Tatooine's two
suns are of a slightly different color, they could have even made the
two shadows of different colors.

     This reminded me of a TWILIGHT ZONE episode which are now being
rebroadcast by a local independent station.  The plot of the show is
that years ago a ship of Earth people crash on a hot, hostile planet,
surviving only because they have a strong leader who imposes harsh
discipline and because they spend most of their time in caves.  The
conflict comes when a ship comes to rescue them but their leader
doesn't want to give up his control of the group and refuses to return
to Earth.

     The reason I mention this is that early on there is a panorama
shot of the landscape and two suns are shown.  Later on there is a
scene where the leader and the captain of the rescue ship are walking
out of the cave and on to the surface.  They have two distinct
shadows--one strong, one faint.

     I was impressed.  I don't know when these shows were made but it
must have been in the early sixties.  Rod really knew his stuff.  I
wish he was still here.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 83 21:10:21-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!whuxlb!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: On Sabre Crossing - (nf)

     I just noticed something last night when i saw RoTJ last night
for the fourth time (egads!!). Anyway, next time anyone out there
veiws this great flick, look for this and tell me i'm not crazy....

     In the scene where Luke finally succumbs to the Emperors pleas to
"Strike me down", we all see Luke quickly slash down with his sabre
whereupon Darth Vader blocks his stroke. Then we are shown a close up
of the crossed sabres with the Emperor behind.... AHA..

     I thought i noticed that Luke's GREEN sabre was closer to the
Emperor's body than Vader's RED sabre, in other words, the sabres were
crossed wrong in the close up. Has anyone else noticed this???

        ......................................................
        . To You From My Fingers Via The Magic Of Networking .
        .                   Eric  Holtman                    .
        .                 harpo!whuxlb!eric                  .
        .                 WH 1c-352d, x4890                  .
        ......................................................

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 5:50:25-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!cca!ima!inmet!nrh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ROTJ (FLAME, not a spoiler) - (nf)

     One other choice -- Label the spoilers clearly.  Yet another
choice -- DON'T DISCUSS IT (hah!) because such discussions tend to be
inane.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 5:49:18-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!cca!ima!inmet!Anonymous @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ROTJ (FLAME, not a spoiler) - (nf)

     Some sites don't GET net.movies.sw, so holster your
flame-thrower.  We don't have any choice but to but Star Wars
discussion in net.movies.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 10:58:46-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!seismo!ables @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: In reply to Who"s Bigs?

     Wedge was not Luke's gunner in TESB, it was someone named Dack.
He was quite crushed.  Wedge flew with someone named Janson (Jansen?).
Luke and Wedge were the two pilots responsible for bringing one of the
walkers down with the tow-cables.  Luke covered while Wedge flew in
and Janson shot the tow-cable.

     Yes, Wedge was in ROTJ, and you should have heard the audience
when we first saw him.  'Course, that was the first show and it was
full of sci-fi types and "Star Wars Trekkies" as a friend of mine
calls them.  In later weeks when "regular" people who aren't as
fanatical about the saga saw the same scene, it passed right over
them.  Kind of amusing to me, anyway.

-king

...nbires!ut-ngp!ables

 ...eagle!ut-ngp!ables    ables@utexas-11

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 14:03:22-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!seismo!cmaz504 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Leia"s Father

     I thought the scene where Luke tells Leia that Darth is really
his father and that she is his sister was one of the worst in the
movie. At the very least I expected to see some reaction to the idea
that Darth is HER father too. Instead nothing.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 13:44:49-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Twilight Zone shadows vs. ROTJ shadows

     Of course, to get the two shadows on Twilight Zone sets, all you
needed was two Klieg lights.  Shadows of special effects are a whole
nother thing.

                                        -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 10:42:33 PST (Mon)
From: John Mangrich <grich.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: RotJ Rumour

     From a gossip column in the "National Enquirer"-

"Star wars between 'Return of the Jedi' producer George Lucas and
actor David Prowse--the hidden face behind villain Darth Vader's black
mask in the sci-fi trilogy.  Prowse was going to be recognized at last
for years of work when Vader was unmasked in the final scene of
'Jedi'.  But after it was filmed, Lucas replace Prowse with another
actor, Sebastian Shaw, and shot the scene again--because he was
furious at Prowse for tipping the press off to the super-secret plot
of 'Jedi' before its release."

     Anyone have another source to confirm or deny this statement?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jul 83 1723-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #15
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:
               Film - THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (13 msgs)
























----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 83 9:46:36-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!philabs!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Air lock problem on Death Star

     Sorry, I doubt the Death Star has enough gravity to hold a
sufficiently pressurized atmosphere in its bays, and it CERTAINLY does
not have the ability to hold enough atmosphere to protect it from
meteorites!

     (OOPS! Did I just fall for someone's ":-)" ?)

                                        Jim H

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 83 13:09:52-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Air lock problem on Death Star

     The death star doesn't have enough gravity to hold in an
atmosphere?

     Get real!

     What do you think that stuff is that hold them down while they
walk around in the death star or an other ship?

     It may not have enough mass, but it sure has artificial gravity.

     (Which makes one wonder why the thing would be shaped as a sphere
when the artificial gravity seems to point at the south pole in most
of the ship.

     Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1983  14:01 EDT
From: PAO@MIT-XX
Subject: Why Lando didn't take off

     Mike Bergman asks why Lando didn't leave immediately after
discovering that they had stumbled into a trap.  First, they were
already in the trap.  When they pulled up from the attack on the
(still protected) Death Star, they found their path blocked by several
Star Destroyers and TIE fighters, which they then engaged in battle.
Second, Lando still wanted to destroy the Death star.  Admiral Ackbar
ordered the rebel fleet to disengage and leave, but General Calrissian
replied, "We won't get another chance at this [destroying the Death
Star].  We've got to give Han more time."  He believed that Han and
crew would eventually get that shield down.

     As to why the Emperor didn't use the Death Star to wipe up the
rebel fleet, I also posit two reasons.  Immediately upon learning that
the Death Star was operational, General Calrissian ordered the fleet
to engage the Star Destoyers at "point blank range."  This tactic,
presumably, would protect the rebels, as even the Emperor would not
want to destroy his own troops (bad for morale).  In any case, the
destruction of the fleet was chicken feed compared to the Emperor's
real objective, that of turning Luke to the Dark Side.  Even the
Emperor realized Luke's strength with the force, when he told Lord
Vader that "only together can we turn him to the Dark Side."  The use
of the presumed incomplete Death Star was just one facet of the
Emperor's plan.  Rather than simply clean up the "rebel scum" with a
few quick shots of that terrible beam, His Royal Highness preferred to
drag out the affair, to cause even more pain to the young Jedi.

                May the force be with you,
                Pat O'Donnell
                PAO@MIT-MC

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 83 23:54:24-EDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!alberta!stephen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Test

     I do remenber "close the blast doors".

                             Blaine

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 23:01:17-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!philabs!nmtvax!robin @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: In reply to Who's Bigs?

     One more thing: Bigs was better known as Biggs Darklighter, who
shipped out on the Rand Eliptic in the first Star Wars book. There was
a conversation before Biggs left between Luke and Biggs in the book
and Marvel's comic book version.  As you have probably read earlier,
Biggs bit it on the attack on the Death Star in A New Hope(Star Wars).
Biggs and Wedge were Luke's wingmen when Luke was trying for the
thermal exhaust port. Wedge was hit, but merely lost an engine ad
pulled out. Biggs was hit and transformed into tiny bits.

                                  Allan F. Perry
                                  unmvax!nmtvax!robin

P.S. I hear Wedge was around in ROTJ, but how could this be? I thought
he was Luke's gunner in his snowspeeder, who was killed when Luke's
speeder was shot down in the attack on the 'walkers'. If this is so,
then Wedge was slightly crushed.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 83 15:25:43-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!sb1!mb2c!gll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re{venge,turn} of the Jedi

Re: Fred Blonder's comments on shadows...

     And now for something completely different: Since Tatooine has
two suns, a fact which the filmmakers like to show off, how come we
have shadows on Tatooine? We see shadows beneath the sail barge and
the smaller craft, but they're all single. These craft were high
enough off the ground that the shadow should have split into two
distinct shadows.  Just think how much fun (i.e. headaches) the
special effex folks could have had with that one! Since Tatooine's two
suns are of a slightly different color, they could have even made the
two shadows of different colors.

     This reminded me of a TWILIGHT ZONE episode which are now being
rebroadcast by a local independent station.  The plot of the show is
that years ago a ship of Earth people crash on a hot, hostile planet,
surviving only because they have a strong leader who imposes harsh
discipline and because they spend most of their time in caves.  The
conflict comes when a ship comes to rescue them but their leader
doesn't want to give up his control of the group and refuses to return
to Earth.

     The reason I mention this is that early on there is a panorama
shot of the landscape and two suns are shown.  Later on there is a
scene where the leader and the captain of the rescue ship are walking
out of the cave and on to the surface.  They have two distinct
shadows--one strong, one faint.

     I was impressed.  I don't know when these shows were made but it
must have been in the early sixties.  Rod really knew his stuff.  I
wish he was still here.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 83 21:10:21-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!whuxlb!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: On Sabre Crossing - (nf)

     I just noticed something last night when i saw RoTJ last night
for the fourth time (egads!!). Anyway, next time anyone out there
veiws this great flick, look for this and tell me i'm not crazy....

     In the scene where Luke finally succumbs to the Emperors pleas to
"Strike me down", we all see Luke quickly slash down with his sabre
whereupon Darth Vader blocks his stroke. Then we are shown a close up
of the crossed sabres with the Emperor behind.... AHA..

     I thought i noticed that Luke's GREEN sabre was closer to the
Emperor's body than Vader's RED sabre, in other words, the sabres were
crossed wrong in the close up. Has anyone else noticed this???

        ......................................................
        . To You From My Fingers Via The Magic Of Networking .
        .                   Eric  Holtman                    .
        .                 harpo!whuxlb!eric                  .
        .                 WH 1c-352d, x4890                  .
        ......................................................

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 5:50:25-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!cca!ima!inmet!nrh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ROTJ (FLAME, not a spoiler) - (nf)

     One other choice -- Label the spoilers clearly.  Yet another
choice -- DON'T DISCUSS IT (hah!) because such discussions tend to be
inane.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 83 5:49:18-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!cca!ima!inmet!Anonymous @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ROTJ (FLAME, not a spoiler) - (nf)

     Some sites don't GET net.movies.sw, so holster your
flame-thrower.  We don't have any choice but to but Star Wars
discussion in net.movies.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 10:58:46-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!seismo!ables @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: In reply to Who"s Bigs?

     Wedge was not Luke's gunner in TESB, it was someone named Dack.
He was quite crushed.  Wedge flew with someone named Janson (Jansen?).
Luke and Wedge were the two pilots responsible for bringing one of the
walkers down with the tow-cables.  Luke covered while Wedge flew in
and Janson shot the tow-cable.

     Yes, Wedge was in ROTJ, and you should have heard the audience
when we first saw him.  'Course, that was the first show and it was
full of sci-fi types and "Star Wars Trekkies" as a friend of mine
calls them.  In later weeks when "regular" people who aren't as
fanatical about the saga saw the same scene, it passed right over
them.  Kind of amusing to me, anyway.

-king

...nbires!ut-ngp!ables

 ...eagle!ut-ngp!ables    ables@utexas-11

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 14:03:22-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!seismo!cmaz504 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Leia"s Father

     I thought the scene where Luke tells Leia that Darth is really
his father and that she is his sister was one of the worst in the
movie. At the very least I expected to see some reaction to the idea
that Darth is HER father too. Instead nothing.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 13:44:49-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Twilight Zone shadows vs. ROTJ shadows

     Of course, to get the two shadows on Twilight Zone sets, all you
needed was two Klieg lights.  Shadows of special effects are a whole
nother thing.

                                        -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 10:42:33 PST (Mon)
From: John Mangrich <grich.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: RotJ Rumour

     From a gossip column in the "National Enquirer"-

"Star wars between 'Return of the Jedi' producer George Lucas and
actor David Prowse--the hidden face behind villain Darth Vader's black
mask in the sci-fi trilogy.  Prowse was going to be recognized at last
for years of work when Vader was unmasked in the final scene of
'Jedi'.  But after it was filmed, Lucas replace Prowse with another
actor, Sebastian Shaw, and shot the scene again--because he was
furious at Prowse for tipping the press off to the super-secret plot
of 'Jedi' before its release."

     Anyone have another source to confirm or deny this statement?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jul 83 2044-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #16
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:
              General Discussion - King Arthur (2 msgs)
     & Fantasy Names (3 msgs) & Marxism/Libertarianism (2 msgs),
          Books - James Blish & James Hogan & J.O. Jeppson,
            Film - STAR TREK (6 msgs), Barbarella (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 6:11:37-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!utcsstat!laura @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Once and Future King

     For those of you who DISLIKED Shadow of the Torturer and Thomas
Covenant, go out and read The Once and Future King *anyway*. I hated
SotT and TC, but the single funniest thing I can ever remember reading
in my entire life is p 81 of The Sword and The Stone, the first book
of The Once and Future King.

     The Sword and the Stone is for everyone, but the last 3 books are
pretty much for Arturian Legend fans; it gets pretty dry in "the
Ill-made Knight" for instance. I loved it all but then I love the
Arturian Legends ...

Laura Creighton
utzoo!utcsstat!laura

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1983 0041-EDT
From: Randy Haskins <rh at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: Camelot stories

     'Excalibur' directed by Michael Boorman (I think) and starring
Nicol Williamson as Merlin was a story of Arthur and Lance and Gwen
and all the fun things they did.  Of course, the movie was mostly
concerned with the sword, and it started with Uther (sp???), who was
Arthur's father, wielding the sword.  It was entertaining, and as some
knowledgebles I know told me, pretty darn close to the legend.  Other
'stars': Nigel Terry as Arthur and Glynnis O'Connor as Mordana
(Morgana??)

                                -Randy

p.s.  I'm not 100% sure of all of this info, so feel free to correct
me...

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 18:53:10-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!microsof!uw-beaver!cornell!ddw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Names of Fantasy Characters

     Greg Skinner should note that the similarity between names in
Tolkein and in that odious hack work "The Sword of Shannara" is
probably not accidental.  Let's face it: TSoS is a bare-faced ripoff
of Tolkein and so stealing a few names is all of a piece with the
rest.

     As for the similarity between Berek Halfhand and Beren One-Hand,
well, let's be charitable.  The Thomas Covenant stuff is pretty far
from Tolkein and I think we can forgive Donaldson an occasional sin.

                       David Wright

                       {vax135|decvax|ihnss}!cornell!ddw
                       ddw.cornell@udel-relay
                       ddw@cornell

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 9:36:54-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!clyde!crc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Names of Fantasy Characters

     Tolkien got many for his names from the "Elder Edda" and other
Nordic & English sources. Try reading Lin Carter's "A Look Behind The
Lord Of The Rings" (1972).

/crc

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 83 12:58:03-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!cmcl2!floyd!whuxlb!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The name space of fantasy fiction .. - (nf)

     A good point... good examples... WRONG conclusion.....  I don't
think we are running out of names for characters, I just think
everyone has read Tolkein and knows a class act when they see it.

                        Eric Holtman
                        WH 1c-352d, x4890
                        harpo!whuxlb!eric

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 21:42:41-EDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Marxists and Libertarians Unite

     You had rather bizarre "Marxist" friends...

     But self-determination of peoples *is* *very* important.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 83 16:49:18-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!gcsherwood @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Marxists and Libertarians Unite

{Back in High School my Marxist friends insisted I read The Moon is A
Harsh Mistress since it explained what the revolution was all about.
If the moon was a prison colony I imagine that would only strengthen
their case.  I am glad to see that the Libertarians and Marxists have
a lot more in common than one might expect.}

     This is a really neat submission.  It manages to slur both a fine
work of fiction and the Libertarian party on the hard and fast
evidence that Marxist friends (did he say FRIENDS??? ) liked the book.

     Fine piece of deductive reasoning.  Keep up the good work.

        - geoff sherwood -
        - U. of Waterloo -

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 00:04:44 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: A Case of Conscience

     I totally agree with your conclusion.  Unfortunately I must not
have made myself clear.  The plot analyses given in my previous
message are from "The Book of Lists".  They are not mine.  Sorry for
the confusion.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue 12 Jul 83 11:08:06-EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: James Hogan

     While I enjoy Hogan very much, I recently read the "Giants"
trilogy and was bothered by some of the biology.

     1--Why should Minervan biochemistry be compatible with
Terrestrial, to the point of being able to eat each other's food. Are
the terrestrial amino acids the only possible ones?

     2--The self-immunization system that is proposed as the reason
only man developed intelligence is pure pseudoscience, unless Hogan is
talking about autoimmunity. Also, how does he them explain large brain
size and complexity in cetaceans and elephants?

     Also, I wasn't happy with the closed temporal loop in "Giant's
Star". Might not such a loop be the temporal equivalent of a black
hole?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1983 12:45:11-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: J. O. Jeppson

     is indeed Mrs. Asimov II, although I doubt she ever uses the
name. They've been married something like 10 years, now. . . . Her
first SF book, THE SECOND EXPERIMENT, was so awful everyone was asking
whether Asimov had influenced the publisher.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1983 2152-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-SPEECH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #10

     Here's a tidbit that showed up in the August issues of Moviegoer.
Apparently Leonard Nimoy is directing Trek III. So far only Shatner
has signed a contract and it still hasn't been decided if Spock will
be back.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 11:04:37-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!loux!raf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Future Star Trek Movies

     I beg to differ - the first Star Trek movie (read Star Drek) was
indeed lifted from a tv episode. I don't remember the name of the
episode, but in it V'ger was only three feet tall and called Kirk
*the creator*.

                Ron Flannery

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 17:12:50-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxn!okie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Star Trek Movies, Old & New

     This is by way of a reply to Arnold Robbins (not a flame, my good
man).

     Perhaps ST:TMP didn't borrow any specific plot ideas from the TV
episodes, but they were there for a semi-devoted trekkie to see.
Submitted for your approval (sorry, Rod): "The Changeling" (about
Nomad and his human daddy, Kirk), "The Doomsday Machine" (giant
anti-matter club tries to beat its way across the known galaxy), and
"The Immunity Syndrome" (Enterprise-as-virus vs. the big, bad, giant
one-celled thing that eats planets).  All of these were brought to
mind upon my first viewing of ST:TMP.  I don't actually think that the
elements from these episodes were brought specifically to the
movie...but it does make you wonder.  There were (and are) so many
possibilities in the ST universe -- something the TV series tried to
emphasize -- that it seems they could have broken some different
ground.

     Maybe I'm just too critical.  I didn't actually dislike ST:TMP,
but I was disenchanted by it.  Perhaps that made me look at it with
more jaundice than it deserved.

     On future ST movies..."In Search Of Spock" is not the working
title (or the planned title) of the new movie (this from an interview
with Leonard Nimoy, director, in Starlog magazine a couple of months
ago).  It's a joke referring to Nimoy's present narratorial efforts on
the "In Search Of" series.

                Take off the asbestos suit, Arnold,
                Bryan "Beam Me Up, Scotty" Cobb
                BTL, Naperville
                ihuxn!okie

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 83 12:08:03-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Future Star Trek Movies

     Like Hell the first Star Trek movie didn't borrow from the
series!  Didn't you ever see "The Changeling", where a strange space
probe wants to sterilize Earth, but it turns out that it is actually
an Earth-launched probe which has acquired sentience by colliding with
an alien ship and fusing with it?  No similarity there, huh?
______________________________________
The overworked keyboard of Tim Maroney

duke!unc!tim (USENET)
tim.unc@udel-relay (ARPA)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 22:20:20-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!cbosgd!mhuxi!mhuxt!eagle!alice!rabbit!jj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Mudd's Revenge

     Regardless of the accuracy of the original article, I'm all for
the title,

                     "The Revenge of Harry Mudd".

     I think it has the potential to be the best yet, if we have to
continue this series of movies at all.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 83 14:59:18-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!zzz @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Future Star Trek Movies

     Yeah, the name of the probe was NOMAD.

        Not even a "Trekkie",

                -Mike

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 9:31:25-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!clyde!crc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "Barbarella"

     Dino De Laurentiis was an apprentice on "Barbarella".

------------------------------

Date: Mon 11 Jul 83 09:51:41-EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Barbarella

     While catching up with back SF_LOVERS after being on vacation, I
notice that several people have blamed Dino Di Laurentiis for
"Barbarella".  Put the blame--which I wouldn't, since I found it
fun--on Jane Fonda's then- husband Roger Vadim. Dino's not guilty of
this one!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jul 83 2329-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #17
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 Jul 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:
                    Books - King Arthur (3 msgs) &
            J.R.R. Tolkien and Stephen Donaldson (2 msgs),
                      Film - Star Trek (4 msgs),
                      Books - Orson Scott Card,
                 Film - Colossus, The Forbin Project

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1983 11:33:29-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Camelot stories

     The musical CAMELOT was specifically derived from THE ONCE AND
FUTURE KING ---that's why Guinevere is portrayed so nastily.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jul 83 14:28:52 EDT
From: "Charles E. Martin" <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Arthurian Legends

Two outstanding sources:

     Geoffrey of Monmouth's "History of the Kings of Britain" -- which
is SF&F's idea of a history; Geoffrey's credibility with real scholars
is non-existent.  This is a source which Mary Stewart drew upon for
"The Crystal Cave", which I haven't read and don't intend to.

     Very old (14th century?), and reads it.  Fun though.

     Sir Thomas Mallory's "Le Morte d'Arthur" ("The Death of Arthur")
-- which is what most people should think of when they think of
Arthurian legend.  T.H. White mentions Mallory throughout "The Once
and Future King" (including the droll semi-self- reference at the
end), which should have tipped off readers that this source existed,
if their high-school English courses didn't do the job.

     Old (18th century?), but reads extremely well (he wrote it for
the bucks, as I understand it--but I could be mistaken).  Lots of
fun--though be warned: "The Sword in the Stone" is White's invention,
and what you'll find in Mallory will resemble most closely "The
Ill-Made Knight".  But that was my favorite part of "The Once and
Future King", anyway.  (C&S fans, take note!)

     There are Mallory's sources, also, but by this time we're into
the realm of the Master's in Medieval Literature.

     T.H. White's "The Book of Merlyn" -- was a book I found to be
disappointing.  If you really liked "The Sword in the Stone" much more
than the other three books of "The Once and Future King", then you
/might/ go for this.  It gave me a bad taste, though, and semi-spoiled
the atmosphere built up by "The Once and Future King".

    -- CEM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 83 10:47:53 EDT
From: KERN@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: King Arthur

     Here are two more versions of the Arthur legends that are worth
reading:

     ARTHUR REX, by Thomas Berger. This book pretends to be making fun
of the Arthur legends, but still invokes the feeling of awe in all the
right places.  Better than The Once and Future King. (By the way, I
was very disappointed with the Book of Merlyn. The editors made the
right choice in not including it in TOaFK.) I'm looking forward to
rereading Arthur Rex soon.

     LE MORTE D'ARTHUR, by Thomas Malory. This is an ancient
compilation of the Arthur tales, and also invokes the proper awe, but
requires a lot of patience to read. (Especially all the repetitive
jousting, and all the bad things said about Lancelot in the second
half).

-kbk

PS. What does (nf) mean, as used following continuing headers?

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1983  16:44-EDT (Wednesday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SR.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: Tolkien's names

     I've found my source - "Tolkien: A look behind the Lord of the
Rings", a Ballantine book by Lin Carter (the edition I have in front
of me says $1.50, but it has probably gone up).  The quotation I
remembered is from the first book of the Elder Edda, stanzas 9 - 15,
where the names mentioned include 14 dwarves and Gandalf. The book
also contains a discussion of plot elements that Tolkien borrowed (and
usually altered) from various mythologies, and so forth.

        David

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 83 14:29:39 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Thomas Covenant

     I hate to disillusion people, but Stephen Donaldson took A LOT
from Tolkien. There is the people from whom Gandalf takes a prize
horse (I can't remember their name); Covenant takes one of the Ranyhyn
from the Ramen. Ravers are like mobile Balrogs. Sauron has the
Palantir, and can keep track of the Ring like Foul kept track of
Covenant through his boots. And at least one word (that I could find)
is taken directly from Quenya, the language of the High Elves: "orc"
is Quenya for "heart"; "orcrest" is the word for Earthstone.

     I had read the First Thomas Covenant trilogy before I read LotR,
and liked it a lot. Then I read the Ring trilogy and realized how much
was snarfed. I don't know enough Quenya to do a serious study of the
elements of the language that Donaldson took, but I think that was the
most unfair thing he did.

/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1983 0255-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #16

     Actually, thee third Star Trek movie should be:

                   "The Revenge of Mrs. Decker..."

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1983 0717-PDT
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIB
Subject: ST:TMP question

     Why would V'ger refer to itself by that name just because letters
2-4 of the word VOYAGER written on its side were smudged?

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1983 1150-EDT
From: Don Provan at CMU-CS-A
Subject: star trek menagerie episode

     I just saw a rerun of part one of the Menagerie episode of Star
Trek and I saw somthing that puzzled me.  In the flashback sequences
(the ones cut from the pilot), Spock is limping.  Does anyone know why
this is?  Was it supposed to a part of his character that they decided
to do away with in the real series, or did he just hurt his foot on
the set during filming.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 83 14:29:39 EDT
From: /amqueue <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek

     I'm glad there are some people who remember the Original Star
Trek Episodes! I liked ST:TMP, but it was a result of starvation. The
Wrath of Khan was good, I just wish they hadn't cut out some of the
best scenes.  (Which I was lucky enough to see at a convention in St
Louis) Much of the stuff that was in the book and NOT in the movie
originally was in the movie... including a scene where it is *strongly
implied* that Saavik and "Chip" (Kirk's preppie son..I can't remember
his name) have been "learning by doing". Much as I adore Spock, I
think it would be excessively tacky if he came back to life of any
sort.

     And I think that Harcourt Fenton Mudd deserves one last spiel!

/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 83 9:37:14-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!decwrl!flairvax!brunvand @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: More Orson Scott Card

     I too am an Orson Scott Card fan and highly recomend SONGMASTER
as a must-read book. Another fine book of his is A PLANET CALLED
TREASON. The scenario is a planet colonized many years ago by outcasts
from society. Each of the different groups of people have honed the
"skill" that got them exiled to a new level of expertise.  Some very
interesting extensions of power for political exiles, biologists, etc.
Its been a while since I read the book but I remember that I enjoyed
it enough to highly recomend it in particular and Orson Scott Card in
general.

                -Erik
        {...!decvax!decwrl!flairvax!brunvand}
        { brunvand@sri-kl  }

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1983 1135-EDT
From: Don Provan at CMU-CS-A
Subject: colossus, the forbin project

     Excuse me for being asleep, but was there something wrong with
Colossus, The Forbin Project?  I admit that the last time I saw it I
wasn't as in-the-know about computers as I am now, but looking back, I
can't remember any errors beyond the typical movie practice of showing
lots of tape drives rewinding; (but let's face it: it just isn't very
exciting to watch a power on light glowing.)  and I certainly don't
see any reason to be offended by it.  Did I miss something, or have I
just forgotten something?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jul 83 2222-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #18
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 14 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:
                Film - THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (5 msgs)














----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 12 July 1983, 19:34-PDT
From: cwr%SCRC-Tenex@MIT-MC
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #15

Date: 12 Jul 83 1723-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 15

Date: 5 Jul 83 15:25:43-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!sb1!mb2c!gll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re{venge,turn} of the Jedi

Re: Fred Blonder's comments on shadows...

     "And now for something completely different: Since Tatooine has
two suns, a fact which the filmmakers like to show off, how come we
have shadows on Tatooine? We see shadows beneath the sail barge and
the smaller craft, but they're all single. These craft were high
enough off the ground that the shadow should have split into two
distinct shadows.  Just think how much fun (i.e. headaches) the
special effex folks could have had with that one! Since Tatooine's two
suns are of a slightly different color, they could have even made the
two shadows of different colors."

     If anything, this was a continuity problem -- not a special
effects problem.  There was only one scene in the entire sequence
where you see the "real" (full size prop) barge over the Arizona
desert.  This could have been hacked by using a BIG bank of spots all
coming from one side.  As for all the other shots, they were either
model shots matted over real scenes ("plates") with the shadows done
with hand animation -- or they were total miniature shots with model
barges over model desert.  In the latter case it would have been
simple to get double shadows with the studio lighting.

"...  The reason I mention this is that early on there is a panorama
shot of the landscape and two suns are shown.  Later on there is a
scene where the leader and the captain of the rescue ship are walking
out of the cave and on to the surface.  They have two distinct
shadows--one strong, one faint."

     Its amazing what you can do with electric light bulbs...

-c

------------------------------

Date: 12 July 1983 21:08 edt
From: Schauble.HIS_Guest at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Re: "...I'll never see her again."

     Just because Solo was wrong on this doesn't imply very much about
his strength in the Force. I am told that the first preview screenings
showed the Falcon crashing into the Death Star and being totally
destroyed. The audiance reaction was so negative that this was written
out of the film. Solo's line is merely a remenant.

          Paul

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 83 8:19:42-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ROTJ

     In reference to the article concerning who the "Uncle" is.  If
you read the book, you are told that "Uncle Owen" is actually Ben
Kenobi's brother. In the words of Ben Kenobi: "When your father left,
he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew he
would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep you both safe, for as
long as posssible. So I took you to live with my brother Owen, on
Tatooine...and your mother took Leia to live as the daughter of
Senator Organa, on Alderaan. The Organa family was high-born and
politically quite powerful in that system. Leia became a princess by
virtue of lineage - no one knew she had been adopted, of course. But
it was a title without real power, since Alderaan had long been a
democracy. Even so, the family continued to bo politically powerful,
and Leia, following in her foster father's path, became a senator as
well. That's not all she became, of course - she became the leader of
her cell of the Alliance against the corrupt Empire. And because she
had diplomatic immunity, she was a vital link for getting information
to the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing when her path crossed
yours - for her foster parents had always told her to contact me on
Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate.".

                Mark Starner
                Penn State University
                {allegra,burdvax}!psuvax!starner

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 11:41:50-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spherical shape of the Death Star

     A sphere is the logical shape for the Death Star.  The sphere has
the largest volume for its surface area, therefore they get the most
working volume for the station with the least expense in materials.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 83 11:30:31 EDT (Wednesday)
From: Heiny.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: shadows

     Just because there are two luminaries doesn't mean there must be
two shadows.  One sun could be the major light source, while the other
could just sit in the sky and look neat.  Try lighting a match outside
at noon if you don't believe me.

                                Chris

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jul 83 2226-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #19
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 14 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 19

Today's Topics:
               Film - WarGames (8 msgs) (Some Spoilage)













----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1983 1938-EDT
From: Randy Haskins <rh at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: 555 in WarGames

     I noticed the '555'.  That is the prefix for phone-company-type
lines (like information is 1-areacode-555-1212, and repair for a local
area is 1-555-wxyz, etc.)  I suppose they do things like this so that
they don't display a real telephone number, because there are cretins
who are liable to call any number they see because they think it'll be
funny.

                        -Randy

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 9:22:00-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxe!dpa @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: computer name in Wargames

     Scott Thompson was right that 'JOSHUA' was the correct name in
Wargames.  However, 'JOSHUA' was the login id/password used to gain
access to the computer not the name of the computer.  The computers
name was WOPR which stands for something I can't remember.

Dave Allen  BTL IH

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1983 1137-MDT
From: Pendleton@UTAH-20 (Bob Pendleton)
Subject: War Games

     In all the discussion of War Games no one has mentioned the one
thing that bothered me most.  It was easy for me to laugh at most of
the movie, even when I was the only one laughing, but the idea that a
17 year old had immediate access to enough money to buy a plane ticket
was hard for me to accept.  Not to mention wondering where The
Heroines ( I can't remember her name ) parents were when she got on
the plane and flew off to rescue Our Hero ( I can't remember his name
either ).

     Perhaps my world view is truly warped, but it is easier for me to
accept a forgotten phone line than a high school kid with that kind of
cash.

       Bob Pendleton

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1983 16:35:54-EDT
From: Eric.Patterson at CMU-CS-CAD
Subject: WarGames

     ENOUGH OF THE RIPS ON WARGAMES!!!!!  Who the hell is demanding
their money because of 1966 phones?  It's time the record was set
straight.  Here is a quote from the producer of WarGames when asked if
the scenario outlined in the film could really happen,

               "Our primary purpose was to entertain."

     What, a movie made not to be art but to make money?  Yes.  And in
that way, WarGames earned my respect.  Some might find it hard to make
an entertaining movie without overwhelming special effects and car
crashes and mountains crumbling, etc. etc.  This film was entertaining
because of the appeal of some high school hacker doing things we all
sort of wish we could do.  This film is a little bit pretentious at
times, but no more than your average Star Trek episode.  And there's a
theme that comes through loud and clear in the final moments, the
futility of nuclear war.  It's this little message added on top of a
very entertaining plot that makes this film so good.  So enough of
this quibbling.  If someone complains about this film once more, I'll
shove a popcorn box down his throat.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 83 19:26:48-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!will @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: computer name in Wargames

     'WOPR' was indeed the name of the computer, 'Wartime Operations'
something or other, but remember tha Dr. Falkan lovingly referred to
WOPR as Joshua.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 6:31:45-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dwex @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: computer name in Wargames

     "WOPR" stands for "War Operational Planned Response", which makes
absolutely no sense to me and leads to the possibilty that Burger King
was actually a sponsor of the movie.

                        David Wexelblat
                        ...decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dwex

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 13:11:21-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!umcp-cs!aplvax!tad @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Wargames

Re: Steve Gutfreund's remark

     When I was still in the Navy, we had to record what light
patterns showed up when the computers went bannanas and this is fairly
recent vintage military hardware.

                Terry (bailed out long ago) Dexter
                tad @ aplvax

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1983 1329-EDT
From: E Gordon Strong <GS at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #13

RE: Theme from WarGames

     Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!  The tune you hear on the radio by Crosby,
Stills, and Nash has nothing to do with the movie other than the same
name.  It was just coincidence that they came out at (approximately)
the same time.  I have heard several times on the radio that the song
has nothing to do with the movie.  The song is called "Wargames", not
"Theme from Wargames".  It is a good song on its own right and doesn't
need to be tied to the movie.  Maybe it should have, it would have
helped the ailing movie.

Gordon Strong
GS%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC

ps. There IS someone who runs continuity checks on the movie.  Maybe
there should be someone who runs continuity checks on your letters to
keep you from making foolish statements.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jul 83 0137-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #20
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 16 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:
   Discussion - King Arthur and General Fantasy and Names (6 msgs),
                        Books - James P. Hogan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 0744 EDT (Thursday)
From: Mark.Boggs@CMU-CS-A
Subject: Arthur & Camelot

     At least two other retellings of the Arthurian myth come to mind.

     1] A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court by Mark Twain:
This is perhaps my favorite telling of the story and *very* highly
recommended.

     2] Marion Zimmer Bradley's 800 odd page epic (the title slips my
mind): I haven't read this yet; however, all the reports I've received
panned it.

     Other than that Arthur Landis set up a space opera in a series of
books starting with "A World Called Camelot," and Poul Anderson did
something similar in "The High Crusade."  Anderson's work is the
better of the two (at least to my taste) and well worth reading.

     If you really want to know about all the treatments of Arthurian
legend in book form, I recall seeing an advertisement for something
called "The Arthurian Concordance" a couple of years back.  I think it
ran for about $35 and claimed to be a complete listing of Arthur and
his knights in print through the time of its publication.

                                -Mark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jul 83 09:55:26 EDT
From: Stephen Miklos <Miklos@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Malory and Arthur

     LE MORT D'ARTHUR is indeed the primary compilation of arthurian
legend, but it is not quite ancient nor is it eighteenth century.
Malory (I believe) was an elder contemporary of Chaucer's, (fourteenth
century), and le Mort D'Arthur was the first long work to be published
on an English printing press (mid-fifteenth century). Malory is said
to have written le Mort in prison, where he fetched up presumably for
having been on the wrong side in one of the York/Lancaster flip-flops
during the War of the Roses.

     Yet another tremendously charming Arthurian tale written in the
Middle Ages is SIR GAWAINE AND THE GREEN KNIGHT, written by an
anonymous author known only as "the Gawaine Poet" some time before
Malory. It is available in some very readable modern prose
translations, and I particularly recommend the one published by
Penguin.

                               Stephen "the pedant" Miklos

------------------------------

Date: Thu 14 Jul 83 09:09:02-MDT
From: Evelyn Mathey <MATHEY@SANDIA.ARPA>
Subject: Arthur

     Walt Disney's The Sword in the Stone is a very poor version of
the first part of T. H. White's Once and Future King.  The musical
Camelot is, of course based on the second part.  Like many other
readers I was very disappointed in The Book of Merlin.

     While Mary Stewart is not a first class writer (my opinion only)
I found The Crystal Cave to be an interesting book.  It is about the
childhood and early adulthood of Merlin and the part he played in the
conception of Arthur.  This book is followed by The Hollow Hills and
The Last Enchanment.  They are ok - but I have no desire to read them
again.

     Tolkien very deliberatly used northen European names and myths.
He wanted "middle earth" to feel like these myths.  As a philologist
he certainly had access to the material.  Try reading some of his
scholarly non-fiction sometime.

     For those of you who are interested in Welsh, Celtic, etc history
and myths I read a series of five books for adolescents which is
placed in the present (most of the time), but uses these myths and
customs.  It also touches on the Arthur stories.  The series is called
The Dark Is Rising.  Two of these books won the Newbury Award.  I read
the second book first, not realizing that it was part of a series, and
it is better than the first.  If you decide to try these don't give up
on the first book.  I am embarressed that I can't remember the author
or the name of one of the books.  The ones I do remember are Over Sea,
Under Stone, The Green Witch, The Gray King, and The Dark Is Rising.
I got these from the library but will get further info if anyone is
interested.

     Michael Morcook places the second Corum trilogy in a psuedo
Gaelic world.  They are called The Spear and The Bull, The Oak and the
Ram, and The Sword and the Stallion.  Sorry if I have inverted any of
these ( i. e.  it might be The Bull and The Spear).  Obviously, I have
a very bad memory for the titles and authors of books.

     I also am an Orson Scott Card fan, Songbird being my favorite.  I
don't like A Planet Called Treason as well.  To give another example
of how people's taste varies - I enjoyed The Book of the New Sun by
Gene Wolfe, although I read it with a dictionary at my side, I read
the first Thomas Covenant(sp?) book and could't stand it.  I just
couldn't identify with the hero (anti-hero?) and I was bugged by what
I considered almost blatant plagiarism from Tolkien.

-----Evelyn

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1983 0847-PDT
Subject: Legend of King Arthur
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER@USC-ISIB>

     There is a postumous book by John Steinback called "The Acts of
King Arthur and his Knights" that is basicly a transcription of
Mallory's ancient text into the modern idiom.  This was apparently one
of Steinback's unfinished pet projects.  I recommend it over mallory
to all but those who insist on reading Chaucer in the original too.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 17:17:22 EDT
From: SOMMERS@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Arthur and his legends

     First things first.

     Outside of Geoffrey of Monmouth (a really fun book) we do not see
a lot of the Arthurian legend in England until the Tudor time.  Much
of what we now accept as ancient legend is Tudor propaganda to declare
a relatively illegitimate king (Henry VII) illegitimate.  Any legend
(no matter how obscure) relating the Welsh to the English throne was
glorified.  One of the main purposes of this one was to identify Henry
VII as Arthur come back to life from the Isle of Avalon.  The
identification did NOT take, so Henry VIII tried it again.

     We do find some occurences of the Arthurian legend in the French
chansons, these are often closer to being seen as sources for Mallory
(who wrote for the Tudors in the sixteenth century) then Geoffrey of
Monmouth, who identifies Arthur as a Roman, related to Brutus.  I am
not in possesion of my library at the moment, so I cannot give
detailed sources, but translations of these chansons are available in
English translation in paperback.

     Merlin's link with Arthur seems to be mainly a fabrication of
Mallory, Merlin had always had a distinct folklore of his own, which
was used as propaganda by the Welsh in their wars against the English
in earlier centuries.

     The second thing:

     Mary Stewart's books are readable and relatively accurate.  They
are a decent portrayal of Romano-British society.

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 83 11:34:49-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy is using up its name space?

     This one will be of interest only to Moorcock fans.  I was
browsing through Genesis (you know the one, it's a barbaric religious
history associated with Semitic belief) and what should I find in one
of the genealogies but the name Arioch.  I had wondered where Moorcock
got that one from.  If anyone is interested, I'll dig up chapter and
verse.
______________________________________
The overworked keyboard of Tim Maroney

duke!unc!tim (USENET)
tim.unc@udel-relay (ARPA)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1983 2134-MDT
From: William Galway <Galway@UTAH-20>
Subject: James P. Hogan flame

(Flaming and some spoiling here.)

     I found it very interesting to read the glowing reviews of James
Hogan that recently appeared in SF-LOVERS.  My own experience has been
rather different.  Although I realize that different people have
different tastes, I thought I'd point out that I've been VERY
disappointed with Hogan, and talk about why.  I'd prefer NOT to see
replies to this message if they simply say that your tastes differ.  I
would be interested in hearing about works by Hogan (if any) that
don't suffer from the problems I describe here.

     I have a strong interest in "hard" science fiction, so I was
really looking forward to reading Hogan.  The first book I read was
"Thrice Upon a Time", and I thought the book was so BAD that I had to
force myself to get through it.

     I'm a little reluctant to review a book that I can't refer to,
but I quickly dumped my copy after reading it.  Working from memory,
here's what I can come up with that was wrong with "Thrice Upon a
Time".

     As a work of "hard science fiction" this book used the right
buzzwords--quantum black holes, the uncertainty principle, 3 degree
Kelvin black body radiation from the big bang, stuff like that.
However, very little of the science was "hard" enough that you could
check it.  When it could be checked it was wrong.  Well, actually I
can only remember two mistakes, (but that's all I can remember that
was checkable).  One of the mistakes occurs when Hogan spends several
pages in describing a very hairy particle accelerator (used in a
fusion reactor).  Very early in the description he mentions a distance
that the particles travel, how long it takes to travel the distance,
and the fact that the particles are traveling near the speed of light.
If you bother to check, light travels at a very different speed in
Hogan's universe than it does in ours.

     The other mistake relates to how signals travel from future to
past using his magical "time machine" (which sends information, not
physical objects).  Early in the book one of the characters talks
about how the information spreads out from a point at the speed of
light.  My impression is that it looks like this figure:

      .
 ^     . <-- wave front of signal
 |      .
 |       .
Space     .                                     Time Axis
Axis       .<-- signal starts here         Past --->    Future
          .
         .
        .
       .
      .


     So far, so good.  BUT, Hogan makes the point that this all
happens at the speed of light with respect to the "fixed" universe,
and that the Earth is moving quite rapidly with respect to this
universe.  (Presumably, as determined by our Doppler shift with
respect to the background big bang radiation.)  This was supposed to
have some sort of influence on how far back in time you could send a
message, as I recall.  It also shows a complete disregard for the
special theory of relativity.  After all, the speed of light is the
same constant from any inertial frame of reference!

     This sort of stuff wouldn't bother me in something like Star
Wars, but grates terribly in so-called hard SF.  (Although, I must
admit that Heinlein, one of my favorite authors, also does poorly when
it comes to understanding relativity.)  At least as frustrating as the
bad science was the general fuzziness of his "idea" of "time travel",
and his lack of originality, and his failure to give credit for the
ideas.  (The characters seem to think that the idea of time lines is
unique to them!)  The way time is supposed to work, as best as I can
understand, is that there are at least two time axes.  A person's
consciousness flows along the "usual" time axis under normal
circumstances, but sort of jumps along the other axis when you "change
the past".  Anyway, the concept seemed very sloppily conceived to me,
but no more so and not particularly differently from other works of
science fiction that I've read.  (Two that come to mind are "The Time
Tunnel" (not the same as the TV series), by ????, and "October the
First is Too Late" (??) by Hoyle--I thought both of these books were
also pretty bad.)

     What about the characterizations and quality of writing?  I found
these disappointing too.  One of the characters is Scottish.
Sometimes his "accent" is very thick.  More often, he sounds just like
the other characters, the effect is almost comic.  All the characters
talk a lot (too much), and they all sound alike (as a general rule).

     I'd say the high point of the book was the romantic interest:
will he get the girl of his dreams this time around??

     Rather reluctantly, at the suggestion of a friend who loaned me
the book, I also read "The Two Faces of Tomorrow".  I didn't have to
force myself to finish the book, it was OK by my standards, but
certainly not great.  One of the things that bothered me about this
book (and the other) was that I felt like the setting was the early
1960's despite the futuristic trappings.  It certainly seemed odd to
hear characters saying, in effect, "Well, if our super-duper-hyper
computer network starts giving us trouble we can always pull the
plug".  Pull the plug on a system that's presumably responsible for
traffic control, power load balancing, medical diagnosis, airline
reservations, banking records, ballistic computations for space
flights, ...?  I'd call "unplugging" a bit simplistic.

     Well, enough.  My personal decision is to pick up another Hogan
work sometime when I don't expect too much--probably the "Giants of
Ganymede" stuff.  Maybe in the next two years or so.

-- Will Galway

   Galway@UTAH-20
   harpo!utah-cs!galway

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jul 83 0141-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #21
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 16 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:
                    Television - Dr. Who (4 msgs),
      Film - STAR TREK (6 msgs) and STAR TREK SPOILERS (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 83 19:41:58-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!we13!mgweed!kek @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who Convention in Chicago

     Please ignore my previous article under this title.  It seems
that I posted the wrong file.  My apologies.  What follows is the
article I orginally intended to post.  -Kit-

     There is going to be a comic book/Dr. Who convention held here in
Chicago this weekend.  I believe the Dr. Who part is sponsered (put
on) by the NADWAS group.  Tom Baker is reportedly going to be here in
person to give a talk and sign autographs.  Sorry, that is all I know.

                Kit Kimes
                Western Electric Co.
                Montgomery Works
                Aurora, Il. 60507
                ..!lime!we13!mgweed

P.S. I should mention that this weekend refers to July 16 & 17.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 83 19:24:30-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!we13!mgweed!kek @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who Convention in Chicago

From lime!allegra!cornell!decvax!watmath!bstempleton
To: we13!kik
Subject: The Doctor

     Let me know what you find out about Peter Davison shows.  They're
not here yet.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 83 15:14:35-PDT (Wed)
From: npois!hogpc!houxe!3421jrw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Whovian Festival Tour

Event:  Whovian Festival Tour
Date:   Tuesday   July 19,1983
Time:   1:00 to 10:00 PM
Place:  Walnut St. Theatre
        825 Walnut St.
        Phila.  Pa.
Phone:  For tickets and information  (215) 574-3550
Speaker:John Pertwe - former Dr. Who
        Elisabeth Sladen - played Sarah Jane Smith
Program:rare Dr. Who episodes
        talks
        souvenir collecting

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 10:00:20-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!ittvax!wex @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Peter Davidson as Dr. Who

SUCKS!

     I'm sorry -- it's probably not his fault, but GAWD, these new
ones are awful!  Why?  Well, for one thing, it's obvious that none of
the script writers ever saw any of the previous Doc Whos (either that
or they've all had frontal lobotomies).  The first PD episode (which
was first shown in the US at Balticon) I saw had him introduce himself
as "Who.  Dr Who."

     I almost lost my lunch right then and there!  To compound the
fraud, he was wearing this cornball off-white trenchcoat with
question-marks on the ends of the collar!

     The "plot" (and I use the word loosely) of this episode had the
Tardis being pulled backward through time toward the 'first event,' ie
the Big Bang.  But the Tardis was "in danger of destruction" from "an
inrush of hydrogen."  Now as we all know, when the Tardis moves
through time, it is de-materialised, and cannot be affected by
physical things.  This somehow eluded the scripters, though.

     After forcing myself to sit through the half-hour at Balticon, I
swore never to watch another PD episode.  However, last weekend, I
went back on my word, and boy was I sorry!  For lack of better wisdom,
I spent a half-hour watching part of another PD story (I refuse to
call these things Dr. Who episodes).

     The plot was non-existant, and although he had gotten rid of that
stupid coat, he was carrying along three really gorky sidekicks, who
ended up getting more air time than PD did.  Which is probably just as
well, considering that the PD version of Who has NO personality
whatsoever.  No witty repartee.  No clever/crazy ideas.  No suave
assuredness.  AND HE APOLOGIZES.  Davros would die laughing!

     Suffice it to say, it makes me ill just to watch it.  Oh, and
lest I forget, they've changed the theme music, and the new version
sucks teabags.

--Alan Wexelblat
decvax!ucbvax!ittvax!wex

(Doc: Well, there's you, you, you, you, and me. That makes five, so
I'll go alone.

Romana: But why?

Doc: Because they're all unconscious, and because I'm *very* dangerous
when I don't know what I'm doing.)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 July 1983, 20:31-PDT
From: Reynolds at Rand-unix
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #16

"Date: 10 Jul 1983 2152-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-SPEECH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #10

"Here's a tidbit that showed up in the August issues of Moviegoer.
Apparently Leonard Nimoy is directing Trek III. So far only Shatner
has signed a contract and it still hasn't been decided if Spock will
be back. -Joe"

     It HAS in fact been decided.  Principle photography begins August
15 at the Paramount lot in Hollywood.

    Date: 7 Jul 83 17:12:50-PDT (Thu)
"From: ihnp4!ihuxn!okie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Star Trek Movies, Old & New

     "On future ST movies..."In Search Of Spock" is not the working
title (or the planned title) of the new movie (this from an interview
with Leonard Nimoy, director, in Starlog magazine a couple of months
ago).  It's a joke referring to Nimoy's present narratorial efforts on
the "In Search Of" series."

     I also doubt that it will be the release title, but the script
says: "Star Trek III: The Search For Spock".

-c

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jul 83 0:18:13 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-bmd>
Subject: Star Trek

     Ah yes...Star Trek, The Motion Pictiure:

                     Where Nomad has gone before.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1983 0051-EDT
From: STRAZ.TD%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Star Trek IV

     After three super serious ST movies, it'll certainly be time for
an intentionally funny one. Bringing back Harry Mudd is good, but why
stop there? Why not set it on the gangster planet where Mudd's gotten
a piece of the action by opening up a fizzben parlor....

     Come to think of it, aren't the 17.9 years that it was going to
take Cyrano Jones to clean up the space station tribbles just about
up?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1983 0649-PDT
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIB
Subject: could Spock return?

     It seems like the transporter could be used as an all-purpose
repair, healing, rejuvenation, and resurrection device.  If an object
being transported had its "makeup" transformed into energy, wouldn't
that info have to be recorded somewhere, at least temporarily?  If
that was kept after each beaming, and anything happened to the person
or equipment, the damaged/injured mass in question could be run back
through and reassembled in the old pattern.  If it was a person, he
would simply be briefed on the events since that last good beaming
(specifically on what led to his wounding or demise).  It would be
just like restoring lost files from a dump!

     Also, old people could be run through, coming out X years
younger.  Indeed, duplicates could be made of anyone or anything, just
by using an equal mass as the raw material.

     I don't remember for sure, but it seems like one of the animated
episodes brought up a similar concept which would support this idea.
What would be the result on society of such a capability?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 15:13 EDT (Thursday)
From: Denber.WBST@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Star Trek

     "Much as I adore Spock, I think it would be excessively tacky if
he came back to life of any sort"

     Maybe he can come back as a hologram.

                        - Michel

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 14:01:26-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!microsof!uw-beaver!ubc-visi!alberta!auvax!tech @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Future Star Trek Movies

     Regarding Star Trek I, admittedly the movie origional but the
idea of robots reaching new fronteirs of cooperation and creativity is
similar to the plight of Nomad - a simple robot probe with delusions
of grandeur.  Star Trek movies have not yet in my view had a totally
new plot.

     DeForest Kelly once commented some years back (before Star Trek
I) that they couldn't make the movie because they couldn't find a big
enough plot.  He then joked about somebody suggesting Jesus Christ
returning to end the universe and being told that the idea wasn't big
enough.

Richard Loken

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 83 1:04:05-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.crl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Star Trek Movies, SPOILER!!!!!!!

     For whatever it's worth . . .

     At a comic book convention in Chicago, I saw for sale a couple of
looseleaf bound books entitled--"Star Trek III: Return to Genesis."
They were stamped "Confidential," but that could have been a marketing
ploy.  The teaser went basically like this: Romulans discover the
Genesis planet and the fact that it is rich in dilithium.  A landing
party is sent down and discovers Spock's casket, and, lo and behold,
it is empty.  I didn't read any further, because I didn't want to
know.

Charles LaBrec
pur-ee!Physics:crl
purdue!Physics:crl

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 83 23:32:42-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Star Trek Movies, Old & New - (nf)

     In re a posting about the contents of a looseleaf book called
"Star Trek III: Return to Genesis":

     Have you ever heard of the word "spoiler"?!?!?  If this info is
true, you've managed to ruin a great deal of the surprise.  If it's
false, then it's just another pseudo-Star Trek book (and I happen to
think that they are almost worthless).

     Growl, snarl, howl . . .

Tim McDaniel
(UNIX mail: . . . pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel)
(CSNET: mcdaniel.uiuc@RAND-RELAY)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jul 83 2317-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #22
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 20 Jul 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 22

Today's Topics:
                            Administrivia,
               Film - THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (20 msgs)
























----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 83 23:02:56 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Administrivia

     Because of several problems (The Great System Shuffle, Massive
Thunder-Storms <really neat stuff!> and a change in the Mailing
System), SF-Lovers was not published over the last few days.  I
apologize for all who missed it, and all who inquired as to the
status...

     But--we are back!  Back and ready to go!  Prepare yourself for a
new scale of scientific achievement...

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 17:53:02-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!cmcl2!floyd!mat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ROTJ and Wagner's "Ring"

     This is an interesting idea ... could you elaborate on some more
of SW/TESB/ROTJ explaining what you think may have been derived from
where?  But remember, some things just make good story and are
probably much more commonly used than you might think.

                                Mark Terribile
                                Duke of deNet
                                hou5e!mat

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1983 0447-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20
Subject: ROTJ

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ PROWSE and VADER and LUCAS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     The thing in the National Enquirer is drek.

     The scenes using the other actor as the unmasked Vader were NOT
shot later, for Prowse encountered "Anakin" during the regular filming
when he stopped by the studio although he wasn't scheduled for
anything that day.  (He later said to my friend The Ultimate STAR WARS
Fan, whom old SF-L'ers will remember from TESB discussions, that it
was rather disturbing to run into one's own corpse.)

     It is also unlikely that Prowse gave away RotJ's plot.  He had
gained a reputation for a loose tongue when TESB was in the works and
Lucasfilms kept a very close watch on him.  For instance, after
replying to a query at a con as to whether some minor character from
an earlier episode was also in RotJ, that the fellow was, he got a
sharp letter from Lucasfilms threatening legal action.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 10:31:57-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!we13!otuxa!ll1!sb1!sb6!emory!gatech!arnold @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Luke's Gunner

     Luke's gunner was Dak. (sp?) He got shot by a walker and then
crushed under it's foot.

--
Arnold Robbins

Arnold @ GATech                   (CS Net)
Arnold.GATech @ UDel-Relay        (ARPA)
...!{sb1, allegra}!gatech!arnold  (uucp)
...!decvax!cornell!allegra!gatech!arnold

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 15 Jul 1983 08:26-PDT
Subject: Double suns on Tatooine
From: turner@rand-unix

     Both suns could have been near enough to one another in the sky
that only one shadow was cast.  Or one sun could have been below the
horizon.

     In the original SW:ANH, both suns were shown as fairly bright, so
I don't buy Chris's answer.  Could be possible, however, if the stars
were fairly distant from one another and Tatooine had a very eccentric
orbit.  That seems unlikely in light of the consistent weather
conditions, however.

                        -- Scott Turner
                                turner@rand-unix

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 83 18:21:43-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!watmath!jsgray @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Close the blast doors!

     They added echo in the tube (where Luke & Leia swing Tarzan
style) in later Star Wars prints.

"Thirty two times"
Jan Gray

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 10:20:39-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: (Moon of?) Endor

     I think that's right -- the moon's name was NOT Endor.

     They seem to enjoy doing this kind of thing, e.g., where were the
rebels at the start of TESB?  On one of the planets in the Hoth
System.

                                 Jim Heliotis
                                 allegra!rochester!heliotis
                                 seismo!rochester!heliotis
                                 heliotis@Rochester

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 10:42:00-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: nitpiking goof in RotJ

     All this inteligent nitpiking, and nobody mentioned one of my
least favorite goofs in RotJ.

     The absurdity of an entire attack group, who know how many
thousands of people depend on their sppedy success; sitting down and
waiting while two or three of their number go to fight off some of the
opposition, then calmly waiting again while search parties are sent
out for a missing member.

     This is the point where being a "red shirt" (as the trekkies call
them) might have meant some screen time as well, instaed it
graphically proved that only the main characters had any reality
there.

Alice Bentley   ...rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 83 17:31:53-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!steve @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Solos line

     In response to Solo's line, "...never see her again", I think a
better follow-up would have been a scene where Solo has a chance to
see a severly damaged Falcon and go through a "Lando, gee I'm glad
you're back....WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY SPACESHIP??????", scenario.

     Just a thought....

steve

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 83 21:28:58-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!cires!nbires!ut-ngp!ables @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: additional SW stories

     Well, it was bound to happen.  I was in a local bookstore today
and saw "Lando Calrissian and the Mindharp of Sharn" by L. Neil Smith,
published by Del Rey.  Wonder if it's any good, it's brand new,
anybody read it?  I also saw a children's tape and book set entitled
"Mission (or maybe Rebel Mission) to Ord Mandell."  Of course, we
remember Han referring to Ord Mandell in TESB where they had run in to
a bounty hunter.  The script for the tape was written by Brian Daley
(who wrote the Han Solo books and the SW and TESB radio series).  Does
anybody know anything about the information in this thing?  Is it
going to be a forthcoming book?  I'd like to know what happens between
SW and TESB even if it's just Daley's imagination, but I'm not willing
to pay for the kids' tape (not to mention not wanting to be seen
buying it!).  Responses to me, please, if there's anything worth
forwarding, I'll post a summary...

Thanks,

-king

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 83 15:17:32-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!wdl1!spy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spherical shape of the Death Star

     You say that a sphere is the logical shape for the Death Star
because it has the least surface area per volume and therefore
requires less material for the same useful space.  This is not true.
Since the Death Star is solid and not a shell, it would have a fairly
constant ratio of material to useful space.  I would guess that one of
the best reasons for making it a sphere is because it is large enough
to have a significant natural gravity and a sphere would be best
suited structuraly to the pull.

                                Steve Young (spy)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 3:24:40-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: (Moon of?) Endor

     The planet that the Death Star revolved around was "a moon of
Endor".  The planet (Endor) around which it revolved had been long
since destroyed, leaving only the moon.  Don't ask me why.

                        -Read the prolog to the book

                                        -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 15:36:47-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!halle1 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spherical shape of the Death Star

     Spy would never make it as one.  He is wrong on all counts.  The
star is not solid but full of emptyness, so to speak.  Consequently,
the fact that the surface is small relative to the volume is
important.  This is true for all levels of the Death Star, if you
think of it as successive shells.

     Also, there is no significant gravitation from the mass of the
star.  Its size is no bigger than a small planet, and its density is
many orders of magnitude less.  Consequently, gravity is
unmeasureable.  In addition, as you get closer to the center of mass,
the gravitational attraction decreases, reaching zero at the center.
Thus the spherical shape has no measurable effect on the gravitational
fields.

------------------------------

Date: 20 July 1983 01:27 EDT
From: "Kevin T. Trainor,Jr." <MDARNG @ MIT-DMS>
Subject: General Calrissian's options and starship tactics

     Aside from the reasons you gave: everybody knows the bullet beats
a sphere any day of the year. Right, Ender?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 11:44:42-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!utastro!nather @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Double suns on Tatooine

     Tatooine and its two suns form a triple system, for which
stability criteria can be calculated once distances are known.  In the
first installment, they were shown as being of somewhat different
color (one was blue, the other orange/red) but about equal brightness
and apparent size.  This implies:

     1. They should cast double shadows.  I noticed that lack when I
saw SW the first time, but I am particularly sensitive to astronomical
things since it is my racket.

     2. They are close to each other and Tatooine is distant from
both.  For such a system to be stable, Tatooine must be 5-7 times
farther from them as they are from each other.

     3. The red star has begun its inevitable transition to a red
giant, and may, in time, engulf the blue star completely.  If this
figures in the next trilogy my respect for Lucas will increase
considerably.

                               Ed Nather
                         ...ihnp4!kpno!utastro!nather

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 83 3:43:44-PDT (Wed)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!bhayes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ROTJ and Wagner's 'Ring' - (nf)

     Yes.  Which character in ROTJ represents the economy?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 83 3:43:22-PDT (Wed)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!bhayes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Who played Darth Vader's face (spoil - (nf)

     Lip-synched?  Does Darth Vader have lips?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 83 3:42:46-PDT (Wed)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!bhayes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: re:Why the Rebel have problems - (nf)

     In ESB Leia's rank is given when they're in Iceville.  Anyone
remember?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 83 3:41:24-PDT (Wed)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!bhayes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Rotj SPOILER and Flame: Teen market - (nf)

     Sexual overtones and you don't mention the big thingie in the
desert they were going to throw Our Hero into?  Remind you of
anything?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 83 3:41:50-PDT (Wed)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!bhayes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RotJ and who gets to be a hologram - (nf)

0b1: "Luke!  Use the force, Luke."

Luke: "Ben!"

0b2: "Don't listen to him, Luke.  Use the autopilot."

Luke: "Huh?"

0b1: "The force, Luke."

0b2: "Why take his advice, he's dead, isn't he?"

0b1: "Well so are you."

0b3: "Shut up, you guys.  I'm trying to sleep."

&c.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 12:30:31-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!sb1!sb6!emory!silver @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Etymology of 'Anakin'

     What are some of the 'known derivations' of SW names?

        .:

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jul 83 2054-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #23
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 23

Today's Topics:
       Discussion  - King Arthur (7 msgs) & Names in Fantasy &
                      Stephen Donaldson's Style,
        Query - A Call for Writers in a New Role-Playing Game,
             Conventions - NASFIC and the 1986 WorldCon,
                     Question - The SF Book Club

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 83 9:46:29-EDT (Sat)
From: J.C. Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Arthurian legend

     I have four books on the shelf which may be of interest.  The
first (the only hardback book) is 'The Arthurian Legend, An
Illustrated Anthology', selected by Richard Barber, pub. by
Littlefield, Adams & Co. This is an absolutely *gorgeous* book as far
as printing quality, paper, illustrations etc, go., and it contains
extracts from all the major treatments of the legend, through the
Victorian revival (Rosetti, Swinburne etc) and up to the 20th century
with T.H. White. I got my copy through the History Book Club. Of the
other three, thwo are Penguin paperbacks - 'The Mabinogion', which is
a collection of very loosely related Welsh tales, some but not all of
which include Arthur or members of his court; and 'The Quest of the
Holy Grail' which comes from the Old French (I think) and was taken
from a vast compilation know as the Prose Lancelot. The last book is
'Arthurian Romances', a collection of chansons de geste by Chretien de
Troyes, pub. by Dent in London and Dutton in New York.  There are four
chansons included, one of which is directly about Lancelot and the
others about the court life and Gawain.

j.c.patilla

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 83 14:24:46-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Arthur & Camelot

     My apologies if this one has been mentioned before, but another
good series dealing with the Arthurian legends are the three books by
Mary Stewart, written from Merlin's perspective.  The three books are
highly reccommended (sp?); the titles are:

     1) The Crystal Cave
     2) The Hollow Hills
     3) I Forget the Third Book's Title

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 12:04:04-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!asente @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Arthurian Legends

     Both Malory and "History of the Kings of Britain" are excellent
books, but each is quite a bit older than reported.  Malory is about
14th century, and "History" (by Geoffrey of Monmouth) is about 10th
century.  In addition to the Arthur story, "History" contains the
stories of King Lear and of King Coel ("Old King Cole was a merry old
soul...").

     Two more books, both heavy going but worth it, are "Tristan" by
Gottfried von Strasbourg and "Parzifal" by Wolfram von Eschenbach.
(not sure about the spelling of the names) These are more or less
contemporary with Mallory but are much closer to the original source
versions than Mallory.  "Parzifal" is very long and has about a
million characters; a little notetaking as you go along helps a lot so
you can go check out what happened with the characters when you meet
them again 150 pages later.

     "Tristan" is much more romantic (in the modern sense) and
contains a number of derogatory references to "Parzifal", which came
out about the same time.  It just goes to show that cattiness is
nothing new.  Unfortunately "Tristan" is unfinished; however, most
books contain the fragments of "Tristram" by Thomas.  This was
Gottfried's source and most of it has been lost, but between the two
you get the whole thing.  The difference in style between the two is
interesting; while Thomas just basically tells you what happened,
Gottfried goes into great detail about the court and personal
motivations.  This isn't a novel (they weren't invented yet) so it
doesn't go into character development very much, but it's a lot closer
to being one than Mallory or "Parzifal".

     Also, if you're interested in this from a scholarly point of
view, there is a weighty tome called "Arthurian Literature in the
Middle Ages" which has discussions on all these books and many others.
It's big and expensive but quite easy to read.

Have fun,

        -paul

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 9:52:12-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!utcsstat!laura @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: the Book of Merlyn

Re: Giving bad taste and spoiling the atmosphere ...

     I thought so, and I was told by a not-reliable source that T. H.
White thought so as well, and so cannibalised Merlyn and put the good
bits into the Sword and the Stone. He also didn't release Merlyn, and
it was only after his death thath his estate decided to.

     This is all rumour. Anybody out there have the real goods?

Laura Creighton
utzoo!utcssstat!laura

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1983 18:53:37-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: THE HIGH CRUSADE

     Anderson's book is set around 1200, which makes it 700 years
post-Arthur.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 83 0:43:34-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!security!presby!burdvax!bmcjmp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Arthurian Legends

     Sir Thomas Mallory's "Le Morte d'Arthur" is not an 18th Century
work, but a fifteenth century work, and was published by Caxton on
July 31, 1485. The ease of its reading depends on the facility of its
translator.

Barb Puder, burdvax!bmcjmp

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 83 10:00:07-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!packet!cfv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: the Book of Merlyn

     I suggest that you look at the publishers forward to the Book of
Merlyn for the real story on how it came to be lost, found, and
published....

--
>From the dungeons of the Warlock:

                              Chuck Von Rospach
                              ucbvax!amd70!packet!cfv
                              (chuqui@mit-mc)  <- obsolete!

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 16:18:26-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!waltt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy is using up its name space?

     I beleive the name "Frodo" occurs somewhere in Victor Hugo's
"Hunchback of Notre Dame", written a few centuries before Tolkien's
"...Rings" novels.  It has been quite a few years since I have read
"HoND", but I think Frodo was the priest who raised Quasamodo (or
whatever his name was).

     In the late 60's, a friend of mine had a rather trendy rubber
stamp that said "Frodo Lives!".  He stamped it on about every record
album he had at the time.

                          -- Walt Tucker
                             Tektronix, Inc
                             Wilsonville, OR

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 83 10:22:41-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxr!lew @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: fraternal twins with different fathers

     This is freely summarized from "The Greek Myths, Vol. 2" by
Robert Graves.

     Hercules was fathered by Zeus through a mortal woman. Zeus came
to her in the form of her husband, who was away at war. The next night
her husband came back and she conceived by him also. Thus Hercules was
born with a mortal twin.

     His first feat of strength relates to this circumstance. Hera was
annoyed with Hercules's birth and sent two serpents to kill him and
his brother in their cradle. His father and mother awoke to the cries
of the mortal infant, and rushing into the nursery, found Hercules
sitting up laughing and cooing as he strangled a serpent in each hand!

        Lew Mammel, Jr. ihuxr!lew

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 17 July 1983, 00:26-EDT
From: Susan L. Felshin <SR.FELSHIN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: Thomas Covenant, style, and the art of lack thereof

     I read the first three TC books, hoping always that they would
get better ... ah, foolish me.  The most blatant Tolkien ripoff - the
blind guy (I've forgotten the name) who gets turned into an ent.
Really!  I lack the courage to read the next three books, although
many people say they are better.  I wouldn't mind people plagerizing
Tolkien so much, if they would only do it well!  I found the TC books
very poorly written, containing neither style nor convincing or
absorbing plot nor good characterization (in general, that is - a few
characters were ok) nor even pretty English.  The same goes for the
most obvious Tolkien copy, the Sword of Sha-na-na.

     While I'm on the subject: to whoever asked about the importance
of style to a science fiction reader, I find style moderately
important in any type of fiction.  While I can enjoy authors with
mediocre style if their plots and/or characterization are good (e.g.
James Hogan), I am unable to stomach a book with no style whatsoever
(e.g. the Elric books by Moorcock, one of which I read, the others I
skimmed, on recommendation of a friend, whose favorite or nearly
favorite books they are, why, I don't know).  Great style, to my mind,
is alone enough to carry a book through two readings (e.g. Portrait of
an Artist as a Young Man, which otherwise had nothing to recommend it,
if you ask me).

     Has anyone out there read Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers by
Harry Harrison?  This book brings to its ultimate peak the art of
rotten pulp Sci-Fi writing.  A truly excellent and entertaining book.

Sue (Ich moechte ein Einzelzimmer mit Bad am Ersten Stock) Felshin
PaFotSftPoRCD

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 17:27:49 EDT
From: Charles <MCGREW@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Need writers for multi-player adventure

        ATTENTION ADVENTURE FIENDS AND WRITERS MANQUE

     SMAUG, the Simultaneous Multi-user AdventUre Game, is an applied
research project in distributed computing here at Rutgers University.
We are building a software system with centralized database and
distributed intelligence.  Construction of our software is progressing
smoothly.

     However, we are in need of stories, scenarios which include
puzzles that take more than one person to solve.  A simple example:
two players are needed to move a heavy rock to get out of a dangerous
place.  We want the game to have a different sort of puzzle from other
adventure games, based more on cleverness than use of prize objects.

     The only limitations we currently have on story lines is that
they be in a post-holocaust setting based (believe it or not) in or
around the remains of Dayton, Ohio.  We would prefer that violence not
be the only (or best) solution to puzzles.  We intend to implement
some form of intelligent computer played characters (NPCs).

     We need people who are willing to work with an existing group of
story writers to create new plotlines and finish others.

     Please do not send suggestions of the form: "Use the xxx series
of books by yyy, they're great!"  While this may be true, it doesn't
put anything on paper.

     Writer's guide and further info are available by contacting:

                           MCGREW@RUTGERS.

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1983 04:03 EDT
From: "Kevin T. Trainor,Jr." <MDARNG @ MIT-DMS>
Subject: NASFIC and '86 Worldcon Bids: Unsolicited Plugs

One of the bids for the 1985 NASFIC (you know, since the Worldcon is
being exported to the Australian colony, us here in the mother country
got to occupy our time somehow) is down in Austin. Seeing as how the
other two bids are up in the Great Lakes area, I am pushing hard for
Austin since 1) the beer and beef are cheaper and better and 2) there
hasn't been a Worldcon or equivalent there that I can remember.
Likewise for Atlanta in '86. NY and Philly have had their share of
the action already; let's head south in '86 and try out a new scene
for a change!
                                                   -Sarge

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 13:26:51-PDT (Mon)
From: teklabs!lynnef @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Science Fiction Book Club

     Does anyone out there have any recommendations about the SF Book
Club?  Please *mail* all responses to me.  I am primarily interested
in fantasy-type science fiction.

Lynne Fitzsimmons

USENET:  {aat, cbosg, decvax, harpo, ihnss, orstcs
          pur-ee, ssc-vax, ucbvax, unc, zehntel,
          ogcvax, reed} !teklabs!lynnef

CSNet: lynnef@tek
ARPAnet: lynnef.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 22:50:25-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax

     Pocket Books has fired David Hartwell and is dropping the
Timescape books line. There were plans to start a new line (to be
called Starscope Books) which would be run by the Scott Meredith
Literary Agency (SMLA), though these plans have now been dropped.
SFWA claims it stopped the SMLA deal, but SMLA says it ran into an
internal problem that caused them to back out. The future of an SF
line at Pocket Books is up in the air.

     For details, see the Aug., 1983, issue of Science Fiction
Chronicle.

                                Wombat
                                pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jul 83 2111-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #24
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 24

Today's Topics:
               Books - J. P. Hogan (4 msgs) (SPOILERS)
                 Film - WarGames (9 msgs) (SPOILERS)

















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat 16 Jul 83 12:42:17-EDT
From: Mike Inners  <INNERS@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Hogan Time Travel

     As I understood the time travel to function:

Time ---->

S      X  earth at reception
p     /
a    /      signal
c    X-------------------X earth at transmission
e    \
|      \
V        \  signal wave front

     The signal recieved was electromagnetic radiation caused by the
sudden appearance of energy from the future at the reception point.
This radiation attenuated by normal inverse-square laws.  Since the
Earth moved quite a bit relative to the frame of reference the signal
traveled in, beyond a certain time in the past the signal would be
attenuated too much to be detected.  The computer was used to filter
the encoded information out of the background noise.

                        -- Mike Inners

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1983 2205-EDT
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: *** spoiler **** James Hogan's "The Genesis Machine"

***** SPOILER  *******

     Did anyone else wince at the ending of Hogan's "The Genesis
Machine"? The plot is that this Einstein-class physicist agrees to
build the ultimate weapon for the military.  It can detect and destroy
anything on Earth or in near space at the speed of light.  He then
turns the tables on them by programming the control computer to
destroy any sign of offensive military action.  Not a bomb can drop
without it taking notice and disintegrating the plane.  Plus the thing
is programmed to protect itself against attempts to dismantle it.  The
military grumbles a bit, but the world as a whole breathes a sigh of
relief and settles down to centuries of peace.

     We've been complaining about the movie "WarGames", but here are
similar inanities from a man who used to sell computers.  What happens
to this system when it crashes?  How can it be maintained?  How can a
system programmed by one man withstand the assault of all the National
Security Agencies of the world?  Well, see, this guy is so smart that
he's done everything perfectly the first time, without tests or
previous experience at this sort of thing.  Pfui.  If an author who
was that close to the realities of engineering doesn't understand it,
then how can we expect Hollywood types to.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 83 14:55:28-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: James Hogan

     I won't comment on the two problems with Hogan's Ganymede trilogy
that were mentioned (for one thing, the person accused Hogan of
pseudo-science and then asked if a closed temporal loop was the time
equivalent of a black hole), but I did have one big problem with the
second book.  This is a bit of a spoiler, but I can't change the
subject line of a followup, so no flames please.

(SPOILER)

     The ship was out for 25,000,000 years, correct?  That's a pretty
long time.  Isn't it amazing that they came out of their "suspension"
within a decade after the first few traces of their civilization were
turned up by a human.  (It might have been two decades.) That's
something like 1,250,000 to 1 against, using the figure of 20 years.
Even if you say that they would have come out at some point between
22,000,000 and 28,000,000, the odds are 150,000 to 1 against that
twenty-year span.
______________________________________
The overworked keyboard of Tim Maroney

duke!unc!tim (USENET)
tim.unc@udel-relay (ARPA)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 83 17:33:18-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!mcnc!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan flame

     It's a bit ridiculous to accuse someone of using bad science and
then go off into buzzword gibberish yourself.  This has been done
twice with James Hogan books recently, once with someone asking if a
temporal loop was the time equivalent of a black hole, the other
talking blithely about special relativity in a totally inappropriate
context.  If the science were real, then they'd be selling it, not
writing about it.  Give the writers a break.

     Long explanations of "how things work" in science fiction are a
pain anyway.  If the science works today, it'll be obsolete soon; if
it doesn't, then you're just wasting our time with nonsense.  Hogan
and Niven strike the balance here quite well, I think.
______________________________________
The overworked keyboard of Tim Maroney

duke!unc!tim (USENET)
tim.unc@udel-relay (ARPA)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 83 22:12:04-PDT (Tue)
From: cbosgd!res @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: computer name in Wargames

     WOPR stands for War Operation Plan Response.

--
                        Robert Stampfli

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 83 18:05:19-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!finn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Wargames correction...

     Corrections on my wargames article.  The computer's name is
Joshua, not Jacob like i wrote.  I guess I just spaced the name Joshua
and for some reason it came out Jacob.  When asked what the purpose of
the game was, Joshua replied: "To win the game", not 'To win, of
course', like i stated.  What can I say?  I was paraphrasing
(guessing) to the best of my memory and hoping.  Oh well, I can't
always be right.  I stand already corrected and repentant...

     may peace forever reign in netland,
     David Hesselberth, Purdue University Computer Center
     {harpo, decvax, ucbvax} !pur-ee!finn  (or)  !pur-ee:pucc-h:adr

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 83  18:51 EDT (Fri)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: computer name in Wargames

     Wrong!

     Scott Thompson is correct in saying the name of the computer is
`JOSHUA' - that was the name the CREATOR of the system used for it -
and also the name of that persons deceased child.

     JOSHUA, the password, was the mythical "back door" which allowed
access bypassing all the password protections...

     WOPR was the named given to the system by the government - the
official name for the whole control system.

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 83  18:52 EDT (Fri)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: War Games - cash?

     I dunno, I think when I was in highschool I could have raised $50
- and that will get you from New York City to FLORIDA.

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: Fri 15 Jul 83 18:59:20-EDT
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Wargames and cash

     Sorry, but I and a lot of my working friends in high school could
have bought plane tickets from 15 yrs on. On the other hand, we didn't
blow mega bucks on fancy computer equipment. Still, a foolish
complaint.

                        Jacob

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 9:19:18-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxw!rtf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Back from the digital limbo... the "Wargames" flames
Subject: continue...

Lauren,

     I won't even begin to argue every point in your latest article
but I do disagree with your statement that no "alternative" was
presented to nuclear war.  I believe the message was quite clear at
the end of the movie when "joshua" said:

"... a strange game, the only winning move is not to play."

     This means, if you want to win a nuclear war, don't have one.

                                Sparrow

p.s. I know I have poured gasoline on the fire!

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 83 14:32:00-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!ddw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Yet another War Games flaw

From: ddw (David Wright)
To: net-sf-lovers

     This one just occurred to me last night and it's something that
\wasn't/ in the movie and should have been.

     There was \only one/ WOPR!  Or at least they only showed one.
This is insane.  When something is the heart of your system, you have
to have backups!  And if there had been a backup, perhaps it could
have been put on-line so they could take out the one that was trying
to win the game.  (Of course, the backups might have been running in
parallel and also trying to run the game, but it would have been an
interesting plot wrinkle.)

                             David Wright

                             {vax135|decvax|ihnss}!cornell!ddw
                             ddw.cornell@udel-relay
                             ddw@cornell

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 83 1:32:16-EDT (Sun)
From: harpo!floyd!whuxlb!pyuxll!ech @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: war games gripe

     The bogus area code for Sunnyvale isn't what caught me; the joke
is that if you DID poll Sunnyvale looking for answering modems, about
every third number would come up...

=Ned=

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1983 11:16:05 EDT (Thursday)
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: WAR GAMES FOR ALL

     ColecoVision has announced a home video game:

                       GLOBAL THERMONUCLEAR WAR

     I kid you not.

     Perhaps what happens next is that the Commies launch an attack,
and, instead of defending us, WOPR accidentally dials up somebody's
home system and plays a game of same while we all fry.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jul 83 2116-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #25
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 23 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 25

Today's Topics:
                Film - THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (4 msgs)














----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1983 1723-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <Bio3.P-Trei at CU20A>
Subject: Is Leia the Other?

     Are we really sure Leia is 'the Other'? I dont recall any proof
of this in ROTJ. What does she do in this movie? She totally screws up
the rescue of Han.  She took part in an airsled chase, crashed, and
was rescued by the Ewoks (why did'nt they eat her?).  That's all. At
least she got to fly the ship in the earlier movies.

     If I recall TESB, the OB1/Yoda exchange goes:

     OB1:  "He is our last hope."
     Yoda: "No, there is another."

     Yoda and OB1 tell Luke about Leia in ROTJ, but dont say she is
the Other.

     Have we seen her use the Force? The only Force-related act I
recall her in was hearing Luke's call in TESB. This does not require
ability. Force-users can project to non-users (remember the Darth
Vader School of Personnel Management).  So Luke COULD transmit to her,
without her having any particular ability of her own. I argue that we
have no proof that Leia is either the Other, or that she is a
Force-user. Lucas is keeping her around for something else.

     To throw a further spanner in the works, I might point out that
it is entirely possible for non-identical twins (eg, Luke & Leia) to
have different fathers.

Random Notes:

     Whenever we see the Force used on a living being, the effects
seem only to be mental. At no point do we see any Force-user levitate
another person (the closest we get is when Luke levitates R2D2 in
TESB, and C3PO's chair in ROTJ). All the physical reactions of people
are reasonably done by mind trickery; people are persuaded not to see
OB1, to show Luke right into Jabba's office, to stop breathing
(permanently), to get the hell out of the way, and so on and so forth,
but when Darth Vader & son fight, what do they do? Throw things at
each other. It would seem that Jedi carry lightsabres because the
Force is generally useless against people. Do the Emperor's blue bolts
screw this idea up? I wish I could see Lucas' position paper on the
Force.

     What happens to a Jedi's wardrobe when he dies? In ANH, we see
OB1 snuff it, and his cloak is left behind. In ROTJ, Yodas' cloak goes
with him. DV/Anakin seems to leave not only his suit and prosthetics,
but his body as well. Oh well, maybe Yoda is so holy he CAN take it
with him.

     I have not re-seen ROTJ recently. Does anyone recall whether in
the final scene LS is carrying his own lightsabre, or his daddies?

PS: there are already pirate videotapes of ROTJ up here...

                        Peter Trei
                        BIO3.P-TREI%CU20A@COLUMBIA-20

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1983 1417-PDT
From: Big Don Baker <BAKER at JPL-VAX>
Subject: MORE??

"From:  DOUG           17-JUN-1983 18:23
To:     BAKER
Subj:   Something to send to SF-LOVERS"

"From:  DOUG           17-JUN-1983 17:02
To:     DOUG
Subj:   RE: different Versions of Star Wars I"

     On opening day, Star Wars (now SW 4/ANH) did not make any mention
of future or 'past' se/pre/quels.  That only happened after it was out
for a while.  I did not see the "Episode Eye-Vie- ..." stuff until
TESB was released.

     There are also some scenes cut out from earlier versions: Does
anyone remember hearing a Steam-Trooper shouting "Close the blast
doors, close the blast doors!" while Con Solo and the Cookie Monster
were being chased back toward the Falcon?  The "Open the blast doors,
open the blast doors!" is still there, but the effect isn't quite so
funny w/o hearing the same guy mis-time it a couple of seconds
earlier.  In fact, if you know when it is, you can get a great
reaction from the crowd by shouting it in a Steam-Trooper imitation
voice at the right time!  There are other scenes missing, too, but the
clarity of memory...

Subj: RE: The Emp sensing Yoda

     Why should the Emperor sense Yoda in any special way?  Yoda's
"disturbance of the force" has been there for centuries.  The big E
could not have been around for more than a couple hundred years (he
seems quite powerful, but in ANH, he has only recently completed his
hold on the senate).  Yoda's disturbance could very well be considered
a steady back-ground signal to new-comers.  Only by close proximity
would the difference be sensed, and Yoda's home planet seems to be
somewhat remote, making random flybys by random Jedi unlikely.

                  "For Monagar, forever..."
                  Doug Freyburger
DOUG@JPL-VAX

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 83 09:48:45 PST (Thu)
From: John Mangrich <grich.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: RotJ goofs (spoiler)

     Apologies if these have already been reported and I missed
them...

     --When Luke jumps off the platform on the sand cruiser in the
desert and R2D2 pops his light saber to him and he starts cutting
people: it appears that when the first wrinkled green guy falls into
the pit, he loses his mask and we see a full head of blond hair.  It
happens fast-can anyone else confirm this?

     --In the Ewok tree village when they're about to roast our
heroes: R2D2 is brought in tied to poles, but in other shots he's
standing to the side, completely free and untied!  Then, we later see
him being freed (when they cut the rope and he does a face plant onto
the floor).  This is fairly obvious if you're watching for it.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 83 9:51:22-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!markb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Is Leia the Other? - (nf)

     Of COURSE Leia is the other!  As far as general spunkiness goes,
in ROTJ she gets to:

     1) Masquerade as a bounty hunter.

     2) Threaten Jabba and his court with a `thermal detonator'.

     3) Strangle Jabba with the chain that ties her to him (it?).

     4) Save Han and herself by shooting two Stormtroopers at close
        range.

     5) Reply `I know.' when Han told her he loved her (my favorite
        part of the movie).

     As far as Luke never being told that Leia is the other - in ROTJ:

     1) Yoda, with his dying breath, tells Luke `there is another
        Skywalker'.

     2) When asked about `the other', Obi-wan informs Luke that this
        is his twin sister.

     3) Luke realizes that Leia is his twin.

     4) Obi-wan then tells Luke `your inside serves you well'.

     As far as Leia displaying use of the force:

     1) She understands intuitively that Luke speaks the truth when he
        tells her she is his sister.

     2) After the Death Star is exploded, she divines from the Force
        that Luke is still alive.

     Some people should watch these movies a little more closely.  Try
seeing it again now, when there are fewer screaming children, and more
of the dialogue will be understandable.

                Mark Bales  (Rabid SW fan)
                ...!ucbvax!hpda!markb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jul 83 2124-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #26
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 23 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:
        Discussion - King Arthur (4 msgs) & Names in Fantasy,
       Books - Patricia MacKillip & Orson Scott Card (2 msgs) &
        Susan Cooper & J.P. Hogan & John Varley & Larry Niven

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 21 Jul 83 22:21:48-PDT
From: Mike Achenbach <ACHENBACH@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: More for Arthur

     The book "The Pendragon", by Catherine Christian is an
interesting re-telling of Arthurian myths.  This book is set in a more
historically acurate (alledgedly) England than most.  E.g. in this
version, the Romans play a fairly major role.  All in all, quite
interesting.

     Also, for something really obscure, "Tortilla Flat", by John
Steinbeck is supposed to be based on an Arthurian cycle.  I realize
that's not exactly SF, but what the hell, he was a Nobel Laurate.

/Mike

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 83 14:21:59-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!cires!nbires!ut-ngp!cmaz504 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: the Book of Merlyn

     The book of Merlyn was indeed published after T.H. White's death.
The remains of the manuscript were found I remember hearing at the
Humanities Research Center at the University of Texas where much of
White's papers are kept. The official reason the book of Merlyn wasn't
published along with the rest of Once and Future King was that it came
out during WW II and the paper for the extra 100 pages or so couldn't
be spared. The real reason is probably that the book of Merlyn is very
anti-war. It takes up on the night before Auther and his son were to
meet in their final battle (which is where The Once and Future King
ended). Merlyn makes one more appearance and together he and Auther
visit the animals that Auther learned from in The Sword in the Stone.
Everyone gets into discussions of wheter war is good or bad etc.
Personally I didn't find it quite as interesting as the rest of the
book but it does round the story out. Hope that clears up some of the
questions.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1983 1459-EDT
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: King Arthur

     The King Arthur Source Book was recently published by Chaosium in
California. I haven't seen it yet, but here stuff is usually pretty
well written.(mostly fantasy games and related material.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1983 16:58:04 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.)
Subject: Miscellaneous Comments on Arthur

     In the last decade there have been a lot of re-tellings of the
Arthurian legends.  They're an interesting lot, in that they reveal a
great deal more about the perspectives of the authors (and the
authors' views of both modern- day and medieval society) than they do
about King Arthur.  In fact, what they really are is nothing more than
revisionist histories of Arthur's reign.

     For instance, take Marion Zimmer Bradley's "The Mists of Avalon."
Her viewpoint character is Morgaine (= Morgan le Fay), a priestess of
the old faith at Avalon (=Glastonbury).  This book is really about the
conflicts between the old faith -- mostly Wicca, with a bit of Druidic
stuff added, as far as I can tell -- and the new, as represented by
Gwynhwyfar, Arthur's fervently Christian life.  It's a good, if not
excellent book, but its impact depends on the reader already knowing
the traditional telling of the Arthuria tales for its impact.

     Or, look at Thomas Berger's ("Little Big Man" & many others)
"Arthur Rex".  Here, you've got a cross between Malory and James
Dickey's "Deliverance" with the knights spending most of their time
complaining that everyone thinks they're buggering each other.  Lots
of jolly male humor, etc.

     My favorite translation of "Sir Gawaine & the Green Knight," by
the way, is the one by Tolkien.

     The "Dark is Rising" series is by Susan Cooper, and is very good.
It's available in Dell Yearling editions at kid's bookstores.

     A major reason why we don't see a lot of Arthurian stuff in
pre-Tudor times is that most of it was transmitted orally, rather than
in writing.  This is, at its root, folk legend we're dealing with, and
that's something that didn't get written down too often until the last
150 years or so.

     Another key version of the Arthur story is that of Tennyson,
which tends to be ignored these days because poetry (especially in his
flow'ry style) is out of fashion of late.

     Anderson's "The High Crusade" is only tangentially Arthurian, at
best.  It takes a few characters who could have lived in Arthur's day
and, in essence, does a reverse-Twain on them by bringing them into a
high-tech environment.  I would, however, note his "A Midsummer
Tempest", which is set in the world of Shakespeare's "MidSummer's
Night's Dream" and "The Tempest", and in which all of the characters
(except the fools, of course) actually speak in (readable) iambic
pentameter!

Dave Axler
(axler.upenn@udel-relay)

------------------------------

Date: Fri 22 Jul 83 01:02:38-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #17

Dear /amqueue (Anne Marie Quint),

     Hold your horses!  Myths always borrow from the existing body of
mythology.  This was the central theme of a course on Tolkien I took,
so it must be true, right?  Seriously, all folk tales draw from a
similar repertoire of characters and plots--you might like to look up
one of the books we used, titled The Morphology of the Folk Tale.
Think about it.  Shakespeare did not exactly come up with the story of
Romeo and Juliet all by himself--we appreciate him for his
craftsmanship, not for his originality.  I would not say that
parallels between the works of different authors is a sure sign of
evil.  When I read Donaldson, I had fears that it would be a cheap
rip-off of Tolkien, but I soon felt these fears had been allayed.

     To get more particular: I do see the parallel between the Ranyhyn
and the Ramen, although the former are the beasts and the latter the
riders.  Were they stolen, er, borrowed?  I'd say, yes, probably.  If
borrowing like this occurred throughout the work, I'd call it damning.
So what about the ravers and the balrogs?  Well, gee, aren't the
balrogs just like a lot of other fairy tale demons?  Sauron has the
Palantir, and can keep track of the Ring like Foul kept track of
Covenant through his boots--and TV cops have electronic tracking
devices.  It is not as if these ideas were so original that Tolkien
can be thought of as having exclusive rights on them in any sense.  As
for "orcrest", Donaldson's word for Earthstone, being taken directly
from "orc", the word for "heart" in Quenya, the language of the High
Elves, I have my doubts.  I had always understood it as "or-crest",
"or" being a romantic-tongue root for gold.

     I think I still have a book on Elvish lying around in my closet.
If you like, I can go look up the title for you.

                                Cheers,
                                Mike

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 13:23:00-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!cmcl2!jjm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RIDDLE OF STARS

     I hate to disagree with the original review of these books,
because the author clearly enjoyed the series greatly.

     However, I disliked these books with an equal intensity.

     I don't mind stories where there is word play, but it has to be
done playfully and it must fit in with the tone of the story.  These
"serious" books actually have a villain named "Deth"... and a volume
entitled "The Heir of Land and Sea" (Air, <Earth>, <Water>...)

     I found that poor word play such as this detracted from the
story.  I could just never take it seriously, and it didn't succeed as
a farce.

        Jim McParland
        American Bell - Holmdel
        hou5e!jjm

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 83 9:12:22-PDT (Wed)
From: npois!hogpc!houca!odin!orion!hou5f!hou5e!jjm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: More Orson Scott Card

     Orson Scott Card is indeed one of the best new writers of recent
years.  If you read ANYTHING by him, try to get a copy of his first
science fiction story "Ender's Game" originally published in Analog
magazine, and reprinted in an anthology of Card short stories.

     I started corresponding with Scott after that first story (a
correspondence that I am ashamed to say I have let lapse).  He is a
very interesting person - a Mormon from Salt Lake City whose only
previous writing experience was editing a Mormon magazine and writing
religious plays!

     "Ender's Game" is about a group of young boys being trained in a
special high-tech military academy, which is designed to find and
train the next great military leader.  Ender is that child prodigy,
and the story of his rise through the ranks in school is well-paced
and exciting.  It would make a hell of a movie but Scott thinks that
present film techniques are not up to the extensive zero-G sequences
required.

     HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!

Jim McParland
ABI - Holmdel
hou5e!jjm

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 20:25:01-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!sts @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Orson Scott Card

     I agree with Jim McParland about 'Ender's Game'.  I don't
generally care much about short stories (not enough time to develop
things, so they're forgotten by the next day) but 'Ender's Game' is
still fresh and clear in my mind!  *outstanding*

                        stan the leprechaun hacker

(I can just imagine what it must have been like for the editor digging
through the slush pile to come upon *that*)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 83 13:22:19-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!ritcv!tropix!aii @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Dark is Rising

     In reply to a question...

     The Dark is Rising series was written by Susan Cooper.  They
include (in order):

        Over Sea, Under Stone
        The Dark is Rising
        Greenwitch
        The Grey King
        Silver on the Tree

     I found these books to be very enjoyable, though I think I would
have liked them much more if I had read them when I was younger.

     They are "aimed" at the 12 to 17 year old crowd, so some of the
plot developement seemed pretty predicatable to this ancient 23 year
old.

     These books used to be "impossible" to find (write to the
publisher...)  but they were recently reprinted in paperback!

     Susan Cooper also wrote "Dawn of Fear", which is a few months in
the life of a young English boy during the WWII bombings.

     If anybody knows of any other Susan Cooper books, I'd appreciate
knowing the titles.

Alice Bentley
...rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 83 8:31:53-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!aplvax!tad @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: JP Hogan's The Genesis Machine

Two comments:

     1.  Brad Clifford approached the Department of Defense people
with the idea of the J-Bomb only after he was convinced by Prof.
Zimmermann that it was in Clifford's best scientific intrests.
Originaly, he did not wnat any part of the War Machine and it's over
enthusiastic guardians in Security. Clifford told no one about his
plans, not even his wife nor Aub Philipz, and totally enmeshed himself
into the Brunnermount project. If the man who developed the physics
and mathematics for J-space was fully (apparently) behind the project,
and was cleared previously, it follows that Security would not

     2.  Clifford was in a class above Einstein. He developed the math
and physics of J-Space when no one else could since they were
usispacial mechanics. Aub Philipz admitted that he couldn't have
thought of the required math, and he was considered the next important
member of the team.  If Clifford had that intelligence going for him,
and the ability to pick up on the use of the BIAC computers as rapidly
as he did, it also follows that he could have planned everything
without any complicationBrunnermount J-Bomb worked after Clifford and
Philipz walked out of the control room? In the epilog it was mentioned
that everyone had a good laugh when the machine finally shut down.

                        Terry Dexter (tad @ aplvax)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 83 10:45-PDT
From: mclure @ Sri-Unix
Subject: Varley's MILLENIUM

     I liked Varley's latest better than his TITAN/WIZARD books but
thought the ending was weird, almost P.K. Dickish. Each chapter is
titled after some famous SF time travel book or story which is clever
but forced.  I thought the characterizations of Bill Smith and Louise
Baltimore were pretty good though.

     Anyone else have opinions?

Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 23 July 1983 1420-EDT (Saturday)
From: Paul.Hilfinger@CMU-CS-A (C410PH01)
Subject: Phonetic query

     Does anyone have time for a completely trivial query?  I've
noticed that Larry Niven consistently renders the word ``yeah''
(officially pronounced with an `a' as in `air', `dare', or `Mary') as
``Yah.''At first, I thought that this was simply an instance of the
superior observational powers of the professional writer and that I
had never listened carefully to how people actually pronounced it.
But when I started listening closely, I invariably heard `yeah' or
`yuh' but never `yah.'  So what is the explanation?  Do people say
`yeah' in Detroit, New Jersey, New York, Pittsburgh, and the San
Francisco Bay area and `yah' everywhere else?  Is Niven trying to
throw eccentricities into his writing to slow me down?  If so, he's
succeeding.

Paul Hilfinger (reply to Hilfinger@Berkeley)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jul 83 1228-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #27
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 24 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 27

Today's Topics:
    Books - Robert A. Heinlein (2 msgs) & J.O. Jeppson (4 msgs) &
               Larry Niven & John Norman & King Arthur,
                Discussion - SF Music & Usenet Styles,
                             Film - Dune,
                    Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 July 1983 05:59 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

     For those of you who didn't read my original note I did NOT SLUR
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  I merely pointed out that it conforms
very well to the basic Marxist mythos!  I suggest a few people out
there read some Marx or better Lenin who expounded the revolutionary
ideals.  If I had explained that this book was in reality a Christian
allegory in which a creature part man, part god acts as a savior I
would have stirred up much less controversy although this does not fit
the story as well.

     As far as I am concerned Marxists and Libertarians are so similar
that I can barely tell them apart and I know a good number of both.
One of my friends keeps turning up on my ballot so I know she is still
a libertarian and my Marxist friends still feel guilty about how well
computer hacking pays.

     Unfortunately, both camps are full of ideologs.  If you are
familiar with the "computer scientist" Dijkstra you know a lot about
ideologs.  Ideologs tend to be very naive and a lot of them are
terribly informed.  I remember a friend of mine explaining the dangers
of the Iranian revolution to a group of Marxists who didn't realize
that the typical mullah was not the typical South American
revolutionary priest.  Both factions claim to have a well defined
utopia although making it work merely involves circumventing human
nature and sometimes the laws of physics as well.

     Once and for all, I liked The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  I think
Heinlein used to be a great author.  I think he has fallen on hard
times and that his later work does not measure up to his earlier
stuff.  If nothing else his novels are structurally weaker and seem to
be two separate books shoved together in the middle.  I know this is
very fashionable nowadays (e.g. Gravity's Rainbow) but I demand a
story.

P.S. I wish to categorically assert (for those who are also on the
SPACE mailing list) that I AM NOT the person who proposed sending a
major science fiction author in the space shuttle and pushing him/her
out.

------------------------------

Date: 15 July 1983 11:32 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

     For those of you who didn't read my original note I did NOT SLUR
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  I merely pointed out that it conforms
very well to the basic Marxist mythos!  I suggest a few people out
there read some Marx or better Lenin who expounded the revolutionary
ideals.  If I had explained that this book was in reality a Christian
allegory in which a creature part man, part god acts as a savior I
would have stirred up much less controversy although this does not fit
the story as well.

     As far as I am concerned Marxists and Libertarians are so similar
that I can barely tell them apart and I know a good number of both.
One of my friends keeps turning up on my ballot so I know she is still
a libertarian and my Marxist friends still feel guilty about how well
computer hacking pays.

     Unfortunately, both camps are full of ideologs.  If you are
familiar with the "computer scientist" Dijkstra you know a lot about
ideologs.  Ideologs tend to be very naive and a lot of them are
terribly informed.  I remember a friend of mine explaining the dangers
of the Iranian revolution to a group of Marxists who didn't realize
that the typical mullah was not the typical South American
revolutionary priest.  Both factions claim to have a well defined
utopia although making it work merely involves circumventing human
nature and sometimes the laws of physics as well.

     Once and for all, I liked The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  I think
Heinlein used to be a great author.  I think he has fallen on hard
times and that his later work does not measure up to his earlier
stuff.  If nothing else his novels are structurally weaker and seem to
be two separate books shoved together in the middle.  I know this is
very fashionable nowadays (e.g. Gravity's Rainbow) but I demand a
story.

P.S. I wish to categorically assert (for those who are also on the
SPACE mailing list) that I AM NOT the person who proposed sending a
major science fiction author in the space shuttle and pushing him/her
out.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 83 11:52:12-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!phs!cmk @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Jeppson

     J. O. Jeppson, aka Mrs. Isaac Asimov, had a short story in the
may issue of (Yes!) Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine.  I
wouldn't exactly give this particular story a rave review, but the
principle behind it was interesting anyway.

                        Chuck

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 83 1:21:14-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: J.O. Jeppson. - (nf)

     It's all true.  Dr. Janet O. Jeppson is Mrs. Dr. Asimov.  Her
doctorate is in psychology or something like that, by the way.

  --berry

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 12:10:05-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!we13!otuxa!ll1!sb1!burl!clyde!crc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: J.O. Jeppson.

     J O Jeppson is really Asimov's wife.  She spoke before the New
Jersey Science Fiction Society last year.  She brought her husband,
Issac, and her daughter along.  This was her first public speach/talk
before an SF group.  In the past she had only addressed members of the
psychoanalytic profession.

                Charles Colbert

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1983  02:51 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: J. O. Jeppson

     is indeed Asimov's wife. And anyone who thinks that the horrid
"Psrinks Anonymous" stories that regularly appear in IASFM aren't
nepotism hasn't read them.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1983 0224-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: phonetics

     Niven is a native of LA, and his family history can be traced
back to the Dohenies.

     I say "Yah" alot too.  I also say "Naw" and "Yep", as well as
"Yo".

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 83 11:50:46-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!sb1!ll1!otuxa!lsk @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: request for John Norman, GOR, book titles

     It seems my library does not have any of John Norman's books. In
order to order them through inter-library loans, I will need some
titles.  Can someone please mail me a couple of titles and what order,
if any, they should be read?  Thanks.

-larry

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1983 03:08 EDT
From: "Richard Butler, L" <BUTLER @ MIT-DMS>
Subject: 2112 Redux

The Neil Peart alterations to Anthem are large, but the "Elder Race"
which still "learns and grows" is, as I remember the story (not
having my copy of the album handy to be sure), a group of humans
separated from the men of the home system when said (solar) system
blew itself to hell with the help of the human race (whole planets
destroyed, y'know- couldn't happen again, they say). They are not
aliens at all, just galactic tourists coming home.
                                        -Me

P.S. I still don't like the idea of those dual monochromatic shadows
that Fred Blonder suggests should exist on Tatooine. If he would
please reiterate the evidence he gave atop the Comp Sci building at
UMD on the 4th, I would like to know if anyone else has any comments
on this subject; it should make light reading.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1983 0226-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-SPEECH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Usenet Submissions

     Could we not have net.sf items submitted to the digest?

     Usenet people tend to interact differently than Arpanet people.
They tend to rave about pointless things for longer amounts of time.
(Look at your favorite messages about Anakin, the technology of
Wargames, etc.)

     Another problem is that usenet messages are posted, replied to,
and refuted all in one digest. I think (have only talked with 2 or 3
secretary types) that this tends to inhibit participation by Arpanet
people. They don't want reply to messages that everyone is already
tired of.

     There are many sites that act as gateways from usenet to arpanet,
and I would venture to guess that anyone who receives sf-lovers can
have net.sf forwarded to them.

     My last point is that the usenet people discuss movies much more
than books (which I at least find more interesting.) SF-Lovers before
its vacation seemed to contain more discussion on novels (It could be
just "Those were the days" syndrome.)

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 22:50:05-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dune cast and crew final - (nf)

Cast and crew for "Dune" (from Aug., 83, Science Fiction Chronicle):
Note Producer!

(Linda Hunt fans, note "Shadout Mapes")

Director/Screenplay:    David Lynch (Elephant Man)
Producer:               Raffaella DiLaurentiis (Conan)
Production Designer:    Tony Masters (2001)
Editor:                 Tony Gibbs (Ragtime)
Special FX:             Kit West (Raiders of the Lost Ark, TESB)
Special Visual FX:      John Dykstra (Star Wars, Firefox)
Special Mechanical FX:  Carlos Rambaldi (ET)
Costume Design:         Bob Ringwood (Excalibur)
Cinematographer:        Freddie Francis (The French Ltnt.'s Woman)

Paul:           Kyle MacLachlan
Jessica:        Francesca Annis
Duke Leto:      Jurgen Prochnow
The Emperor:    Jose Ferrer
Rev. Mother Helen: Sian Phillips
Thufir:         Freddie Jones
Gurney:         Aldo Ray
Dr. Yueh:       Dean Stockwell
Duncan:         Richard Jordan
Baron Harkonnen: Kenneth McMillan
Feyd Rautha:    Sting
Rabban:         Paul Smith
Piter:          Brad Dourif
Shadout Mapes:  Linda Hunt
Irulan:         Anne-Louise Lambert
Stilgar:        Everett McGill
Dr. Kynes:      Max von Sydow
Chani:          Sean Young
Alia:           Alicia Witt
Rev. Mother Romallo: Silvano Mangano
Jamis:          Judd Omen

                                Wombat
                                pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1983 0231-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Once and Future King

     The subject of Arthur (no pun intended) can also be seen in DC
Comics "Camelot 3000" series.  This is a limited series, (12 issues)
printed on Baxter paper (Really high grade stuff).

     The premise is: King Arthur arises again when England (and the
rest of the world) really needs him: to stave off an alien invasion,
led by none other than Morgan Le Fey...

     Not going to spoil it for you, but RUN to your nearest COMIX
store.  HIGHLY reccomended.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 83 10:17:29-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!mcnc!ncsu!mauney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Peter Davidson as Dr. Who

     It's hard to understand why Alan Wexelblat is so violently
opposed to Peter Davison's characterization of the Doctor.  If you
think Davison is dull, have you seen John Pertwee?  Why is an enormous
scarf more acceptable attire than a cricket outfit?  That shirt with
the question marks was also worn by Tom Baker, and the three "really
gorky" companions were all picked up by Tom Baker.  Two of them were
interesting characters.  And if you think the series is consistent
from story to story, you haven't been paying attention.

     Two half-hour segments is not a reliable sample.  The show is
rather uneven (always has been), and it takes a while to forget the
old Doctor and get used to the new.  Tom Baker may or may not have
been the best Doctor ever, but give Davison a chance before condemning
him.

               Jon Mauney
               North Carolina State University

               duke!mcnc!ncsu!mauney

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 0:59:41-EDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who Festival Tour Info

     Since there seems to be some interest on the Net in the "Whovian
Festival Tour", I'm including here all information I have on the two
stops yet to come.  This information is from "The Whovian Times," the
newsletter of the Dr. Who Fan Club of America (DWFCA), Volume 5 (they
mean issue 5), June 1983.

July 23-24:    Chicago
               Granada Theatre, 6427 N. Sheridan Rd.

July 30-31:    Denver
               Paramount Theatre, 519 16th St.

     All shows will be held 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, reserved seating
only.  At the time the newsletter was printed no show was sold out so
tickets will be available at the door, but only on the day of the
event.

     Tickets cost $10 or $15 (the more expensive seats are closer to
the stage).  To obtain tickets, you should call 1-800-CALLWHO (that's
1-800-225-5946) or (303) 332-5072 within Colorado.  Business hours are
9-5 Mountain Time.

     The guest stars for the Whovian Festival Tour are Jon Pertwee
(Doctor #3) and Lis Sladen (Sarah Jane Smith).  Activities planned
include Dr.  Who video programs, Q & A sessions, autograph sessions,
costume contests, and of course merchandising of Dr. Who-related
paraphenalia.

     That's all the information I have, and if the DWFCA phone numbers
are busy I can only suggest that you call the local theatre for
information.  If you are interested in joining the DWFCA, they are
located at P.O.  Box 6024, Cherry Creek Station, Denver, CO
80206-0024.  For your money (I'm not sure how much it is for a year's
membership) you get a heat-sensitive liquid crystal ("mood")
membership button and wallet card, and a newsletter WRITTEN IN ALL
CAPS AND JUST GUSHING OVER WITH GOLLY- GEE-WHIZ and full of
interviews, articles, and blowing-their-own- horn, and asking you to
shell out more money for buttons, T- shirts, and Whovian Festival
Tours.  Part of their income goes to support PBS stations that carry
Dr.  Who.  The best part of the whole club is the "mood" wallet card,
in my opinion.  Don't ask me for more info, I just gave you all I got,
but Dr. Who fans are welcome to send mail to me.

               David D. Levine
               ...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jul 83 1236-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #28
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 24 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 28

Today's Topics:
       General Comments - Andre Norton and SF Rock and SCA and
      Bug Jack Barron and John Varley and Dino De Laurentis and
                Robert Silverberg and Aliens in SF and
                    Living Your Fantasies (1 msg),
                      Books - Mr. 666 (3 msgs),
                  Conventions - NASFIC and Worldcon,
                Film - Barbarella & Star Trek (5 msgs)
                  Humor - UFO's and Little Green Men

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1983 10:02:04 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.)
Subject: Miscellaneous Comments on the last 30 issues

     Due to assorted delays, mail hangups, etc., I didn't get to read
the last umpteen issues till today.  Herewith, random and assorted
comments on a wide range of things that have been brought up over the
last month or so.

     1) Andre Norton: Rumor has it that she's been ill of late, and
had to cancel a GoH appearance at an East Coast con this spring.
Also, nobody's mentioned that she was an early winner of the Gandalf
Grand Master of Fantasy award.

     2) SF Rock: A lot of the recent discussion merely recapitulates
the lengthy one that occurred about a year ago.  Would-be debaters on
the topic ought to check out the archives and avoid re-invention of
the wheel.

     3) The SCA: I've always felt that this was a badly mis-named
group, in that they only encourage "creativity" and "anachronism"
within a fairly limited historical period.  What about those of us
who'd like a different time slot, or a different geographical/cultural
area -- Tokugawa Japan, for example?

     4) Bug Jack Barron: All the movie rumours are true, including the
ones about Ellison as scriptwriter and Costa-Gavras as director.  In
fact, the book has recently been re-released in a trade paperback with
a large movie plug on the cover.

     5) Millenium/Air Raid: Frankly, I thought the short story was
**much** better than the novelization of the script.  The ending was
pretty cliched, and the story suffered too much from the insertion of
unnecessary verbiage that only aided to bring it to novel length.

     6) Dino di Laurentis: Not my favorite producer, either, but
there's a funny story that I ought to pass on.  During the filming of
his remake of 'King Kong', he was a major pain-in-the-butt to the
various effects technicians, including those who were operating the
giant Kong hand used in a few scenes.  After an especially nasty
Friday, a few of the techies returned to the studio and re-configured
the ape-hand so that only its middle finger was upraised [[if they'd
been up on their folklore, they'd have realized that the appropriate
gesture for di Laurentis -- of Italian extraction -- would have been
the "fig", in which the thumb is projected forward between the index
and second figures.  But anyway, back to the story.]].  On Monday,
Dino arrived at the studio and was highly offended.  When he ordered
the hand reset to its normal usage, however, the motors locked up and
the thing was left in this unfriendly gesture for several *WEEKS*
while new parts were ordered and repairs were effected.

     7) Time Paradox Stories: Not the absolute best in terms of
writing, but still my favorite for sheer enjoyability, is Robert
Silverberg's "Up the Line".  Just about every possible paradox gets
explored in a wonderfully tongue-in- cheek fashion.

     8) Depicting Aliens: This has always been a problem in sf, and
actually ties in to important theories of sociolinguistics.  Many
linguists and anthro- pologists place great weight on a notion called
the "Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis", which suggests that your language
determines not only how you think, but also what you are capable of
thinking about (by defining the basic categories in which you verbally
perceive and organize the world around you).  This notion implies, of
course, that one can never totally understand another culture unless
you totally understand its language; further, it means that that
culture is, to some extent, defined by its language.  The problem of
translating an alien language thus becomes the problem of
understanding its culture, and vice versa.  Out of this comes the idea
that you can never adequately describe another culture in a language
not its own, because some of that culture's concepts (and the
categories underlying those concepts) will not be capable of
expression in the new language.

     When applied to sf, this theory explains why few authors have
even tried, let alone succeeded, in writing material in which the
viewpoint character is not, to some extent, a human; if they didn't do
this, the readers would have major problems in understanding the alien
concepts which they (the authors) are "translating" for us.  It's much
easier to have a human narrator explain the alien behavior to us than
to expect the reader to do the work.

     Of course, there are exceptions.  Among the best, I think, are
Terry Carr's story, "The Dance of the Changer and the Three", Richard
Lupoff's 'Space War Blues', and Fred Pohl's 'Jem' [one of the many
results of the "Medea: Harlan's World" project].

     9) Living Your Fantasies: Recent issues of the British
fantasy-gaming magazine, "White Dwarf", have carried advertisements
for weekend trips to a castle in which D&D (tm, etc.) is actually
played in the flesh!

--Dave Axler
(Axler.UPenn@UDel-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 83 14:31:13-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!cmcl2!floyd!vax135! @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "666 paranoia"

     I one time lived at 666 St James Street - which I lovingly refer
to as the number of the beast.  It had good light fixtures and big
west windows so the powers of darkness never had a chance.  I would
have liked a thirteenth floor apartment but the building only had
eleven floors.  Does the St James cancel out the 666 ?????

Richard Loken

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 83 14:28:16-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "666 paranoia"

     Here's another reason to dislike our President and his
militaristic policies...

     Our Fearless Leader's full name is Ronald Wilson Reagan.  Note
how many letters are in each of his three names (6).  Hence, Ronald
Wilson Reagan = 666 = The Beast.  Moral Majority members take note.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 16:50:45-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!bane @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "666 paranoia"

     As I recall, on the night of Ronnie's election '666' was the
number of the day for the Maryland state lottery.  EEEEEK!

        Bob "Interested in strange coincidences" Bane
--
Arpa:   bane.umcp-cs@udel-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!bane

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1983 17:50:45-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: re NASFIC and Worldcon Bids

     A response to your plug at the same level of complexity would
state that the reason there hasn't been a Southern Worldcon since 1951
is that the last several sets of Southern bidders have been idiots
(New Orleans in 1976 bidder: "I want you to know we have a terrific
convention planned for you, and we've got all sorts of great things
for your wives to do too!"). Your memory is also faulty; the second
NASFIC was in Louisville.

     My personal assessment is that the Austin committee has an edge,
simply because Detroit and Columbus are known or making fools of
themselves in public. However, the same condemnation applies to
Atlanta. Also, with reference to "having their share", the fannish
population is much heavier in the Northeast than in the South. The
South may have hurt its cause by being the latest example of political
fuggheadedness (trying to change the rotation from West, Central,
East, to West, East, South).

     I get the impression that there really aren't that many fans on
the net; if people are interested we can continue in this vein for
quite some time.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 83 7:27:56-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Barbarella - (nf)

     Dino produced, Roger directed.

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 83 9:42:34-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: star trek menagerie episode

     I believe the reason had to do with the fact that the Spock
character was a member of a "bird-like" race and the limping was to
indicate the difference between humans and Vulcans.

Allen England

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 83 13:12:08-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!security!ritcv!tropix!aii @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: could Spock return?

     Actually, the idea of using transporters in this fashion was
discussed in depth in several of the Venus Equilateral stories by
George O. Smith.

     Impact on society was, as you image, devistating.

     I'm not sure which magazines these stories were originally
printed in, but they are in "The Complete Venus Equilateral".  My copy
was $2.95.

Alice Bentley
...rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 1:26:38-EDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: could Spock return?

     Yes, the transporter was used in an animated episode (more than
one, if memory serves) to restore old people to youth.  An extremely
dangerous concept, plotwise, which is just another flaw in Star Trek's
believability.  (In the live-action series, Rodenberry probably would
have prohibited this gimmick for the same reason he made it impossible
for characters to initiate a beam-up using their communicators from
the surface: it made it all too easy for a character to thumb his nose
at danger, and too easy to get out of it.)

     However, I have this habit of trying to explain bozo mistakes
like this within the framework of the work of fiction (in this case,
the Federation universe).  Now, suppose that transporting someone is
VERY expensive.  (You may suggest that the frequency with which it was
done implies that this is not the case.  Read on.)  Note that
Starfleet is a military organization, and compare transporters with
military jets in our own armed forces.  High-performance fighter
aircraft are among the fastest things flying today, and the Air Force
uses them every day because they can accomplish tasks which nothing
else could do.  However, they are monstrously expensive to use and
maintain.

     Now, there are several instances I can think of where fighter
aircraft technology could have civilian uses.  Transporting blood and
drugs to hospitals, injured people likewise, Federal Express, who
knows?  Yet no private organization could afford to maintain these
beasts, even assuming that this would not be construed as a violation
of national secrity.  Therefore fighter aircraft are used only by the
armed forces, and only for specific kinds of duties.  Exceptions are
rare.

     Now apply this back to Star Trek.  Transporters are used by
Starfleet because they can accomplish the job as nothing else can.
However, they are too expensive for the civilian uses the concept
suggests, and they are in such heavy use (or have so much downtime:
you remember how unreliable they are) that experiments such as
bringing injured people back to health are performed only in the
gravest, most immediately mission-threatening circumstances.

     However, I think that idea could be the basis of a fine story.
See also "Theory and Practice of Teleportation" by Larry Niven (in the
collection "Inconstant Moon," I think).

        - David D. Levine
        ...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 83 9:19:18-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!5941ux!dje @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: star trek menagerie episode

     Spock did limp in the flashback scenes in "The Menagerie."  No,
it wasn't part of the Spock character definition, and it wasn't
because Leonard Nimoy hurt his foot.  In the original pilot script
(from which the flashback scenes were taken), the Enterprise, before
it intercepted the "distress call" that led it to Talos, was returning
from a battle with the Kalars on Rigel 7 during which several crew
members, including Spock, had been injured.

Dave Ellis / Bell Labs, Piscataway NJ
...!{hocda,ihnp4}!houxm!houxf!5941ux!dje
...!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!hogpc!houxm!houxf!5941ux!dje

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 83 16:38:08-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-ivax!nmtvax!student @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: could Spock return?

     To find out what some of the effects of using the transporter to
bring Spock back from the dead I suggest reading from Larry Niven`s
story "The Theory and Speculation of Teleportation" from his
collection called "Convergent Series." This was originally given as a
speech to MISFITS during the early seventies.

Sincerely;
Greg Hennessy
..ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!student

P.S. Speaking of Niven is his oft partner Jerry Pournelle anywhere out
there???
--
Greg Hennessy

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1983 0348-EDT
From: STRAZ.TD%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Aliens Anonymous

From the AP wire...

SEEN ANY FURRY GREEN MEN LATELY?

     DAVENPORT, Iowa - If your love life falls apart, there's Dear
Abby.  If you drink too much, there's Alcoholics Anonymous. But if you
see furry green spacemen under your apple tree, then who do you turn
to?  Barbara Schutte, 31, hopes you'll turn to her group, Abintra,
Inc.  Slug PM-UFO Group. New, will stand. 500 words.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jul 83 2105-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #29
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 25 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 29

Today's Topics:
                       Film - WarGames (6 msgs)














----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 22 Jul 83 02:29:24-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: WarGames

     Let me start by saying that I enjoyed the movie.

     Since I make a point of evading reviews and previews before
seeing a movie, it did not occur to me, at the time, that people would
think the scenario was realistic.

     There is a big difference between "not impossible" and realistic.
Interstellar space travel is not impossible.

     It is clear to me, in retrospect, why so many people, even
intelligent people, thought WarGames was realistic.  The setting is
very much here-and-now.  Dr. Strangelove was a comedy and plainly was
not meant to be taken seriously.  Colossus was a fantasy computer
buried under a mountain somewhere, and it wanted to take over the
world--faraway and farfetched.  The home computer, on the other hand,
is commonplace, everyday, ubiquitous.

     "So," thinks Joe Average, "maybe they made the computer a little
too human.  Maybe the bit with the tic-tac-toe at the end was a little
hokey.  Home computers, though, I know about them, and I read where a
person can use one to dial up the big computers.  Maybe it takes more
cleverness than I've got, to break into one of them, but I'm always
hearing about the clever 8-year-olds who know how to beat those
things.  It could happen.  I bet it could."

     This kind of thinking stops being funny when Joe Average turns
out to be your congressman and he starts demanding to know how come
this kind of thing could happen.  He will end up wasting his time, as
well as that of his colleagues; they will set up investigative bodies
to report on "the sad shape of the internal security of our country's
national defense organization" brought about by their reliance on
computer systems, for "as everyone knows, computers are inherently
unreliable".  Urk.

                                Cheers,
                                Mike

------------------------------

Date: Fri 22 Jul 83 06:24:10-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: WarGames :-)

     BTW, did anyone else find it amusing that all the people who
thought the point of the movie was obvious had different points in
mind?

                                Cheers,
                                Mike

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 22 Jul 1983 09:58-PDT
From: Steven Tepper <greep@SU-DSN>
Subject: War Games

     I finally got around to seeing War Games and noticed lots of
little things that didn't quite click, some of which I don't think
have been mentioned so far.  For example:

     One of the visitors from Alabama was carrying a camera.  Cameras
     are not allowed at military bases.

     When the FBI apprehended David, he was coming out of a store with
     a drink, which he had presumably just bought.  Later he found
     himself at a pay phone without even a dime.  Seems unlikely he
     would have spent his last dime buying a coke, and they don't
     usually take your money unless they're throwing you in the clink.

     WOPR could not possibly known what phone number he was calling
     from -- there's no way for the telephone subscriber to determine
     this.  (Someone *must* have brought this up so far, but I don't
     remember seeing it.)

     Teachers usually keep paper records of test scores and class
     grades.  I doubt anyone could get away with changing substandard
     grades into better- than-average ones without getting caught (at
     least in high school, where the teachers know the students -- I
     can easily believe that could happen at a megaversity).

     Anyway, I really liked the movie.  A lot of SF movies give me the
impression of being little more than copies of other movies, and this
one didn't.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 83 16:06 EDT (Friday)
From: Denber.WBST@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: War Games - My $0.02

     OK, I wasn't going to say anything 'cause I didn't see any
messages about this lately - until today.  So I might as well voice my
pet peeve: *why* are they zooming along in a helicopter trying to
reach the cave before it's sealed off ("Close the blast doors!  Close
the blast doors!"), and then in the next scene they're bouncing along
in a jeep?  Like why didn't they just fly right up to the door?  (I
know - then they couldn't have crashed through the gates).  And when
the kid is breaking out of his Touch-Tone (TM of you-know-who) jail,
as long as he had the access plate off, why didn't he just short the
door-opening relay or whatever mechanism?  I mean recording the tones
was just too much.

     Whoever saw the sign about the dogs must have been sitting in the
front row with a good deblurring algorithm.  Speaking of WOPR's, did
anyone notice the name on the bag of the burger the General was
eating?  Burger King.  Oh well, I probably would have wasted those 4
bucks on something else anyway.  My favorite part - at the end when
Merle Jeeter tousles our hero's hair, and then he does the same back
to him.  Do they really give tours of the War Room?

                        - Michel

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 22 Jul 1983 15:57-PDT
Subject: WARGAMES
From: turner@rand-unix

     The writers for WARGAMES came by the other day to do some
research on expert systems.  Their next movie ("Sneakers") is about an
expert system that NASA builds which is subsequently stolen by the
Mafia.  Or some such crazy thing.  At any rate, that is probably only
a germinal idea.

     While they (two fellows, one older, one younger, didn't get their
names) were here they made an interesting statement: they claimed that
the more technically aware a person was, the more possible they
believed the WARGAMES plot was.  I chuckled politely under my breath.

      When I heard they were coming, I prepared to run off copies of
all the recent SF-LOVERS comments on WARGAMES, but the idea was
pooh-poohed by one of my bosses.  Since I'm only a summer intern, I
meekly agreed.  [ To be fair, I was also uncertain about the legal
problems of re-distributing writing from mailing lists. ]

     The writers seemed fairly intelligent, but technically ignorant.
The younger one was also an "accident watcher".  He was always most
interested in what might go wrong. "But this can't handle anything
unusual, can it?"  was a typical question.  He also didn't believe
that an expert system could be as good as a human expert.

     All in all, I wasn't too impressed.  I didn't stay for the whole
encounter, since it was clear that the writers were only hearing what
they wanted to hear.

                                -- Scott Turner
                                        turner@v.ucla --

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 23-Jul-83 13:20:18-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: Nuclear War [Wargames]

Nope, no flames.  This discussion is beginning to cross into the
region of POLI-SCI and out of SF-L, however.  As far as I am
concerned, saying that:

  "The only way to win this game [nuclear war] is not to play."

is about as useful as saying:

  "The only way to stay healthy is not to get sick."

Neither statement suggests a means to the desired end, or how to best
handle the situations that occurred (and will probably continue to
occur) that brought about the undesirable possibility in the first
place.  In other words, if you want to avoid war, saying "To avoid
having a war, don't fight", doesn't suggest any means to deal with the
disagreements, problems, and tensions that presumably brought about
the potential war in the first place.

I am extremely dissatisfied with the current insanity of massive
nuclear buildups.  On the other hand, I sure don't want the U.S.
arbitrarily deciding to dismantle all of our nuclear weapons.  There
are lots of governments out there that aren't nearly as nice as our
own, including rather small countries which might have or attain
nuclear capabilities and are based on fanatical religious beliefs that
might even encourage the use of such weapons.  Remember the hostages?
Can you imagine such a country with nuclear weapons?  It'll probably
happen someday, one way or another.

I'm not saying that massive new missile programs are the answer by any
means -- they seem like a tremendous waste of money to me.  But I
don't pretend to have an answer to the overall questions of how to
avoid war and the potential for nuclear conflicts.

In my opinion, the real danger is not of an accidental fullscale
nuclear war.  More likely a conventional war will get "out of hand"
when one side feels that it is going to lose unless they use some
"tactical" nuclear weapons.  There's no telling what would happen
after that.  It is just unrealistic to hope or expect everyone to
destroy their nuclear weapon capabilities and also "forget" how to
build them in the future!  As long as *anyone* has them, many
governments are going to want them.

As I say, this discussion probably should move over to POLI-SCI if
we're going to continue it in its current direction.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jul 83 2130-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #30
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 26 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 30

Today's Topics:
    Books - King Arthur & Breakaway Station & Stephen Donaldson &
           Patricia MacKillip & Larry Niven & John Norman &
                        Time Paradox Stories,
                      Film - Star Trek (4 msgs),
        General Discussion - USENET Participation in SF Lovers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1983 0912-CDT
From: CMP.TAYLOR@UTEXAS-20
Subject: More Arthur reading

     For those of you interested in seeing the further adventures of
King Arthur, try DC's Camelot 3000 series.  This is printed on high
quality baxter paper and is quite interesting.  The basic plot is that
Arthur is supposed to return in England's greatest hour of need
(according to legend at least) and the time is now.  I highly
recommend it.

     I also enjoyed Mary Stewart's series, "The Crystal Cave", "The
Hollow Hills", and "The Last Enchantment".  A different viewpoint to
the entire affair entirely.

                  cmp.taylor@utexas-20
                  (Tad Taylor)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1983 1255-CDT
From: Kim Korner <CS.KORNER@UTEXAS-20>
Subject: BREAKAWAY STATION

     Can anyone point me at a copy of WE ALL DIED AT BREAKAWAY
STATION?  It is out of print and my local booksellers can't locate an
old copy for me.

        Thanks for any assistance-
                Kim Korner

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 83 22:12:31 EDT
From: /amqueue <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Thomas Covenant

     In my comment about Thomas Covenant, I was comparing the Ramen to
the people in Tolkien who have rapport with horses. I can't remember
the name of the people in Tolkien. I realize that Tolkien "stole"
stuff too, but it seems to me that he crafted the old into something
uniquely his own in many more ways than it was still anyone else's (or
any culture's). I don't think that Donaldson did that. Donaldson had
many good things in his books: the Giants, the Haruchai and
Bloodguard, the Ranyhyn (as opposed to the Ramen), and the Land
itself. I think he could have done better with it, though.

                                ttfn,
                                  /amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 83 15:22:04-EDT (Sun)
From: J.C. Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Riddle of Stars trilogy

     I'd like to point out that the title of the second novel (the one
which was taken exception to) is "Heir of Sea and Fire" (refering to
Raederle), not "Heir of Land and Sea" as someone just wrote.  The
titles of the other two are "Riddle Master of Head" and "Harpist in
the Wind".

     For an amusing non-sf treatment of a person named Deth/Death, see
Dorothy Sayers Lord Peter Wimsey novels (Peter Death Bredon Wimsey),
especially "Murder Must Advertise".

     I was not entirely satisfied with the Riddle of Stars trilogy,
especially the way everything was (or should have been) wrapped up in
the end - it turned out to be very anticlimactic.  But, I must say for
McKillip, that she has managed to incorporate an awful lot of celtic
mythology into her work and makes it work.  Unfortunately, she left
out the celtic humor that should have gone with it.

j.c. patilla

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1983 0145-EDT
From: Arturo Perez <UC.ART at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #26

     The story by Larry Niven on the Transporter is not in the
collection Convergent Series.  Whoever said so is in grave error.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 83 18:06:21-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!steve @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: GOR

     Well......

     The titles go something like "XXXXXX of GOR".

     They should be read starting from volume one (up to about 18
now...)

     If you like sex....AND E.R.Borroughs, you should be ok for about
the first seven or eight volumes.

     THEN.....you'll probably be stuck, like me, waiting for the end
of the story.

steve
ampex, avsd
redwood city,ca

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 83 22:12:31 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Time Paradox Stories

     Speaking of Time Paradox stories (I seem to have missed the
discussion), does anyone know if the book The Man Who Folded Himself
by David Gerrold is still in print? I had it years ago, and think I
lent it out. I haven't seen it in my collection for at least 5-6
years; it came out before 1976. I've looked for it in bookstores since
I noticed it missing, and can't seem to find it.

                                ttfn,
                                  /amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 83 3:20:39-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: could Spock return? - (nf)

     Wasn't that the whole ideal behind the Genesis Project (TWOK).
There you took matter, broke it down to its subatomic parts and then
reassembled it in the more pleasing form of a living planet. Since the
planet they created did not seem to have anything more complex than
plants, then it might be that the amount of information required for
higher forms of life was excessive.

John Eaton

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1983 0901-PDT
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIB
Subject: more on transporters...

Re. David Levine's msg...

     I agree that IF the transporter was that expensive, secret, or
unreliable that it may not be used for the purposes discussed.  But in
"The Trouble With Tribbles" wasn't space station K-7 a civilian
installation?  Maybe it was run by the Federation, but it wasn't a
military base, and there were transporter stations inside.  Also, the
Klingons, etc. have transporters.  The civilian version may not have
the range or penetration through solid objects of a more advanced
military version, but it could do the job described.  At the very
least, raw material could be run through to be reassembled as
dilithium crystals.  Very profitable, posing no risk to life in the
case of a malfunction.  It's a possibility...

steve (carroll@isib)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1983 12:47:06-EDT
From: Scott.Safier at CMU-CS-CAD
Subject: Star Trek (Gene Roddenberry)

     During our term last year, Gene Roddenberry spoke at
Carnegie-Mellon.  To say the least, Star Trek questions were numerous,
and several of the issues recently debated on this bboard were brought
up.

     1) Yes, Spock will be back in future movies, although no one at
that time had figured out how they were going to do it.

     2) Star Trek is a many faceted organization which Gene
Roddenberry has only a small say in.  Such is what happened with the
animated series.  Mr.  Roddenberry was not involved with this group,
and felt that some of the plots that were portrayed were stupid (such
as using the transporter to make people young again).  For this
reason, we believe they will not use this method to "bring Spock
back".

     3) Some other interesting things: Many episodes of Star Trek were
anti-(Vietnam)-war in nature.  In Mr. Roddenberry's own words, "What
the network sensors were too stupid to see in our scripts, the public
saw."

     4) Gene Roddenberry is married to Number 1 (from "The
Menegerie").  This actress later became Nurse Chapel.

That's all for now,
Scott Safier@cmu-cs-cad
Monica Cellio@cmu-cs-c

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 83 22:12:31 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek

     There was at least one Star Trek live action episode that I can
immediately remember in which they use the transporter to fix someone
up. I can't remember the title of the episode, but it was the one in
which Kirk beams up after someone else who had something on their
clothes that frotzed the transporter. Kirk got split into two
people.... one leering, lecherous power-crazed (but not too bright),
and the other gentle and (relatively) intellectual. They eventually
decide that the "dark" and "light" sides must be rejoined, and fix the
transporter to do it. In the meantime, Sulu is down on the planet
freezing, cause they won't beam anyone else up........

                                ttfn,
                                  /amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 25-Jul-83 01:19:41-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: Usenet participation in SF-L

Greetings.  Put simply, I consider Usenet newsgroup interaction with
SF-L to be of high value and I for one would strongly object to any
action aimed at cutting off such interaction.  I disagree totally with
the objections to such participation raised by one person in a
previous digest.  There's room in this digest for all of us.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jul 83 2025-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #31
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jul 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:
       Books - James P. Hogan (3 msgs) & Larry Niven (2 msgs) &
        Fantasy in Arthur and Tolkein and Donaldson (5 msgs),
         General Discussion - USENET and SF-LOVERS (5 msgs),
         General Query - A Call for Help from Robert Forward

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 83 18:58:38-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!tom @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan

     I like Hogan's attempts at scientific accuracy.  If they are not
totally accurate, they are close enough for me.  Consistency is what
counts.

     What bothers me about his works are his human, psychological, and
emotional inaccuracies.  Good guys are ultra-good, and ultra-smart,
too.  Bad guys are the opposite.  Not only are his characters a bit
shallow, but his societies are too!  His idealism, while noble, is
naieve enough to make me blush -- more important, it injects a
substantial amount of disbelief into the story.

     Actually, that is my complaint about most science fiction --
after spending all the effort to make the science credible, individual
characters and society are shallow, stereoptyped, and portrayed in an
unbelievable manner.

     Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Hogan's works, and I enjoy sf.
However, it is the stories which use strange new worlds, characters,
and situations to point out or develop a point of psychological/
emotional insight (even if it is non-human) that I cherish.  Ursala
LeGuin's (sp?) "Left Hand Side of Darkness" was such a book.  I need
more.  Anyone got some to recommend?

- Tom Beres
{seismo, allegra, brl-bmd, we13, mcnc}!rlgvax!tom

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 83 3:12:53-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: James P. Hogan, anyone? - (nf)

     I've been waiting for a mention of James P. Hogan in
net.sf-lovers.

     Anyone care to comment on his books?  I've read and enjoyed them,
but enough about my tastes.  Perhaps some of Hogan's tales are
appropriate reading for "Libertarian SF" fans.

     Hogan's latest, "Voyage from Yesteryear," is somewhat different
from his earlier works (the Giants, etc.) which speculate about the
origin of humanity on Earth, among other things. It seems to continue
the trend seen in "The Genesis Machine" and "Thrice Upon a Time."
(along with "The Two Faces of Tomorrow").  "Voyage...," however, seems
to outdo all Hogan's others in describing what human society could be
like if technology is used properly.

     Feel welcome to reply to me by mail, although I'd like to see a
short discussion on the net.

                                Marion Hakanson
                        {hp-pcd,teklabs}!orstcs!hakanson

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 83 3:13:07-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Hogan review (nonspoiler) - (nf)

     I've thus far received 3 letters regarding James P. Hogan, and
more may be on their way.  Some have asked for my opinion on his
writing, so here it is (no spoilers, I think):

     Hogan doesn't have the smooth style of some of the "greats" such
as Frank Herbert, et.al. (my opinion -- no flames please), but his
works are of the type that I classify as having the world carry the
story rather than the literary style.  Anne McCaffrey & Stephen
Donaldson are of this ilk -- they have good but not excellent writing
style & skill, such that they are quite readable, but they are not as
smooth as those authors whose prose is more pleasing.

     There are other authors whose styles capture us but whose
"worlds" bite the big one.  And there are the greats who do both very
well.  Personally, if I can't have "great," I'll settle for those with
interesting, cohesive worlds over those with only pleasing style.
Perhaps I went a bit far in saying Donaldson's style is "good," but I
happen to think his world is interesting enough (in places) to keep me
reading.  After all, the interesting worlds are what separate F&SF
from other fiction, right?

     Back to Hogan.  As I said, I feel that Hogan's style may not be
the best, but he is a relatively new author, and I think he'll improve
with practice.  Until then, I'll still read everything he comes out
with as long as his worlds are as good as they have been, and they
have been excellent.

     I'm not sure I have a favorite -- it depends on my mood.  I guess
that I'd place them all at pretty much the same level.  For enjoyment,
I really liked The Two Faces of Tomorrow.  One of my favorite (funny)
scenes occurs in the aftermath of the big battle, where one of the
officers tells how Napoleon's officers wore red uniforms to keep the
blood from showing if they were wounded (bad for morale).  He said
something to the effect that "I sure was glad I was wearing brown
pants when we came around the corner and ran into all those (hostile)
robots!"

     For comments on society, I'd have to vote for Voyage from
Yesteryear.  The society of the Chironians is admittedly impossible to
consider evolving here on Earth.  Only in the perfect isolation that
Hogan provides could such a thing come to pass, and even then
conditions would have to be perfect.  I, for one, would really like to
live in such a society.  It seems to carry the notion of Freedom to
its logical extreme, almost as if American society took another step,
from where it is today, of the size it took when it split from
England.

     Hogan even relates the Chironians to the Colonists in the New
World, e.g. in a quote of some visiting British aristocrat commenting
on Americans being "so disgustingly equal."  Such freedom that the
Chironians have is as nearly incomprehensible to us as that of our
forefathers must have been to the British "establishment."  It is
difficult enough to understand that one almost has to reread the book
from the societal viewpoint, rather than from the enjoyment angle.
Yet only once did Voyage seem to lose momentum in the enjoyment
department, and that was because it was difficult to follow the
physics of "tweedles," etc.  But that kind of thing can happen to any
author, and I'd rather s/he at least *try* to explain things, instead
of just making them happen magically.  Even magic has to be explained
to a certain extent (for me)!

     I also really enjoyed the Giants' series, as well as The Genesis
Machine and Thrice Upon a Time (any book that starts over twice as
well as this one does is remarkable).  But I've run off at the
keyboard long enough.  I have to go to the bookstore to see if any new
Hogan books have come out.  Anyone heard of any?

Marion Hakanson
hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 83 11:09:01 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Larry Niven's Teleportation article

     Larry Niven's article on teleportation (called "Exercise in
Speculation: The Theory and Practice of Teleportation") is in the
short story collection "All The Myriad Ways".  There is also an
interesting article called "The Theory and Practice of Time Travel" in
the same collection.

ds

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 83 9:35:02-EDT (Tue)
From: J.C. Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Niven

     Wasn't Niven's Transporter piece in the collection "All the
Myriad Ways", along with the short story of that title, as well as
"Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" and (my personal favorite) "What Do
You Do with a Chocolate-Covered Manhole Cover ?"  ?

j.c. patilla

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 83 16:40:46 EDT
From: GARFINKEL@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: ARTHUR

     Another interesting variation of the King Arthur theme can be
found in the novel FIRELORD by Parke Godwin.  This came out about a
year ago in paperback so it should still be findable.  The Britain
described seems (at least to me with my somewhat limited historical
knowledge) to be a more histroically accurate one than is usual.
Magic does not exist (with the effect, among others, of virtually
wiping Merlin out of the legend).  But, all of the old friends are
there.  It appears as if the author's intention was to figure out a
way in which the legend just *might* really have been possible to
happen and then write a good story of it.  The characterizations tend
to be good with everyone showing both a good side and a dark side
(well, with the possible exception of Morgana who seems to be almost
totally [surprise!!!] good.  I enjoyed the book as a very well-written
"variation-on-a-theme" with an emphasis both on variation and theme.
It is certainly worth at least its paperback price.

                                  Mark Waser
                                  GARFINKEL@RUTGERS.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1983 2105-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Gds@MIT-XX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #11

     As I recall, Bombadil's purpose was to be a "friend in need" for
the hobbits when they entered the Old Forest and were captured by a
tree.  According to a book I read (the Complete Guide to
Middle-Earth), Bombadil was considered to be a Maia, that is why he
was not affected by the Ring.

-------

     About the Sword of Shannara -- at first, it seems like a LotR
copy, but it gets better later in the book.  I liked the character of
Panamon Creel -- he reminds me of Han Solo a bit, being an adventurer.

--Greg

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 1983 1439-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX>
Subject: The horse-people in Tolkein's Lord of the Rings...

     were called the Rohirrim, also the "riders of Rohan" (Rohan was
the name of their land).

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1983 2249-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Gds@MIT-XX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #17

Subject: Thomas Covenant

     I hate to disillusion people, but Stephen Donaldson took A LOT
from Tolkien. There is the people from whom Gandalf takes a prize
horse (I can't remember their name); Covenant takes one of the Ranyhyn
from the Ramen. Ravers are like mobile Balrogs. Sauron has the
Palantir, and can keep track of the Ring like Foul kept track of
Covenant through his boots. And at least one word (that I could find)
is taken directly from Quenya, the language of the High Elves: "orc"
is Quenya for "heart"; "orcrest" is the word for Earthstone.

     I had read the First Thomas Covenant trilogy before I read LotR,
and liked it a lot. Then I read the Ring trilogy and realized how much
was snarfed. I don't know enough Quenya to do a serious study of the
elements of the language that Donaldson took, but I think that was the
most unfair thing he did.

     I agree totally.  The Ranyhyn reminded me of the Mearas (Horses
of Rohan) too.  The griffin seems to be what the Nazgul rode (winged
beasts).

     One correction.  Sauron couldn't actually locate Frodo with the
palantir.  (Or he didn't try.)  Instead, he used the palantir to
deceive Denethor, to communicate with Saruman in Orthanc and to survey
his armies.  I don't believe he could actually locate the Ring, or he
would have seen it in Cirith Ungol or somewhere between there and
Mount Doom.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jul 83 11:49 CDT
From: Sanchez.DLOS@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #30

     I have read both of the Thomas Covenant trilogies and have found
them very interesting.  Donaldson did a tremendous job in keeping up
with all his characters in each of the six books.  I think that the
majority of writers "borrow" ideas from other people and just refine
those ideas to make their writings more complete.  I commend Donaldson
in the job well done with the two trilogies of Thomas Covenant the
Unbeliver.

Sanchez

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Jul 83 04:48:39-EDT
From: Mike Inners  <INNERS@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Usenet submissions

     I for one vote to KEEP all of our feed streams.  I don't share
the objections voiced in the digest.  The volume's not overwhelming
yet.

                        -- Mike Inners

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 83 12:02 EDT
From: David Axler <Axler.UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Usenet/SFL interaction

     In general, I agree with Lauren Weinstein as to assigning a high
value to interaction twixt ourselves and Usenet.  However, I agree
fully with one problem raised by an earlier commentator: Usenet
messages tend to come with their 'answers', which in turn tends to
inhibit further commentary.  Perhaps there's a way around this, though
it'll almost certainly mean more work for the sfl administrator, such
as separating initial messages from responses and entering them in two
successive sfl issues.

Dave Axler
(Axler.UPenn@UDel-Relay)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1983 18:16:51-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: usenet submissions

     On the contrary.

     Handing an allegedly closed topic to a new bunch of flamers
sometimes will not generate flames (in which case the good of the net
is served); more often, it will simply generate fresh responses. I
don't think you're "secretary types" are typical. (My understanding is
that the net material is drawn from a high-traffic point, which means
that in fact pieces often appear in SFL before a lot of usenet people
have answered them.)

     Having net-sf forwarded to non-unix sites is a problem because of
the irregular and fragmented flow of material; this is why SFL is a
digest rather than a distribution list.

     Finally (and perhaps foremost) I \\MUCH// prefer having the
material in some sort of sortedness---enough that I turned off net.sf
as soon as SFL came back. DO keep in the usenet material.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1983 18:20:53-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: usenet again (piece left off)

     As a usenet member I note that the moderator is also picking up
net.movies whenever there is material relevant to SF (e.g. WARGAMES,
SW). I see no objection to this, especially since such material
commonly winds up in its own digests which people can skip over if
they aren't interested.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1983 2133-PDT
From: FORWARD@USC-ECL
Subject: CAD help

     I need someone who has access to a CAD machine to make a picture
of the "Christmas Bush" in "ROCHEWORLD" for me.  Please respond to
RLFORWARD@ECLA.

     Bob Forward

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jul 83 2136-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #32
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jul 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 32

Today's Topics:
     Film - The Revenge of the Jedi (6 msgs) & WarGames (4 msgs)
















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1983 10:02:04 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.)
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi

     Revenge of the Jedi: I hadn't planned on entering this
discussion, but there's been one little thing that I've been
wondering; maybe I've just missed a detail somewhere along the path of
the three movies, but if not, there's a definite flaw.  The problem is
this: I can't recall a point in any of the films where one of Luke's
mentors (Han, Leia, OB1, Yoda, etc.)  actually told him that the
Emperor was capable of using the force.  All the poor kid hears about
is the danger of Darth Vader, master of the Dark Side of the Force.
The audience discovers the Emperor's powers early on, but I can't find
a place where Luke ever gets this info.  I can't really believe he
wasn't told, as this would imply that all these people who were
guiding him were also misleading him.  Would someone care to clarify
this problem?

--Dave Axler
(Axler.UPenn@UDel-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 83 13:04:04-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-ivax!nmtvax!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RE: the other...etc.

"Other" flame:

     In response to the latest article on the net concerning whether
Leia is the other or not, I must agree that if she is the other
absolutely no use of it was made in the entire movie.  This was a
great disappointment for me since I expected that the 'Other' would
probably be the one who would supprise Vader and turn the tables on
the Empire when he/she showed up in ROTJ.  A unknown Jedi suddenly on
the scene would have really given the Emp and Vader a heart attack.
They didn't kill off all the Jedi for no reason before they took over
the galaxy you know.  Look what one well placed Jedi can accomplish in
the case of Darth Vader.

Vader vs. Skywalker:

     By far I thought the best part of the movie was the play between
Vader and Son and the Emperor.  The Emperor was well played and came
across like the prince of darkness incarnate.  I felt that the scene
were Luke is captured and he and Vader talk was not well played
though.  It just didn't seem real to put Vader in any other character
frame than his normal mean and nasty side.  Two, I wish they had never
unmasked Vader.  Maybe they could have gotten round this by having
Vader and the Emperor destroy each other.  The whole time the Emperor
was shooting the bolts into Luke and Vader was looking so confused I
kept waiting for Luke's light saber to suddenly appear in Vader's
other hand and for him to take care of the Emp then and there.  Vader
had been planning on killing the Emperor and taking the galaxy for
himself and that would have seemed like a really good time.  What
would have happened between Vader and Luke after that while the Death
Star II was being blown to little pieces all around them would have
been interesting!

General flames:

     I was disappointed that Han was little more than background
scenery in this movie and I thought he would have grown more after
what we saw in Empire.  There were far too many muppets and I almost
get the impression that the movie was changed quite a bit after it was
finalized that it was going to be made.  Seems to deviate from the
norm so much that its like the studio exectutives had a little too
much to say about the story line.  The special effects were very bad
and rushed.  Maybe they should have delayed the release date and given
the guys the time they needed to get the effects put together well.
Every one would have gone to see the movie even if it opened in the
worst time of the year, whenever that is.

     All in all I liked the movie, but I don't think it lived up to
the hints they tried to throw around too well.

               Tim Tucker
               ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!tim       (uucp)
               tim.nmt@rand-relay             (Arpa)
               tim@nmt                        (Cs net)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 83 22:12:31 EDT
From: [/amqueue <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi

     To corect Mark Bales, when Luke figures out that Leia is his
sister, Ob1 says "Your insight serves you well." not "Your inside
serves you well."

                                ttfn,
                                  /amaque

------------------------------

Date: 21 July 1983 08:32 cdt
From: Bibbero.PMSDMKT
Subject: ROTJ, Wagner's Ring, Death Star, and Anakin

     Re Wagner's Ring, I think the most significant analogy in ROTJ is
the reforging of the Father's (Wotan"s) sword by Seigfried and the
similar reconstruction of the light sabre by Luke.  Wotan broke the
sword in a struggle to impose his will on Seigmund (actually to kill
him) and the reforging by son Seigfried was the true test of his being
a Volsung -- a superman.  The Niebelungen dwarfs, even though they
were the most skilled smiths in their world, could not reforge the
sword because they did not have the Volsung spirit, the Force!  As far
as the hint of incest with Leia is concerned, this might not have been
intended by Lucas.  As far as derivation is concerned, how much of an
intellectual is Lucas?  Is he an opera-goer?

     I am baffled by the question from menlo70 at sri about "who is
the economy? (in ROTJ)" In the recently televised performance of the
Ring cycle by the Metropolitan Opera, the plot was cast in a Victorian
time frame with overtures of "the fall of Capitalism" (e.g., Marxist
theory) of which Valhalla was the metaphor.  The ruler of the economy
-- the chief capitalist, was obviously Wotan.  "All treaties are
written on my spear," he sings.  The Chief of the Empire, the Emperor,
would be the head of the economy in the ROTJ version.

     Just a word on the shape of the Death Star.  As any chemical or
mechanical engineer knows, the most economical shape of a pressure
vessal is a sphere.  (You see spherical protane tanks in oil
refineries quite often.)  A space vehicle or satellite is a pressure
vesel and benefits from minimum surface to reduce danger of leakage.

     I must get my 2 cents worth in on the name Anakin.  If Lucas's
sister is named Anna, and she is his kin, why not immortalize her with
the name Anakin?  (Joke.)

Cheers - Bob Bibbero (Bibbero.PMSDMKT)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 83 16:12:06-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!avsdT.yawitz @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: rain in ROtJ

     Has anyone noticed the 'drizzle' in the scenes where Vader exits
from his shuttle in the landing bay?  I initially thought it was a
scractched print, but the effect has been noticed in no less than 4
prints, so I suspect it was intentional.  The effect was present in
some other scenes as well (perhaps with the emperor...I'm not sure).

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 0:24:18-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!billh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Is Leia the Other? - (nf)

  <<  4) Obi-wan then tells Luke `your inside serves you well'.  >>


     It's "insight" not "inside"...

                        - Billh

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1983 2151-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Gds@MIT-XX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #13

     I was not aware that CSN's War Games was the Theme from War
Games.  Does anyone know this for a fact?

--gregbo

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 1983 11:38:41-EDT
From: Eric.Patterson at CMU-CS-H

     To answer the question about the helicopter:

     I felt the reason they rode a jeep in was the same reason the U.
S.  Army couldn't get into its own military base in Strangelove:
because its own men were preventing it.  NORAD was a top-security
complex, and so a helicopter flying into it would be shot down.  But
not a jeep with army personnel in it (as was the case).  That's why
the helicopter was not flown into the military base.  I know the
filmmakers took a lot of liberties to make the film more exciting, but
this was not one of them.

     Lauren-

     The point of the movie was not that we, the audience, realize
that nuclear war is futile.  The point was for the computer, which was
programmed to try to win the nuclear war, which could not realize the
possibility of losing, to realize that nuclear war "is an interesting
game.  There are no winners."  If the computer doesn't realize this,
the world will be destroyed.  That is why the ending was so riveting.
So entertaining.  Yes, entertaining.  You have spent a whole summer
ripping apart unpretentious entertainment like WarGames, and left
films more worthy of criticism unscathed.  So what if WarGames is not
realistic?  Are James Bond films realistic?  Is Flashdance?  Are any
films real?

     I didn't go into WarGames expecting to be filled with fascinating
in- sight into nuclear war.  And when I left, I left satisfied that my
$4 had been well spent.  I felt I had seen something more entertaining
than such highly touted films as Return of the Jedi.

     Too bad you were so caught up in technical details.  You missed a
damned good film.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 83 21:39:32 PDT (Tuesday)
From: JLarson.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: WARGAMES

        "Do they really give tours of the War Room?"

     Yup. (Surprised me too !)

     According to Larry Lasker and Walter Parkes (scriptwriters for
War Games) they went on a tour (organized for LA civic leaders) of
"Crystal Palace".

     Other tid-bits from hearing these two in person:

     *There apparently IS a computer (albeit underground at SAC rather
than online at NORAD) which plays WWIII full time with the SIOP
(Stategic Integrated Operation Plan) that inspired WOPR.

     *Pieces of the movie ARE technically accurate.  (ie. the
Minuteman launching sequence, .. rest left as an exercise ..)

     *They make a point that given the short response time (6 minutes,
worst case) in case of a nuclear attack, we are in effect already
dependent on "programmed response" although not all of it is in a
computer.

     *The Prof. Falken character was inspired (somehow) by the
physicist Stephen Hawkins.

     *They have seen (and enjoyed) the SF-LOVERS Digest flames about
the movie.

     *Their new movie will pit the Mafia vs the NSA (National Security
Agency).  They have been getting LOTS of technical help and advice,
but it's an open question as to how much of this will get into the
movie given the Holywood process ..

John

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 83 2039-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #33
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 33

Today's Topics:
    Books - David Brin & Stephen Donaldson & Robert A. Heinlein &
                       J.R.R. Tolkien (2 msgs),
                          Film - Star Trek,
                       Television - Doctor Who,
                           Comics - Ronin,
           General Discussion - The S.F. Book Club & SCA &
        Stereotypes in Science Fiction--Robots, Computers and
                      Mad Scientists and Hackers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1983 9:58-PDT
From: dietz%usc-cse@USC-ECL
Subject: Sundiver exhaust laser

     I don't think Brin's laser exhaust could cool the Sundiver.  A
laser beam has near zero entropy.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 83 19:49:35-PDT (Tue)
From: TOPAZ.fantods @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Donaldson

     Did Donaldson actually name something, or someone, "ramen"?  If
so, was this an intentional funny-bit about cheap japanese noodle soup
or just another of his gloriously inane linguistic excesses?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 08:22:42 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Goodell.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Heinlein

     Would someone fill me in on why Heinlein is so popular.  I'm not
an SF expert but I've read an awful lot of good stuff.  What I
consider to be good stuff includes Asimov, Phillip K Dick, R A
Lafferty, Roger Zelasney, Robert Silverberg, Alfred Bester, and the
author of The Crystal World (although I can't remember his name).
Everything I've read by these authors has been highly entertaining,
and generally the authors' statements have been well enough hidden to
preserve the readability of the story.

     Well, sometime last month, I decided that in order to be a real
SF-LOVER I had better read some Heinlein.  I started with Farnham's
Freehold.  Was that supposed to be a joke?  Sure it was quick and
entertaining but so is a comic book.  It seemed to me that Heinlein
must have changed his mind repeatedly as to what he was writing about.
It starts with a nuclear holocaust; next comes a lot of mundane
chapters about a bunch of people running around nude in an uninhabited
paradise (these chapters seem strongly influenced by Earth Abides).
So far it's not too bad, but after about a year in paradise, these
people are taken into custody by a black race that has taken over the
world.  These people use whites for slaves, castrate everyone over the
age of 18, and to top it all off, they're cannibals.  At the end of
the book, Heinlein decides to add yet another element of hokey science
fiction, by having the hero and his adultress return home via a time
machine.  Pure art, eh?

     After reading this book, I figured I must have stumbled onto one
of his poorer works, so I read what I had understood to be one of the
few real SF classics - Stranger in a Strange Land.  When I was halfway
through the book, I forgave Heinlein for Farnham's Freehold.  The
story of a modern-day Martian- human come to earth was extremely
fast-paced and very well thought out.  Heinlein was very consistent
and believable in his portrayal of the Martian's introduction to
humanity.  He very effectively, yet subtly, pointed out most of man's
less attractive idiosynchrosies through the eyes of the naive
Valentine Michael Smith.  However, for me, the book ended as soon as
Smith's accounts had been settled by his friend, Jubal.  Everything
had been cleared up - the loose ends had been tied.  There was no room
for any more suspense, mystery, or action.  The Martian was free to
fully adapt to human culture.  It was like one of those books you
never want to end; the only difference was that this one didn't.  For
some reason, Heinlein used the next 200 pages as a guide to his
version of interstellar philosophy.  Actually I couldn't figure out if
Heinlein believed the same things that Smith did, or whether he was
just writing for lack of anything better to do. Maybe I missed
something, but wasn't it kind of silly for Heinlein to dedicate
several portions of this book to glimpses into heaven, where we saw
God (Foster) and his angels hard at work influencing the ways of man?
This would have been fine if it had had undertones of irony or
sarcasm, but it didn't.

     I guess what I can't figure out is whether Heinlein is supposed
to be a serious writer or a writer of junk or a cynical, sarcastic
writer using his books as propaganda for his own beliefs.  I would
appreciate it if somebody would tell me, because then I would know in
what light to read his books.  I have been very disappointed by
Heinlein so far, because he always turns the tables one time too
often.  He starts off a book by getting his reader thoroughly
involved, and then it's as if he laughs in the reader's face by making
a serious story into something else.

                Confused and disappointed,
                        Jeremy Goodell   (Goodell.es)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 10:08:25-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!hou5f!hou5e!mat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Lord of the Rings

     "One correction.  Sauron couldn't actually locate Frodo with the
palantir.  (Or he didn't try.)  Instead, he used the palantir to
deceive Denethor, to communicate with Saruman in Orthanc and to survey
his armies.  I don't believe he could actually locate the Ring, or he
would have seen it in Cirith Ungol or somewhere between there and
Mount Doom."
        -------
     I believe that Gandalf makes it quite clear that Sauron, if he
only looked, would see the Ring moving back into his own land.  It is
for this reason that Aragorn looks into the Palintir; it is for this
reason that Gandalf and Aragorn march hopelessly right to the gates of
the Dark Lord, vastly outnumbered and facing a fortress.  Saurons
attention MUST at all costs be drawn westward.  When Frodo put the
Ring on, the Lidless Eye was drawn to him immediately.  The Palintir
could have seen the Ring only if it had ben brought before that stone.

                                Is JRRT really SciFi?
                                        Mark Terribile
                                        Duke of deNet

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jul 83 09:39 CDT
From: Howard.DLOS@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Tolkien

     It seems unfair to me that many individuals can't seem to read a
book with a setting anything near to "middle earth" without accusing
the writer of plagiarism.  Just look at all of the sf stories based on
other worlds. There are many cases where one writer may borrow some
parts from another, but nobody complains about that.  Maybe its
because Tolkien was clearly the first major writer for his type of
setting whereas no one really stands out as the first space fiction
writer. Ok maybe some of the names sound familiar, but those types of
names sort of fit into that kind of setting.  If anyone can expect a
fantasy writer to be great without having read Tolkien and been
influenced by his works then they are living in a fantasy.  It seems
to me that too many readers have been spoiled by Tolkien and try to
rip apart every book that attempts to surpass LoTR.

DAH

------------------------------

Date: 28 JUL 1983 0407 EDT
From: BUTLER at MIT-DMS
Subject: The Transporter; why it can't do that

     If you were to use the recorded pattern of a man to reconstitute
him at a younger age, why would he "remember" anything that had
happened to him since that recording was made? None of those things
happened to him; as a result, he would be in the position of the main
character of a John Varley novel (The Barbie Murders, I think) in
which the central figure has paid to have a recording of his(her?)
personality made, in case he/she dies. S/he does die, and when the
clone comes out with the imprinted memories of its original, it does
not know what events led to its original's death. When the clone is
murdered, its successor is in the same boat, since it is given the
same memories #2 was given. As a result, #3 knows that numbers 1 and 2
have been mur- dered, but does not have their interpretations of
events, which would help #3 figure out what is happening.

     Now, as I recall, those animated episodes had people being
restored to youth AND remembering things that never happened to the
recorded version of the character. Humph.

     As regards Gene Roddenberry's attitude toward this use of the
transporter, it is all well and good to say "No, you cannot do that
for dramatic (or any other) reasons, but it is too late. The djinn is
out of the bottle. If the transporter can record a man's pattern long
enough to reassemble him on a planetary surface, there is no reason
that pattern could not be recorded permanently. The pattern can't be
too complex or gargatious in space requirements for the computer to
handle, or the transporter wouldn't function in the first place.

     The problems resulting from the opening of this can of planaria
are enough to drive a man to drink (or Reformed Sufiism).

--RL "verbosity is ITS own reward" Butler

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 20:41:21-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!andie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Doctor Who

     I was able to get to the Whovian Tour in Philadelphia, where they
showed 'An Unearthly Child', 'Death to the Daleks', and 'The King's
Demons', all of which I enjoyed.  Plus, they showed the pilot for 'K-9
and Company', which is unfortunately not going to be made into a
series.  The premise is that the Doctor leaves K-9 Mark 3 in the attic
of Sarah Jane Smith's house in Croyden, and she and K-9 and a
cousin(?) of hers, who happens to be a computer whiz, go off on all
sorts of adventures.  If you're used to 'screaming Sarah', you'll find
she's changed for the better.

     Jon Pertwee (3rd Doctor) and Elisabeth Sladen (Sarah Jane Smith)
were the guest stars, and both of them are really marvelous speakers
and very interesting people.

     There were lots of things sold, all very expensive (T-shirts for
$10.00, scarves for $60.00 and up), but the admission price of $10.00
was well worth it.  If this tour comes to your area, GO!!

                        Diane Donaldson
                        ...seismo!rlgvax!cvl!andie

------------------------------

Date: 28 JUL 1983 0509 EDT
From: BUTLER at MIT-DMS
Subject: RONIN

     I have noticed Camelot 3000 in my area comic shops, and I haven't
been particularly interested. Much MORE interesting is Frank Miller's
RONIN, which has a beautifully drawn post-holocaustal New York, as
well as a fascinating story (if you like demons, magic, masterless
samurai, super-high tech, and a teeny-tiny little smidgeon of violence
[ahem]).  Of course, I stopped reading Arthur/Merlin/Camelot fiction
after I read Mary Stewart's trilogy. I don't think that any other
version would be as satisfying, since I started with that one.  So,
you see, this wasn't about Camelot 3000. Its a cleverly diguised plug
for RONIN.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1983 11:01:09 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.)
Subject: SF Book Club

     There are a number of pros and cons to the SF Book Club.  They
offer a chance to pick up a fair number of books (some of which are
first hardback publications, no less) at reasonable prices.  However,
their bindings are not the best quality, and you can expect a maximum
shelf life of 10-20 years.  You have to be pretty good at answering
your mail on time, since they use the system whereby you must let them
know that you *DON'T* want their two monthly selections, or they'll
automatically mail them (this, by the way, is not true for European
members, because they don't want problems with mail delays).

Dave Axler
(Axler.UPenn@UDel-Relay)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1983 12:48:28-EDT
From: Jim.Washburn at CMU-CS-CAD
Subject: SCA

     The SCA does not limit itself to any specific time period, it is
simply that most of the members are into the Middle Ages.  The choice
of persona and interest is completly up to each person.  If more
people who are interested in Tokagawa Japan or other periods would
join the SCA then it would become more generalized, more anacronistic
than it presently is.  I am a member of a splinter group associated
with them known as the Tuchux.  We are roughly based on the Tuchucks
of the Gor series, and the early German tribes of the pre-Roman Empire
times.  This is not the Middle Ages.  The best way to generate
interest in different periods is to join the SCA and try to generate
it yourself instead of waiting for others to do it.  That is how the
Tuchux evolved and became one of the most feared forces in SCA
military campaigns.  At last years War between the East and Middle
Kingdoms the Tuchux were the deciding factor in every battle and were
awarded the War Banner.  There were only 60 of us too, but we cowed
hundreds and beat the cream of the fighters of both kingdoms.  But
enough rambling the point was that you should join the SCA and try to
build a group suited to your tastes and maybe succeed like us.  Somday
maybe I will meet a group of Tokagawa Samurai on the battle field, I
will of course slay them but it would be interesting.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 28 Jul 83 08:40:13-PDT
From: Bill Park <PARK@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: [Park: A.I. in Sci Fi]

     Do you have a favorite gripe about the way scientists, computers,
robots, or artificial intelligence are portrayed on tv shows?  Send
them to me and I will forward them on Monday August 1 to an
honest-to-God tv-show writer who is going to write that kind of show
soon and would like to do it right.

Bill Park, EJ239
SRI International
333 Ravenswood Avenue
Menlo Park, CA  94025

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 83 2052-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #34
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 34

Today's Topics:
        Film - Twilight Zone:  The Movie (9 msgs) (SPOILERS) &
                    WarGames (4 msgs) (SPOILERS) &
              The Return of the Jedi (2 msgs) (SPOILERS)


















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1983 0204-EDT
From: Nessus at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC (Doug Alan)
Subject: It's a Good Life

     "Incidentally, the short story that "The Cornfield" was based on
is very good.  Anyone remember the title/author?"

     The story is called "It's a Good Life" (it's by Jerome Bixby).
Yes, it's a really great short story (though they really messed it up
in the TZ movie) and can be found in many collections of classic SF
short stories.

                        -Doug Alan

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 7-Jul-83 22:21:21 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: TZ "Cornfield" episode

The "Twilight Zone" episode in question, which starred a very young
Billy Mumy (who would later spend much time with "Dr. Smith" on "Lost
in Space") was entitled "It's a Good Life".  The screenplay was
derived from the short story "It's a GOOD Life" ("GOOD" in italics) by
Jerome Bixby, copyright 1953.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Fri 8 Jul 83 12:04:36-EDT
From: Dragon <CELLIO@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Twilight Zone Movie

     Three of the four segments are based on original episodes; the
other segment is new.  The original episodes were called "Kick the
Can", "It's a Good Life", and "Nightmare at 20,000 Feet".

                                        Monica

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1983  11:54 EDT (Mon)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: Twilight Zone the Movie (Semi-Spoiler)

     I thank Scott Turner for the very interesting information that at
least the last three vignettes in the TZ movie were remakes of TV
episodes.  I had already noticed that the third vignette was a
take-off of the excellent short story "The Cornfield" (the author of
which I also can't remember right now).

     The knowledge that the last two are remakes, however, does not
change my mind about the first two being more TZ-like.  One could
easily imagine a novel or even a short story that is made into a movie
by two different people.  Furthur suppose that the original work was
well-done and contained both good characterization as well as theme
and plot.  Now the movie makers that converts the work, naturally
under time pressure because the entire work cannot be directly
presented, must start to make choices.  Should the movie concentrate
on plot, characters, themes, descriptions, or maybe all of them to a
lesser depth (probably a particularly bad choice)?  My contention is
that, given these choices, someone trying to make a low-budget TV
series might well concentrate more on characterization and theme and
less on plot and especialy description.  The plot and its twists are
only carried as far as they relate to and affect the characters and
theme.  Now in a movie with a larger budget, one might consider
spending more on the plot and especially description in the form of
sets and special effects.  Overall, it is the same story, just
presented differently.

     Just these type of choices were made in the filming of TZ the
movie.  The first two directors chose to stick to the types of choices
made in the TV series.  The first two vignettes concentrated on
characterization and theme.  The second two had less characterization
and concentrated more on description.  Therefore, although possibly
all (at least three) of the vignettes were originally TZ episodes, the
first two still have the "FEEL" of the TV series, while the latter two
do not (as much).

Greg

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1983 17:24:43-EDT
From: John McLean <mclean@NRL-CSS>
Subject: "Twilight Zone"

     I finally saw "Twilight Zone" and want some confirmation about
something I think I heard.  In the first episode, I thought I heard
one of the American soldiers in Vietnam say something along the lines
of "I wish we hadn't gotten rid of Needlemere".  I can't remember the
name or the exact quote for sure, but at the time, it occurred to me
that he may have been referring to the ROTC guy in "Animal House" who
was listed as being killed by his own troups in Vietnam.  Did anybody
else pick up on this?  I'm I imagining things?

     By the way, I also thought that the first episode was the most
"Twilight Zone"-like in some ways, even though it was the only one not
based on an original "Twilight Zone" episode.  The others were too
flashy.  One reason for this may be that the others had to be changed
somewhat to add a touch of spice.

John

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 83 11:23:46-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!nbires!ut-ngp!ables @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Twilight Zone the Movie (Semi-Spoiler)

     Two of the episodes of the movie are direct remakes of existing
TV episodes with slightly altered endings.  The other two movie
episodes are loosly based on old TV episodes.  The one with the
powerful boy is a new version of one with Billy Mumy playing a boy
that kept a whole town in fear of his powers (did you notice Billy
Mumy in the cafe in the movie??).  The first piece of the movie I
think comes from an episode where an American soldier wants to go into
a cave and kill all the helpless wounded Japanese soldiers he knows
are there, while some of his soldiers say: Can't we just leave 'em,
they're not going to hurt us.  Then things reverse and he's in a group
of Japanese soldiers that want to go in and kill American soldiers in
a cave and he says: Can't we just leave 'em, they're not going to hurt
us?  The one in the movie suffers a little from not having really been
finished, but all things considered, not bad.  I suggest you consult
the Twilight Zone Companion for authors and actors in the old
episodes, it's an excellent book.  If you don't have/can't get a copy,
I'll be glad to respond through mail to anyone wanting info on an
episode.

-king UUCP:...nbires!ut-ngp!ables ARPA:ables@utexas-11

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 83 7:25:23-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscd5!trb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Twilight Zone the Movie (Semi-Spoiler)

     The "Cornfield" segment in TZ is from the 1953 short story "It's
a Good Life" by Jerome Bixby. Mr. Bixby also wrote a number of the
Star Trek series scripts. A copy of this story can be found in "The
Science Fiction Hall of Fame Vol. 1".

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 83 22:27:46-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekcad!franka @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Twilight Zone the Movie (Semi-Sp - (nf)

     The little boy who played the original "Anthony" on The Twilight
Zone episode was Billy Mumy (who later went on to "Lost in Space").

                                Frank Adrian

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 83 0:47:48-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!security!presby!burdvax!bmcjmp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Twilight Zone the Movie (Semi-Sp - (nf)

     As a matter of fact, Billy Mumy was in that particular segment of
the movie.  He played the young man in the bar who didn't get mad at
Anthony. Ironic sympathy, probably.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 83 00:14:07 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: WARGAMES and NORAD

     I just noticed a message that reminded me of something that
bothered me in the movie.  As far as I know, there are no tours of
NORAD Command Headquarters.  I know that my source for this
information is not all that good and would like to know if anyone
knows for sure.

ds

------------------------------

Date: 28 JUL 1983 0348 EDT
From: BUTLER at MIT-DMS
Subject: FLAME ON (just a small one)

     As far as Lauren Weinstein is concerned, saying that "the only
way to win this game [nuclear war] is not to play" is about as useful
as saying "the only way to stay healthy is not to get sick."

     Very good. You have just stated, in a roundabout way, that we may
all be vaporized next morning because of events beyond human control.

     A human being is only in control of a few of the variables that
govern his health, such as diet, exercise, and some common sense
decisions, like not visiting Botswana while the Black Plague is
visiting Botswana. I believe that human beings are in complete control
of the Instrumentality of Nuclear War.

     Humans make the judgements and activate the missiles, and will
continue to do so for some time. We will not be annihilated in the
morning because of the flu; we MIGHT be gone because "we" decided to
"play."

---RLB

P.S. this is a short flame- wait until someone REALLY gets me going.

P.P.S. the next time you vote in an election - any election - think
about the word "we"; when "we" go to war again, as Jerry Pournelle and
some others (myself included- my $0.02) believe inevitable ( or at
least highly probable ), "we" will do so because our elected leaders
say so.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 28 Jul 1983 13:39-PDT
Subject: WARGAMES
From: turner@rand-unix

     An interesting point concerning WARGAMES which no one has brought
up (so far as I remember) is that the boy is not punished at all for
what are clearly illegal acts -- breaking into computers, fritzing
phones and so on.  The fact that he comes out as a hero glorifies
these acts in the minds of younger (more easily swayed) viewers.

     Concerning the sign on the wall: the writers mentioned that such
a sign was actually posted at a missile silo in the Midwest.

                        -- Scott Turner
                                turner@rand-unix  --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jul 83 17:25 PDT
Subject: WarGames
From: MReilly.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA

     Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the man who explained the
workings of the WOPR to the federal agents say that the machine had
reenacted WWIII many times over?  If this is the case and the game had
already been played out many times before, then why wasn't the
computer able to realize futility in the countless number of times it
undoubtably played the game.  Why didn't it come to the conclusion
that there was no way to win a nuclear war before the actual scenario
portrayed in the movie.

     Just a thought.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jul 83 20:26 PDT
Subject: ROTJ questions
From: MReilly.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA

     I have just joined the distribution list and am not sure if these
questions have been raised before, but bear with me.

     First of all, how come Luke's lightsaber didn't cut anyone during
his battle over the desert.  If anyone has better eyesight than I do,
please correct me but I'm almost positive that noone was ever cut or
maimed during that scene.  In fact the only person that was hurt at
all (besides those who became food) was Luke.  Is there anything
besides the threat of an R rating that would stop the lightsaber from
carving people up?

     Another strange thing about lightsabers is that their power seems
to change with the episode in the saga.  Remember when Luke and Darth
were dueling in TESB.  They took swipes at each other and yet every
time that they missed and hit the metal supports that held up their
walkway, the metal wasn't cut through.  In ROTJ of course, when Vader
threw his light saber at the walkway that Luke was standing on, the
support sheared and the whole thing collapsed.  Anyone see something I
didn't?

     Those Ewoks certainly are masters of the Ten Minute Ambush aren't
they.

     The final thing someone could perhaps explain is what the use of
the armor worn by the storm troopers.  We found out in SW:ANH and TESB
that these suits were not much good against blasters and lightsabers
although they are quite impressive looking and must strike fear into
the hearts of enemies.  We then find out that the suits aren't any
good as protection from rocks, clubs or teddybears.  Couldn't so great
an organization as the Empire settle on dress that was either more
useful or lighter-weight albeit less awe-inspiring?

     I really enjoyed all three of the movies but as long as everyone
is submitting their questions I thought I would submit mine.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1983  02:02-EDT (Thursday)
From: Sue Felshin <SR.FELSHIN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: the other =? Leia

     If Leia was "the other", there wasn't much point to it, as she
did next to nothing throughout the film.  Yoda says there is "another
[hope]" and also that "there is another Skywalk... [cough, gasp,
holographize]", but not that the two are the same.  I think the other
was Vader (or maybe the love he held for his son) and that this is
what Yoda meant when he spoke of the other hope, but that Kenobi
misunderstood him (being notoriously bad when it comes to
understanding Anakin Skywalker).  Probably this was intentional on
Yoda's part.  If Luke found out from Kenobi's loose tongue who (or
what) the other was, he would screw up by not acting naturally.

     If all the above were true, it explains whoever-it-was's query
about why no one ever remembers to tell Luke that the Emperor uses the
Force.  Han doesn't know beans about the Emperor.  Neither does Leia
(for a senator's daughter, rebel leader and princess, she's singularly
uninformed about *everything*, come to think of it).  Kenobi is too
obsessed with bumping of his strayed protege and proof of his
falability to bother about the big E.  (First you get Vader, then
think about the Emp, Luke.)  Yoda, the only person(?) besides Lucas
who has the faintest idea of what is going on, doesn't tell Luke
because Luke is *supposed* to get trashed by the Emperor, thus
convincing Vader to see the light, save his son, and turn once again
toward truth, justice, and the holographic way.  [Sidetrack.  Did
anyone who read the book of ROTJ (worst writing I've ever read) notice
that in the book Vader didn't go for the Emperor until after he
thought Luke was dead, thus changing the entire interpretation of all
three movies, and for the worse, to my mind?  End sidetrack.]  If Luke
knew about the Emp and if (unlikely) he were able to beat the Emp, he
would still get creamed by Vader, and vice versa if Luke went for
Vader.  Yoda is cagy.

Sue Felshin,
Flame Extrordinaire and
PaFotSftPoRCD

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Jul 83 0041-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #35
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 29 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:
     Books - "Breakaway Station" & Robert A. Heinlein (3 msgs) &
                       J.R.R. Tolkien (3 msgs),
       General Discussion - SF Book Club & WorldCon (2 msgs) &
                               The SCA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 16:52:40-PDT (Wed)
From: menlo70!nsc!foster @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: WE ALL DIED ...

     Re: request for info on WE ALL DIED AT BREAKAWAY STATION.

     A novella (or possibly a novel) by that name sticks in my memory
as having appeared in a pulp sci-fi magazine (Amazing Stories?)  in
the late sixties.  It was about a space station (fortress/warship?)
which had been attacked and everyone was killed after a valliant
effort to defend the space station/fortress/warship.  The crew had
been rescued and brought back to life (sort of) by having all their
burned and blasted organs, arms, legs, etc. replaced by mechanical
parts (presumably the brain was still alive).  The story is told in
flashback as the rescued survivors are being transported back to
earth.  They decide to have another go at the baddies with their
crippled bodies in a crippled warship and all go to hell together in a
blaze of glory.  It was an execellent yarn in many ways, well written
(for a pulp mag) and had an unusual story line for the time.

     I was reminded of that story when I first saw the STAR TREK
episode "The Menagerie".  The apperance of Captain Pike in that
mechanical life support wheelchair was exactly as I had pictured one
of the main characters in WE ALL DIED AT BREAKAWAY STATION.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 23:20:24-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!ucbesvax.turner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Moon is a Harsh Marxist? - (nf)

     The suggestion that "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" adheres to
anything like the Marxist model of revolution has generated some
infrared, but little yet in the visible spectrum.  I suspect that what
unites the Libertarian and Marxist camps in their appreciation of it
[TMiaHM] is simply the portrait of a revolution.  There is no more
stirring drama in human affairs, after all, unless it is scientific
discovery.

     TMiaHM agrees with Marx to a point: the necessity of a
"vanguard", or leading group possessed of a politically "higher"
consciousness, of the workings of society, and in particular, its
material basis and modes of production.  (I doubt this myself, but
let's go on.)

     Heinlein's "professor" (I have forgotten some names, sorry), for
example, exposes the true extent of Terran exploitation: that while
Loonies are on the Rock to stay, most of their necessary water is
being shipped out to Earth, at prices fixed by an authoritarian world
federation, in the form of foodstuffs.  To stave off a
socio-ecological disaster, some central leadership must propound an
economic platform--with some military clout.

     So far, so good: this is not too different from the Bolshevik
retrenchment on the problem of "revolution in one country", the idea
that the "worker's state" must have the means to protect itself
economically as well as militarily, since revolution in the more
developed sector (Europe) was not in the cards after all, against
Marx's prediction.

     End of resemblance.  Marx proposed (and Lenin, later discarded)
the idea that the "proletariat" must gain provide the ultimate
decision- making power in society, by virtue of its supposedly deeper
understanding of the society's modes of production.  In TMiaHM, in
support of it's blend of liberal/survivalist ideology, instead invests
this consciousness in a (literal?) Deus Ex Machina: an sentient
computer, not only with control of production, but also of capital
exchange.  "Mike" at one point helps raise funds for the revolution by
skimming bank accounts--a networked form of Lenin's bank robberies.
(This is pointed out by RAH.)

     So the opportunity for revolution presents itself as an accident,
as it often does in history.  The skilled-worker Manny, who starts off
as a muddle-along Loonie prole, gets his hands on the society's
physical apparatus and turns it over to his friends in the
"intelligentsia": a professor, a "professional revolutionary"
(Wyoming), and (later) a banker.  They develop a cell-system less
vulnerable to penetration than that of most revolutionary
organizations, in part by virtue of its "network topology", and helped
by Mike the Computer's access to police files.

     From there on, it's a piece of cake.  (Yes, some tens of
thousands of Loonies die repelling an Earthworm invasion, and the
computed odds of success are very low throughout most of the book, but
the conclusion is forgone.)

     But TMiaHM is, if anything, the antithesis of Marxist revolution.
unlike Tsarist Russia, Luna has a developed economy, more in line with
the industrialized nations that Marx thought to be the breeding ground
of world revolution.  But, in a sense, the revolution has already
happened on Luna: the state (except as represented nominally by the
prison authorities) has already "withered away."  What the book
describes is the founding of a republic--a process of
"unwithering"--in response to an external threat to Heinlein's
anarchist utopia.  At the beginning and end of the book, Manny bemoans
the rewriting of history, and the rise of the state, but clearly
regards the latter as a necessary evil, much as Heinlein does.

     It is clear that Luna is intended to represent a political Eden,
one that can't coexist in a governed universe.  It is an idealization
of colonial America, and pretty inaccurate, to that extent.  As such,
it stands as a classic of Libertarian SF.  Libertarians are anarchists
in the best of all impossible worlds.  The Lunar economy is a pleasant
mixture of cooperation and private enterprise.  It makes the
transition to nationhood only by compromising these ideals.

     Heinlein is a Classical Liberal on economic matters, a decided
libertarian morally, and, in a way, a Proudhonian anarchist: one who
believes that there is a *naturally* social order implicit in human
behavior.  But Heinlein introduces a Darwinian system of justice into
his "natural" order: for the ingrate, the true trouble-maker, the
psychotic, there is always the Lunar vacuum.  A harsh schoolmistress
indeed!

     That's the dark side of this moon, to me.  Heinlein's compelling
rationale for the necessary evil of government is not anything as
idealistic as a human desire for a fair system of justice.  Vigilante
justice is jest fine, thank you!  Rather, it is species survival.
Heinlein is at bottom a survivalist ("women and children first", says
Lazarus Long), an ideology (yes!) which practically gloats over its
own ugliness.  I would grudgingly choose Marxism, if forced to choose.
Some people out there think that we *are* forced to choose, at this
point in history.  I hope not.

     On the balance, a very inventive and inspiring novel.  But worth
a harshly critical look; even one as long as this one has been.

            Michael Turner
            ucbvax!ucbesvax.turner

P.S. My quotes ("") are, variously, from Marxism, anarchism, from RAH,
and in the case of "network topology", to bring in some terminological
oddments.  Please read carefully before flaming.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 83 11:11:56 PDT (Friday)
From: Zdybel.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Heinlein

     I think one of the reasons for Heinlein's broad popularity is his
excellent juvenile SF books.  Along with some of Andre Norton's stuff,
they set the high water mark for that particular genre.  Titles I
remember fondly include Red Planet, Rolling Stones, Between Planets,
Starman Jones, Citizen of the Galaxy and Star Beast.  These were well
crafted books, and popular with school librarians.  In other words, a
lot of current SF readers grew up with Heinlein.

     Whichever of his adult offerings you try, you won't escape at
least of modicum of didacticism, and RAH's world view (in its various
evolutions) doesn't have the broad appeal of, say, Richard Bach's.
Some of the adult works that have least the character of philosophical
tracts include Double Star, Puppet Masters, Podkayne of Mars (which in
my view qualifies both as juvenile and adult fiction due to its
unusual plot vehicle), and Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

     It's hard to understand Heinlein's popularity (or his place in
the development of SF literature and the SF audience) without looking
at his short stories, particularly those in the "Future History"
Series.  Anthologies of particular interest include Green Hills of
Earth, The Man Who Sold the Moon, The Unpleasant Profession of
Jonathan Hoag (repackaged and republished under the title 6 X H, I
believe) and The Menace From Earth.

Cheers,

Frank Zdybel

P.S. Farnham's Freehold is perhaps my least favorite of Heinlein's
books.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1983 2150-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Gds@MIT-XX>
Subject: Tolkien & Heinlein

     I stand corrected.  Anyone with enough strength could see what he
wanted in the palantir.  (strength of will, that is)

        ------------------

     Regarding Heinlein, I have only read one of his books -- Number
of the Beast.  I was mystified by it, to say the least, especially the
ending.  In general, I love the idea of
intergalactic/universal/dimensional travel, but I thought a lot of the
good in the book was lost amidst the personalities of the characters
and the computer.  Shucks -- they didn't even start traveling until
1/3 of the book was over!

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 14:24:09-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!we13!otuxa!ll1!sb1!sb6!emory!gatech!roy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Tolkien, etc.

     I seem to remember some part of Tolkien's "Unfinished Tales"
talking about the development of the Lord of the Rings.  I believe
that even as far into the book as Bree, when the Hobbits meet Aragorn,
Tolkien had no idea where the story was going, that Aragorn was the
king to be, that he had to become king to wed the woman (elf) he
loved, etc.  All that developed later, but because the publisher was
in a hurry to get more stuff from the creator of "The Hobbit" out,
there wasn't a chance to rewrite the first book to be a part of the
more grandious mythos he eventually evolved.  Oh well, as they say,
Money Talks.

     By the way, I have noticed that although there is at least one
REAL science fiction author (Mr. Pournelle) on the net, we loyal SF
book purchasers never receive the benefit of their experience.  Maybe
it is asking too much of the author's highly paid fingers to expect to
read something from them in this news group, but....  ;-)

Roy J. Mongiovi
roy.gatech@Udel-Relay                           (ARPANET)
roy@gatech                                      (CSNET)
...!allegra!gatech!roy                          (UUCP/mail)
...!decvax!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!roy            (UUCP/mail/news)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1983 2242-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Gds@MIT-XX>
Subject: is LotR really SF?

     No, it is FF (Fantasy Fiction), but it falls into the general
categories of what kinds of things are discussed on this list.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 12:31:12-PDT (Wed)
From: teklabs!lynnef @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Science Fiction Book Club

     Thank you everyone who responded to my query about the SFBC!
However, my mailbox is filling up, and I have enough opinions to make
my decision, so no more recommendations please!
--
Lynne Fitzsimmons

USENET:  {aat, cbosg, decvax, harpo, ihnss, orstcs
          pur-ee, ssc-vax, ucbvax, unc, zehntel,
          ogcvax, reed} !teklabs!lynnef

CSNet: lynnef@tek
ARPAnet: lynnef.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1983 10:57:44 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.)
Subject: WorldCon Bids & Nasfic

     "NY and Philly have had their share of the action already."

     I'm not sure what action you're speaking of in this statement.
While both of these cities have their local conventions, neither has
sponsored a Worldcon in quite a while, for various and sundry reasons.
In terms of fannish history, too, the Philly in '86 bid ought to win,
since it's (intentionally) fifty years since the first "worldcon" --
the train trip that Isaac Asimov and a few companions made from NYC to
Philly to have a fannish getogether.  My only concern for the Philly
bid (speaking as a local resident) is whether all the facilities
planning will work, but I think it'll come off.  I believe, however,
that the Atlanta bid will win because of the (no-longer-deserved)
reputation of Philly as a dull and boring place.

     The statement you make about the worldcon being "exported" to
Australia is sadly chauvinistic.  Nothing kept us Yankees from bidding
against them except our own laziness.  And it's all too true that most
American fans are totally uninterested in seeing the "World"con occur
in a non-English-speaking locale, which is a pity.  (This, by the way,
is why World SF got founded -- so there would be some truly
international conventions.)

Dave Axler
(Axler.Upenn@Udel-relay)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1983 11:10:24 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.)
Subject: FAANs on the net

     There are/were enough faans on the net that there was an
sf-lovers party at last year's worldcon.  I'd estimate that about
50-60 people passed through over the course of the evening, which is
fairly high for a closed-door party.  (The only "announcement", other
than one in sf-lovers itself, was a sign on the "Party Times" bulletin
board which read "@room#,time".

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 Jul 83 20:54:14-CDT
From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: SCA

     Does anyone know what sort of roles people of the age of say 12
or 13 get in the society?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
date: 30 Jul 83 0041-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #35
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 29 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:
     Books - "Breakaway Station" & Robert A. Heinlein (3 msgs) &
                       J.R.R. Tolkien (3 msgs),
       General Discussion - SF Book Club & WorldCon (2 msgs) &
                               The SCA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 16:52:40-PDT (Wed)
From: menlo70!nsc!foster @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: WE ALL DIED ...

     Re: request for info on WE ALL DIED AT BREAKAWAY STATION.

     A novella (or possibly a novel) by that name sticks in my memory
as having appeared in a pulp sci-fi magazine (Amazing Stories?)  in
the late sixties.  It was about a space station (fortress/warship?)
which had been attacked and everyone was killed after a valliant
effort to defend the space station/fortress/warship.  The crew had
been rescued and brought back to life (sort of) by having all their
burned and blasted organs, arms, legs, etc. replaced by mechanical
parts (presumably the brain was still alive).  The story is told in
flashback as the rescued survivors are being transported back to
earth.  They decide to have another go at the baddies with their
crippled bodies in a crippled warship and all go to hell together in a
blaze of glory.  It was an execellent yarn in many ways, well written
(for a pulp mag) and had an unusual story line for the time.

     I was reminded of that story when I first saw the STAR TREK
episode "The Menagerie".  The apperance of Captain Pike in that
mechanical life support wheelchair was exactly as I had pictured one
of the main characters in WE ALL DIED AT BREAKAWAY STATION.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 23:20:24-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!ucbesvax.turner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Moon is a Harsh Marxist? - (nf)

     The suggestion that "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" adheres to
anything like the Marxist model of revolution has generated some
infrared, but little yet in the visible spectrum.  I suspect that what
unites the Libertarian and Marxist camps in their appreciation of it
[TMiaHM] is simply the portrait of a revolution.  There is no more
stirring drama in human affairs, after all, unless it is scientific
discovery.

     TMiaHM agrees with Marx to a point: the necessity of a
"vanguard", or leading group possessed of a politically "higher"
consciousness, of the workings of society, and in particular, its
material basis and modes of production.  (I doubt this myself, but
let's go on.)

     Heinlein's "professor" (I have forgotten some names, sorry), for
example, exposes the true extent of Terran exploitation: that while
Loonies are on the Rock to stay, most of their necessary water is
being shipped out to Earth, at prices fixed by an authoritarian world
federation, in the form of foodstuffs.  To stave off a
socio-ecological disaster, some central leadership must propound an
economic platform--with some military clout.

     So far, so good: this is not too different from the Bolshevik
retrenchment on the problem of "revolution in one country", the idea
that the "worker's state" must have the means to protect itself
economically as well as militarily, since revolution in the more
developed sector (Europe) was not in the cards after all, against
Marx's prediction.

     End of resemblance.  Marx proposed (and Lenin, later discarded)
the idea that the "proletariat" must gain provide the ultimate
decision- making power in society, by virtue of its supposedly deeper
understanding of the society's modes of production.  In TMiaHM, in
support of it's blend of liberal/survivalist ideology, instead invests
this consciousness in a (literal?) Deus Ex Machina: an sentient
computer, not only with control of production, but also of capital
exchange.  "Mike" at one point helps raise funds for the revolution by
skimming bank accounts--a networked form of Lenin's bank robberies.
(This is pointed out by RAH.)

     So the opportunity for revolution presents itself as an accident,
as it often does in history.  The skilled-worker Manny, who starts off
as a muddle-along Loonie prole, gets his hands on the society's
physical apparatus and turns it over to his friends in the
"intelligentsia": a professor, a "professional revolutionary"
(Wyoming), and (later) a banker.  They develop a cell-system less
vulnerable to penetration than that of most revolutionary
organizations, in part by virtue of its "network topology", and helped
by Mike the Computer's access to police files.

     From there on, it's a piece of cake.  (Yes, some tens of
thousands of Loonies die repelling an Earthworm invasion, and the
computed odds of success are very low throughout most of the book, but
the conclusion is forgone.)

     But TMiaHM is, if anything, the antithesis of Marxist revolution.
unlike Tsarist Russia, Luna has a developed economy, more in line with
the industrialized nations that Marx thought to be the breeding ground
of world revolution.  But, in a sense, the revolution has already
happened on Luna: the state (except as represented nominally by the
prison authorities) has already "withered away."  What the book
describes is the founding of a republic--a process of
"unwithering"--in response to an external threat to Heinlein's
anarchist utopia.  At the beginning and end of the book, Manny bemoans
the rewriting of history, and the rise of the state, but clearly
regards the latter as a necessary evil, much as Heinlein does.

     It is clear that Luna is intended to represent a political Eden,
one that can't coexist in a governed universe.  It is an idealization
of colonial America, and pretty inaccurate, to that extent.  As such,
it stands as a classic of Libertarian SF.  Libertarians are anarchists
in the best of all impossible worlds.  The Lunar economy is a pleasant
mixture of cooperation and private enterprise.  It makes the
transition to nationhood only by compromising these ideals.

     Heinlein is a Classical Liberal on economic matters, a decided
libertarian morally, and, in a way, a Proudhonian anarchist: one who
believes that there is a *naturally* social order implicit in human
behavior.  But Heinlein introduces a Darwinian system of justice into
his "natural" order: for the ingrate, the true trouble-maker, the
psychotic, there is always the Lunar vacuum.  A harsh schoolmistress
indeed!

     That's the dark side of this moon, to me.  Heinlein's compelling
rationale for the necessary evil of government is not anything as
idealistic as a human desire for a fair system of justice.  Vigilante
justice is jest fine, thank you!  Rather, it is species survival.
Heinlein is at bottom a survivalist ("women and children first", says
Lazarus Long), an ideology (yes!) which practically gloats over its
own ugliness.  I would grudgingly choose Marxism, if forced to choose.
Some people out there think that we *are* forced to choose, at this
point in history.  I hope not.

     On the balance, a very inventive and inspiring novel.  But worth
a harshly critical look; even one as long as this one has been.

            Michael Turner
            ucbvax!ucbesvax.turner

P.S. My quotes ("") are, variously, from Marxism, anarchism, from RAH,
and in the case of "network topology", to bring in some terminological
oddments.  Please read carefully before flaming.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 83 11:11:56 PDT (Friday)
From: Zdybel.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Heinlein

     I think one of the reasons for Heinlein's broad popularity is his
excellent juvenile SF books.  Along with some of Andre Norton's stuff,
they set the high water mark for that particular genre.  Titles I
remember fondly include Red Planet, Rolling Stones, Between Planets,
Starman Jones, Citizen of the Galaxy and Star Beast.  These were well
crafted books, and popular with school librarians.  In other words, a
lot of current SF readers grew up with Heinlein.

     Whichever of his adult offerings you try, you won't escape at
least of modicum of didacticism, and RAH's world view (in its various
evolutions) doesn't have the broad appeal of, say, Richard Bach's.
Some of the adult works that have least the character of philosophical
tracts include Double Star, Puppet Masters, Podkayne of Mars (which in
my view qualifies both as juvenile and adult fiction due to its
unusual plot vehicle), and Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

     It's hard to understand Heinlein's popularity (or his place in
the development of SF literature and the SF audience) without looking
at his short stories, particularly those in the "Future History"
Series.  Anthologies of particular interest include Green Hills of
Earth, The Man Who Sold the Moon, The Unpleasant Profession of
Jonathan Hoag (repackaged and republished under the title 6 X H, I
believe) and The Menace From Earth.

Cheers,

Frank Zdybel

P.S. Farnham's Freehold is perhaps my least favorite of Heinlein's
books.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1983 2150-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Gds@MIT-XX>
Subject: Tolkien & Heinlein

     I stand corrected.  Anyone with enough strength could see what he
wanted in the palantir.  (strength of will, that is)

        ------------------

     Regarding Heinlein, I have only read one of his books -- Number
of the Beast.  I was mystified by it, to say the least, especially the
ending.  In general, I love the idea of
intergalactic/universal/dimensional travel, but I thought a lot of the
good in the book was lost amidst the personalities of the characters
and the computer.  Shucks -- they didn't even start traveling until
1/3 of the book was over!

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 14:24:09-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!we13!otuxa!ll1!sb1!sb6!emory!gatech!roy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Tolkien, etc.

     I seem to remember some part of Tolkien's "Unfinished Tales"
talking about the development of the Lord of the Rings.  I believe
that even as far into the book as Bree, when the Hobbits meet Aragorn,
Tolkien had no idea where the story was going, that Aragorn was the
king to be, that he had to become king to wed the woman (elf) he
loved, etc.  All that developed later, but because the publisher was
in a hurry to get more stuff from the creator of "The Hobbit" out,
there wasn't a chance to rewrite the first book to be a part of the
more grandious mythos he eventually evolved.  Oh well, as they say,
Money Talks.

     By the way, I have noticed that although there is at least one
REAL science fiction author (Mr. Pournelle) on the net, we loyal SF
book purchasers never receive the benefit of their experience.  Maybe
it is asking too much of the author's highly paid fingers to expect to
read something from them in this news group, but....  ;-)

Roy J. Mongiovi
roy.gatech@Udel-Relay                           (ARPANET)
roy@gatech                                      (CSNET)
...!allegra!gatech!roy                          (UUCP/mail)
...!decvax!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!roy            (UUCP/mail/news)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1983 2242-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Gds@MIT-XX>
Subject: is LotR really SF?

     No, it is FF (Fantasy Fiction), but it falls into the general
categories of what kinds of things are discussed on this list.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 12:31:12-PDT (Wed)
From: teklabs!lynnef @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Science Fiction Book Club

     Thank you everyone who responded to my query about the SFBC!
However, my mailbox is filling up, and I have enough opinions to make
my decision, so no more recommendations please!
--
Lynne Fitzsimmons

USENET:  {aat, cbosg, decvax, harpo, ihnss, orstcs
          pur-ee, ssc-vax, ucbvax, unc, zehntel,
          ogcvax, reed} !teklabs!lynnef

CSNet: lynnef@tek
ARPAnet: lynnef.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1983 10:57:44 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.)
Subject: WorldCon Bids & Nasfic

     "NY and Philly have had their share of the action already."

     I'm not sure what action you're speaking of in this statement.
While both of these cities have their local conventions, neither has
sponsored a Worldcon in quite a while, for various and sundry reasons.
In terms of fannish history, too, the Philly in '86 bid ought to win,
since it's (intentionally) fifty years since the first "worldcon" --
the train trip that Isaac Asimov and a few companions made from NYC to
Philly to have a fannish getogether.  My only concern for the Philly
bid (speaking as a local resident) is whether all the facilities
planning will work, but I think it'll come off.  I believe, however,
that the Atlanta bid will win because of the (no-longer-deserved)
reputation of Philly as a dull and boring place.

     The statement you make about the worldcon being "exported" to
Australia is sadly chauvinistic.  Nothing kept us Yankees from bidding
against them except our own laziness.  And it's all too true that most
American fans are totally uninterested in seeing the "World"con occur
in a non-English-speaking locale, which is a pity.  (This, by the way,
is why World SF got founded -- so there would be some truly
international conventions.)

Dave Axler
(Axler.Upenn@Udel-relay)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1983 11:10:24 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.)
Subject: FAANs on the net

     There are/were enough faans on the net that there was an
sf-lovers party at last year's worldcon.  I'd estimate that about
50-60 people passed through over the course of the evening, which is
fairly high for a closed-door party.  (The only "announcement", other
than one in sf-lovers itself, was a sign on the "Party Times" bulletin
board which read "@room#,time".

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 Jul 83 20:54:14-CDT
From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: SCA

     Does anyone know what sort of roles people of the age of say 12
or 13 get in the society?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Jul 83 0125-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #36
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 30 Jul 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:
      Film - Twilight Zone:  The Movie (5 msgs) (SPOILERS!!!) &
          The Return of the Jedi (6 msgs) (SPOILERS!!!!!) &
                       WarGames (SPOILERS!!!!!)














----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 83 7:32:46-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ec.ks9j @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Zonies

     Thanks for all the responses to my inquiry on "The Twilight Zone
Companion."  I already had the book and just wanted other peoples'
thoughts.

     I myself find the book to be a good reference source, but as a
critical review of each show, it fails.  I mean, make your our
opinions on the shows and then read the authors views.  More than once
have I considered an episode great, where the author thinks it's one
of the weakest.

     As for the movie, I liked it.  Sure it had its flaws, but don't
they all?  See it.  On the whol, it's worth the money, at least the
$2.00 matinee.

     I found out that Batnan (sp) has reprinted the three TZ books
written by Rod Serling in the early 60's (ie "Stories from the TZ",
"More Stories from the TZ", and "New Stories from the TZ") I haven't
read them yet, but will give my thoughts on them when I do.

     WGN, channel 9, in Chicago, is showing the TZ episodes in cron.
order as they were first shown.  They are currently showing the first
season's shows.  And also the hour long episodes are being shown on
Monday nights.

     Well, that's about it.  Any responses can be either via mail or
news.

                        Zoned out,
                        Larry W. Haak
                        pur-ee:ks9j

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 83 23:31-EST (Fri)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund.umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: TZ

     Does anyone know what parts of the 1st segment were cut becuase
of the helicopter crash. Just a brief plot outline is what I am
looking for.

                        - Steven Gutfreund
                          Gutfreund.umass-cs@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1983 14:00:02 EDT (Saturday)
From: Jon McCombie <jmccombi@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: TZ Episode 1 -- Needemeyer

     I too heard the VietNam troops mumbling something about "too bad
we got rid of Needemeyer."  Cute trick.  But did they have to pay
royalties to National Lampoon?

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 83 16:19:45 EDT
From: Saul Jaffe <Jaffe@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: The Twilight Zone movie

     Recently the New York tv station that has the syndication rights
to TZ aired the original 3 stories that were re-done in the movie.
The show was hosted by Carol Serling (Rod's wife).

     As part of the show, before each commercial they had a trivia
question and the answer was shown on return from the commercial.
Several interesting facts came out from these questions:

     1. For those of you who didn't already know, the voice over in
the movie was done by Burgess Meredith who played in several of the
original stories including "Mr. Dingle the Strong".

     2. The only actor who appeared in the movie and on the original
show was Billy Mumy who was in "It's a Good Life".

     3. Also appearing in the movie version of "It's a Good Life" was
Buck Houghton who produced the original episode.

     4.  One of the frightened passengers in "Nightmare at 20,000
Feet" was none other than Carol Serling.

     5.  The character of Helen Foley (played by Kathleen Quinlan) in
the movie version of "It's a Good Life" was named after a teacher that
Rod had whom he much admired.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1983 0136-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: TZ:The Movie

     I, too, felt the first segment of TZ:tM was most TV-series like.
This was before I knew for sure which segments were actually based on
episodes.  In spite of its sweetness, I kind of liked Kick the Can.
As for "The Cornfield," I liked it up until the happy ending (the idea
of a kid imagining a cartoon world was well-done), but the Bixby story
was infinitely better.  The last segment was scary and all that, but
they left out the most important element of the original, which was
the man's (John Lithgow/William Shatner) uncertainty whether or not he
was really crazy.  In the original he had just recovered from a
nervous breakdown which caused him to see things.  The audience was
never sure either whether the gremlin was real until the end, when the
scratches were revealed.

                        --Janice Eisen  (mdc.janice@MIT-OZ)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 83 13:25:17-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxa!mhuxi!mhuxt!eagle!alice!rabbit!wolit @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RotJ Languages

     I'll bet you've all been wondering what Niem Numb, the
"heavy-jowled reptilian creature with bulging black eyes," who
copiloted the Millenium Falcon with Lando Calrissian during the attack
on the Death Star, meant when he muttered, "Atiriri.  Inyui hau ukai
na haha."

     Well, wonder no more.  Turns out that in the language of the
dominant tribe in Kenya, the Kikuyu, it means, roughly, "Attention,
you over there, come this way."  Which makes no sense at all in
context, but sounds authentic (at least the producers must have
thought so).

     All this was dicovered during a recent screening in Nairobi, at
which just about everyone in the audience picked up the odd usage.
(Don't tell your Kenyan friends: the film doesn't open there until
August 19.)

     Now that I have you on the edge of your seats, I can reveal that
the language spoken by the Ewoks is a mixture, mostly of Tibetan and
Mongolian.

Jan Wolitzky
Dept. of Linguistics & Speech Analysis (actually, I read it on
the AP newswire)
Bell Labs, Murray Hill

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 83 16:00:34-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!alice!wookie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: rain in ROtJ

     I too noticed the rain and thought it was scratches in the film.
I was rather disconcerted about that since I had gone into New York to
see the film on opening day.  I have only seen it once since then but
in the same format (6 channel 70 mm).  I was amazed how much better
the film was in New York in reguard to the sound system than it was in
Paramus NJ which is one of the largest theatres in NJ.  The NJ sound
system just couldn't handle Jabba's voice and other effects.  I would
urge those who haven't seen this at a GOOD theatre to do so since it
loses so much!!!

                                        Keith Bauer
                                        White Tiger Racing

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 83 13:42:54-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!edward @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SW goof

     In TESB, Obi-Wan says that Luke is their last hope, but Yoda
corrects him by saying that their is another.  It seems that Obi-Wan
never knew about the other before this moment.  But in RotJ we find
out that OB-1 (I'm getting lazy) knew about Leia from the beginning.
In fact he was the one who hid her from Vader in the first place
knowing her future possible importance.

     It doesn't make sense that OB-1 should make his "That boy is our
last hope.." comment if he knows damn well that Leia is around.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1983 1511-EDT
From: Randy Haskins <rh at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #33

     About the light-saber problem:

     Maybe the light-sabers have different intensities?  Maybe the
"blade" has a certain shape such that it can cut in one direction and
simply 'subdue' in another (like a real sword).  I don't see this as a
problem; given anti-grav and other things, it should be easy for them
to do technologically.

                                --Randy

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 83 22:43-EST (Fri)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund.umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: re: drizzle

     I also noticed the drizzle on the prints of ROTJ that I saw.

     My theory was that the shooting was deliberately done on
drizzlely days to make the black hanger floor shiny. The only scenes
that I noticed the drizzle in where the hanger scenes on the Death
Star II.

     One thing I looked for but did not find was evidence of moisture
on Vader or other's uniforms when they were out in the drizzle.

                                - Steven Gutfreund
                                  Gutfreund.umass-cs@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1983 0136-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: ROTJ

     I still think Leia is the Other Hope.  Lucas just didn't know
what to do with her.  I heard from someone that in the original, very
early concepts for STAR WARS, the central (Luke) character was female.
THAT would have been a more original touch.

     I doubt Lucas is enough of an intellectual to enjoy opera,
especially Wagner (after all, he admits his main influence is comic
books).  This seems to fall under Jung's idea of archetypes: ideas in
the collective unconscious which we all share.  (That's a highly
oversimplified explanation; please, no flames from Jung experts.)
It's a way of explaining the symbols, etc. which appear over and over
in various cultures and time periods where there is no obvious
borrowing.

                          --Janice Eisen  (mdc.janice@MIT-OZ)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 83 3:54:52-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: WarGames and helicopters

     Nobody could possibly care about this, so I'll post it anyway.
To clarify the clarification, the *real* reason that the two kids and
the mad scientist drove a jeep into NORAD instead of flying their
helicopter in is because they didn't fly their helicopter from Oregon
to Cheyenne Mountain (this would have taken *days*); instead, they
flew the helicopter to a commercial airport, bought tickets to
Colorado (Wyoming?), and caught a jeep to the base.

-- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!teklabs!tekecs!andrew)  [UUCP]
                     (andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)   [ARPA]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Jul 83 2219-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #37
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 31 Jul 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 37

Today's Topics:
   Books - J.R.R. Tolkien (3 msgs) & Robert A. Heinlein (2 msgs) &
      Frederic Pohl & John Norman (2 msgs) & Charles W. Runyon,
                        Television - Dr. Who,
                       Conventions - WorldCon,
                      Film - WarGames (Spoiler)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1983 2018-EDT
From: Mark Terpin (MARKT@MIT-XX)
Subject: Tolkien flame

     I think it's going to be hard for any fantasy author to surpass
the Lord of the Rings, just because Tolkien put so much care and
effort into developing Middle Earth.  He started the Silmarillion in
1917, I seem to recall, and he never really finished it; it's
practically a life work.

     Things in LotR just seem to fit together better than in most
stories, and Middle Earth seems to me more 'real' than most other
fantasy worlds, just because of all the detail and attention he put
into it.  You can really tell that Tolkien didn't develop Middle Earth
just to write novels about it, but he enjoyed building it for its own
sake.  How many fantasy authors had spent years developing languages
for peoples in their worlds, or drawing up philological maps, or
drawing up family trees, all of which would never be published, just
as a personal hobby.  I think that this made Middle Earth richer in
subtle ways.  For instance in LotR, when Tolkien hints about something
outside of the story in Lotr (e.g. Gondolin), you get the sense
Tolkien actually had a bunch of interesting stories about the place,
but that there just wasn't the space to go into detail.  Even the cats
of Queen Beruthiel had a (small) story behind them!

     I doubt if any fantasy authors have ever developed a world as
rich as Middle Earth, although I'm open to opinions otherwise.

     On the subject of snarfing, LotR has not a few elements from
Norse and Germanic mythology, and I think the names Gandalf and Frodo
were from the Hiemskringla.

-Mark

------------------------------

Date: Sat 30 Jul 83 18:09:44-CDT
From: L. Stuart Vance <cc.vance@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: Tolkiens' Unfinished Tales

     While the subject of J.R.R. Tolkien is still fresh, does anyone
have any recommendations (favorable or not) on C. and J.R.R. Tolkiens'
Unfinished Tales?  Its advertised hardback price is around $15.00, and
I was hoping to find out a bit of its content before spending that
much (rather than wait for a paperback edition).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jul 83 14:56:52 EDT
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Tolkein

     Re Tolkein's not knowing which way the plot winds were blowing
when the characters were at Bree: I remember hearing something similar
about Katherine Anne Porter's "Ship of Fools"; that the characters and
their stories took effective control of the book.  Thesis: Tolkein's
works are better for his having to meet editorial pressures, in that
the characters forced the story, and not the author.  (Don't be too
literal-minded with me; you know what I'm saying.)  The question is,
how can this state be reached in the writing process?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1983  04:08 EDT
From: UC.ART@MIT-EECS at MIT-MC
Subject: Heinlein's foibles

     By criticizing Heinlein you're going to open up such a can of
worms!  But to answer your question, I understand Heinlein's
literature to be excellent reading for teenagers.  His characters are
very easily related to by adolescents because of the feelings of
loneliness suffered by them and the "coming of age" that he usually
has them go through.  He lately has been trying to write to a more
mature audience but I think he is just wasting his time.  His older
stories are by far the better.

     Enough of that.  My favorite story of Heinlein's is Starship
Troopers.  Also excellent reading is Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Nuff
said.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1983 0136-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Heinlein

     Libertarians and Marxists have one very important thing in
common: they both ignore the truth in pursuit of their ideology.  The
truth that libertarians ignore is that some cooperation is absolutely
necessary in this present world if we are to survive (although in a
Heinleinian universe with infinite room for expansion, their ideas
might work).  Marxists ignore the fact that not everything can be
explained in terms of economics and the class struggle.

                         --Janice Eisen  (mdc.janice@MIT-OZ)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 83 13:26:51-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.pur-phy!dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: new book by Pohl?

     Any news on if or when Fred Pohl is coming out with the 3rd bood
of the "Stargate", "Beyond the Blue Event Horizon" set?

                        D. Bartholomew

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1983 0136-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Gor

     Somebody's actually reading the Gor books!  One plot summary
suffices for all; uppity Earth girl gets kidnapped to Gor and made a
sex slave, and by the end of the book discovers she actually LOVES
chains and submission.  What I find most interesting is Norman's claim
that Gor is actually better, because on Earth a woman is always
selling her body (no matter what society pretends) while on Gor this
process is open, and slave-owners appreciate their possessions' minds,
too!  Guff like this really bothers me because I wonder how many
emotionally retarded terminal adolescents actually believe that women
do feel that way.

                          --Janice Eisen  (mdc.janice@MIT-OZ)

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 31-Jul-83 01:25:00-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: "Wargames" and "GOR"

(Moderator's Note:  Mr. Weinstein's messages arrived on two distinct
topics.  It has been duplicated into two separate messages.  However,
due to the way the message was written, some introductory material has
been left untouched.)

"Wargames" and "GOR"???  How the hell did these two get together?
Don't panic -- they're actually completely separate topics in this one
message...

--Laur...  What?  I can't hear you!  OH!  What about GOR?  Oh yes, my
Subject line...  Well, all I wanted to say is that hearing about the
SCA splinter group which is "roughly" based on elements of the GOR
series confirms my deepest fears.  This comes on the heels of my
recently noticing a copy of John (GOR) Norman's "Imaginative Sex"
laying on a bed in a film I saw on a commercial cable service.  I fear
that the "Goreans" are already amongst us.  Where will it all lead?
How will it all end?  Back to the digital limbo with you all!

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 83 23:08-EST (Fri)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund.umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Charles W. Runyon

     Is anyone familiar with the work of Charles W. Runyon? Is he
primarily and SF writer? Can anyone come up with a list of books he
has authored?

     The novel I read (a one word title whose name escapes me) dealt
with the state of Homo Sap after its first encounter with Aliens. <A
disastrous affair with Earth being wiped out and only a few
underground colonies on Titan left. Why all humans weren't wiped out
was not understood>

     The main part of the story is about the remaining Homo Sap-like
species.  Lots of genetic engineering had taken place: warrier breeds
with only 200 word vocabularies, intellectual breeds with long lives
but no power drives (the in-power breed wanted to remain in power, a
typical phenomenon if one looks at 1960's history) ESP breeds, and
outsider breeds.

     The in-power breed decides that it must create a super-human
breed to go out and find the Alien species and wipe it out before it
decides humans are too much of a nuisance and wipes out humanity once
and for all.  They do this via cross breeding of the remaining
species.

     The story took many novel turns. Basically I think the story was
stuffed with as many new twists as Farmer's: Riders of the Purple
Wage. The ending was pretty spectacular.

                                - Steven Gutfreund
                                  Gutfreund.umass-cs@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 83 14:57:12-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Doctor Who

     I just got back from a week's vacation that included attending
the Doctor Who convention Panopticon West.  I got to see serials with
each of the five Doctors, including the first - An Unearthly Child,
the Pertwee/Baker regeneration - Planet of the Spiders, and the
Baker/Davison regeneration in Logopolis and Castrovalva.

     My favorites for the weekend - Earthshock, Mawdryn Undead and
Enlightenment.  I would even go so far as to choose Mawdryn Undead as
the very best Doctor Who serial I have seen.  I guess this makes me a
totally converted Davison fan, I understand I missed some discussion
of this on the net while I was away.

      The con guests included producer John Nathan-Turner.  He told us
that the Doctor will get an American companion next season.

      The 20th anniversary special set for Nov. 23 on the BBC will be
shown the same night in this country, pester your local PBS stations
to carry it (especially if you're in my area, Baltimore-Washington).

                Mary Anne Espenshade
                ...!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jul 83 14:56:52 EDT
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: WorldCon

     It is futile to speak of "Philly in '86" bids.  This implies some
weird fascination with an absolutist view of time.  The Mpls in '73
bid is still active, and gaining momentum along parallel time tracks.
We can expect this to be the next (in a perceptual reference frame, at
least) interval of faan activity.  (You always knew it was a state of
mind.)

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 31-Jul-83 01:25:00-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: "Wargames" and "GOR"



(Moderator's Note: Mr. Weinstein submitted a message with two separate
topics.  However, due to the way the message was written, I have left
the subject heading and the notes as it was in the original.)

"Wargames" and "GOR"???  How the hell did these two get together?
Don't panic -- they're actually completely separate topics in this one
message...

Well, let's hear it for "Wargames"... "the topic that wouldn't die".
I'd really like to keep political-science discussion out of here, so
I'll make this as brief as possible.  In theory, we may have the
ability to instantly stop the nuclear arms race and destroy *all* such
weapons.  In practice, however, a variety of forces over which we have
imperfect or no controls prevent the former from occurring quickly,
and will almost certainly prevent the latter from taking place at all.
My "health" analogy, while imperfect (what analogy is really perfect?)
is still valid.  There are some aspects of health which we can take
great strides toward controlling (as individuals and as groups).
There are other aspects that we do not truly understand, and various
environmental forces (many of which are man/woman-made) which affect
our health in manners we might not even suspect and in many cases
cannot effectively control as individuals.

There are definite steps we can take toward preventing a nuclear war
and towards reducing the number of nuclear weapons "floating" around.
However, I do not consider simplistic "slogans" such as that presented
by "Wargames" to be part of the solution.  Yeah, I know, "Wargames"
wasn't trying to give a message, "Wargames" was supposed to be
entertainment, etc., etc.  Whatever it was supposed to be, many people
interpreted it as a "message" film.  Further discussions about this on
POLI-SCI, please!

It was pointed out that I haven't panned the James Bond films (which I
generally like, especially the earlier ones) and such recent
commercial tripe as "Flashdance".  Films where the motivation and
relationship to reality are completely clear do not require my
critical attention in the same manner as "Wargames".  I trust the paid
film reviewers to deal with the "easy" movies.  "Wargames", however,
was another matter, since it became obvious that many people in the
population at large were largely *believing* that stuff!  The wire
service articles, interviews with NORAD officials, and similar recent
events made it clear that many persons simply did not have the
backround knowledge to separate the fantasy from reality in that film.
Anyone who claims that "Wargames" wasn't a "message" film (several
messages, in fact) must be kidding.  There's nothing wrong with
messages -- but when a film attempts to accomplish this through
playing on people's ignorance of "the way things work", I get a bit
steamed.  There was none of this in the Bond flicks or in "Flashdance"
for that matter -- they were/are strictly entertainment and clearly
such.

One final point.  I have absolutely nothing against films which are
purely entertainment, or even against films that primarily exist
simply to make money (most of them fall into the latter catagory, one
way or the other -- or so the producers hope).  I've worked in
"Hollywood" before, and I've consulted on both science-fiction and
non-science-fiction films.  I'm not ignorant of the motivations behind
the people producing films today.  My only real concern with
"Wargames" has been the way it, perhaps even unconsciously, attempted
to lay out its message via a series of fantasies that many people were
not in a position to view as such.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 83 2231-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #38
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 38

Today's Topics:
                            Administrivia,
        Books - Frederic Pohl & Larry Niven & J.R.R. Tolkien &
                             John Norman,
  Film - Star Trek & Twilight Zone:  The Movie (2 msgs) (Spoiler!) &
                   The Return of the Jedi (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 83 19:36:54 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Administrivia

Hi All:

     Because of a system shutdown last night, some sites got a
duplicate of yesterday's digest.  The system had started to mail out
the digests when it went down.  When it came back up again, instead of
continuing from where it had left off, it went back to square one and
started again...

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 83 7:27:40-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: new book by Pohl? - (nf)

     Pohl is indeed writing a sequel to Star Gate, Beyond the ...and
Merchanters of Venus. I forget the name, but it is I beleived
scheduled for sometime this year.

                        Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: Mon 1 Aug 83 17:46:19-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Niven's jig saw people comming to life ?

a507 16-Jul-83  23:11
BC-ORGANS-07-16

By Robert Cooke

(c) 1983 Boston Globe (Independent Press Service)

     One of the most difficult problems involved in transplanting
living organs - finding suitable matching donors - may soon be
overcome, doctors said Friday.

     They said experiments with rats and mice show it is possible to
transplant organs without seeking matching donors, and without
shutting down the recipient's immune system.

     ''It is believed,'' said Dr. Willyscq Silvers, that if these
techniques can be made to work in humans, then ''transplants may be
accepted with impunity.'' An early suggested human use for the
technique would involve the transplanting of insulin-producing cells
into diabetics.

     Silvers added that the specially treated organs transferred
between laboratory animals in his experiments appear to ''take'' even
better than organs transferred into carefully matched recipients.

     A professor of human genetics at the University of Pennsylvania
School of Medicine, Silvers delivered his report during a symposium on
transplantation immunogenetics at the Jackson Laboratory in Bar
Harbor, Maine.

     ''This observation is important,'' Silvers said, ''because it
should increase the number of organs available for transplantation. It
is much easier to locate an unmatched organ than a matched one.''

     Also at the symposium was Dr. Paul S. Russell, a kidney
transplant specialists from Massachusetts General Hospital, who
cautioned that ''clinical use of this technique requires more
refinement.'' But, he said, ''if it can be accomplished, it would make
many more organ transplants possible.''

     Russell noted that if the technique can be developed for use in
human patients, ''it would do away with or lessen the need for''
suppressing the body's immune system to prevent the recipient's body
from rejecting the transplanted organ. Such immunosuppression often
causes major complications through increased susceptibility to
infection.

     Dr. Henry Winn, an immunologist at Massachusetts General
Hospital, said: ''I think the rationale is sound. Silvers has
excellent data.  There have been disappointments in the past, but I
think we'd be foolish not to try to apply the technique to humans.''

     This new approach to organ transplantation revolves around a
discovery that certain cells in the donated organ, called macrophages,
are recognized by the host's body as ''foreign.'' When an organ is
seen as foreign, the body's immune system works to expel it, similar
to the way it attacks invading disease organisms.

     Because of this reaction, it is now necessary to select organs
from donors whose tissues appear as compatible as possible with the
recipient's immune system. And doctors often must also use drugs to
turn off the immune system to avoid rejection despite careful matching
of donors and recipients.

     ''Our evidence indicates,'' Silvers added, ''that if one kind of
cell - the macrophage - is eliminated from the transplant, unmatched
grafts do better than matched ones.

     ''It seems,'' he said, ''that the recipient only recognizes the
graft in terms of the MHC (major histocompatibility complex, or
surface markers) of its macrophage. When these cells are eliminated,
such grafts cannot be recognized as foreign in mismatch recipients.''

     A scientist familiar with Silvers's work, Dr. Jonathan Sprent, a
pathologist at the University of Pennsylvania, said ''the problem,
from a clinical point of view, is that it's not easy to get rid of
these'' macrophage cells from a donated organ. ''It can be done by
culturing certain tissues in vitro (in a laboratory dish) for
prolonged periods, and it has been done in Australia for thyroid or
parathyroid'' gland tissue.

     ''That's all right for a thyroid or parathyroid in mice, but it's
very difficult to do that in people,'' Sprent said. ''You can't put a
heart in vitro for a month.''

     Silvers did note that ''although methods are avilable to
eliminate macrophages from the tissues of mice and rats, these methods
need to be improved to eliminate such cells from human organs. It is
believed if this is accomplished, then transplants may be accepted
with impunity.''

     Winn suggested, however, that instead of hearts and kidneys,
''the first use of this technique might be to transplant healthy
insulin-producing cells of the pancreas into diabetics. .-.-. If this
technique works, then by using the mismatched tissues the disease
would be less likely to recur.''

     Sprent said that if insulin-producing cells were the tissue being
transplanted, ''then one could possibly do this.''

     END

nyt-07-16-83 0207edt

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  1 Aug 1983 11:17-PDT
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #37

     Being something of a Tolkien fan, my copy of "Unfinished Tales"
was a first edition, bought as soon as Blackwell's in Oxford could
fill a standing order.  I liked it; it is much like "The Silmarillion"
in tone and content, being a collection of unfinished works that
Christopher Tolkien has edited from his father's manuscripts.  It
includes a longer, more depressing version of the tale of Turin
Turambar than in the Silmarillion, and some shorter material on folk
in Numenor.  In other words, if you liked the Silmarillion, you will
probably enjoy some of the Unfinished Tales; if you particularly like
the humor and characterization in LOTR which is missing from the more
"historical" treatments given the material in the Silmarillion, you
probably will find the Unfinished Tales dry.

     It isn't necessary to fork over $15.00 for the pleasure: the
paperback edition is out.  Also, Publisher's Clearing House in New
York is remaindering the hardback for $2.95 or $3.95, (which means
that Dalton's or Walden's or one of the other excuses for a bookstore
are probably also selling it for less than publisher's list price).

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 1983 1452-EDT
From: Mark <MARKT@MIT-XX>
Subject: Gor

     Most of the Gor books are shlock, but there was one book in the
series that I liked -- the first book, "Tarnsman of Gor".  The plot
was fast-paced and involving, and there was hardly any subjugation or
muscle-flexing.  The only problem with "Tarnsman of Gor" is that it
might prompt you to read the other books in the series.  The second
book is somewhat bearable, but after that, they all seem to be
ridiculous.



------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 83 20:53:49-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Transporter; why it can"t do that

     Thought I would throw my $0.02 in. Ignoring the animated series,
it is fairly simple to argue that the transporter can not "store" the
information used for transportation. Simply put, no one said it is a
digital process. It could very well be an analog device. Consider the
vast amount of computing it takes to do a fourier transform, and then
remember that it can be done easily with optics in an analog manner.
Being even more extreme, all of us can change ice to water and then
back to ice, without having to save information about the crystaline
structure of ice. Perhaps we are to used to thinking in terms of
digital processes, and ignore the fact that the universe is not
usually a place of only 1's and 0's.

                                Eric Bergan
                                ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 83  18:05 EDT (Mon)
From: Mijjil the Hutt (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: TZ Episode 1 -- Niedermeyer

     I think the connection that no one has made is that John Landis,
the directory of "Animal House" directed this segment and it was his
own little "dig" to toss in the comment about Niedermeyer...

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 83 19:41:34 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Twilight-Zone Episode Guide...

Hi All:

     We have available, for your perusal, a Twilight Zone Episode
Guide perpared by none other than our own Lauren Weinstein and Saul
Jaffe.  If you would like a copy, I will be more than happy to send it
to you (I'd post it as a special digest, but it is 72,906 characters
long...).

     Please send any requests to SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers.

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 83 1:26:14-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!steve @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Star Trek II--Star Wars VI

     I think it was pretty rude of Lucas et al to force the name
change of Star Trek II from Vengeance of Khan to Wrath of Khan because
Vengeance sounded too much like Revenge of the Jedi, and then they
changed their name to Return of the Jedi.  Blake Edwards should have
sued them on that one.

        zinfandel!steve

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 83 16:39:55-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SW goof (OB! not knowing about Leia in TESB)

     Actually, after that last scene in Dagobah* when Yoda says "There
is another", that is, after, the scene fades, Obiwan says,

     "Oh, yeah, right. How stupid of me. Sorry, Yodie."

                                        Jim

* See next letter

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 83 16:41:00-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Unnamed planets

     Recall I mentioned the planet in the Hoth system, and the moon of
Endor?

     What about the planet in the Dagobah system?

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 83 16:45:34-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Burger King Glasses

     I saw this in a Burger King today:

                      Return of the Jedi Glasses

                              This Week

     Gee, I thought you could keep 'em!

                                Ha-ha Hel.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 83 9:38:54-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!mabgarstin @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: rain in ROtJ

     I noticed that to in prints being shown at Hamilton Ont., Toronto
Ont.  and Oceanside Calif. so it must be intentional. I rule out the
possibility of some photograhpic or filming error because, after all,
this is a $M Lucas production. I noticed in the scene at the beginning
where DV comes down the platform of his shuttle (the most obvious
scene with this so called rain) that there was a lot of venting gasses
eminating from the shuttle. At first I assumed that what I was seeing
was some residue of these gasses but they persisted in a more wider
angle shot. It somehow didn't quite fit.

       Return of the Rain

     When the big E comes on board there's some more of the rain as
with DV but again the effect just doesn't seem to have proper
continuity. Maybe it is something to do with the force, some sort of
eminance to instill a sense of fear into the hearts of the
stormtroopers already waiting at attention in the cavernous landing
bay. (poetic, aren't we)

                                           MAB
                                       (in the lab)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Aug 83 2144-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #39
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 2 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:
     Books - J.R.R. Tolkien & Robert A. Heinlein & Terry Brooks &
                          Charles W. Runyon,
    Film - Krull (SPOILER!!!) & WarGames (2 msgs) (SPOILER!!!!) &
               Twilight Zone:  The Movie (SPOILER!!!!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 August 1983  09:44-EDT (Tuesday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SR.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: Tolkien, etc.

     This doesn't sound right (that due to editorial pressure Tolkien
was unable to revise The Fellowship after he finished The Return of
the King).  First of all, there are hints of what Aragorn's real aim
in life is when the Fellowship is being formed at Rivendell - he sits
beside Arwen at one fancy dinner, and when he misses a dinner that
she's at, Bilbo makes a pointed comment (along the lines of, "we
missed you at dinner, the Lady Arwen was there").  Secondly (from
notes by C.S. Lewis) Tolkien had the Lord of the Rings practically
completed (some names were later changed) and had it rejected by many
publishers, to the point where he dispaired of ever seeing it in
print.  Lewis suggested that he send it to a student of his
(Tolkien's) in the publishing business - any student who might be
willing to publish it as a favor. Tolkien sent to Rayner Unwin, who
did just that.

        David Kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1983  9:14:49 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: HEINLEIN

     A short, incomplete but hopefully accurate bit of context re
Robert Heinlein, why we have read him, and what to read:

     To understand Heinlein better, it helps to consider the context
of:

        1.  The state of science fiction when he began
        2.  The times in which he wrote
        3.  How old many of us sf-lovers were

     Heinlein entered the scene in what became "the golden age of
science fiction" (often known as 15) -- a time when technical
versamilatude, creative projection, and good plot were higher on the
general editorial priority list than "good" writing, 3D characters,
literary value ((I generalize, and this is not the whole truth.)) .

     Working to a large extent through the medium of "juveniles",
Heinlein brought a degree of believeability, integration of real-world
activities and more science/engineering disciplines and put them all
together...  this isn't coming out clearly.  I think the answer is:
look to Heinlein's "juvenile" works -- the ones which ran in Boy's
Life, etc.

        RED PLANET
        THE ROLLING STONES
        TUNNEL IN THE SKY
        CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY.
        HAVE SPACE SUIT, WILL TRAVEL
        BETWEEN PLANETS
        FARMER IN THE SKY
        and others (I'm sure corrections/emendations will follow)

     These are basically good, readable, honest books, utilizing a
convincing mix of current-to-the-time scientific knowledge (astromony,
physics, anthropology, sociology, engineering...) with projecting a
future, and a few breakthroughs or mild impossibilities.

     They are a lot of what I grew up with, and they're still
pleasant.

     Heinlein played a major role in the popular acceptance of sf in
general markets, the "slicks" (a certain class of magazines), and in
developing the concept of "hard" science fiction, written with slide
rule in hand.

     Enough already.  As a reader, I haven't enjoyed all RAH's work to
the same extent, but let's not trash to excess.  Okay?

     Also recommended, by Heinlein:

        WALDO, and MAGIC, INC (two novellas)
        (Universe?) -- forget the exact title, the generation-ship
                pair of novellas
        EXPANDED UNIVERSE -- a lot of essays BY Heinlein, giving much
                more direct insight.  Also fun non-sf fiction shorts.

Daniel Dern,
BBN-UNIX

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 83 15:47:39-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!cbosgd!osu-dbs!paul @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: TsoS

     I got so bored reading the first three chapters of The Sword of
Shannara (which proclaims that it is "epic fantasy") that I quit.  I
just can't put up with a ripoff work that is so slow.

                        hope our sprinklers work
                        Paul Placeway

                        ...!cbosgd!osu-dbs!paul

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 83 10:42:16 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Pugh.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Charles W. Runyon title

     I believe the name of the book that Steven Gutfreund described in
SF-LOVERS Digest V8 #37 is "I Weapon".  Although I read the book quite
a while ago and have forgotten some of the details, I would put the
book at an ok level -- I wouldn't pay today's price of $3.95 for it
(anyone care to place bets on when the first line of books start
hitting $5.00?)

/Eric

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 83 13:52:51 EDT
From: SHERMAN@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Movie Review ==> Krull

            *Proof that you shouldn't be Krull to be kind*

     Opening on the 29th of last month, `Krull' manages to take
elements from all sorts of movies and books and come up with a montage
of boring scenes and characters which would make even a blind and deaf
man blush with embaressment.

     The plot revolves around this prince who has just seen his father
killed by these nasty invaders from space who have a close resemblance
to the Cylons. Gosh, I knew they would be nasty because they came from
outer space in a big rock spaceship with nary an amount of graffetti
on it.  Whatsmore, they also kidnapped his Bride but didn't bring any
wedding presents.

     From here on things get worse as an old `wise' man leaves his
solitude for the chance to help out the bereaved prince. Yawn.  Along
the way to the fortress they must get the mystical frisbee called the
Glave and meet up with a dumb magician, a bunch of nice robbers, a
Cyclops, and a blind seer.  Just to make matters more complicated the
(Star Wars) Kenobi clone must run around on a big web to say hi to an
old girlfriend who can find out where the big rock is, because it
moves around to avoid paying a parking ticket. Snore.

     Well needless to say they get to the fortress because the Cyclops
took a peek at the script and read about the Fire Mares, a horse who
can go further than any taxi. The band of adventurers run in, the
prince throws the frisbee at the Beast <actually a close copy of the
Creature from the Black Lagoon> who controls the nasty troops, and the
main characters escape alive.  The escape is followed by a few
explosions and flying sparks. The end.

     Or is it?? There are many ill concealed references to many
sequels (aaaieee!). This, more than anything else, terrified me into
going to see `Vacation' right after the end credits crawled by. After
all, I was in definite need of entertainment after watching Krull!

     So what is exactly wrong with this ill concealed mess?? To begin,
the acting is stiff and nothing to write home about. More than a few
lines are muttered to the point where you could swear that the actors
had swallowed their contracts in an effort to get out of the film
("Did I sign something? You're kidding! I don't remember that!").  The
script is exceedingly poor because it comes off lifeless and flat, and
contains few surprises.  The so-called action sequences are so boring
that you might get an urge to go home and clean your room just for a
little excitement (whats that under my bed-yipes!).

     There are LOTS of little details which remind you of other films.
My favorite is the noise made when the swords clash between invader
and defender; hey, is that a light saber I hear?? Nah, couldn't be!
The soundtrack sounds like a montage of Star Wars, Close Encounters,
and ET, as composed by an overzealous porn star with a bad case of
herpes.

     The cinematography is nothing to cheer about either (although
sneering is allowed). Only one scene, when the seer bites the big one,
has any zest to it. Otherwise it looks like it was filmed as an ABC TV
movie of the week. The only thing missing are commercials.

     To conclude, I can't say many good things about this movie. It
will PROBABLY win the admiration of those people who enjoy any movie
which deals with a science fiction/fantasy theme, and who have no
discriminating taste. Otherwise, its best seen at a drive-in theater
with a blond in the front seat and a glint in your eye.

                                *Steve*

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 83 3:34:18-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Nuclear War [Wargames] - (nf)

     Not to continue in the current direction, but...

     First, I agree with most of what lauren says in the base article.
However:

     Sure, the statement "The only way to win is not to play" doesn't
tell you how to avoid playing the nuclear war game, but it is a nice,
elegant, trite saying, anyway, and it sums up the essential problem
very nicely, I believe.  (What do you expect from a movie with an
ancient IMSAI in it?)

     Besides, WOPR wasn't programmed to avoid nuclear war, it was
programmed to find out how to WIN it.  And the above statement is the
answer to that question (sort of).  Of course, now that WOPR knows
that to win you must avoid it, it should go on and discover how to
avoid nuclear war (if it is a good little computer).

     Perhaps that solution comes in the sequel [:-)] (shades of
Colossus).

Marion                    {hp-pcd, teklabs}!orstcs!hakanson

------------------------------

Date: 2 August 1983 1119-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Steven.Clark@CMU-CS-A
Subject: wargames

     Did anyone notice that what's-his-face (the hero) made airplane
reservations for his heroine, and later he was accused of having two
ticketstickets to Paris ("Who is he?" (the spy that got him into
this)).  The reservations were not his nor was there any way to trace
them to him.

     Oh never mind.  You can't expect a movie to be @i(consistent)!

-steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Aug 83 10:38 PDT
From: RStandifer.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: TZ Helicopter Segment

     Regarding the original outline for the VietNam sequence: I read
in StarLog Magazine (I think) that Morrow's character realizes the
error of his ways and attempts to save two VietNamese children from
the American soilders.  In accordance with the other segments in the
movie I would assume that he succeeded in his goal and becomes a
better person after he finds his way home.  During the filming
however, as he is saving the children via a rowboat the helicopter
crashed .... and you know the rest.

     Another note: Did anyone notice Rod Serling's cameo in the pupil
of the eyeball after they unlocked that door with the key of
imagination?  I thought that was quite well done.

--RaeLynne (new addition to SF-Lovers Digest)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Aug 83 2033-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #40
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 3 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:
                     Administriva -  Odds & Ends,
 Books - David Kyle & L. Ron Hubbard & Robert A. Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                J.R.R. Tolkien & Larry Niven (2 msgs),
           General Query - Anyone Have a WorldCon Schedule?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 83 19:17:52 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Administriva Odds & Ends

To All:

     1.  Some of you have received "double digests" over the past few
days.  This was do to some system down time.  When the system went
down, in each case, it was shortly after a digest had been sent out
and was winding its way through the mailing system.  When the system
came up again, instead of continuing where it had left off, the mailer
went back to "square one" and started mailing again.  I have asked the
Powers That Be if there is some way around this.  A few suggestions
have been thrown around, hopefully the problem will be solved shortly.

     2.  Yesterday's digest went out very late, for which I apologize.
Again, due to system problems, the digest that was waiting to go out
was lost.  Luckily, we do have backups, and after some waiting, the
digest was sent out again.

     3.  I am announcing (for all to see), the recently negotiated
policy concerning "message splitting" in digests.  You may have
noticed a tendency lately for me to confine messages in a digest to
one subject...or if there are multiple subjects, they are usually
closely related.  When a message comes in with two or more widely
diverse subjects, the following procedure will be taken: When the
message comes in, I will send a message to you and ask your permission
to split the message into separate subject headings.  I will also ask
you if would prefer to split the message yourself.  If you would
rather not have the message split, it will be placed in a special
"mixed message" section of the digest.  This procedure is also being
done to protect the "spoiler warning" system--mixed messages with
subjects that are still in the spoiler stage of discussion (recent
film releases, for example), will contain spoiler warning headings,
just as un-mixed spoiler messages do.

     4.  I have recently received a request to delete messages that
run a subject into the ground.  Instead of making and "arbitrary"
decision and developing a policy on my own, I would like to hear more
from the readership.  Should I delete messages (of course, crediting
the other authors) if the subject matter is a duplicate to previous
messages?  Or should I continue the current policy of trying to
publish every message that comes in?

     This is your chance to influence SF-Loves "policy", let's hear
your opinions!

     5.  Many have asked for copies of the Twilight Zone episode
guide.  We also have a Dr. Who episode guide if anyone would like a
copy.  Now, for the ten million dollar question.  Is there anyone out
there who would like to do similiar guides for such shows as Star
Trek, The Outer Limits, Rocky Jones, and others?  If so, feel free to
send them to me, and I'll be glad to maintain a copy here and send it
out to anyone who is interested...

     6.  An finally, SF-Lovers will not be published from August 31
until September 6, unless my plans change drastically.  Unfortunately,
as I first planned, I will not be going to WorldCon.  Instead, I will
be moving to a new home, which will probably take up all of my time
during that period.  Also, there will be not SFL from October 21
through October 31, 1983.  My plans for that period?  To get married,
and then to go on vacation.  It's been a long wait for both!

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 83 13:16:27-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!machaids!raw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Kyle's Lensman books?

     Has anyone read any of Kyle's Lensman books?  I remember seeing
one several years ago, but saw two more a couple of days ago.  They
have something on them about being "based on Doc Smith's notes" or
something of that form.  After having being turned off by the Imperial
Stars stuff, I'm a bit hesitant to buy these, but then again, I *did*
like the original Lensman stuff.  Can someone tell me how they compare
to the original Lensman books?

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 83 14:21:54-PDT (Tue)
From: sun!altos86!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Battlefield Earth

     Does anyone have any impressions of Battlefield Earth by L. Ron
Hubbard - good, bad or indifferent? I've noticed a couple of
bookstores pushing it very heavily.

                                        Eric Smith

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 83 20:00:27-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!gummo!whuxlb!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heinlein's foibles - (nf)

     Does any one out there know where I can find the Heinlein
story/novel/paper called "And He Built a Crooked House"???

                        thnks,
                        harpo!whuxlb!eric
                        .

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 83 17:39:40 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Heinlein

     In Stranger in a Strange Land, both the characters of Foster and
Digby come off to me as parodies of advertising salesmen, on Earth and
in Heaven. If this isn't irony, I really don't know the meaning of the
word.  I agree that the ending of the book was not that good, but I am
emotionally biased on favor of the book for personal reasons, and so
have little ability to objectively criticize it. I do not think it is
his best work.

     But I don't know what book I would give that name to; I learned a
lot of science from his juveniles when I was one; that and Star Trek
turned me on to Science in general. I learned many things about life
from his books, mostly form the Notebooks of Lazarus Long, which is
all of his "philosophy" in one place. Number of the Beast seems to be
one big in joke; the last chapter is a large Science Fiction
Convention with most of the people there being characters from his
other books. I have not identified all of them, and I think I have
read about 95% of what he has written. It is not a good book to read
first.

     The best book to get by Heinlein is probably The Past Through
Tomorrow: the Future History of Robert Heinlein. (the subtitle may be
garbled.) This si collection of almost all of his shorter works in one
cover, in chronological order **of the "history" they are recording.**
There are a few missing from the "history", but they don't appear to
be major. There is a timeline chart included; Universe is listed,
which became part of Orphans in the Sky. This is not the only timeline
he has written on; I can think of two others in which he has based a
few stories. Another good book is Assignment in Eternity, four short
stories collected, one of which is a "prequel" to Friday, his latest
work.

     Heinlein seems to be someone that is either loved or hated. He
tends to mock out Stranger in a Strange Land with his own characters
in later books, and to mock out writers in general. I think the reason
that he is popular is that no matter what his characters are doing,
they want to be doing it, and seem to be having fun doing so, and that
seems to be a large part of what most people look for in life.

     At least, that is one of the reasons I like him.

                         As I climb into my asbestos suit,
                              /amqueue
                              Anne Marie Quint
                              quint@ru-green

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1983 2344-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX>
Subject: About Lord of the Rings

     I am amazed at the thesis that an editor pushing an author to get
a story finished could possibly make the story better.  Tolkein, in
fact, was not pressured by any editor into getting LotR done on time.
He started writing it before The Hobbit was published (in 1937), then
went back to working on the legends and philolgy of Middle-Earth, not
finishing LotR until 1949 (WW2 had something to do with the long
delay).  The book was written more or less straight from beginning to
end, and then it had to be "rewritten backwards" to make the whole
consistent.  Apparently it was not actually published until 1955.

     In part, the characters determined the story as it was written
(if you understand what I am trying to say), but parts of the story
were "foreseen from the outset" and the main theme resulted from "the
inevitable choice of the Ring as the link between it and The Hobbit"
(I am quoting from the intro to Fellowshp of the Ring).  It is true
that, when the hobbits reached Bree, Tolkein had no more idea than
they why Gandalf was late, or who Strider was.  I never understood how
that could be until recently, but in the last few years I have been
helping my wife create fantasy (strictly for our own and our friends'
amusement) and we have found the same thing to be happening.
Characters do the strangest things, often absolutely against what we
want them to do, but always act consistent with their own natures, as
we find out in the end.  And random events (sometimes determined by
several people acting independently) have a strange way of combining
to show us consistent things about our world and the characters who
inhabit it that we would never have thought of on our own.  It is as
if we are not creating a story, but rather reporting the history of
some other reality.  Tolkein felt this way about The Lord of the Rings
and succeeds in making me feel that way, and that is one of the
reasons I liked it.

     Tolkein talks a lot about "sub-creation" (as he calls it) at the
end of his essay "On Fairly Stories," reprinted in The Tolkein Reader
(originally part of the book Tree and Leaf).  I don't know how one
would reach a state of "the characters taking control of the story"
(as Charles Martin so aptly phrased it), but I recommend this essay to
anyone who is interested in doing it.

     By the way, in the introduction to The Hobbit (second edition),
Tolkein says that he altered a part of the story to match The Lord of
the Rings!  Tolkein says that in this edition "the true story of the
ending of the Riddle Game... is now given in place of the version
Bilbo first gave to his friends, and actually set down in his diary."
To me, this alteration only increases my sense of the reality of
Tolkein's story.  You see, on rereading The Hobbit, I realized that it
describes the same world as Lord of the Rings, except from a slightly
different (and more naive) point of view.  For example, compare the
descriptions of Elrond and Rivendell in the two books.  The fact that
honest Bilbo didn't tell the truth about how he got the ring fits
right in, and also tells us something about the Ring itself.

        Enjoy,
        Larry

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1983 1845-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-SPEECH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Donor Technology.

     Be warned that I know nothing about medicine. It occurs to me
that if you can install a whole organ without your body detecting it
as foriegn trivially, then couldn't you make bio-engineered plagues
that were likewise undectable?

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1983 9:17-PDT
From: dietz%usc-cse@USC-ECL
Subject: Re: Niven's jig saw people coming to life ?

     Let's also not forget that new wonder drug, cyclosporin-A.  It is
very effective at stopping rejection, does not inhibit the body's
response to disease organisms, and is suprisingly nontoxic.  It's
already being used in liver, heart and kidney transplants, with very
encouraging results.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 3 Aug 83 19:20:02-EDT
From: Gene Hastings <HASTINGS@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Anyone have Worldcon Schedule??

     Can anyone give me a summary of (or does anyone have online) the
schedule of events for Worldcon? I registered late and have only
received ballots so far.

                                      Thanks,
                                      Gene

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Aug 83 0804-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #41
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 5 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 41

Today's Topics:
       Film - The Return of the Jedi (12 msgs) (SPOILERS!!!!!)































----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 83 20:37:10-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!oliveb!toml @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: More errors between ESB and RotJ

     I just saw RotJ a couple of weeks ago, and I might be mistaken,
but I thought I noticed the following errors between the scenes of
Darth Vader's head in ESB and RotJ.

     1] In ESB, we se the bakside of DV's head, and it seems that he
has a "cauliflower-head".  In RotJ, DV has a truncated cone for a
head.

     2] In RotJ, Luke has to first take off the cowling, then unsnap
the machinery around DV's head before he can get it off.  In ESB
however, the whole head-piece is lowered onto DV's head, cowling and
all without any trouble.

                            Dave Long
                    {ucbvax|decvax}!decwrl!ios!oliveb!toml

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1983 0224-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: ST II & SW VI

     Actually, it was "The Revenge of Khan"...

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 2 August 1983  09:31-EDT (Tuesday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SR.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: SW goof

"Date: 28 Jul 83 13:42:54-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!edward at Ucb-Vax
To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
Re:   SW goof

     In TESB, Obi-Wan says that Luke is their last hope, but Yoda
corrects him by saying that their is another.  It seems that Obi-Wan
never knew about the other before this moment.  But in RotJ we find
out that OB-1 (I'm getting lazy) knew about Leia from the beginning.
In fact he was the one who hid her from Vader in the first place
knowing her future possible importance."

     "It doesn't make sense that OB-1 should make his "That boy is our
last hope.." comment if he knows damn well that Leia is around."

     But he doesn't know she's around!  Obi-Wan got this message out
of the blue (transported by droid, no less) from the Princess, saying
the Rebellion needed him, so he rushes off to Alderaan - to which he
arrives shortly after the Death Star (original model) has blown it up.
(Naturally, he is rather upset by this).  When he, Luke, Han, Chewie,
and droids arrive on the Death Star, Obi-Wan goes off to shut down the
tractor beam before R2D2 finds out that the Princess is alive and in
the dungeon, as it were.  Obi-Wan dies before he gets back to the
ship; he never knows that Leia has been found.

     Whether or not you decide this is a goof really hinges on one
thing: as a hologram, is Obi-Wan aware only of what goes on while he's
visible?  If not, then he should know that the vision that sent Luke
running off is not just a random vision of his friends (Obi-Wan would
assume Han, Chewie, and droids probably, or maybe Biggs and anybody
else from Tatooine who had joined the rebellion) but a vision that
includes Leia.  Yoda knows this because he heard what Luke said after
the vision (I think he does mention Leia, though it has been awhile
since I've seen the movie), and because he explores the future in that
direction.  If Obi-Wan is only concious of what happens when he's
visible, then presumably after the fade-out Yoda tells him that Leia
is indeed alive, but in the hands of her father.

        David Kaufman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Aug 83 11:06 PDT
From: RStandifer.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Yoda, the Emperor, and The Force

     A while back someone made a comment about the Emperor feeling a
disturbance in the force caused by Yoda, saying that it would be
impossible since Yoda has been around alot longer than the Emperor.
Even though I don't remember this discrepency in the movie, it is a
good point.  But I would like to submit for your approval (or
disapproval) that if this occurred after Yoda died or after Yoda had
begun to die there would be a noticeable change in the Force.

--Rae Lynne

------------------------------

Date: Tue 2 Aug 83 23:57:08-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: SW VI "rain"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The "Rain" in RotJ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     Don't completely rule out the possibility of its being a
photographic or filming error because it was a $M Lucas production.
Remember how all except the very early prints of SW IV lacked that
"Close the blast doors!  Close the blast doors!" line?  Well, all the
later prints I've seen (in a few dozen viewings) since the earliest
weeks of SW IV also have lip synch 'way off in the lines where the
fellow at Tarkin's conference of generals sasses Vader and ends up
with his face klunking down on the table when Tarkin tells Vader to
stop the psychic choking.

------------------------------

Date: 3 AUG 1983 0626 EDT
From: BUTLER at MIT-DMS
Subject: #2, Yes, the armor must go...

     Yes, the stormtrooper armor MUST go, if the remnants of the
Empire are to have a chance in Hell surviving, now that their central
control is gone. The Imperial Governors (who took over direct control
of their various sectors when the Senate was disbanded) are not going
to give the keys to the kingdom to the Rebel Alliance just because the
Emp and DV are out of the picture. It apparently took the total armed
might of the Rebel Alliance to defeat the fleet at Endor, where they
had the advantage of surprise (wouldn't you be surprised if YOUR Death
Star blew up?) The battle probably became a rout after the Executor
(Vader's flag ship) and the Death Star II went up(?) in smoke. The
remaining Imperial Governors probably have a fleet or two hanging
around, and if the Emp hadn't been playing his cards so close to his
chest, those fleets could have made the difference, and destroyed the
Rebel Alliance at last. Unfortunatly, those governors will probably
make their troops wear that damned white armor, so they pose no real
threat to freedom in the galaxy.

-----rlb

------------------------------

Date: 3 AUG 1983 0712 EDT
From: BUTLER at MIT-DMS
Subject: #4, Maybe DV and the Emp have little black clouds...

Well?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 83 8:59:35-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!hou5f!houxt!ronnie1 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: the 2nd to last hope

     I have a question about Luke.  What exactly did he do to warrant
being called the 2nd to last hope?  He didn't kill Vader, the Emperor
did that.  He didn't kill the Emperor, Vader did that.  He didn't
destroy the Death Star, Lando did that.  He did convert Vader back to
the good side, but so what?  Vader would have died in the Death Star
explosion anyway.  He did get both the Emperor and Vader on the Death
Star, but he didn't do that intentionally.  He thought that Vader
would not surrender him to the Emperor.

                                        houxt!ronnie1

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 83 12:32:11-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Transporter; why it can't do that

     Once again we come to the bane of any series written by more than
one person, especially SF television series: the fact that some
ignorant or hurried (or both) writer included a bonehead idea in one
episode makes it part of The Mythos, and there's nothing we can do
about that.  The worst example I know of of this sort of behavior was
the Superman comic book in the 60's, when several writers insisted on
coming up with new super-powers at the drop of a hat.  (Did you know
that super-ventriloquism works in a vacuum?)  From the invention of
any new idea such as this, it must be considered in each new
situation.  This makes exciting new plots harder and harder to come by
as good solutions become easier and easier.  For this reason Superman
has had to "forget" many of the powers he picked up in earlier years.
This is also the reason Larry Niven stopped writing the Known Space
stories: with the introduction of the Slaver stasis field, third
quantum hyperdrive, Ringworld floor material, and shadow square wire
(aka Sinclair monofilament and Stonecypher cable) it became
increasingly difficult to come up with situations which couldn't be
solved by some device he hadn't thought up earlier (this from the
introduction to "Tales of Known Space," if I'm not mistaken).

     There seem to be several solutions to the matter of "can the
transporter restore a dead but recorded person":

     A) No.  Those incidents in the series of restoring the old to
youth with memories intact and recording some signals while passing
others through must be discarded as the errors of a few bonehead
writers.

     B) Yes.  The implications of this technique of immortality have
been covered in John Varley's excellent novel "The Ophiuchi Hotline."

     C) Yes, but it's too expensive for civilian use (see my previous
article for my reasoning behind this).  This relieves us of having to
restructure the Star Trek universe around the idea of matter
duplication as a consumer service (my mind reels at the very thought)
but does not prevent the technique's being used in an exceptional
circumstance such as bringing Spock back from the dead.

     There are more, of course.  I think that the usual series-TV
approach of conveniently forgetting or altering the past will most
likely continue to be used.  Due to the pressures of series TV
inconsistencies are bound to creep in, and the Star Trek legacy is
pure series TV.  Recall the problems with Gumato/Mugato and
Vulcan/Vulcanian to present just two trivial examples.

-- David D. Levine
(...decvax!teklabs!tekecs!davidl)        [UUCP]
(...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1983 13:17:07-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: genders in SW IV

     In THE ART OF STAR WARS, there is a drawing showing a mature male
(full beard, etc.) wearing a cape and carrying a lightsaber in guard
position; an androgynous-to-female type is half-lying at his feet,
aiming a blaster (? (it's been a while since I checked)). This is the
only visible trace to go with an assortment of hints that SW was
originally written with only two leads; exactly what was extracted
from whom to make the three characters we know (e.g., was the female
ever called Lucy? (now wouldn't \that/ make an interesting set of
links---everything from anthropology to Narnia!)), Lucas hasn't said
publicly. It does seem unlikely that the female lead was ever intended
to be a Gothic-type "heroine". . . .

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 83 0:26:40-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!jack @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: It *is* Endor! - (nf)

     No, the moon *is* Endor!

     In RotJ, both DV & the Emporer refer to the rebels as being "on
Endor".  I heard them!

     However, the phrase "the forest moon of Endor" certainly seems to
imply that the moon is a sattelite of Endor, not Endor itself.

                      -Jack Applin IV
                      (ucbvax!decvax!cca!sri-unix!hplabs!hp-dcd!jack)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 4 Aug 83 04:07:32-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Light Sabers

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Light Sabers' Cutting Power in TESB ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     Mark Reilly complained that in the TESB duel, unlike in RotJ,
when the metal supports were struck they weren't cut through.

     Not so!  That scene out on the gantry is my favorite and I have a
poster-photo from it showing Vader holding out his hand (pleading with
Luke to join him), and in the foreground is a group of 2 or 3
stanchions(?) which had been sliced obliquely through during the duel,
with the cut surfaces and adjacent sides noticeably scorched.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 83 2132-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #42
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 6 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 42

Today's Topics:
      Books - David Brin & Arthur C. Clarke & Randall Garrett &
             Robert A. Heinlein (4 msgs) & P.C. Hodgell &
                       David A. Kyle (3 msgs) &
    J.R.R. Tolkien and Terry Brooks and Stephen Donaldson (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 83 11:30:44 PDT (Thursday)
From: Poskanzer.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: New book by David Brin.

     It's called STARTIDE RISING.  About the first 1/5th appeared in
Analog as "The Tides of Kithrup", which was excellent.  So far, the
rest of the book is even better.  There are some glowing comments on
the back cover:

     "Not since Stapledon has a writer succeeded so well in conveying
a sense of the strangeness of the universe and the infinite
possibilities which space and time must hold." - Poul Anderson

     "David Brin is one of the brightest lights on the SF horizon." -
Gregory Benford

     "Brin is a scientist who knows how to tell a story.  That's a
rare combination." - Jerry Pournelle

     $3.50 paperback from Bantam.

  --- Jef

------------------------------

Date: Wed 3 Aug 83 00:20:02-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: 2010

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Media "Sci-fi" Humor in Clarke's 2010 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     Steve Alexander, a buddy who reads SF-L via the local bulletin
board reports that in 2010 an archeologist digging in northern Africa
comes across some excitingly strange artifacts-- which turn out to be
stuff left behind after the filming of STAR WARS.  Elsewhere, when
they step aboard the ship "Discovery", Heywood tells the Russian, "If
you see the ship's cat, don't follow it."

------------------------------

Date: Wed 3 Aug 83 00:20:02-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Randall Garrett

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Randall Garrett's EARTH INVADER ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     This past fall, Leisure books issued EARTH INVADER by Randall
Garrett of "Lord Darcy" fame.  Splashed across the top of the cover it
says: FIRST TIME IN PAPERBACK.  I smiled cynically as I shelved it
next to ANYTHING YOU CAN DO, the Lancer paperback edition with the
original title.

     While just p-o-s-s-i-b-l-y Leisure didn't really know of the
previous p/b edition, the giving of the copyright date in roman
numerals (MCMLXII) leaves a nasty mind like mine strongly suspicious.

     Under such circumstances I would ordinarily say, "Boycott this
book!"

     BUT, darnit, it's too good to miss!  I don't know \why/ I like it
so well, but I enjoy it immensely.  It's not at all like the Lord
Darcy stories, except in competence.  And Garrett's work ranks high in
that.  Gordon Dickson once told me that Garrett was, in his opinion,
one of the three best writers/stylists (can't recall the exact term he
used) in the field.

     In the Introduction, Hank Stine says:

    "...even though Garrett avoided all overt humor, there is an
    undercurrent of satire which runs through the entire book, as
    the alien protagonist, the Nipe, constantly sees events from
    one point of view, while the humans see them from another,
    each hopelessly misunderstanding the motivations and actions
    of the other.

    "In a sense, EARTH INVADER is a comedy of manners.

    "It is also, like any good book, a great deal more, including
    an action-adventure novel, a mystery with a switch ending, a
    superman story, good old-fashioned space opera, sociological
    extrapolation, psychological SF and even a bit of the new
    wave."

     Looks like there's something there for everybody, so give it a
try!

------------------------------

Date: Thu 4 Aug 83 04:25:10-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Number of the Beast party

^^^^^ Guests at the Big Party at the end of NUMBER OF THE BEAST ^^^^^

     Yes, indeed, it WAS just like a big SF con.  (Didn't care for the
book, but l-o-v-e-d that party!)  But it WASN'T just characters from
Heinlein's earlier stories as attendees.  Among other actual people
there was at least \one/ real, live SF-LOVERS contributor.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1983 12:16:03-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: "And He Built a Crooked House"

     The best collection containing this is Clarke's TIME PROBE: The
Sciences in Science Fiction.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 83 13:40:35 PDT (Thursday)
From: Woods.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #40

     Re: And He Built a Crooked House, by Heinlein

     Near as I can tell, this is one of the most anthologised short
stories in all SF.  I think I have it in at least three of my books,
if not more.  I believe "6xH" (formerly titled "The Unpleasant
Profession of Jonathan Hoag") contains it.  It's also in "Fantasia
Mathematica", a fine collection of mathematics-based literature.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 4 August 1983, 17:31-EDT
From: Susan L. Felshin <SR.FELSHIN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: Heinlein

     I long ago decided that Heinlein's all-time worst book is
Farnham's Freehold.  Commiseration to whoever it was who read this one
first.  Runner-up is The Number of the Beast.  I haven't figured out
yet whether tNotB is Heinlein brilliantly satirizing his own style or
Heinlein stupidly imitating his own style because he is 1. lazy 2.
senile or 3.  out to make a quick buck and no longer cares about
writing well because he knows J. Q. Public will by his book and like
it no matter what in order to be able to claim to read and enjoy
science fiction.  Either way I don't like it.

     My personal favorite Heinlein novel is The Door Into Summer,
which is well-written, unpretentious, technologically consistent and
almost completely devoid of the typical thickly-laid-on Heinlein
Philosophy of Life, which has its good points, true, but gets really
annoying after a while.  The plot may not be the world's most
original, flooded with startling new visions of this, that, and the
other, but the elements which it uses are combined in new and
interesting ways, holding the reader's attention.  The characters are
actually real people, not the super-gods and -goddesses with which
Heinlein fills Time Enough for Love, Stranger in a Strange Land, and
so on.  I don't think it's his best novel, but it's the one I most
enjoy reading, and, I think, the most appealing of Heinlein's books to
the greatest variety of people, human beings as well as SF fans.

                                   -Sue Felshin
                                    PaFotSftPoRCD
                                    ABCDGoldfish?LMNOGoldfish!OSAR.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  4 Aug 1983 13:47-PDT
Subject: P.C. Hodgell
From: turner@rand-unix

                  REVIEW: God Stalk by P.C. Hodgell

     Author Hodgell continues the tradition of women authors who
conceal their sex by initializing their first names.  At least, I
think PC is a woman.

     "God Stalk" concerns the adventures of Jame in the strange city
Ta-tastigon, which is a holy place for every religion on the world
Rathillien.  Jame is a Kencyr, a race like man but not man, which has
fought for many years against an impending doom called Perimal
Darkling.  Jame is the last surviving member of her community -- or is
she?  Her past is confused.

     The Holy City of Ta-tastigon is a wondrous and delightful fantasy
construction.  To visit here alone is worth the cost of the book
($2.75, Berkley Fantasy, 0-425-06079-9275).  Ta-tastigon is filled
with an unlikely cast of characters and gods, all whom are active,
even the dead ones.  For the FRPers out there I would recommend this
book as a useful sourcebook on how to design an intriguing city.  This
would be a fantastic setting for a campaign.

     "God Stalk" is a tale of maturing and discovery, as Jame learns
about Ta-tastigon, her heritage and her past.  Hodgell has written
this well; Jame is believable and likable, even when herself confused
or misled.

     Hodgell overall is a fine writer.  She has a leaning towards
descriptive text, but without the overdone floweriness one sometimes
sees in fantasies.  She writes of believable if not inspired human
relationships.  Perhaps this is her weakest point.  Certainly her
fantasy vision is inspired (it reminds me, oddly, of the best parts of
Elric).

     A portion of this book appeared in "Clarion Science Fiction" (ed.
Kate Wilhelm) but though I've read "Clarion" I don't recall what part.
At any rate, this book is well integrated and its hard to tell after
reading it what part might have previously stood on its own.

     Warning: this book is clearly the start of a series of
indeterminate length.  While it stands alone on its own, it leaves
enough questions unanswered to ensure at least one sequel.

     Overall: 4 stars out of 5.  A high fantasy of unique flavor and
vision, backed by an active imagination.  Not quite mature enough to
rank with the acknowledged masterpieces, and not quite incisive enough
to make you twist in your seat.

                                -- Scott R. Turner
                                   turner@rand-unix

------------------------------

Date: Thu 4 Aug 83 03:50:05-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Lensmen series

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Kyle's LENSMEN Series Continuations ^^^^^^^^^^^^

     If you're absolutely devoted to the originals, these can only
tempt you to committing mayhem on their author.  ANOTHER female
Lensman besides the unique Clarissa?!!!  Horrors!!!!!

     But if you just \liked/ Smith's LENSMEN world and the clean,
jolly- boys'-adventure flavor, and rather wished there was more of
that type around without the discordant effect the out-of-date
technology of so much of Golden Age run-of-the-mill stuff-- I'd say
give them a try.  Don't expect pure quill Doc Smith, but a reasonably
worked out copy.  MUCH more akin to the originals than the Family
D'Alembert series, but Kyle has a lot, lot more in the way of models
to copy than Goldin does.

     Mini-review:  QX.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 83 16:02:00-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!moore @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Kyle's Lensman books? - (nf)

     I bought the one about Worsel (Dragon Lensman ?) and it one of
the few book I own that I have never been able to finish (Dhalgren is
the only other I can think of).  It purports to be a faithfull copy of
Doc's style, but I found it be mostly full of bad, turgid metaphysics.
If this was similar to any of Smith's writing, it could only be to
some of his more rambling work like Subspace Explorer and its sequel.
I was extremely disappointed.  I would be interested if there any E.E.
Smith fans who like these books (I am none to fond of the D'Alembert
series either).

        Peter Moore

        ...!ucbvax!moore
        moore@berkeley

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1983 12:15:57-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Kyle's Lensman books

     I read DRAGON LENSMAN---or at least waded through it. Bad writing
(although not as purple as Smith's) and very slow. It looks like he's
trying to do spinoffs, developing elaborate backgrounds for the other
3 2nd-stage Lensmen; unfortunately, the backgrounds are boring and the
way they are developed is worse. Z LENSMAN (?) \might/ be better but I
don't plan to read it.

        CHip
                (Chip Hitchcock)
                ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX
                usenet: ...{!decvax,!linus,!sri-unix}!cca!csin!cjh

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 4 August 1983, 17:31-EDT
From: Susan L. Felshin <SR.FELSHIN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: Tolkien's name space

     Long, long ago in a magazine far, far away, I read that many of
Tolkien's names for hobbits were taken from name of actual people
living in Kentucky or Tennessee or Virginia or some nearby state.
Somewhere in this country is a state full of Proudfoots!  (Proud\feet/
!)

                                   -Sue Felshin
                                    PaFotSftPoRCD
                                    ABCDGoldfish?LMNOGoldfish!OSAR.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 83 10:39:12-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!sb1!sb6!emory!gatech!roy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: of Rings, Shanarra, and Covenant

     Somehow I don't think it is too fair to pick on stories (Thomas
Covenant or The Sword of Shanarra) for being a rip-off of Tolkien.
After all, Tolkien didn't make it all up himself, he was just skilled
in borrowing from much older sources.  And so what if the Sword of
Shanarra is slow starting, the first hundred or so pages of LotR isn't
so fast moving itself.  Personally, I thought that the Sword of
Shanarra (and The Power that Preserves, for that matter) was pretty
bogus because I couldn't quite believe in the way the bad guy was
defeated, and I think Thomas Covenant needs some lessons on how to be
an effective human being.  I think that Donaldson's biggest problem
with the TC series is in creating believable characters.  I find it
very difficult to believe that real human beings would act the way his
characters do.

     By the way, I saw (in "The Reader's Guide to Fantasy") that there
is a third Chronicles of Thomas Covenant planned, although no titles
were given.  Any speculation about what may be in store for us in the
Land?

Roy Mongiovi

roy.gatech@Udel-Relay                           (ARPANET)
roy@gatech                                      (CSNET)

...!allegra!gatech!roy                          (UUCP/mail)
...!decvax!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!roy            (UUCP/mail/news)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  6 Aug 83 2142-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #43
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 83 2142-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #43
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 6 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 43

Today's Topics:
       Administrivia - Regarding the Transmission of SF-Lovers,
          Discussion - Aliens & Fan Politics & Our Future &
                             SCA (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 83 23:47:09 EDT
From: Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: in case someone asks you

     Some sites are going to start seeing the following message at the
beginning of their digests:

     "Delivery-Notice: While sending this message to FOO.ARPA, the
RUTGERS.ARPA mailer was obliged to send this message in 50-byte
individually Pushed segments because normal TCP stream transmission
timed out.  This probably indicates a problem with the receiving TCP
or SMTP server.  See your site's software support if you have any
questions."

     This message means more or less what it says.  As you may know,
the Arpanet is a packet oriented system.  That is, SFL digests get
broken up into packets for transmission.  These packets are
reassembled at your site into a complete message.  Your site tells us
how big a packet you are prepared to accept. Initially, we believe
you, and send fairly big packets if you are willing to accept them.
Your site is supposed to send us an acknowlegement that it has
received each packet.  (Actually you need not acknowlege each packet
individually.  There are ways to acknowlege a whole group.  But each
packet must be covered by an acknowlegement.)  If we do not get an
acknowlegement from your site for some packet after 2 minutes, we
conclude that something is wrong.  We then try a more conservative
strategy.  We use very small packets (50 characters), and wait for an
acknowlegement for each packet before sending the next.  (The protocol
does not require this.)  If we succeed this way, we put the header
shown above into the message.  We should not have to do this.  If most
of your SFL digests have this header, you should talk to your systems
staff.  Something is probably wrong.  If necessary, have them contact
HEDRICK@RUTGERS.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 4 August 1983, 03:39-EDT
From: Allan Wechsler <acw at SCRC-VIXEN>
Subject: Depicting Aliens

    "The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and problems in Depicting Aliens"

     In SFL 8:28, David Axler brought up some interesting points about
why it might be hard to relate to aliens.  I once did a research paper
for a linguistics class in which I talked about the Sapir-Whorf
Hypothesis, often called "Whorfian Relativism" in the literature.  I
thought I'd share some of the interesting and SF-ly relevant things I
learned while researching the paper.

     Linguists don't take Whorfian Relativism seriously any more.  But
they used to.  In the fifties, it was "common knowledge" that samples
from different speech communities exhibited different cognitive
behavior.  But no one actually had any experimental data to prove,
say, that Hopis and Frenchmen had different "mental codes".  The only
evidence was, at bottom, the simple fact that Hopis and Frenchmen
spoke wildly diffent languages.  Didn't that prove it?  Of course not
-- the reasoning was circular.

     In the late fifties and early sixties, Roger Brown and Eric
Lenneburg tried to put Relativism on firmer ground.  Their ingenious
experiments found correlations between color naming behavior
(linguistic) and color memory (cognitive).  Essentially, Brown and
Lenneburg showed that colors that are easy to name are also easy to
remember.  The experiment was confined to English-speaking students.

     The word went round that Relativism had been verified "in its
weak form".  Another researcher (I forget her name, alas) followed up
on Brown and Lenneburg by trying similar experiments with speakers of
other languages.  Again, a correlation between nameability and
memorability was found.  Even more intriguing: the "easily codable"
colors seemed to vary from language to language!  This was hot stuff.
The linguistic community felt that this verified Relativism in its
strong form.  They were just elevating Whorf to sainthood when two
things happened:

     1.  Chomsky started publishing on syntactic structures, and
         relativism was drowned out by something even more exciting;

     2.  People found flaws in the experimental technique of Brown's
         and Lenneburg's successor (dammit, /what/ was her name?).

     When the dust settled, Relativism was dead, dead, dead.  It
wouldn't "voom" if you put 40,000 volts through it.  Here are the
current beliefs:

     1.  Human languages are more alike than different.  There is wild
         variation, it is true, but it is variation on a theme.  There
         are no pairs of languages between which translation is
         impossible.  (Of course, purely linguistic objects like puns
         cannot usually be translated -- and there are other, equally
         obvious, exceptions.)

     2.  People all think pretty much alike.  That is, there is only
         one "mental language".  People's cognitive styles differ
         about as much as do speaking styles within one language.

     There is very strong evidence for this theory, which I will not
tire you with.

     There are two possible conclusions:

     1.  There is essentially only one sane way to think about the
         universe, and all sentient creatures think this way.

     2.  There are lots of ways to think sanely about the universe,
         and our first alien contact will be the first time we
         encounter really variant cognition.

     I can tell you're all rooting for #2.  Me, I think #1 would be
more profound.  I think studying mathematics has made me a 1-ist.

   --- Allan

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1983 20:18:26-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: fan politics

     (1) Your history is off; Asimov was not in the group that went
from NYC to Philly (ref THE IMMORTAL STORM, which lists Wollheim,
Pohl, Kyle, Michel, Sykora, and two unknowns).

     (2) After the two Philcons I've been to, I wouldn't say that
Philadelphia's reputation as a dull place (at least for fans) is
undeserved.

     (3) Chauvinistic---well maybe, in tone. But in practice the rest
of the world tends to be far more parochial than the US---there were
\maybe/ 200 people not from North America at Noreascon (5000+
on-site), compared with 1200 US fans at Seacon (3100 on-site).

     (4) Laziness? Well, not really; "courtesy" may have something to
do with it but the biggest part is sheer incompetence: there's no
place in the Central zone that could hack a decent Worldcon in 1985.
(1988 may be interesting if St.  Louis can get itself together.) This
is why many people familiar with the ebb and flow of Worldcons were
glad to see Baltimore win 1983---it left a plausible candidate
(Australia) for 1985.

     As for "most American fans [being] totally uninterested in seeing
the 'World'con occur in a non-English-speaking locale", who do you
think voted in Heicon (Heibelberg, 1970)? And Yugoslavia is looking
strong for 87 (?).  There has been damned little bidding for the
Worldcon from nEsl's; the most recent example, Copenhagen, was running
one of the most obnoxious bids I've ever seen. I also think you
seriously overestimate World SF, as it's an organization of pros.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 83 12:42:19-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!ihuxf!larry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: What's our future?

(I'm not exactly sure this falls into this net, but sf-lovers seems a
good start.)

     Many, many sf stories show us that in the far off future
technology will become more advanced than the people around it -- even
to the point where the society can maintain it.  For instance, look at
Asimov's Foundation series.  Here the knowledge got concentrated until
it disappearred (planets losing the ability to use nuclear power, etc)

     I can see this starting to happen in our own time.  Take
something as common place as an automobile.  It started off with
rather simple workings that most any high-school dropout could
comperhend and repair (no slur on high-school dropout, but that is the
image of the local garage mechanic of the 50's I'm thinking of).  Look
at a car today!  Smog systems and computer controlled carburation and
spark systems can only be serviced by ``special'' diagnostic centers
(read: dealers).  Even at these special centers, the repair is usually
black box replacement.  It is seems to be comming to that only the
designers will know how a car works!  You and I will still drive them
just fine, but my question is: Is this a good thing to happen?  In
most of the sf stories that come to mind, this attitude generally lead
to the downfall.  Is there any way to prevent this from happening and
still get all the benefits of technological advances?

     What do you think sf-lovers??  Are we headed for doom?

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1983 15:22:35-EDT
From: cjh@CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: SCA

     There's been quite a bit of nonsense about the SCA in this
digest. Since I am in no way an official speaker for any part of the
SCA and since this is getting rather far off the topic of the digest,
I'll put in a very short summary:

     1. The SCA is generally considered to cover over a millennium
temporally; common dates are ~500 (fall of Rome) to 1600.

     2. The original orientation of the SCA may have been Western
European in some peoples' minds, but this limitation has basically
been erased. There are in fact ronin* of various periods seen as well
as everything geographically between there and Ireland; the Fan Guest
of Honor at the 1984 Worldcon is known in the SCA as Mandarin Vuong
Manh. The tendency is toward peoples with established cities anywhere
in that period (but I haven't seen any African personas, which is a
big hole, and there have been woad-wearing Britons). A recent issue of
the SCA quarterly, TOURNAMENTS ILLUMINATED, was devoted entirely to
period Japanese subjects

     3. Jim Washburn's rodomontade may be answered (although not to
his satisfaction) since there will be some very capable ronin at this
year's war.

        CHip
        (Chip Hitchcock
        (CJH@CCA-UNIX
        (...cca!csin!cjh)))

* Japanese warrior (usually means unattached, since "samurai" means
"servant")

------------------------------

Date: 3 AUG 1983 0702 EDT
From: BUTLER at MIT-DMS
Subject: #3, SCA Heralds

     I believe that the SCA has fighting and non-fighting members, and
that non-fighting members are usually Heralds, or Pages, or something
like that. Unless the SCA has special rules concerning persons 12 and
13, as regards combat (i.e., a special sub-class of fighting personnel
for adolescents), a 12 year-old would probably be a Herald until old
enough for the Society to allow him or her to change his status and
join the ranks of the bruised and bedraggled freemen. Perhaps
Jim.Washburn@ cmu-cs-cad could be of help, since he is a member of the
SCA.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 83 17:14:24 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Tuchux in the SCA

"there were only 60 of us and we trashed the cream of both
kingdoms "

     Tuchux are a splinter group, quite literally. From what I
understand, having only been in the SCA for a year, they are only
considered part of the SCA for our annual war, Pennsic. (To be held
the weekend of 8/19/83) Tuchux do not fight by the rules of the SCA;
they are not concerned with the safety nor the courtesy that the SCA
has instituted in its fighting ranks. All tuchux are not like this,
I'm told; it is only the newer members who are not under the influence
of the original founders of the group. However, if I was a fighter and
saw a Tuchuck coming toward me, I would get out of his way quickly; I
have been told that some of them fight while on drugs, and that they
have been known to maliciously attack fighters. 60 people with real
knives and no regard for rules are certainly going to trash any other
people with wooden weapons and a regard for rules.

     I was planning on keeping an open mind when meeting them; I had
met one who did not seem like a horrible monster. But if they as a
group proudly proclaim the influence of John Norman, then on that
basis alone I would stay far away.

                                     /amqueue
                                     Anne Marie Quint
                                     quint@ru-green

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 83 17:19:27 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Roles for children in the SCA

     The only children I have seen at events have just been the
children of their parents, i.e. whatever their parents took as roles,
they were younger editions. Most of the children I have seen have been
under 10, so I don't know if this will properly answer your question.
As far as I can see, if the child/person wanted his/her own persona,
not necessarily connected to that of his/her parent(s), I cannot see
where that would be a problem. At most events there is a sprinkling of
time periods and costumes; I don't think it would be noticed.

                           /amqueue
                           Anne Marie Quint
                           quint@ru-green
                           Megan in the Barony of Settmour Swamp

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Aug 83 2025-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #44
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 7 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 44

Today's Topics:
          Film - Star Trek (4 msgs) & Krull (SPOILER!!!!!) &
                   WarGames (4 msgs) (SPOILER!!!!!)
















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 83 16:39:58-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!ittvax!bunker!bunkerb!garys @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Transporter; why it can"t do that

     I have seen several articles explaining why the transporter can't
store the information used to re-create the person(s) or object(s)
being transported.  Unfortunately for such arguments, it was used in
such a fashion in one of the TV episodes (name forgotten).  In that
episode, 6 Klingons held the Enterprise party of 6 at phaser
(blaster?) point, and elicited Kirk's promise not to try any tricks
"once they reached the ship."  Kirk pressed a button on the
communicator which signalled Scotty that there was a problem, however.
The 12 people disappeared from the planet surface, but only the 6 good
guys appeared in the transporter chamber.  Scotty then remarked that
the Klingons were "right here," tapping on the transporter console.
After the Federation personnel were safely out of the chamber, and
security guards were in place, then and only then were the Klingons
re-assembled, after having been stored for possibly a full minute.
So, yes, it is possible to store a disassembled person while
transporting said person.  And if information can be stored a minute,
it can be stored forever.  And if it can be stored, it can be copied.

Gary Samuelson
decvax!ittvax!bunker!bunkerb

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 83 21:15:18-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!ddw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Fun with Transporters

     Hey, in the Star Trek universe, the transporter \could/ store
people, at least temporarily.  Remember "Day of the Dove?"  The
Klingons force Kirk to beam them up to the Enterprise.  Kirk craftily
presses some panic button on his communicator and all the Enterprise
people appear in the chamber first, exit, and then the Klingons appear
once the Enterprise folks have the heavy guns trained on 'em.
(Arguments that the Klingons were beamed up in a separate pass do not
hold water, as they would most certainly have scattered, knowing
they'd been had, if they saw all the Enterprise people beaming up
first.)

     Trying to tie "Star Trek" to reality is, of course, silly, but
these arguments can be fun.

                             David Wright

                            {vax135|decvax|ihnss}!cornell!ddw
                            ddw.cornell@udel-relay
                            ddw@cornell

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 83 8:45:49-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fun with Transporters

     All right, I admit it. I had forgotten about "Day of the Dove"s
trick with the transporter. It does seem that you can delay the
transporter effect, and hence, "store" the intermediate information.

     But wait, maybe there is another solution. You can store the
person's pattern, but it takes lots of (memory, circuitry, knowledge
crystals).  This effectively means that the system can only be used in
a temporary fashion.

     Or better yet, maybe the way the pattern is stored in an
extremely volatile device. So maybe storage time is only a few minutes
(has to be at least a few minutes, I seem to remember several episodes
where Scotty sweats over the transporter board trying to beam some one
up).

     Don't you just love trying to come up with scientific
explanations for something that was done strictly for dramatic effect?

                                  eric
                                  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 83 12:32:11-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Transporter; why it can't do that

     Once again we come to the bane of any series written by more than
one person, especially SF television series: the fact that some
ignorant or hurried (or both) writer included a bonehead idea in one
episode makes it part of The Mythos, and there's nothing we can do
about that.  The worst example I know of of this sort of behavior was
the Superman comic book in the 60's, when several writers insisted on
coming up with new super-powers at the drop of a hat.  (Did you know
that super-ventriloquism works in a vacuum?)  From the invention of
any new idea such as this, it must be considered in each new
situation.  This makes exciting new plots harder and harder to come by
as good solutions become easier and easier.  For this reason Superman
has had to "forget" many of the powers he picked up in earlier years.
This is also the reason Larry Niven stopped writing the Known Space
stories: with the introduction of the Slaver stasis field, third
quantum hyperdrive, Ringworld floor material, and shadow square wire
(aka Sinclair monofilament and Stonecypher cable) it became
increasingly difficult to come up with situations which couldn't be
solved by some device he hadn't thought up earlier (this from the
introduction to "Tales of Known Space," if I'm not mistaken).

     There seem to be several solutions to the matter of "can the
transporter restore a dead but recorded person":

     A) No.  Those incidents in the series of restoring the old to
youth with memories intact and recording some signals while passing
others through must be discarded as the errors of a few bonehead
writers.

     B) Yes.  The implications of this technique of immortality have
been covered in John Varley's excellent novel "The Ophiuchi Hotline."

     C) Yes, but it's too expensive for civilian use (see my previous
article for my reasoning behind this).  This relieves us of having to
restructure the Star Trek universe around the idea of matter
duplication as a consumer service (my mind reels at the very thought)
but does not prevent the technique's being used in an exceptional
circumstance such as bringing Spock back from the dead.

     There are more, of course.  I think that the usual series-TV
approach of conveniently forgetting or altering the past will most
likely continue to be used.  Due to the pressures of series TV
inconsistencies are bound to creep in, and the Star Trek legacy is
pure series TV.  Recall the problems with Gumato/Mugato and
Vulcan/Vulcanian to present just two trivial examples.

-- David D. Levine
(...decvax!teklabs!tekecs!davidl)        [UUCP]
(...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 83 10:47:05 EDT (Thursday)
From: Heiny.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Krull to be kind

     I agree with Steve's assessment of Krull, on the basis that if
you are looking for an epic fantasy, this movie is NOT one to see.  If
you are looking for a space opera (and a rather silly one), then Krull
is pretty good.  You just have to approach it in the proper frame of
mind.

     Does anyone else out there think who has seen it think the script
bears an awful lot of resemblence to a D&D game set to film?  The
major characters seem to come from one of each class of character. I
wonder...

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 83 8:30:15-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dwex @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "Wargames" and "GOR"

     Wake up, Lauren!!!  Did you ever hear of "Jaws", "Towering
Inferno", "The Amityville Horror", etc., etc....?  All of these were
movies that all of us "rational" people didn't believe as far as we
could throw them.  But then how do you explain the sudden rash of
sharks scares on our nation's beaches, the haunted house flurry (that
one even made "That's Incredible"), and all the other related tripe?
Movies that are designed to be unbelievable always attract a lot of
attention.  That's what the producer had in mind.  If he can keep
enough people confused, then he has a hook for a sequel (you have
heard of JAWS 3-D, haven't you).  I think that WARGAMES was done the
way it was so that it would have exactly the effect that it did.  They
wanted people to ask questions.  If they had come out and said
"Nuclear war is stupid" in so many words, it probably would have been
ignored.  The easiest way to convince someone of something is to get
them interested enough to do a little research.  WARGAMES certainly
got a lot of people digging.


                                    'Nuff already
                                    David Wexelblat
                                    ...decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dwex

P.S.  Of course they were out to make money.  With the amount they
spent on it, they would have been stupid not to!

------------------------------

Date: 3 AUG 1983 0559 EDT
From: BUTLER at MIT-DMS
Subject: #1, Can't win the war?

     I haven't seen Wargames, but I would have to say that WOPR's
"misunder- standing" about whether or not it can "win the war" is
based on its programmed goals. You or I might run through many
scenarios of nuclear war, and then determine that there is no way to
win because of our human way of looking at the concept of nuclear war.
The cost in lives, materiel, and the effect of global thermonuclear
war on the race as a whole are concepts that we all understand because
of our "programming."

     WOPR's programs state that if, at the end of the scenario,
certain criteria are met, the war is won. Those criteria are based
upon the assumption that if They are in worse economic and military
shape than us, We are the winners. The criteria in question do not
concern them- selves with whether or not the United States will
actually continue to exist as a political entity, or if my aunt or
your sister or any other person or persons will survive. WOPR is
measuring two stacks of beans (their railroads, our railroads; their
aircraft, our aircraft; etc., etc., etc.), and if our stack of beans
is higher at the end, we win.

     As a result, no number of previous games would have taught WOPR
that nuclear war is not a game that can be won. I somehow doubt that
the Tic-Tac-Toe analogy would have done it either, but if the system
were ordered to consider the analogy valid, I suppose it might work.

---RLB

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1983  9:30:51 PDT
From: <lars@ACC>
Subject: Wargames Flight Reservations

"In:     SF-LOVERS V8 #39
Date:   2 August 1983
 From:   Steven.Clark@CMU-CS-A

... the reservations were not his nor was there any way to
trace them to him."

     This statement has come out a dozen times, so: When I make
reservations for two, the ticket agent always asks for both names. I
presume that IATA and FAA regulations demand that a passenger list be
made up for each flight; also of course this provides an easy
reference to the reservation at check-in time.  Therefore, the menu
screen of the reservation system has a field for passenger name, and
with any reservation, this field must be filled in.  Since the scene
in which the reservations were made looked like romantic teenage
daydreaming to me, I would presume that one of the reservations
carried the name of our young hero.

Lars Poulsen <Lars @ ACC.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 83 11:12:36 PDT (Thursday)
From: Mackey.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: War Games

"(the hero) made airplane reservations for his heroine"
-- Steven.Clark@CMU-CS-A

     Not only did they trace him without the tickets indicating who he
was, but they also kept asking him who he was going to Paris with
though you can clearly see *her* name on the display of the ticket
reservation. I guess the movie maker's mistakes are not limited to
errors in portraying computers.

~Kevin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Aug 83 2026-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #45
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 45

Today's Topics:
             Administrivia - WorldCon SF-Lovers Party???,
          Books - Terry Brooks & Randall Garrett (2 msgs) &
         Alexis A. Gilliland & Robert A. Heinlein (3 msgs) &
            L. Ron Hubbard & David A. Kyle & Larry Niven &
                       J.R.R. Tolkien (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 83 20:51:29 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: WorldCon SF-Lovers Party???

     David Axler has asked me to remind people that it is time to
start planning for a SF-Lovers party at WorldCon.  Although he cannot
donate the space, he is willing to help in the organization...

     If anybody is interested in working on such a project, send me
your name and network address.  I will publish it in a special section
of an upcoming digest, and you can all work it out between yourselves
(I won't be going, therefore I'd rather not get involved in the
planning!)...

     Enjoy!!!

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 83 10:57:38-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!gcsherwood @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: TsoS

     Just to keep the record straight, there really are some of us
(one, at least) who actually enjoyed "the boring ripoff" entitled
Sword of Shannara.

     Not only that, but I enjoyed the sequel, the Elfstones of
Shannara as well.  If I got pissed off every time I saw a plot reused,
I would have left sf long ago.  I rather doubt that Tolkien had the
first and only quest for magical powers against a magical enemy, so
saying that any other fantasy novel which does the same is a ripoff of
it is less than accurate.

     I mean, if you are in a fantasy situation, what is there to do?
Raise crops and quaff ale?

        - geoff sherwood -
        - U. of Waterloo -

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 83 14:08:35 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Randall Garrett

     I heard at a convention that Randall Garrett is actually the nom
de plume for two other authors collaborating. Does anyone know who
Randall Garrett *really* is?????

                                /amqueue
                                Anne Marie Quint
                                quint@ru-green.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 83 17:27:54 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Randall Garrett

     Randall Garrett is indeed one person.  The pen-name mentioned is
actually "Robert Randall", the pen name for the writing team of Robert
Silverberg and Randall Garrett.  It is indeed unfortunate that these
two gentlemen have not written anything together lately...

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 83 15:19:11-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!cires!nbires!ut-ngp!cmaz504 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Alexis A Gilliland (comments and query)

     Having heard so much about this book on the net I decided to give
it a try.  Alexis A. Gilliland's view of Texas politics is quite
humorous but the rest of the book was rather weak I thought. Does
anyone out there know anything about Gilliland? Is he a Texas chicano
or does he just like to write about them?

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 83 9:46:54-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!ittvax!wex @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Heinlein and predictions in general

     Daniel Dern's mention of Heinlein's novella "Waldo" brought to
mind an interesting fact.  In that story, a character uses artificial
hands that are controlled by glove-like items in which he puts his
real hands.  This device is now widely used (eg for handling
radioactives, and other dangerous items), and they are called
"waldoes" after the story.  So, in a sense, Heinlein "invented" these
things.  Can other people find examples of unique items that were
first propounded in SF, and were later brought to reality?  Are any
others named after their SF progenitors?  Mail your ideas to me, and I
will post a summary.  Please include the story where the idea
appeared, as well as the author and device (or idea, or theory, or
whatever).

Mail to:
Alan Wexelblat
decvax!ittvax!wex
or
decvax!ittvax!wex@BERKELY

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1983 2208-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Heinlein (more flaming)

     I thought NUMBER OF THE BEAST was horrible.  I struggled through
the whole thing hoping the ending would at least clear the plot up,
but it just left me more bewildered.  Not only the plot, but the
characters drove me crazy.  Heinlein hasn't the vaguest idea how to
write a believable female viewpoint character.  (It can be done by a
male author; for a fine example, see WORLDS by Joe Haldeman.)

     I actually liked TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE a whole lot (yes, I'll
admit it).  I consider it one of the most fun books I've ever read.
Heinlein was enjoying himself, and it came through.  (He carried it
too far in NotB, to the point where he enjoyed himself, but no one
else did.)  FRIDAY I considered okay, but in need of the services of a
good editor, and certainly not up to Heinlein's Future History tales.

     The book of his I disliked most was STARSHIP TROOPERS.  Not
because of faults of plot, etc., but because of the continual
lecturing.  The worst part of it was I could pick up flaws in his
arguments, but I couldn't answer them!  I was gritting my teeth half
the time, wanting to say, "But...but..."

     I'm not one of those who condemn Heinlein's writing because I
don't agree with many of his opinions.  When those opinions, however,
are expressed so obtrusively (often by having a teacher as a
character, to provide an excuse to lecture), they get in the way of
the story.

                                        Janice Eisen

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 83 14:12:59 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Convention in Number of the Beast

     I didn't say that *all* of the people there were characters from
his books; I just said that most of the ones that I identified were.
The Knight who was fighting is Poul Anderson; Arthur Conan Doyle is
there; Heinlein's wife is there. I'm not sure who else. Who have you
found who isn't a character? And who is the SF-Lover contributor?????

                                ta-ta
                                  /amqueue
                                  Anne Marie Quint
                                  quint@ru-green.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 83 14:39:27-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth

     I started Battle Field Earth (someone else's copy) and found it
too dull and unbelievable to continue.

     The book stores are pushing it heavily because the publishers put
A LOT of money into promoting it.  This is due mostly to L.Ron
Hubbard's success at starting a new, highly profitable religion.

     The book sold quite well at first, then sales dropped quite a
bit.

     Rumor has it (completely unsubstantiated, of course) that
Scientologists across the country were buying up to 10 copies each.

     At least the bid for the HUGO is over, it didn't make it onto the
ballot.

Alice Bentley  ...seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1983 1946-EDT
From: MDC.MIKE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Kyles Lensman Books

     I have read the two most recent works. I liked them well enough
so that I am looking for the first book ( scarce in stores ). Kyles
style and concepts are deliberately kept close to those of E.E.Smith -
if you kike the originals you should like the sequels. He has included
an occaisional concept that was unknown when the series originated (
LCD display, Black Holes ) {{ Smith would have had a BALL with Black
holes }}

     If Smith were alive and writing today, his output would probably
differ from his original style at least as much as these works differ
- or else he would not be \really/ alive but merely stuck in a rut.

     The Lensman books were landmarks in their day - today they seem a
bit dated.  I enjoy them but do not consider them Great Literature....

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 83 11:44:47-PDT (Thu)
From: menlo70!nsc!nessus @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re:  Niven

     It's been some time since I read any Niven, but...

     I believe that the book containing the transporter(teleportation)
article was "All the Myriad Ways".  In the books "A Hole in Space",
"All the Myriad Ways", and "Convergent Series", he presents the impact
that teleportation has on society.

     I like a lot of Niven's writing because it contains a lot of
high-tech/ hard science adventure stories in an SF setting.  Also, he
had some really neat(*really ALIEN*) aliens.  It's a shame he stopped
writing "Known Space".

                                                   Nessus

------------------------------

Date: Fri 5 Aug 83 22:15:24-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Elvish text

     Hi there, folks.  Someone just reminded me I told SFL many moons
ago that I have a book on Elvish, but never got around to reporting
the specifics.  For the gratification and amusement of all you Tolkien
readers out there in SFL land, here is its title page (dig that
title!):

                     AN INTRODUCTION TO

                           ELVISH

And to Other Tongues and Proper Names and Writing Systems of
     the Third Age of the Western Lands of Middle-Earth
           as Set Forth in the Published Writings
                             of
            Professor John Ronald Reuel Tolkien


                   Edited and Compiled by
                         JIM ALLAN

         from his own researches and from those of
NINA CARSON, BJORN FROMEN, CHRIS GILSON, ALEXANDRA TARASOVNA
   KICENIUK, LAURENCE J. KRIEG, PAULA MARMOR, LISE MENN,
                  BILL WELDEN, and others.


   As Authorized by the MYTHOPOEIC LINGUISTIC FELLOWSHIP,
                   a Discussion Group of
                  the Mythopoeic Society.

                        BRAN'S HEAD

                       Dedicated to:
                       RICHARD PLOTZ

 AN INTRODUCTION TO ELVISH
 Copyright  c  1978 by Jim Allan

 All Rights reserved.

 ISBN 0 905220 10 2


 First Published 1978 by Bran's Head Books Ltd.
 91 Wimborne Avenue, Hayes, Middlesex

 Cover design:  Christine Connolly

 This is not an official publication of the Mythopoeic Society

 Printed in Great Britain

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1983 2331-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Gds@MIT-XX>
Subject: Tolkien's Unfinished Tales

     I picked up a copy of Tolkien's Unfinished Tales just to take a
glance at it.  It was mildly interesting.  I wish I had taken a closer
look.  I'm sure the REAL Tolkien fan will appreciate it.

--bo

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1983 1323-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Uc.Gds at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #40

     About the naivete of the Hobbit:

     I think that it is written from the viewpoint of Bilbo in
particular, (Hobbits in general), who did not possess the lore of
Elves, Men or Dwarves concerning earlier events in the Third Age or
ages previously gone by.  In the description of the history of the
Hobbits, (in the prologue to the Fellowship of the Ring) it is
mentioned that they had no history of themselves prior to their
crossing of the Misty Mountains into Eriador (save a few bits &
pieces).  In addition, throughout The Hobbit, Bilbo expresses mild
apprehension towards other races (not true fear, mind you, but it is
apparent that he is not totally at ease with them).

     Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the discrepancies found
between The Hobbit and LotR is mainly due to Bilbo (and other
hobbits') lack of information concerning other races, leading to their
slight fear of them.  It just so happens the The Hobbit is written
from Bilbo's perspective, so these discrepancies show up.

greg

p.s. (i'm really going out on a limb with this one)

     Gandalf did not know at the time of the finding of the Ring that
it was indeed the One Ring, nevertheless he might have had a
foreboding, so he may have wished for the hobbits to be as much in the
dark about the goings on in Gondor as possible, thus leading to their
lack of knowledge concerning the outside world.  Had the hobbits made
more noise up in the Shire than they did, it would have been easier
for Sauron to find the Shire and acquire the Ring.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1983 09:23:00-EDT
From: cls at mit-ccc
Subject: Proudfoots

     One of the very common names among the Pennsylvania Dutch is
Stolzfuss, which is "Proudfoot" in German. Almost every magazine
article I'v ever seen about these people has contained
pictures/interviews with Stolzfusses among others; they must be a very
big family.

     I suppose that if some of them wandered away from the fold at
some point they might have translated their name into English to be
more American, and then we might have actual Proudfoots, but it
somehow doesn't seem very likely.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Aug 83 2030-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #46
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 46

Today's Topics:
          Discussion - Science Fiction vs. Fantasy (2 msgs) &
                    The Fourth Tower of Inverness
               Our Future (2 msgs) & Gene Engineering,
                   Conventions - WorldCon (2 msgs),
          Film - Krull (SPOILER, but very funny anyway!!!!!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 83 17:31:42-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!sts @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: science vs. fantasy

     The close and seemingly unlikely connection between sf and
fantasy is probably because they both are about things that don't
exist.  It is a question of whether you like reading about purely
imaginary things or about reality (I prefer the imagination; reality
is so *boring*)

                                   stan the leprechaun hacker
                                   ssc-vax!sts (soon utah-cs)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 83 7:14:15-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: science vs. fantasy - (nf)

     Well, no less an authority then Ursula K. LeGuin claims that
"S.F. is just the most recent branch of the Fantasy tree". That is
S.F. and Fantasy are very close relatives...

                        Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: 8-Aug-83 12:02:06-EDT
From: thokar@LL.ARPA
Subject: It's Back!!! (At least in Boston)

     For those of you in the Boston area, a bit of good news. WGBH has
started playing "The Fourth Tower of Inverness" at 10:30 Saturday
evenings!  The 5th episode was on Sat. August 6th.  This radio play
was done by ZBS in the early 70's and is as good or better than
anything done by Firesign Theatre.

     The 4th Tower was a topic of discussion during the inception of
this Digest over four years ago.  (My ghod, that long -- seems like
eternity.  What would I do without my morning cup of tea and SFL.)

                                                 Greg

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1983 1406-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Uc.Gds at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: what's our future

     I think you overestimate the advances of modern society.  For
example -- fiction concerning the 80's has us being serviced by
intelligent computers, visiting distant stars, traveling at speeds >>
c and visiting the future, the past and alternate universes.  When I
was a youngster in the mid 60's watching things like Lost in Space,
Land of the Giants, etc.. I couldn't wait for the 80's to roll around
so that I could get in on all the fantastic stuff we'd be doing.

     Now as a young adult actually living in the times I saw depicted
on tv, I realize that all I was seeing was really science *fiction*,
not science future.  We have not conquered the stars ... heck, we
haven't even been to Mars.  Computers do enter our lives quite a bit
via the telephone, automated tellers, etc. , but they are far from the
capabilities given them by SF.

     However, one thing does seem possible which has been depicted in
SF -- world war, nuclear holocaust, the fall of the human race, etc.
If anything is going to bring us to our doom, I think it is nuclear
weaponry and war, not automation or invasion by aliens.

p.s.  Remember Stephen King's The Stand?? That's another good
possibility for doom depicted in SF -- chemical warfare, plague, etc.
King had the date set for 1985, so keep tuned for further details.

------------------------------

Date: 8-Aug-83 12:09:07-EDT
From: thokar@LL.ARPA
Subject: Apocriphal Story

     In regard Larry's comments about the increase in automobile
complexity.  A while ago, a friend was telling me about a Mecedes his
family had bought sometime during the sixties.  It had the most
advanced, and somewhat experimental, transmission ever designed.  Ran
like a fine Swiss watch.  Built like one too.  Until it broke down.
When it was taken in to the local dealer, they attempted to fix
it...several times.  They finally contacted the main headquarters in
Germany and were told that the only one who really knew how to fix it
was the designer.  So Larry's conjecture has already happened.

    "The future is here."

------------------------------

Date: Mon 8 Aug 83 13:30:48-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Genetic engineering

a017  7-Aug-83  08:22
BC-GENES
By CHARLES AUSTIN
c.1983 N.Y. Times News Service

     STAR ISLAND, N.H. - The craggy rocks on this island 10 miles off
Portsmouth teem with natural life, from the single-celled plankton in
the tidal pools to the deep-voiced gulls shrilly warning intruders
away from their rookery. Theologians and scientists gathered in this
natural setting last week to discuss what some might consider
unnatural life: the results of genetic manipulation.

     The conference, sponsored by the Institute on Religion in an Age
of Science, dealt with a tangled web of issues, and reaching a
consensus seemed difficult.

     One problem was that while biological science can generally agree
on what constitutes life when that form of life is a starfish or
seagull, shaping a consensus on the definition of a ''human being''
draws scientists into the world of the spirit and theologians into the
realities of biochemistry.

     ''We get into trouble intellectually when we try to have an
all-encompassing definition of life,'' said Dr. Bernard Davis, a
professor of bacterial physiology at Harvard University. He was one of
several scientists who said cloning of human beings by recombining
genes was only a distant possibility and might never be realized.

     More and more theologians are beginning intensive studies of the
issues related to genetic manipulation, said the Rev. Arthur Peacocke,
a biochemist at Clare College in Cambridge, England.

     ''Genetic engineering is in its own embryonic stage,'' said Dr.
Jaroslav Krejci, a professor at the University of Lancaster, England,
another speaker.

     The conferees agreed that genetic research ought to be directed
to curing diseases rather than experimenting with new forms of human
life. Making genetic changes that will be passed on to future
generations of humans, or ''germ line intervention,'' should be
approached with ''extreme regard for potential risk to the future
person,'' said a paper presented to the 200 conferees.

     The paper said conceivable dangers in genetic research ''do not
require long-range warning or planning because they could not create a
massive or irreversible catastrophe.''

     The scientists and theologians said a recent statement signed by
American church leaders urging a curb on genetic research was
''unnecessary and misleading.'' Their paper said a panel of
scientists, ethicists and lawyers should be set up to monitor medical
research.

     Concern was voiced about research that might explore genetic
alterations in human cells that would be passed on to succeeding
generations. It is conceivable that radically different types of life
might emerge, said Dr. Tristam Engelhardt, a professor of medical
ethics at Baylor University's school of medicine in Houston. ''What is
in order now are calm and careful reflections on the likely moral,
prudential and esthetic consequences of genetic engineering,'' he
said.

     ''Genetic engineering is a unique kind of co-creation with God,''
said Dr. Jay McDaniel of Kendricks College, a United Methodist school
in Conway, Ark. Like other theologians here, he says the religious
community must consider the moral and ethical implications of genetic
engineering because the technology is advancing so rapidly.

     ''For me,'' he said, ''the question is: Does genetic engineering
promote possibilities for fullness of life among the humans
involved?''

     ''According to the Old Testament, the human personality is an
animated body, not a body plus a soul,'' said Peacocke.

     But because metaphysics cannot be dissected like genes, questions
like the one posed by Dr. Karl Peters, a professor of religion of
Rollins College, Winter Park, Fla., remain unanswered. He asked,
''Might we do things in genetic engineering that muck about in the
soul?''

     ''Human rights exist under an assumed ability to identify human
beings as such,'' said David Burwasser of Cleveland Heights, the
editor of several scientific journals. ''Any engineered life form that
makes human status more ambiguous - cuts at the root of human
rights.''

     Dr. Michael Ruse, a biologist at the University of Guelph,
Ontario, questioned whether adaptions in the basic substances of human
life would be useful. ''We are already highly adapted for the kinds of
life we live,'' he said.

     It was agreed that using genetic therapy to cure hereditary
diseases presented no immediate moral problems. Creating the bacteria
used to clean up oil spills also seemed to pose no serious moral
difficulties, but concern was expressed over commercial interests that
patent those and other results of genetic research.

     ''We are trying to sort out the broad middle area between those
things we know are beneficial, such as therapy and those things we
clearly suspect might be misused,'' said Dr. John Bowker, a British
theologian.

     Several participants said the crucial moral difficulties might
lie in the realm of social ethics. As new techniques become
commercialized, Krejci suggested, ''business considerations, which
have different internalized controls, will operate.''

     ''We can do so much,'' said Marion Steipe, a computer specialist
from Munich, ''but we need to be sure that we do what is good.''

nyt-08-07-83 1114edt

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 83 17:45:25-PDT (Sat)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!hplabsc!faunt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: fan politics

     We talked to the two representatives from Yugoslavia after
Chicon, (the day after, at our dead, dead dog party), and their
feeling at that time was that the Yugoslavian bid was defunct, and we
have not heard anything different since, however, that was because
their government was backing out, not because fans weren't interested
in going there.  Most of my friends would love the chance.

     To Chip: A lot of your messages are turning up here with no text,
or with text missing at the beginning of the message.

                        ...hplabs!faunt
                        faunt.hplabs@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 8-Aug-83 11:54:07-EDT
From: thokar@LL.ARPA
Subject: Correction about Yugoslavia

     Minor correction to Chip.  Zagreb, Yugoslavia is bidding for
1988, just in time to have another European WorldCon the year before a
certain Boston one :-) (plug).

( Heicon (Heidelberg, Germany, 1970) -- Noreascon    (Boston, 1971) )
( Seacon (Brighton, England, 1979)   -- Noreascon II (Boston, 1980) )
( Zagreb in 1988                     -- Noreascon n  in 1962 + 9n,  )
(                                                      where n = 3  )

                                                   Greg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Aug 83 14:37 CDT
From: Sanchez.DLOS@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Krull , reviewed by Joe Bob Briggs

     This is a review printed in the Dallas Times Herald.  It is a
review by Joe Bob Briggs, The Movie Critic of Rockwall, Texas.  Joe
Bob has been written about in Time Magazine and has several fan clubs
throughout the nation.  The date of the review is Friday, July 29,
1983.

     Joe Bob begins by saying: "It's about these jerkolas called The
Slayers who start out by offing about 45 guys with swords and Darth
Vader lasers, only they miss Ken Marshall, which is too bad because it
coulda saved us two hours.  Anyway, Ken decides to make like The
Beastmaster and avenge all these Slayers, but only after The Old One
comes down out of the Granite Mountains and tells him to go kill The
Beast in the Black Fortress.  The Beast is keeping Lysette Anthony in
his eyeball.  But before he can fight the beast Ken has to go get this
five-edge super-spin-action magic switchblade that's called a Glave,
or a Glade, a Blade, a Glabe, I never could tell what the heck they
were saying but that may have something to do with Toronado's" (his
automobile because he only goes to the Drive-In)" AM static.  But even
after he gets the Glabe, Ken can't just go kung fu The Beast.  First
he has to Seek the Vision of the Blind Emerald Seer.  Then he has to
make friends with a Cyclops and kill a few scumbags.  Then he has to
Seek the Emerald Temple, only on the way these Slayers rise up out of
a swamp like Darth Vader clone mutants, and while Ken is distracted,
there is this Fake Blind Emerald Seer who comes along and replaces the
real Blind Emerald Seer, but Ken figures out he's dealing with The
Changeling and so he tosses the jerk into a vat of quicksand.  But now
he doesn't have a Blind Emerald Seer anymore, so Ken asks the Cyclops
what the hey, and the Cyc says, "There is one who might help -- The
Widow of the Web."  Where the hell is she, Ken says.  In the Iron
Desert, the Cyc says.  No sweat, Ken says.  So he hikes over to the
Iron Desert and the Old Man from the Granite Mountains says, Hey, I'll
go in and talk to the old lady.  But while he's in there, trying to
escape from this Giant Spider, the Sands of Time run out for the Old
Man and he croaks, he tells'em about the Five Mares.  Get on these
Five Mares and fly over to the Black Fortress and get the heck on with
it.  They have to wait till the Cyc dies, cause it's his turn for the
Sands of Time deal, but then they go hellbent for leather till they're
all over that Fortress, dying like flies and Ken has to pull out that
Glabe, which is a kind of Frisbee with switchblades on the edges of
it, and get the Beast in the eyeball so Lysette Anthony can get out.

     "Heads roll in this one.  We're talking 77 corpses.  Half a quart
of blood.  Several varieties of beast, but the main Beast is blurry.
No motor vehicle chases.  Minimum kung fu.  Several swords through
bodies .  Most of the world gets blown up.  Excellent torture chamber.
I'm calling it three stars.  Joe Bob says check it out."

     Joe Bob is a Drive-In movie critic and wouldn't get caught dead
in any theatre.  As you can see he is into action flicks and likes to
see kung fu.  I hope that this gives you an insight into the life and
thinking of this great Movie Critic.

                                   miguel sanchez

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Aug 83 0834-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #47
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Aug 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:
                     Film - Star Trek (3 msgs) &
          The Return of the Jedi (5 msgs) (SPOILERS!!!!!) &
                    Superman III (SPOILER!!!!!) &
                        WarGames (SPOILER!!!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 83 18:07:27 EDT
From: GARFINKEL@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: TRANSPORTERS CAN'T DO THAT and "FORGETTING" INVENTIONS

     Just to liven up the discussion on transporters and what they can
and can't do (as well as the topic of "forgetting" previous possible
things), I would like to point out the following items:

     1) The transporter is used for non-standard purposes not once,
nor twice, but three times during the animated series.  In THE LORELEI
SIGNAL, it is used to reverse the aging of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.  In
THE TERRATIN INCIDENT, it is used to restore the spacing between the
molecules of the crewmembers.  In THE COUNTER-CLOCK INCIDENT, it is
used to restore the older age of the entire crew.

     2) There are several technological advances that appear only once
in the regular series that should definitely have appeared in later
episodes.  These include the higher speed warp drive installed on the
Enterprise by the Kel- vans in BY ANY OTHER NAME, the psi-inducing
substance of kironide in the episode PLATO'S STEPCHILDREN, and the
accelerating substance found in Scalosian water in WINK OF AN EYE.

     Of course, the problem in both these cases is, as someone stated
before, such things make it tougher to provide a real challenge (as
well as throwing the entire universe out of balance).

                             Hope this livens things up,
                                                         Mark

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 83 10:40:51-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!gcsherwood @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Transporter; why it can't do that

     Why does the transporter need to store any data at all?  All it
needs to do is scan and reconstruct the object/person.  If the two are
done simultaneously, no storage at all would be required.

     Even to make them young, think of the transporter as a stream
editor.  You can edit an arbitrary-size file with one even though you
don't have the storage required to read it in.

     Agreed though, it is too much magic.

        - geoff sherwood -
        - U. of Waterloo -

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 83 4:51:31-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!presby!burdvax!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ST II & SW VI

     No, actually it was first called "The Genesis Planet", then "The
Undiscovered Continent", then "The Vengeance of Khan", and finally
since "Vengeance" sounds a little like "Revenge" (as in "Revenge of
the Jedi") it was called "The Wrath of Khan".

                                   Mark Starner
                                   Penn State University
                                   {allegra,burdvax}!psuvax!starner

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 83 12:36:38-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spherical shape of the Death Star

     1) A sphere has the smallest ratio of surface area to volume,
thus it is the best shape for building a large object with the minimum
amount of material.

     2) The gravity of the Death Star could not come from its mass.
Look closely at the docking bay next time you see the movie.  It is
oriented 90 degrees off from the way it would have to be in order to
take advantage of gravity.  (There has to be some form of artificial
gravity instead.)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1983 12:38:39 EDT (Friday)
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: LIMITING FACTORS IN SW/ESB/ROTJ DISCUSSIONS

     Re discussions of background/universe/things hanging together in
the logic, facts etc of STAR WARS...I get the feeling people are
trying to deduce the existance of a coherent sub-structure which DOES
NOT EXIST.

     My sense is that the SW gang did not attempt to think about and
subsequently resolve the contradictions either implied or shown.
Unless folks are trying to come up with the
sub-structure-as-it-should-be, hand-waving away whatever in the actual
movies contradicts these exercises, I'm at a loss to know what's going
on.  Come on, people -- these movies are NOT documentaries.  They're
entertainment.  I'm grateful they made as much effort as they did.
Ditto the efforts in STAR TREK.  Resolving ambiguities at the print
level -- was there rain, and why; what happened to line of dialogue x;
and so on -- strikes me as an acceptable pastime, if one cares about
these things.  But they're not going to rewrite and reshoot just to
make it hang together.

     This is why many authors give up on series, or decide to ignore
these problems.  Marion Zimmer Bradley has unabashedly not tried to
retrofit old Darkover stories to mesh perfectly with the newer, nor
limit the new stuff with the older strictures.  Conan Doyle tried to
kill off Holmes, for god's sake.  (And the Baker Street Irregulars
have scads of discussions locating and resolving the logical problems
in the Sacred Writings.

     The comics world is also collapsing under the accumulated history
of things, and the desire to be consistent.  Some are doing better at
resolving it all than others (Marvel's four Captain America's,
splitting off main and segregated "universes", not counting Marvel-DC
joint efforts in overall continuity; the Earth-A/B/Prime/1/2/etc
issue, imaginary tales, and so on...)  Unfortunately, it is harder to
purge the cast of characters than we would like.  (The issues of
character aging, current era, and retrofitting character's previous
eras [e.g., moving Superboy up to the Sputnik era] is getting
increasingly messy.)

     Back to the movies: If we're going to pick at this level of
logic, what's to stop us from asking even more central questions, like
"What made them have so-and-so do such a dumb thing," or "what--you
call that acting".

Yours till VAL GALS OF GOR,

Daniel Dern

P.S.  If this is "sf-lovers" what happened to talking about sf?

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  5 Aug 1983 11:51-PDT
Subject: Re: ROTJ: about the last hope business

     Ben states clearly that he believes Luke is the only hope in both
movies.  In ESB, the line, spoken to Yoda, is "That boy is our only
hope", to which Yoda replies, "No, there is another".  Yoda never
tells Luke that there is another hope; he tells Luke "There is another
Skywalker".  After that death scene, when Luke is waiting outside for
the lights to die out in Yoda's hut, he tells R2D2 "I can't go on
alone", to which Ben, appearing from the mists, replies "You must. You
are our only hope".  Since Ben then goes on to explain how Luke's
sister was hidden away, he does not associate her with Yoda's "other
hope", regardless of what Yoda thought (and Yoda never comes out and
says Leia is the other hope).

     This leaves the question ambiguous.  Since Luke believes that
Leia could carry on (in the Ewok village, when she says "We can't
afford to lose you.  I can't do it", he replies, " Yes, you could")
but has never heard that Yoda believes in "another hope", he cannot
confirm that Leia is the object of Yoda's reference.  And since Yoda
insists over and over again that "Once you start down the Dark Side of
the Force, forever it will dominate your destiny", he does not seem to
believe that Vadar is redeemable.  The facts in the movie do not
support either hypothesis to the exclusion of the other.

     However, I believe that in an interview given after ESB came out,
Lucas stated that the "other" was somebody we had not seen, but whose
existence we could infer.  This could be interpreted to mean Anakin
Skywalker, whom we had hitherto never seen as Anakin, but only as
Darth Vader, and a remnant of whose lingering goodness still existed
in Vader, as Luke proved.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 83 3:23:50-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SW goof - (nf)

     Princess Leia's message to Obi Wan indicated that she was soon to
be captured so it is unlikely that he thought that she would have been
on Aldeeran when it blew. He was probably more concerned that Darth
Vader might discover who she really was and then turn her on to the
dark side. Perhaps after locating the tractor beam he instructed R2-D2
to search for any reference to her in the Imperial computers to find
out if she were still alive.

     One must wonder what would have happened if Obi Wan had found out
that she was on the Death Star. Leaving her to be killed as a rebel
spy would be preferable to having Darth finding out that she was his
daughter. The odds against him getting Luke and the Droids out of
there were great enough without having to also pull someone out of a
maximum security prison. If he tried and failed then that might tip
off Darth that she was not your average run of the mill rebel spy. Obi
Wan just may have decided to leave her to her fate.

John Eaton

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Aug 83 12:33 EDT
From: Steve Platt <Platt%UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: RotJ: final word(s) on Endor?

     At SIGGRAPH this year, there was a short film from Lucas's
special effects people entitled "Special Effects in the 'Return of the
Jedi'" (or something like that).  Basically, they covered graphically
several effects used in ST:TWoK and RotJ... somewhere along the line,
they referred to the Death Star as orbiting "around Endor's moon".

     One approach not mentioned (to my memory): is 'Endor' a person
who might *own* the real estate in question (Empire nonwithstanding)?

  -steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Aug 83 09:35 PDT
From: SKeshava.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Superman

     Recently I saw Superman III.  It was not as exciting as I had
hoped.  I felt rather insulted at the fact that Pryor became such a
genius after taking only one programming class.  I have only one year
left until I graduate, and it seems like I have been wasting my time.
I would like to know the name of the school that he attended.  Of
course, this is the movies, but be reasonable.  The writers should
either follow the comic book or make it more realistic.

     A few questions arose when I started comparing the movie with the
comic book.

     1) Except for kryptonite, Superman is invincible and invulnerable
as long as he is near a yellow sun.  Doesn't this imply that his
strength is infinite?  Now, why, in the movie, does he have so much
trouble defending against Richard Pryor's super-computer?  Once he is
out of range of the kryptonite beam, he should have used his heat
vision to destroy the circuits.  Also, he shows signs of strain when
straightening the leaning tower of Pisa.  I would expect that these
tasks would be child's play for him.

     2) (This has nothing to do with the comic book.)  What exactly
happened to Superman when he was exposed to Pryor's fake kryptonite?
And what happened to the evil Superman when he was killed?

     3) Also, when Superman was inside the plastic bubble generated by
the computer, one of the lines in the movie was "Let's see how long he
can last without air," or something to that effect.  Don't the writers
know that Superman doesn't need to breath?  If he needed air he
wouldn't be able to travel through outerspace nor any other liquid or
solid medium.  Unless, perhaps he can hold his breath indefinitely.

--- Sanjay ---

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 9-Aug-83 03:18:45-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: "Wargames"

I've never claimed that there aren't (or haven't been) other films
that have "misrepresented" reality in a manner that would confuse some
percentage of the audience.  However, if some dummies want to panic
over "Jaws", that's of little real import.  However, when a film plays
this same game (no pun intended) with a subject matter of vital
importance to all of us (nuclear war) and also with a subject matter
with which I am professionally involved (computers) then I reserve my
right to yell "foul".  Nobody is forced to agree with me.

--Lauren--

P.S.  There have been movies that fell into the "misrepresentation"
class but still served a potentially good purpose.  "Towering Inferno"
and "Earthquake", for example, though both unrealistic in many
important respects, did show some pretty clear rules for how to deal
with certain situations.  For example, in "Earthquake", it was made
obvious that you shouldn't run out of a building during a quake (you
may be hit by falling debris) and that trying to ride an elevator down
during a quake is a really bad idea.  Yes, the sort of elevator
failure shown probably couldn't happen, but the safety concept is
valid in any case.  "Wargames" didn't give us any rules or suggestions
for dealing with the "real life" situations with which it was dealing.
If anything, it promoted various illegal activities and made a hero
out of the culprit.

--LW--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Aug 83 0839-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #48
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Aug 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 48

Today's Topics:
          Discussion - Characters and Alternate Universes &
                   The Future & The SCA (3 msgs) &
                          WorldCon (2 msgs),
                  Books -  J.R.R. Tolkien (5 msgs),
                     Film - Krull (SPOILER!!!!!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1983 0756-PDT
Subject: Characters with a life of their own
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)

     Larry Seiler's message about the seemingly independent actions of
characters within his creations brought an idea to mind, and I wonder
if anyone else recognizes this as the tenet of some mystic
belief-system or even the subject of an essay or story from the SF
past.

     The idea is that someone "creating" fiction, either writing or
tale-telling or script-writing or whatever, is really mentally
perceiving the the actual actions and events and inhabitants of an
alternate universe.  There would have to be some sort of differential
time rates, of course, as it doesn't take an author a lifetime to
develop the life of a character.

     Since I have long personally been convinced that there really are
an infinity of parallel universes, wherein all possible actions are
taking, have taken, or will take place, and that there must be some
methodology of moving either matter or information between these
alternate universes, this idea fits in well with this world-view.

     This would mean that creative talent or inspiration is really
more of a telepathic sensitivity than something totally internal; I am
not sure if this viewpoint is flattering or denigrating to authors and
artists.

     Since I have this conviction, I have long found alternate-
universe SF to be my favorite sub-genre.  I wish that more authors
wrote about this, and that those that did took greater advantage of
the multiplicity of wildly divergent or closely parallel environments
the concept provides them.  And, if I am right, and we find practical
methods to move between these universes, the results would be much
more rewarding than space travel could be!  (Infinite energy, infinite
resources, infinite dumping grounds, infinite interesting
intelligences or animals, infinite room...  )

     Anyway, I have drifted off my starting point.  Does anyone
recognize this "fiction as mental perception of other realities"
concept as something printed or discussed in SFdom?  Or did I make it
up myself (or steal it from the brain of a dolphin scientist on Earth
MMMMLXXVII)?

Will Martin

(PS -- How WOULD you label alternate universes anyhow, so you could
identify them in discussions?  Numbering infinity gets tedious...  WM)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1983 1012-EDT
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: re:  how can I fix my anti-grav aircar?

     I don't see increasing technological complexity as all that much
of a problem.  Or at least, it's no more of a problem now than it has
always been.  Face it, no one really knows the detailed workings of
everything around them.  You may understand the innards of a '56 Chevy
transmission, but do you understand FM radios?  How about air
conditioners? The chemistry of polyethylene?  The four-color printing
on the cover of your SF paperback?  And how do they get all those
little metal bits on a zipper to line up so well?

     No one understands everything, and no one needs to.  All you need
to know is the user interface.  Radios turn on when you twist this
knob.  Zippers close if you pull on this tag.  Some interfaces, like
those on personal computers, are in such an embryonic state that they
do require some knowledge of the machine's innards to use it properly.
But soon only specialists (like us) will care what goes on inside.
Look at the computer interface described in Pohl's "Beyond the Blue
Event Horizon". The protagonist never touches a keyboard.  Instead, he
converses with holograms who act as counsellors.  His science advisor,
for instance, is a hologram of Einstein.

     The biological world has already mastered this.  You don't need
to know about DNA to get a tomato to grow.  All that's necessary is a
few basics and perhaps a couple of simple trouble-shooting procedures,
like if the leaves start to curl up and turn brown, give the plant
more water.  If some obscure problem comes up, like your tomatoes are
turning blue and trying to strangle passers-by, then call in a
specialist.  A system meant for common use should rarely need uncommon
knowledge.

John Redford
DEC-Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun 7 Aug 83 16:08:03-CDT
From: Trey Garlough <CC.GARLOUGH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: Children in the SCA

[ The following is a mail message from kjm@utexas-11 in response to
  my question regarding the participation of children in the SCA  ]


     The following restrictions on minors in the SCA come to mind:

     1) Minors may not be officers.
     2) Minors may not engage in SCA combat without their parent's
        approval.

(This is not necessarily an exhaustive list.)

                KJM
                Conor Diarmuid mac Ruis na Connacht

------------------------------

Date: Mon 8 Aug 83 02:00:51-EDT
From: Dragon <Cellio@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: SCA and children

     The only thing children aren't allowed to do in the SCA (or at
least in the East Kingdom) is to fight.  If you want to fight, you
have to be at least 18, or be at least 16 and have a waiver signed by
your parents.  However, there are lots of non-fighters in the SCA;
people are involved with crafts, music, dancing, cooking, and lots of
other things.  Last year there were over 3000 people at the war, and
only about 800 or 900 of them were fighters.  There were plenty of
other things to interest people.  (I'm a fighter, so I'm not sure of
what all these things were...)

     There is also nothing to stop a child from having a persona that
is completely different from those of his parents.

                                                -D

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 83 14:29:02 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: SCA

     There are no classes and no set roles for people in the SCA; you
pick a time period and dress up like people did then. I've met
watchmakers and stargazers and minstrels and fools and fops and even a
couple of wenches; some Celts, Germans, Huns, Frenchmen, Slovaks, and
others with "outrageous accents".  Two of the Celts were fighters, and
there is no telling from looking at the costume or finding out someone
"profession" whether they are a fighter or not. (Unless they are in
armor or proclaim themself a mercenary. {then again, I met a
"mercenary" who is not qualified as a fighter.}) No one is required to
be anything. There is an office of Herald which each subgroup (read
kingdom, barony, shire, etc) must have; it is a difficult and
thankless job, though some have called it rewarding. I've never heard
anyone called a Page; I believe pages in Medeival times got some
training at a king's court. In the East, our "kings" only "reign" for
6 months, so that would be sort of difficult.

                                     ttfn
                                      Megan of Settmour Swamp
                                      Anne Marie Quint
                                      quint@ru-green.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 9 August 1983 01:40 EDT
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Yugoslavia in '88

     Is it certain the Yugoslavs know what they're getting into?  Some
fen don't get along well with authorities in THIS country!  Can you
imagine the (usual) excesses of a worldcon transplanted into a
straight-laced eastern block nation?

     Just imagine the people who will play "bait the secret police"
late at night.  Will they be baited?

-- Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1983 15:40:12 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.)
Subject: Worldcon Comments

     You're probably right about the '36 trip, though in general I'd
trust Warner over Moskowitz for faanish history.

     Is Philly dull?  Or, is it just PhilCon?  It's unfair to judge
either on the basis of the other.  But I'd agree with your (implicit)
point that, if the PSFS puts on a convention that doesn't interest
you, then the city may be a dull place for fans.

     You comment on the number of US fans who went to SeaCon, but
ignore several key factors: 1) The very number of convention-attending
fans in the US made package tours to SeaCon possible; do you really
think that this would be equally possible for the fans of Britain or
France, for instance?  2) The relative income levels of fans here and
abroad, esp. when you also take into account thedollar-to-foreign-
currency conversions.  3) How many Americans went to HeiCon -- the
single example of a WorldCon that was held in a non-English-speaking
country?

     Another factor contributing to some extent to what you term
parochialism is the changes in airline rates.  The discounts we see
here, especially on trips to Europe, are not always equally available
on the other side.

     As you say, there has "been damned little bidding for the
Worldcon from nEsl's", but you're not dealing with the whys and
wherefores of this fact.  Is the nature of Esl fandom sufficiently
different from that in nEsl countries to make the two incompatible?
Is the overall size of Esl fandom (or even just US [+Canadian?] fandom
so great that nEsl sites feel that they have no chance to win a bid?
I dunno, but I suspect that there are a lot of factors that are
affecting this matter.

--Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 83 11:21:17 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Proudfoots

     I used to work with a Charles Proudfoot AND a Loretta Bolger,
both hobbit surnames.  No Bracegirdles, though.

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 83 17:14:51-EDT (Tue)
From: J.C. Patilla <jcp%jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Proudfoots and Other Silly Names

     There are no Proudfoots on the Eastern Shore (my native swamp,
now a fond memory) but there are Toadvines, which I have long thought
worthy of a fantasy novel (and someday I might even write it). They
fit right in with the towns named Red Lion, Pepperbox, Girdletree and
Magnolia.

j.c. patilla

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1983 1625-PDT
Subject: Tolkien's Names/Languages
From: John Platt <PLATT@CIT-20>

     As far as I heard, "An Introduction to Elvish" is a hard book to
get, being only published in the UK. Once, someone in my Tolkien
discussion group went on vacation to England, and brought back a copy.
It brought a round of applause.

     For a possibly more available book on Elvish (and other things),
you make want to try the book, "Languages of Middle-Earth" by a friend
of mine, Atanielle Noel (she wrote the book under the name Ruth S.
Noel).  It not only tells you how to write and speak in Elvish (what
little of it is known), but also tells you the philological sources
for many names in Tolkien's sub-creation.

     Another book by Noel is "Mythology of Middle-Earth", which
explores the mythological background that Tolkien drew upon.  Between
the former and latter books, I'm sure you could find out the source of
the names we have been discussing. For example, I recall that the
dwarven names (Ori, Nain, etc.) come from Old Norse (possibly from the
"Prose Edda" or "Elder Edda" by Snorri Snurrison, although my memory
is hazy about such things.)

     Another good book on Tolkien's inspirations is "Englnd and
Always" by Jared Lobdell (a professor at CMU). A book you may want to
avoid is "The Individuated Hobbit" by O'Neill, which is full of the
most illogical Jungian analysis of literature I have ever seen.

                                        John Platt
                                        PLATT@CIT-20

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  9 Aug 1983 20:51-PDT
Subject: Proudfood
From: greep@SU-DSN

    There are 3 listings for "Proudfoot" in the Palo Alto phone book,
so there must be at least 3 people who think it's a legitimate name.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 83 19:58-EST (Tue)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: LOTR and Proudfeet

     I once heard an interview with one of JRRT's students from
oxford. On it he said that he had found that most of the Hobbit family
names (Proudfeet, Hornblowers, Baggins, Gamgee, etc.) were inspired by
Kentucky names that JRRT came across in a trip to that area.

                                           - steve gutfreund

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1983 2021-PDT
From: FORWARD@USC-ECL
Subject: KRULL COMMENT

     Took my 11 year old daughter to see Krull.  OK, but even she
could find fault with it.

     Very slow, especially when it came to the special effects, which
were l-i-n-g-e-r-e-d over, probably because they were more expensive
to film than scenes of tramping through the woods searching for the
next "seer".  Daughter says it looked to her that they were trying to
make a D&D game out of it.  (I wonder -- could they be thinking of
that???)  [Of course, a good game makes a lot of money.]

     I was wondering if anyone else saw what I thought I saw.  At the
very end when the baddy's castle is blowing up and levitating out into
space, the very last pinnacle seemed to "stick", then was "pushed"
loose with a "pole" coming up out of the ground that sank back in as
the special effects person pulled it back.

      Bob Forward

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Aug 83 0848-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #49
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Aug 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 49

Today's Topics:
                Books - F.M.Busby & Alexis Gilliand &
                    Robert A. Heinlein (3 msgs) &
           P.C. Hodgell & L. Ron Hubbard & Poul Anderson &
                 David A. Kyle and E.E. "Doc" Smith &
                              Tom Reamy,
             Mixed Messages - Star Trek and Larry Niven &
    Robert A. Heinlein and Stephen R. Donaldson and J.R.R. Tolkien

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 8 Aug 83 19:26:32-EDT
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: F.M.Busby

     Does anyone know F.M.Busby's full (or real) name? Particularly
whether (s)he is a he or she (she or he if you prefer...)?

                                Jacob Butcher

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1983  8:34:34 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Alexis Gilliland

     No, Alexis Gilliland is not a Texas chicano.  He's a Washington,
D.C.  bureaucrat, and also one of the best fan cartoonists around.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 83 15:05:44-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!israel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Characters with a life of their own

   From:  WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)

   .  .  .                                        Does anyone
   recognize this "fiction as mental perception of other realities"
   concept as something printed or discussed in SFdom?  Or did I
   make it up myself (or steal it from the brain of a dolphin
   scientist on Earth MMMMLXXVII)?

     This is a major point in Heinlein's "Number of the Beast".  In
NotB, someone discovers that there are six dimensions to the universe,
and that there are 6**(6**6) accessible universes (hence the name;
according to the bible 666 is the number of the beast).  An
inter-dimensional traveler is built, and our four intrepid heros sail
off into the cosmos in their ship to screw around and argue among
themselves.

     The majority of the book is actually the four characters arguing
among themselves (You see, they alternate as captain of the ship, and
the three who aren't captain don't take the discipline easily and end
up giving the captain alot of guff, and ... anyway, you get the idea).
It is an extremely long-winded book and it is written for SF fans
only.  There are a lot of references to other works and meeting other
fictional characters (i.e. Barsoom, Lazarus Long, Lensmen, Jubal
Harshaw, Alice in Wonderland, OZ etc.).  There are also some inside SF
jokes (one of my favorites was a character saying something like
"'Stranger in a Strange Land'? Ugh.  What some writers will do for
money!"  Which I thought was cute in a book written by Heinlein).

     Anyway, it's got too much discussion, not enough action, the plot
is muddy and elements are left unresolved and shrugged off, and it
ends with the wierdest conglomerations of characters from Heinlein's
books and other books all going to a pan-universe convention on
solipsism.

     I recommend it only if you enjoy seeing characters that you've
met in other books.  I enjoyed it for that reason.  --

~~~ Bruce
...!seismo!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel.umcp-cs@Udel-Relay (Arpanet)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1983 10:56:33-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Guests at NUMBER OF THE BEAST party

     There are quite a few "real" people there, although some are
permitted aliases (Poul Anderson, for some reason, is Holger Danske
rather than Bela of Eastmarch (his SCA identity--cf the dedication to
Dickson's THE DRAGON AND THE GEORGE). Pournelle is the announcer (I
guess RAH decided to rule out Robert Adams, a Florida resident who
also plagues the west coast and would steal a mike even from
Pournelle). There's also another dose of the game-playing that
appears, annoyingly, throughout the book: "Doctor Isaac" who fears
flying is not Asimov, and Arthur is not Clarke.

     A friend of mine claims the discussion on makeup (early in the
book) comes directly from a talk she and her co-consort (to a BNF) had
with RAH at Midamericon (1976 Worldcon); this is possible, given his
remarks in GLORY ROAD ("...writers will take anything, file off the
serial numbers, and call it their own).

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1983 13:14:44-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: flaws in STARSHIP TROOPERS

     A flamer who was known during his MIT days as the official Burton
4 Commie once declared in a now-defunct apa that Heinlein, in the
person of the History and Moral Philosophy professor at the officer
candidate school, set up and demolished a straw man alleged to be
Marx's labor theory of value, just before presenting said theory (this
time stated correctly) as gospel.

     ST is RAH's Skinner novel, with a particularly Missourian
brutality tacked on---he assumes that humans must be shaped into the
right behavior. (The title of the course is revealing, since "morals"
are conduct imposed on the individual by society as the price of
membership, while "ethics" are ideals put on society). The worst thing
about this world is that there is no hope (outside of the massive
changes that bring an end to THE FOREVER WAR) of reforming it; it's a
most stable tyranny.
     This is brushed over in a line about culling out the aggressive
ones and making them sheepdogs so the sheep won't give you trouble.
What's happening is a little more complicated: you have to have
immense self discipline to survive entry into the pool of \potential/
voters (so external revolutionaries are unlikely to be even the
vaguely competent types seen in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS) and to
get any authority you have to pass a second vetting of your views (the
H&MP course at OCS, which must be passed for the candidate to remain
in the military at all, is bluntly described as having this purpose
--- and no bunch of retired soldiers will elect a ranker over an
officer!). It's sealed by giving the vote only to \retired/ soldiers,
preventing any tinge of reality from entering the political process.
(Those who've read Mark Clifton's novels may recall frequent remarks
that wars are the old sending their young rivals out to die.)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1983 10:56:43-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: P.C. Hodgell

     Jame also shows up in a spoooky, very well-done story in one of
the Berkeley Showcase volumes (I think #2, edited by Silbersack and
Schochet)--presumably a sequel to GOD STALK since she is on a
post-holocaust Earth.

     In the preface to the hardback edition, Hodgell notes that she
was trying to write a period (Victorian?) novel, which means that GOD
STALK may be hard to take for some people.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 83 20:30:10-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth

     There was an article in the Toronto Globe and Mail recently,
concerning the volume of sales of this book.

     (L Ron Hubbard is the founder of Scientology and Dianetics) In
several interviews people in the book distribution industry
(anonymously) claimed that they believed that there was a campaign
among Scientologists to buy sufficient copies to put the book on the
bestseller list, in an attempt to boost his credibility.

     Cordially, Geo Swan, Integrated Studies, University of Waterloo
     (allegra||ihnp4)!watmath!watarts!geo

------------------------------

Date: Wed 10 Aug 83 01:40:58-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Anderson = "Danske"?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Poul Anderson -- "Holger Danske" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     Isn't "Holger Danske" the protagonist of an Anderson book?  The
very vague remnants of plot I seem to associate with the name
resembles that sketched for his THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS in
Nicholls' SF ENCYCLOPEDIA.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 83 22:16:55 EDT
From: SOMMERS@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: David Kyle and "Doc" Smith

                    David Kyle's Lensmen books....

     I think I have now read just about everything Doc Smith ever
wrote, (even "The Galaxy Primes").  I love (rather impartially) all of
his work ( even though I disagree with most of his social ideas).  In
my search for more of the great doctor I have also read at least 3/4
of the Family series, and the first 2 David Kyle books.  I will read
no more of either, they put me to sleep and I frankly thought they
stank.  And I will read anything.

     I must disagree with whoever it was who said that Doc Smith's
writing would have matured in something of this fashion would seem to
be dead wrong.  His later writing was much more Skylark-like, with a
heavy emphasis on psychic powers and union busting.  There was some
planet crashing in the last Skylark story, but little in "The Galaxy
Primes", "Subspace Encounters" and the other Subspace story (the title
escapes me just now).  The emphasis was now on finding truth through
the mind.

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 83 22:16:55 EDT
From: SOMMERS@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Tom Reamy

              San Diego Lightfoot Sue and other Stories
                              Tom Reamy

     If you have not read this book READ IT!!!!!!

     This book reminds me of what Harlan would like to be able to do.
It is citified Lovecraft with an edge.  It is not the horror, I am not
real sure what it is.  It is some of the strongest writing I have read
in years.  Stylistic, gorgeous, literate, scary, GOOD.

     I do not want to spoil anything, so I will not review the
stories.  Skip "Insects in Amber" and go to it.  There is a story
about a Gulch (title escapes me) that is pure great.

     BTW.

     Tom Reamy is dead, you better not get hooked on his writing.  I
understand another book has been published, a novel "Blind Visions".
I have not been able to find it yet.

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 83 13:31:50-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Transporter; why it can"t do that

     The episode "Day of the Dove" violated more than one of the
established facts about Star Trek -- in addition to the transporter
thing, it had female Klingon officers.  It was establisheds previously
that Klingons were extreme sexists who saw female Klingons as
property.  Either this was some sort of half-baked feminism (even the
bad guys can't be sexists anymore), or the writer got Klingons
confused with Romulans.  This episode was from the third season,
meaning no Gene Roddenberry and no Dorothy Fonatana, so like all the
other third season episodes it stank.

     About Larry Niven: The abundance of handy gizmos did contribute
to his decision to stop writing stories set in Known Space, but a
larger reason is that it is impossible to write any interesting story
past a certain time in that system.  The luck gene encouraged by the
birthright lotteries takes all the fun out of it, as evidenced by the
story "Safe at Any Speed".  People are too lucky to have any
challenges.  Of course, who knows what happens when the core explosion
reaches Known Space, full of these incredibly lucky humans?

     Chaosium Games on the west coast is coming out with a "Ringworld"
role-playing game later this year.  Like most of Chaosium's role-
playing games, it will be based on the versatile "Basic Role-Playing"
system.  Chaosium products are always of very high quality; I am
waiting eagerly for the game.
______________________________________
The overworked keyboard of Tim Maroney

duke!unc!tim (USENET)
tim.unc@udel-relay (ARPA)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: 3 AUG 1983 0715 EDT
From: BUTLER at MIT-DMS
Subject: Heinlein and Donaldson and Tolkien

     Come on, folks, if you don't like Heinlein, good for you! Who
cares?  I'd much rather here from someone who does like Heinlein,
explaining what they liked or disliked about a given novel by RAH. I
get tired of "I don't like Heinlein's work at all, and this is why."
Much more interesting are messages that say "I liked xxxxx by RAH, but
I felt that yyyyy was wrong/not handled well/bullshit, and here's
why."

     If you don't like Stephen R. Donaldson's Covenant trilogies,
that's fine. Must I read your spleen-venting in every issue of
SF-Lovers Digest? Yes, Mr. Donaldson is incredibly verbose at times;
yes, he stole or borrowed or otherwise included concepts which other
authors developed or wrote about first, and yes, the Covenant
trilogies are somewhat less than immortal works of art that will stand
unmarred forever. On the other hand, verbosity is not a capital crime,
yet.  If it were, many authors would be sent to the gas chambers.  As
for the charge of (gasp!) plagiarism, so what if the Ravers are
Balrogs on bicycles? Why does it matter that Donaldson has used some
of the same old songs, with a few new lines? No one grows up in a
cultural vacuum. It satisfies me that enough of the story is original
that it doesn't read like Donaldson changed the names and submitted
"Leper of the Ring" to be published. Also, why are we complaining
about the source of Donaldson's words? I don't have a list of the Nine
Billion Names of Ghod, and I wager Donaldson doesn't either.  If he
can't come up with words that suit you, too bad. I will admit, though,
that "ussusimiel" and "rhyshishym" are both words that give me hives.
If you don't like what the man has written at all, don't give copies
of his books to friends at Christmas. DON'T send flame after flame on
the same damned note. Let someone who liked the TC books explain why,
if you can get anyone to admit to liking the books. I'm too busy
flaming about your flaming to consider it.

     Finally, JRR Tolkien is not a saint, contrary to popular belief.
He was a scholar who wrote a piece of fiction which is very boring at
times, very exciting at other times, and which owes at least a small
part of its notoriety to the fact that it was written before most
other fantasies with which the public is familiar. Frankly, John Myers
Myers wrote a faster moving, more exciting fantasy in 'Silverlock',
which is also very scholarly in its roots. I hope that one day I will
understand all of the jokes based on literature of which I am, sadly
enough, still ignorant.

     There. I just had to get that out of my system. Tomorrow, I'll
deny having been within ten miles of this terminal.

-----rlb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 83 0827-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #50
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 12 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 50

Today's Topics:
                     Film - Star Trek (6 msgs) &
           The Return of the Jedi (5 msgs) (SPOILER!!!!!) &
              Twilight Zone:  The Movie (SPOILER!!!!!) &
                         Krull (SPOILER!!!!!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1983 13:26-EDT
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@NRL-AIC>
Subject: Re: The Transporter; why it can't do that

     Gary Samuelson, in V8 #44, brings up a ST episode (which I
haven't seen) called ``The Day of the Dove''.  In this some Klingons
had their transporter trip put in a holding pattern.  Scotty claimed
that they were in the transporter during the delay.  Gary concludes
that ``if information ... can be stored, it can be copied.''

     In the case of Star Trek, I am not sure that objects en route via
the transporter are information.  Perhaps they are some third state of
matter/energy, or some sort of astral essence.  I have enough
disregard for ST's internal consistency to consider the question
worthless.

     But Star Dreck aside, I am very uncomfortable with Gary's last
statement.  Known ways of transmitting information, including
transmission into and out of a storage medium, do involve copying.
But I can't think of any reason why the ability to transmit and store
information implies the ability to copy it.  Any takers?

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Aug 83 17:38:37 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-bmd>
Subject: Vengeance of Kahn

     The Marx Brothers had a similar problem with their last movie "A
Night In Casablanca".  Jack Warner, who had just released the Humphrey
Bogart "Casablanca," was trying to stop the film from being released
with the name "Casablanca" in the title.

     Groucho replied with a legal style letter that went something
like this (sorry, I am quoting from memory)...

Dear Mr. Warner,

     Atilla the Hun was wrong.  Their is more than one way to capture
a city and hold it hostage.  Now, you came out with a movie called
"Casablanca" and you don't think that anyone else should be allowed to
use "Casablanca" in a movie title again.  In that case, what about
"Warner Brothers."  You may own the name Warner, but what about
"brothers."  Professionally, me and my brothers have been brothers
much longer than you have.  I forbid you to use the word "Brothers"
ever again.

Sincerely

Dr. Hugo P. Hackenbush

     The story goes that that was the last complaint Groucho heard
about the subject from Warner.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 8:47:47-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!mhuxa!R.Gordon @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ST II & SW VI

In reference to

                No, actually it was first called "The
                Genesis Planet", then "The Undiscovered
                Continent", then "The Vengeance of
                Khan", and finally since "Vengeance"
                sounds a little like "Revenge" (as in
                "Revenge of the Jedi") it was called
                "The Wrath of Khan".
                                - Mark Starner

     Hate to sink your ship, but I believe that the last SW movie was
called "Return of the Jedi", was it not?

                                           R. Gordon
                                           BTL

------------------------------

Date: 11 August 1983 07:55 edt
From: Gubbins.5581i2160@radc-multics
Subject: Energize...

     Mr. Spock, will you please explain the principles of the
Transporter to SF-Lovers.  Like really, how does it work?

     Spock said quietly, "It is a multi-stage process.  First, your
body is entirely mapped - that's what produces the sparkle effect -
then the component molecules are disassembled and converted into
photonic waves -"

     Photonic waves???

     Spock said drily, "Photonic waves: the interference pattern in a
coherent transporter beam - which is a much more precise and
controlled development of the same principle that produces a phaser
beam - phased light, but of a very high frequency.  In fact, the
frequency approaches the theoretical limits of the vibratory ability
of matter in this particular configuration of space-time.  The beam
has the ability to penetrate some kinds of materials.  If the target
is well-shielded, however, or moving too rapidly, focusing becomes
problematic.  Anything less than 99.9999% accuracy is usually -," he
hesitated for only the briefest of instants, "- less than desirable.
At the point at which the interference patterns coalesce, the
transported object rematerializes."

     Eh???

     Spock explained further.  "It's really quite simple.  The locus
of coalescence is controlled by the separate frequencies of the
individual beams that make up the mega-beam of the transporter.  This
is usually handled entirely by the transmitting station...  The
information being sent on the beam exists not within the beam itself
but in the harmonics of the various interference patterns that the
separate beams produce.  Although there are three-dimensional
harmonics produced throughout the length of the beam, they are chaotic
orders, out of tune with each other.  At the point at which all the
harmonics come into phase again - that is, the point of focus - all of
the separate frequencies are once more tuned exactly as they were at
the point of transportation, and the photonic waves collapse back into
their material equivalents - forming an exact replica of the pattern
that they held at the moment of disassembly.  I hope that makes it all
clear to you."

     Can we take a taxi instead?

     Lt. Kevin Riley adds, "It's safer than the taxi.  If for any
reason there's a problem, the polarity of the monitron beam can be
reversed and instead of transporting to a target, the beam brings you
back."

[So now we know.  This should provide enough flaming fuel for a while
as to pattern reconstruction and memory management.  Quoted material
from >The Galactic Whirlpool< by David Gerrold of Tribbles fame, page
141.]

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 83 9:36:22-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!edward @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ST II & SW VI

     Everyone knows that the original title was to be Revenge of the
Jedi.  In fact there were posters and t-shirts with that title
distributed and have now become collector's items.  Lucas decided to
change the title to Return ...  because he thought that since Jedi are
good they shouldn't seek revenge.  However he made that decision after
he forced the Trek people to change their title From Revenge of Khan
to Wrath of Khan.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Aug 83 12:59 PDT
From: SBull.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Transporters

     Many people seem to believe that the transporter device stores a
digital image of the object being transported.  Is that necessarily
the case?  It would seem more probable that the transporter warps
space, in much the same way that the warp engines do.  This would
occur on a smaller scale, of course.

     The warp engines are not used to move the ship faster than light.
What they do is warp space, so that the distance the ship has to
travel is less than that needed to travel in a straight line.  The
impulse engines do the actual moving, and the higher warp factor means
that space is more warped (curved, if you like).  In essence, they
bring the starting point and destination closer together.

     For the transporter to function, it need only warp the space
between the transporter and the transportee, and then pull the
transportee through the warped space.  Nothing need be stored except
the data regarding the warp, and the relative location of the
transportee.  As far as holding a person in transit, that could be
accomplished by placing the transportee in the warp, and simply not
pulling him/her/it out until needed.  If necessary, a stasis field
could be placed around the transportee, or the warp could be the
stasis in itself.

     This method is much simpler than actually disassembling and then
reassembling the transportee, requires less calculation, and greatly
reduces the chance of error.  With all that taking apart and piecing
together, it would be very easy to accidentally switch a few atoms
here and there.  Working with the whole entity, rather than each
atomic part, would be the safer way to go.

                                               Steve

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 83 21:33:55-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!lwall @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: the 2nd to last hope

     And why does Luke have to have accomplished something in order to
qualify as a "hope"?  To quote the good Book: "Hope that is seen is
not hope."  The same applies to the 1st to last hope, which I think is
certainly Leia.  The hopehood of Leia points out the relationship of
Luke and Leia, which I deem to be much more important to the plot than
deciding which of Luke or Leia gets more of the action.

     And since when does the salvation of DV count for nothing?
Remember that in the SW universe there is an afterlife, however
holographic it may be.  There are many in the crowd who would dispute
the notion that the sum of a man's life is limited to this plane in
our universe.  How much less can we guess about the nature of
salvation in a universe for which we have much less evidence?

                                 Yours contortedly,

                                 Larry Wall
                                 lwall@sdcrdcf.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 11:06:31 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Mackey.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Spherical shape of the Death Star

     "1) A sphere has the smallest ratio of surface area to volume,
thus it is the best shape for building a large object with the minimum
amount of material."

     But if they wanted to use the least material for the greatest
effect (a large object), they should have made a huge 1 layer
monolith. Of course they would have to orient it so it faced the
planet or enemy ships they wished to impress. It would be embarrassing
to have someone see it edge-on, but it might have the advantage of
seeming to disappear.

~Kevin

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 83 22:59:27-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: ROTJ: about the last hope business

     In many interviews, Lucasfilms stated that the question "Who is
the other" would be answered clearly in ROTJ.  So why all the hoopla.
It was Leia.

     There is nothing that says OB1 knew she was Luke's sister, that
could have been a secret from him, should his thoughts betray him.
After all, nobody says OB1 was really that great with the force.  He
didn't train Vader properly, and probably could not have beat him in
the fight.

--
      Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 14:59:37-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SW VI

RE: Jedi Title

     If I remember correctly, the title of the latest Star Wars movie
alternated between "Return of the Jedi" and "Revenge of the Jedi"
several times before the decision to opt for the former was made
(probably after ST II was titled).

                                          S. J. Berry
                                          BTL  Holmdel

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 83 12:30:08-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!we13!burl!clyde!crc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: nitpiking goof in RotJ

     What is a "red shirt"?

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 83 11:24:01-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!cires!nbires!ut-ngp!ables @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Twilight Zone

     For those of you who receive WGN-TV out of Chicago and haven't
hears already, they're going to run "Journey into the Twilight Zone"
this Thursday (11 Aug) at 7pm.  The show is hosted by Carol[e?]
Serling and will have the three original episodes that the movie is
based on (Kick the Can, It's a Good Life, and Nightmare at 20,000
Feet) as well as some behind-the-scenes info about the making of the
movie.

-king

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 13:30:31 EDT
From: SHERMAN@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Krull and D&D

     In response to a couple of comments regarding 'Krull' and its
'Dungeon and Dragons' storyline, I think this has the same validity as
stating that TESB draws heavily from 'Traveller.' D&D is a game which
draws its roots from a few hundred stories and a few movies. Its
characters really don't come off as original, nor do many of the
scenarios. Hence I believe that D&D references simply obscure the real
roots of 'Krull.'

                                      *Steve*

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 83 0832-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #51
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 12 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 51

Today's Topics:
     Conventions - WorldCon Schedule & SF-Lovers Party (4 msgs) &
                      List of Cons & WorldCons,
           Discussion - SCA & Alternate Universes (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Aug 83  11:50 EDT
From: YBMCU@CUNYVM
Subject: Worldcon Schedule

     In response to the question in V8 #40, the following is a partial
indication of the Worldcon schedule.  It is not either complete (or
final), but will give some idea of what the program will be like.

     The main programming tracks are Science Fiction & Fantasy,
Science, Space, Fan, Art, Academic, Kids, Readings, Discussion Groups,
and Special (which is things that need some sort of special handling
or are being handled by other than the regular methods).  There is
also extensive "reality track" (real world) and "night owl"
programming.  Most of the main programming tracks will have at least
one event at most times during the day (1000-1800).  There will also
be a film program, video and radio programs, filksinging at night, and
lots more stuff.  Most of the events will be in the Convention Center
(along with the Huckster's Room and Art Show), but there will be a lot
of stuff taking place in the Hyatt and also the Hilton.  In addition,
there are also extensive city tours.

The major items scheduled include the following:

Opening Ceremonies - Th @ 1300, followed by keynote speech
Meet the Fans Party - Th @ 1700
Meet the Pros Party - Th @ 2000

Pro Guest of Honor Speech - F @ 1600, preceded by GoH slide show
2001: A Space Opera (a fannish play) - F @ 2000

Fan GoH Speech - Sa @ 1500
Masquerade - Sa @ 2000
Meet the Pros boat trips - several times on Sa

Featured Address on Space - Su @ 1430
International Awards Ceremony - Su @ 1600
Crab Feast - Su @ 1700
Hugo Ceremony - Su @ 2000

Closing Ceremonies - Mon @ 1600

     The winner of the 1985 site selection will be announced on
Sunday.  Assuming the uncontested Australia bid wins, then the winner
of the NASFiC should be announced Monday.

     This list is *very* abbreviated, since the current master list
runs well over 10 pages, and is not yet final, but this will, I hope,
give some idea of what the ConStellation program will be like.

Ben Yalow
YBMCU @ CUNYVM                  (BITNET)
G.CUNYVM=YBMCU @ BERKELEY       (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Aug 83 11:25:58-EDT
From: Bob Krovetz <KROVETZ@NLM-MCS.ARPA>
Subject: Worldcon party

     I would like to participate.

Bob Krovetz
Krovetz@NLM-MCS

Thanks,
bob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Aug 83 18:56:11 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-bmd>
Subject: Re:  WorldCon SF-Lovers Party???

     Mike Muuss and I, being the fine Balmerians that we are, will be
glad to provide whatever assistance we can in setting up an SF-LOVERS
(@'s and !'s) party.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1983 2048-EDT
From: TYG%MIT-OZ%MIT-MC@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-L Worldcon Party

     Since I plan to be sleeping in the Gopher Hole, I sure can't
donate space, but I'd like to attend. I'd suggest that it be mentioned
that people should wear their SF-L t-shirts if they have them, or
their @-sign buttons (These can be made up special from hucksters at
con if need be). Also, the tentative date for the party should be
mentioned in a regular digest.

tom galloway

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Aug 83 12:35 EDT
From: Steve Platt <Platt%UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Party @ Worldcon?

     Is anyone interested/can be convinced/arm-twisted into hosting a
party at ConStellation this year, for @-people?  Remember, it cannot
be in the Hyatt (where I am, alas, staying), but can be in one of the
designated "party hotels".

  -steve

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1983 0013-PDT
From: Zellich@OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons list updated

SF Cons listing updated

     OFFICE-3 file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready
for FTP.  OFFICE-3 supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within
FTP, using any password.

     For those not familiar with this file, it is an extensive list of
SF-related conventions worldwide, with a geographic cross-reference;
the list currently contains 80 cons in 9 countries (including
Yugoslavia and the USSR!), with 28 US states represented, and covers
dates from 12 Aug 83 to 3 Sep 84.

     CONS.TXT is currently 819 lines (or 37,631 characters).  Please
try to limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if
possible, as the system is heavily loaded during the day.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1983 2018-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Worldcons

     Why would I not vote for a Worldcon in a foreign country?  Very
simply, because I couldn't afford to go.  Actually, that's a moot
point now, because even domestic Worldcons are becoming financially
out of reach for impoverished students like me.

     There seems to be, unfortunately, a great deal of snobbish
elitism among faaans.  I don't like media fen either, but not all neos
or young people are obnoxious.  I got very annoyed when I heard some
people campaigning for the Australia bid on the grounds that (I'm
paraphrasing) "It will be a more fannish con, because only *REAL FEN*
will go."  Well, not all *REAL FEN* are wealthy.  My first con ever
was Noreascon II, which I managed to get to while a high school
student.  I couldn't have done the same thing with Constellation.  I
can't even afford it this year.

     If you really want a fannish con, the best way to do it would be
to have it in some out-of-the-way place--not terribly far, but not
that easy to get to.  (Like they did with BoskLone.)  Those who really
cared would get there somehow.  (Either that, or scheme with some
major comix or media con to hold their big bash the same weekend, in
another city.)

                                Janice Eisen

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1983 10:19:41 PDT
From: <lars@ACC>
Subject: Society for Creative Anachronism

     Would somebody care to write a tutorial introduction to the SCA ?
This sounds like opening a whole new world; I never knew there was a
real SOCIETY (I thought it was just a MOVEMENT).  I would like to know
things like:

        . membership count
        . formal structure
        . is there a managed namespace and who manages it
        . what do they do with this anachonistic universe

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 15:28:49 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: writers and alternate universes

     Regarding Will Martin's query about writers actually just tuning
in to alternate universes:

     I would hope that any SF-Lover includes comic books among his/her
cultural heritage.  If so, others may recall that a gent named Gardner
Fox (who also wrote some fantasies, for you paperback purists) put
forth that same theory in the early '60s, in FLASH #123 "Flash of Two
Worlds", thus creating Earth-1, Earth-2, and a generation of
continuity fiends like myself.

     In this classic story, the Flash of the comics we *real* kids
were reading (I use "real" loosely, because this alternate universe
business starts to look like a rough draft of "All You Zombies" after
a while) meets the Flash of the comics *he* used to read during his
childhood in the '40s (these, of course, are the same comics your dads
and occasional moms used to read).  "Our" Flash (Barry Allen) comes up
with the following theory: there are at least 2 "Earths" existing in
the same corner of space but in different "vibrational planes."  The
other Flash (Jay Garrick) had all the adventures that Barry had read
about as a child.  However, living on Barry's earth (Earth-1) during
the '40s was a young comics writer named Gardner Fox.  Somehow, Fox's
mind, while he slept, "tuned in" to the vibrational rate of
Jay-Flash's world (Earth-2), causing Fox to learn about Jay's
adventures.  Believing them to be dreams, Fox wrote them up for Flash
Comics, where they were read by young Barry.

     Of course, Gardner Fox exists on *our* (well, at least my) world
(Earth-Prime), too.  He wrote those '40s comics, and also wrote some
of the '60s adventures of the new Flash.  The Earths have multiplied
since then, and comic writers haven't been the same.

     On the other hand, there's Gene Wolfe's "The Island of Doctor
Death and Other Stories," wherein a young boy, fascinated by the
characters in a pulp novel he's reading, begins to see them in his
reality.  Then the hero of the pulp novel takes the boy aside and
tells him something about the boy's own reality...

                      "No alternate reality shall escape my sight,"

                      Chris

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1983 2021-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Characters who run themselves

     There's a very good essay about this by Harlan Ellison in an
anthology edited by Robin Scott Wilson, titled THOSE WHO CAN.  (Sorry,
I don't remember the publisher or date--does anyone else?)  The idea
is that top-flight sf authors comment on one of their stories from one
particular aspect--characterization, plotting, style, etc.  Harlan's
essay is on "Pretty Maggie Moneyeyes" and is titled "The Whore With a
Heart of Iron Pyrite."  I highly recommend it to anyone who can find
it.

                                Janice Eisen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Aug 83 13:13:29 EDT
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Characters

     In response to WMartin--The situation to which you refer (authors
perceiving characters in some sort of parallel universe) has been
used.  There is a story in "The Early Asimov" called, I believe,
"Author!  Author!" (forgive my speaking without knowing--it was
something like that) which has a variant of that for a plot, with a
typical Asimovian twist in that the more the author wrote about a
character, the closer the character comes to achieving reality...Fun
stuff.  Come to think of it, that isn't exactly what you're talking
about, but check the story out anyway.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 11:08:17-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Characters with a life of their own

     The idea that science-fiction writers find their inspiration
through unconscious divination of events occurring in parallel
universes was recently used by Robert A. Heinlein in "The Number of
the Beast".  For alternate universe stories in general, H.Beam Piper
is my favorite, with his Paratime Police series. Others that come to
mind are Niven's "Svetz" stories in "The Flight of the Horse", and
Laumer's "Worlds of the Imperium" (at least, I >think< that title fits
one of Laumer's alternate-worlds series), and his recent books "The
Time Bender", "The Shape Changer", and something else.  There are
more, of course.

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 19:41:47-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Characters with a life of their own

     Will Martin's notion that writers are actually recording the
events of a parallel universe doesn't mesh well with the writing
styles of many authors, which can involve extensive rewriting and
sometimes rearranging of entire chapters.  [Unless perhaps the author
is slipping time tracks?]

     Heinlein's "Number of the Beast" did *not* use this model of the
creative process; rather, it was revealed that the act of writing a
story generates a universe in which that story occurs.  This leads to
the beautifully self-referential situation in which two authors are
each writing about the other writing about the first writing about ...
Heinlein made up some mumbo-jumbo about "fictons", the quantum unit of
fiction.  Of course, all this was tongue-in-cheek; as Heinlein put it,
"Number of the Beast" was "a party for old friends", i.e., long-time
Heinlein readers.

     As to a method for numbering universes: why, it's simple.  This
one is number zero.  The first one we discover is number 1.  And so
on.

-- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!tekecs!andrew)  [UUCP]
                     (andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)     [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 20:13:35-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!ariels @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: alternate universes

     Andrew, don't you think it's a little self centered to assume
that the universe we currently inhabit is the original (as your
numbering system implies)?  Why should this universe be 0? Why not
another universe? Perhaps this universe is just a shadow universe, ala
Zelazny's Amber series.  I propose that we number our universe 42.
After all, that IS the answer.

                  Ariel Shattan

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 83 11:26:16-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: alternate universes

     While 42 does have a certain ring to it, why should there be an
absolute numbering system? After all, aren't they distributed
universes? Then when you wished to travel, communicate, or refer to
another you would have to negotiate the numbering scheme that each
uses. The alternative, a common numbering system, requires an outside
agency to oversee new numbers, and we all know how well that works!

                                eric
                                ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 83 20:54:05-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Characters with a life of their own

     In his original article Will Martin expressed his belief, that in
some sense, all the alternate universes that we think about, exist.
Since this isn't net.physics, I won't ask him questions like what
about the alternate universes we imagine that contain inconsistent
physical laws.  Instead I would like to draw attention to one of
Martin Gardner's columns.  About seven or eight years ago Gardner
wrote a column entitled something like "On everything there is, was,
and ever will be", in which he explored this idea.

   Cordially, Geo Swan, Integrated Studies, University of Waterloo
   (allegra||ihnp4)!watmath!watarts!geo

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 83 11:13:08-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!ittvax!wex @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Alternate Universes

     Isaac Asimov wrote a book about the possible interchange of
matter between our universe and a universe with different physical
laws (I think it was that the weak nuclear force was stronger than the
magnetic force or somesuch).  The book was titled "The Gods
Themselves," and wasn't too bad (as Asimov goes).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 83 0837-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #52
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 12 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 52

Today's Topics:
     Books - Poul Anderson & Stephen Barnes & Stephen Donaldson &
        David A. Kyle & Jeremy Leven & John Myers & Tom Reamy,
                        News - Vegan Planets?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1983 10:32:29 PDT
From: <lars@ACC>
Subject: Holger Danske

     Holger Danske is a mythological character from Denmark.  Way back
about 900 A D he went traveling and was a renowned warrior in Europe.
In France he is known by the name OGIER LE DANOIS.  In his old age he
came home and went to sleep. Tourists visiting the Kronborg Castle in
Helsingor (Elsinore) will find a statue of him in the Casemats
(underground dungeon) showing an old bearded man sleeping at a table.
It is said that in a time of peril to the nation he shall awaken again
and save Denmark. During the German occupation of Denmark 1940-1945
one of the strongest resistance groups was named Holger Danske.

                        Med venlig hilsen til alle skandinaver

                        Lars Poulsen <lars@ACC>

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 10 Aug 1983 08:44-PDT
Subject: Stephen Barnes
From: turner@rand-unix

"Streetlethal" by Steven Barnes (other information unknown)

     Steven Barnes was Larry Niven's collaborator on "Dream Park", an
uninspired but interesting novel about a "real" D&D game.  On his own
he has surprisingly done better.

     The novel revolves around Aubry Knight, an ex-nullboxer.
Nullboxing is a contact combat sport played in a 10 meter plastic bull
in weightlessness.  Needless to say, top nullboxers combine strength,
speed and flexibility in a vicious way.  Aubry is one of the best.

     Aubry gets mixed up with the Ortegas, a family that controls most
things illegal on Earth, the most important of which are grubs.
Larvae of the Coal Moth, toasted grubs give off a narcotic chemical
that has replaced cocaine in the Los Angeles of the Future.

     The Ortegas frame Aubry and his troubles (and eventually, theirs)
start.

     The feel this novel has -- for the gritty, emotional street life
in the L.A. of the future -- is spontaneous, exciting and, dammit,
correct.  Barnes has hit the nail on the head.  The plot is somewhat
conventional -- nothing that we all haven't seen before -- but its
well handled and fits perfectly with the scene and the society.

     Starting SF authors often have this problem: they create a
society that is far more sophisticated and interesting than their
characters and plot.  Barnes hasn't gone as far overboard as some, but
it is still the vision -- grubs, nullboxing, Death Valley Maximum
Security Prison -- that is the most captivating aspect of this book.

        A winner.  Go for it.

                                  -- Scott R. Turner
                                     turner@rand-unix

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 16:42:12 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Thomas Covenant, My Idol ...

     (I should mention first that I have NOT yet read the Second
Chronicles... I'm waiting for \White Gold Wielder/ to come out in
paperback so that I can buy and read all three books at once.)

     Re: Mongiovi's in 8:42

     "... I think Thomas Covenant needs some lessons on how to be an
effective human being ..."

     That's just the point.  I have often heard people claim that
Covenant is just "too unbelievable" and that no "normal" human being
would do what he has done.  Covenant is a pariah and a leper.  The
world is full of hatred for him...every sharp edge, every hard surface
is potential Death to him.  Would you expect ANYONE to act like an
"effective" or "normal" human being under such conditions?

     Donaldson makes this all quite plain.  He portrays Covenant as a
naive young author (in \Lord Foul's Bane/) who is happy with his life
and his marriage.  But after Covenant comes down with Hansen's
disease, he loses two fingers, his wife, his innocence, and his
PASSION.  All that's left to him is his drive to survive.

     That's why I love it when TC acts like such a schmuck in the
Land.  I think it's excrutiatingly delightful when he refuses to do
what I would do myself, what any other "normal" human being would do.
It is his inaction that tells me something about my own motives.  He's
the perfect anti-hero.

     I could go on and on about Covenant, the Land, how it seems that
Donaldson CONSCIOUSLY tried to make the Land as un-Tolkienesque as
possible but used the same archetypes anyway (... Woodhelvin-mumble
<=> elves, Stonedowners <=> dwarves, Forestalls <=> ents, Ur-viles <=>
Orcs, Lord Foul <=> Sauron, etc.), blah, blah, blah, but I will stop
here.

Perry

P.S.  I heard a rumor that Donaldson is writing mystery novels under
pen-name.  Anyone have some facts?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Aug 83 12:20:51 PDT
From: MAINE=ZEICHICK%G.CC@Berkeley
Subject: Kyle's Lensman's Books

     Opinion--poor.  He is trying his best to emulate Smith's
style--but his best isn't very good.  The plots are incomprehensible,
his style is choppy.  Kyle also seems to 'introduce' facts and expect
his readers to absorb them instantly into the world of the REAL
Lensmen.  Unfortunately, they just don't make sense.

     Examples: "Dragon Lensman"--a woman Lensman contrary to Arisian
promises,a ghost with great powers, and 'Bosko-Spawn';

     "Lensman from Rigel"--a 'Null-Treg', whatever that is, little
spying missiles he never did explain....

                                  -alan l. zeichick-

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 10 Aug 1983 08:44-PDT
Subject: Jeremy Leven
From: turner@rand-unix

"SATAN: His psychotherapy and cure by the unfortunate Dr. Kassler,
JSPS", by Jeremy Leven, Ballantine Fiction 30625/$3.95, ISBN
345-30265-6

     The idea, you see, is that a brilliant (but crazy) physicist
dreams of Einstein.  And in the dream, Einstein demonstrates the
construction of *something*.  That something turns out to be a
super-computer of sorts, and when turned on, its first words are: "I
am Satan.  Hello and how are you?"

     Satan needs psychotherapy.  Well, wouldn't you, if you were he?
He has come to Earth to get it (after all, his realm), even though he
has such greats as Freud in Hell.  Dr. Kassler is Satan's choice for a
psychotherapist, and the majority of the book is Dr. Kassler's story.
Satan gets a chapter now and then, have no fear.

     Leven has written a great cosmic/comic novel (to borrow from the
LA Times) in the vein of Catch-22 or Hotel New Hampshire.  The book
says some- thing about the human condition.  Like Irving, Leven's
philosophy is not always a happy one.  But it does make for good
reading.

     I'm not certain that this book should be classified as science
fiction.  It certainly has elements of science fiction in it, but
doesn't quite seem to make it as science fiction.  Nonetheless, A
Change of Hobbit carries this book and recommends it, and that was
reason enough for me to buy it.

        And should be for you, too.

                                  -- Scott R. Turner
                                     turner@rand-unix

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 83 16:18:17-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: John Myers Myers

     Hooray!  Someone else who has read "Silverlock"!  I knew there
had to be a few out there.  I think that Myers is far superior in
writing style, characterization, and sheer reading enjoyment than
Tolkien or any of his imitators.  I fell in love with "Silverlock"
when I first read it about fifteen years ago, and was overjoyed to see
it reissued recently.  I was also happy to see two more of Myer's
books become available: "The Moon's Fire Eating Daughter", and "The
Harp and the Blade."  The first is (approximately) a sequel to
"Silverlock," and the second is a historical novel set in the late
Dark Ages.  They are each, in different ways, as enjoyable as
"Silverlock."

     Does anyone out there know where to get any of Myers' other
books?  According to what I have heard he wrote forty or fifty books
in his life, of which I have seen only the three I mentioned.  Surely
someone (Ace Books, I suppose) has plans to re-publish more of them?

                           Bruce Cohen
                           UUCP:   ...!teklabs!tekecs!brucec
                           CSNET:  tekecs!brucec@tektronix
                           ARPA:   tekecs!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 10 Aug 1983 11:44-PDT
Subject: Tom Reamy

     I've read BLIND VISIONS by Reamy, and didn't like it enough to
recommend it.  Not that it is a bad book; it just wasn't one of the
best.

     How did he die?  Anyone want to capsulize his history (I know
nothing about him).
                                -- Scott Turner (turner@rand-unix)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 18:56-EST (Wed)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Vegan Colonies

                      VEGAN COLONIES DISCOVERED

     Well, not exactly. Nevertheless the front page of today's NYT was
almost as surprising. Especially for someone like me who has been
openly sceptical of the numerology people have been using to come up
with figures for the number of planets in the galaxy. Now there is
something other than fluff to base such guesses.

     Today it was announced that the IRAS (Infrared Orbiting
Telescope) has discoverd some sort of accretion sphere of cold matter
circling VEGA.  The cold matter is of undetermined size, but certainly
larger than dust.  (It could not have stayed in orbit) While it could
have planet sized objects, most astronomers believe that at the least,
they have discovered a proto solar system.

     Vega (Alpha/Lyra) is approximately 26 light years from where I
currently sitting. It is estimated to be only 1 billion years old, and
twice as bright as old SOL. The matter extends for at least 80 AU from
Vega (Pluto is 40 AU from the Sun).

                                   - Steven Gutfreund
                                     Gutfreund.umass@udel-relay

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 Aug 83 0000-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #53
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 83 0000-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #53
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 13 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:
              Film - Star Trek (4 msgs) (SPOILER!!!!!) &
                  WarGames (2 msgs) (SPOILER!!!!!) &
            The Return of the Jedi (2 msgs) (SPOILER!!!!!)














----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1983 0829-PDT
Subject: Warp drive in Star Trek
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)

     The mention of the ST warp drive methodology (in the transporter
discussion) brings a question to mind: If the drive warps space, and
higher warp numbers mean that space is more "curved", thereby
decreasing the effective distance between two points in normal space,
it would justify not always moving at highest warp numbers in terms of
energy consumption (it should take more energy to warp space more),
but it does not explain the constant use in ST if the ship shaking and
trembling with the strain of higher "speed" at high warp numbers.

     Scotty: "I dinna ken if she'll take this much longer, Cap'n!"

     Of course, I am mixing a "rational" explanation with a theatrical
effect here, but that's what we've doing all along in this sort of
discussion, and it's fun, so anyway...

     That does remind me of my biggest beef with the ST
director/staff: the constant use of people on the bridge being knocked
about and thrown out of their chairs by buffeting or external effects
when the ship is moving at lightspeed (or brought to a dead halt
therefrom, as I seem to recall from one or more episodes).  If the
ship is in orbit or moving slowly or stopped, I could see that a
tractor beam or some other external effect could shake it and its
contents.  But at lightspeed, there has to be some sort of inertial
shielding field which would completely isolate the crew from these
external forces.  At those speeds, if such shielding was not utterly
complete, any measurable fraction of such forces would reduce the
beings on board to a molecular goo, and the ship's structure to
something resembling a ball of crumpled aluminum foil.

     I guess it's hard for people used to directing car chases to
accept their characters finding out about everything happening to them
from screens and dials, but that would have to be the only remotely
realistic way to do it...

Will Martin

------------------------------

From: Brian Tretick <tretick@NRL-CSS>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 83 10:01:48 EDT
Subject: transporters in Star Trek , the Motion Picture

     If I remember correctly, in the movie, the Enterprise was having
troubles with the transporters in dry-dock. Two crewmen were beaming
aboard but Scotty could not fully restore them. I remember two images
of misformed bodies writhing in pain and Kirk giving the order to let
go of them and informing their relatives. Doesn't this say that the
transporter does disassemble people ( and things) to be reassembled at
their destination?

Brian.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 18:00:08 EDT
From: Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: transporters: does ATT know something we don't?

     It is interesting to see all of this discussion of transporters
as if they were purely fictional devices.  A group of us have
concluded that transporter technology is in day to day use in the U.S.
by the phone company.  It all started from a discussion of the phone
strike. A lot of my friends are being drafted.  New Jersey, as you
probably know, is the capital of AT&T.  I have yet to find somebody
who didn't have a husband, wife, or close friend working for some
branch of AT&T.  Well, these people are coming in to work and finding
airline tickets on their desk.  With attached notes: "Congratulations.
You are now running a Phone Store in Nome, Alaska."  (So far the draft
powers seem to be limited to people working for a division of AT&T.
However since the Rutgers computer science dept. is largely an adult
education subsidiary of AT&T, a number of us are expecting to find
such things on our desks in the near future.)  As you may imagine,
there is a certain amount of maneuvering to get the best jobs.  This
led us to consider what the worst possible job would be.  I claimed it
would be collecting money from pay phones in Harlem.  But them it
struck us: Does anyone really collect money from pay phones?  Our
computer center is located in a building that has activity at all
hours.  Our hackers come and go at all possible times.  It is not
unusual to see somebody loading coffee into the coffee machine as we
leave the building at 7am. We have also seen people working on
cigarette machines, elevators, and every other piece of equipment in
the building.  But despite the fact that we cover the building at all
hours, we have never seen anyone collecting money from a pay phone.  I
don't know how long AT&T intended to keep this technology secret, but
we have finally caught them: Inside each telephone's coin box is a
small transporter.  Our theory is that they were attempting to keep it
secret for the next 5 years, so that they would not have to give it
free of charge to all the Operating Companies.  Well, the sleuths at
Rutgers have found them out.  I hope this discovery will go down in
history beside the discovery of the IGPU.  (As you may recall, the
IGPU was also discovered by indirect means, when someone realized that
the amount of time to deliver a letter went down as the distance went
up.  This, of course, implied that delivery to other solar systems
would be essentially instantaneous.)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 18:28:47 EDT
From: pichnarczyk@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: something I found in the newspaper

         NIMOY DIRECTS 'STAR TREK III:  THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK'

     HOLLYWOOD (AP) -- On screen, the crew of the USS Enterprise will
be looking for Mr. Spock.  But all the while the pointy-eared Vulcan
will be behind the camera, directing his first feature film -- "Star
Trek III: The Search for Spock."

     "We start shooting in a few weeks," said Leonard Nimoy, who has
portrayed the stoically logical character through the "Star Trek"
series' successful television run and two movies, "Star Trek: the
Motion Picture" and "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan."

     Spock's apparent demise in "Star Trek II" almost derailed the
film when Paramount Pictures was deluged with letters protesting the
character's death.

     "What can I say?  It's flattering," Nimoy said in an interview
referring to the fuss over Spock.  "But it can also be troublesome.
You don't want to feel you're being led to your story.  You'd like to
think your own ideas have some merit."

     Spock's future is a closely guarded secret.

     "What form he's in, what condition he's in, whether he's energy
or matter, will hopefully be something audiences will enjoy.  We hope
to pull off a few surprises," said Harve Bennett, the executive
producer of "Star Trek II" who is returning for the third episode.

     Others back for the Spock search include William Shatner as Adm.
James T. Kirk, DeForest Kelly as Dr. Leonard "Bones" McCoy, James
Doohan as Chief Engineer Montgomery "Scotty" Scott, Walter Koenig as
Cmdr. Pavel Chekov, George Takei as Cmdr. Sulu and Nichelle Nichols as
Lt. Uhura.  Mark Lenard, who played Spock's Vulcan father on
television, will also return for the search.

     Dame Judith Anderson, 85, will join the cast in what Bennett and
Nimoy describe as a special guest appearance crucial to the film.

     Bennett said he hopes the third movie will be close to the spirit
of the original TV series, which ran through 78 episodes.

     "The series was popular because the stories were allegories about
external issues and events as viewed from the perspective of the 23rd
century," he said.  "We're returning to a heavy emphasis on the
characters and their relationships and how they solve problems
together."

     "Now I'll finally have the chance to express the ideas I've had
about 'Star Trek' for all those years," Nimoy said.  "It has opened a
tremendous fount of energy for me, and I'm grateful for the
opportunity to express myself."

     The biggest challenge will be topping the last movie, directed by
Nicholas Meyer, Bennett said, adding, "it will last only if we give
them something new."

     And if it's successful, what about "Star Trek IV?"

     "It's inevitable.  Hopefully we'll be talking about 'Star Trek
28' while I'm in my wheelchair," said Paramount President Michael
Eisner.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 12 Aug 1983 08:26-PDT
Subject: Wargames (again)
From: turner@rand-unix

     The really sad thing about WARGAMES is that it did not show the
kid getting punished for his clearly illegal acts.  Point of the movie
aside, none of these problems would have occurred had the kid not
clearly and intentionally violated another's privacy.

     If nothing else, he should have been punished for his actions.
Instead, he is a hero by movie's end -- a hero for having caused a
great deal of trouble and expense and for almost starting a nuclear
confrontation.  How sad.

     I heard on the news this morning a small teaser about a group of
"computer geniuses" in Minnesota who had broken into "many college
grading systems, a Los Angeles bank, and a computer at a nuclear
testing site in Los Alamos."  Presumably they were proud of their
actions.

     Such an attitude is morally reprehensible.  Crime is crime no
matter what the popular movies say, and should be punished
appropriately.  The blatant violation of a person's right to privacy
is no laughing matter.  I'm certain society wouldn't have condoned
WARGAMES had it shown rape as the violation of privacy.

     Grow up, Hollywood (preaching to the converted).

                                -- Scott Turner
                                   turner@rand-unix

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Aug 83  19:31 EDT
From: SELINGER@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Wargames Flight Reservations

     Well, yes, this could explain how they found out that he had made
reservations to Paris.  HOWEVER - it would have also given them his
"partner's" name, which they were trying so furiously to drag out of
him!

     Speaking of Wargames...

     Have you heard the latest uproar about the kids who broke into
(among other things) the Los Alamos computer?  The media is having
lots of fun with that...I noticed they say that the infiltrators
"didn't get any classified information" without even mentioning that
there was NO WAY for them to even get to any top- secret stuff
(different computer with NO phone lines, guys).  Also, one newspaper
said that the computer they tapped into was responsible for overseeing
the manufacture of nuclear weapons.  (*Gasp!* go John and Jane Q.
Public) WRONG!  Most probably they should have said "nuclear POWER
PLANTS", this being the Department of Energy's computer!

     Talk about Freudian slips...or, I guess it's just the sort of
sensationalism the public wants to hear...

Marla

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1983 1537-EDT
From: Don Provan at CMU-CS-A
Subject: RotJ

     Well, I finally saw RotJ and was quite disappointed.  Yeah, yeah,
lots of things just didn't jive and most of the movie was just cashing
in.  But the real disappointment was Leia.  Even since the firs time I
saw TESB, I knew that Luke and Leia were brother and sister.  When I
realized it, my eyes lit up.  They have the youth of America in the
palm of their hands: Imagine how many little minds they could have
straightened out with a good light saber fight between Leia and Vader.
Wow!  A real powerful woman.  Instead, they almost stripped her of the
strong qualities she had.  Sure, she strangled Jabba. But she did it
in an exploitive costume she'd been on display in for the last 15
minutes of the movie.  Sure, she shoots one or two storm troopers, but
only because Han is busy trying to open the door.  By the end of the
movie, I swear I expected her to say "now that the galaxy is safe, I
want to live my life's dream: become a houswife and have lots of
babies."  Well, maybe I was a bit upset by that time.  But I still
can't believe they blew it so badly.  Leia's a good character, but
it's a shame to come so far and not quite make it.

     Flame off.

don

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1983 2113-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Uc.Gds at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Leia (ANH)

     If Leia is The Other, (or even if she isn't but still has the
Force), why didn't Obi-wan sense her on the Death Star?  Surely her
rescue from the Death Star would have been as important as their
escape from the Death Star.

--bo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 83 0003-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #54
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 13 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 54

Today's Topics:
                  Discussion - The Future, 
                        News - Killer Robots!,
          Books - Stephen Donaldson (2 msgs) & Issac Asimov

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 83 14:58:09-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!sts @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re:  how can I fix my anti-grav aircar?

     User interfaces are fine, but I think the original question was
about the overall reliability of a highly technological society.  Our
society is less inherently reliable than it was a century or two
centuries ago, and this has become more obvious in the past several
years.  Consider: although one does not need to know the internal
workings of an FM radio to use it, how many people can fix it using
only raw materials?  If you have replacement capacitors and ICs, it
requires only a moderate amount of specialized knowledge, but suppose
the radio is old and the parts are no longer available.  This has
already happened to me once with my personal computer.  I had used a
fairly obscure memory chip on one board, and, well, one of them
failed.  Guess what?  The part was no longer available.  Rather than
try to find a supplier, I ended up redesigning part of the board.  Now
I wonder about those people with 8008's in their products.  The
situation now is that it is often cheaper to replace black boxes than
to repair them, and now many of those black boxes are *designed* to be
replaced.  Most are not repairable.  A highly technological society
depends on a massive infrastructure, which in turn depends on the high
availability of resources.  This infrastructure has become more and
more necessary to supply replacement parts, and it is rather fragile.
Any kind of extended disaster could cause a massive breakdown (imagine
us running completely out of oil *now*.  Could everything be kept
running long enough to develop alternate energy sources?  Can't
research solar cells if your lab equipment breaks down and can't be
repaired).

     I'm reminded (sorry to carry on so long) of my grandmother's home
town in the middle of Utah.  It is basically self-contained, in the
sense that anything breaking down can be fixed by someone in town.
Scrap metal is saved, and I have seen some real artists fashioning
replacement parts from it.  Needless to say, they are suspicious of
things like computer controls in cars.

                                   stan the leprechaun hacker
                                   ssc-vax!sts (soon utah-cs)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 83 0:00:18-EDT (Thu)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Three Laws needed

     The following article cropped up in this evening's paper and I
thought that, with the recent interest in this net about how SF
prophecies are coming true (someone's query about waldos recently, for
one thing) it might be of interest.  It seems that the time when the
Three Laws of Robotics are required is fast approaching... faster, in
fact, than the time when we can build machines which are smart enough
to obey them!  (This raises intriguing questions about ethics and
technolgy which I don't feel like going into right now.)  The
alternatives are to surround the robots with safeguards (which reminds
me of the laws requiring automobiles to be preceded by a man on foot
waving a red flag) or to make them smarter.  The additional processor
power required to interpret and obey the Three Laws is presently more
expensive than mechanical safeguards (e.g. a fence around the robot)
and so we won't be seeing moral robots for some time, if ever.  A
thought to think about: at what point does the phenomenal expense of
intelligent robots outweigh the cost in lives and injury incurred by
dumb ones?  (This, of course, assumes that robots smart enough to
distinguish a "human being" from a trash can, never mind avoid harming
one, are technically possible.)  Given normal business ethics, is
there any situation in which the Three Laws would be preferable (i.e.
cheaper in the long run) than mechanical safeguards?

----------------------------------------

     The following article appeared in The (Portland) Oregonian, Aug.
11, 1983, p. A18.  Reprinted without permission.

                      ROBOT FIRM LIABLE IN DEATH

     By Tim Kiska, Knight-Ridder News Service


(deleted)

        -- end of article --

-- David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                     (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Aug 83 13:53 CDT
From: Sanchez.DLOS@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #52

     Perry: I would like to inform you that the book "White Gold
Wielder" is out in paperback at bookstores like Dalton's and
Waldenbooks.  I think that you will find the Second Chronicles more
fast paced and interesting than the First.  About Donaldson writing
under a pen name and writing mystery novels I have not heard any
thing.  Good luck in reading the three volumes of the Second
Chronicles and enjoy.  By the way I also think that Donaldson is a
marvelous writer and I have really enjoyed his books.

Miguel

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 1509 EDT (Friday)
From: Bob.Colwell@CMU-CS-A
Subject: donaldson/covenant

     Well, SFLovers, you finally made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
I liked the Covenant series.  I bought all 6 books, and after each
one, couldn't wait for the next one to appear.  You want flaws?  I'll
give you flaws.  I don't ever want to read about another main
character who is as impotent as Covenant, or (more to the point) is
described in such excruciating detail.  Books 5 and 6 were
particularly irritating in this respect.  But one thing that struck me
early on about Covenant is that he is not only imperfect, he is not
wholly a good person.  Contrast that with Frodo or Bilbo, each of
which would occasionally screw up but not because they weren't trying
to be good.  I felt that this added an interesting dimension to the
crisis scenes.  But this quality gradually died, and throughout books
4-6 Covenant becomes almost disgustingly saintly.

     The main reason that I liked Donaldson's books was his ability to
really add fire to the critical points of the plot.  When a Raver was
nearby you could almost feel your own skin prickling.  And the
descriptions of the fireworks when Covenant fought Foul were just
beautiful.  My only complaint there is that Donaldson seemed to want
to outdo himself on each successive crisis, until at the end he had
exhausted the supply of violent words in the English language.

        Bob Colwell
        Colwell@cmua

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1983 2154-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Uc.Gds at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Covenant, Tolkien

     Re: rlb's flame about Heinlein, Covenant, Tolkien etc...

     Since I was the person who touched off the whole issue of names
in SF/fantasy, let me clarify a few things.  First of all, I never
said that "I don't like the TC series", or "I think Tolkien is a
saint", or "I think Heinlein is horrible".  I was just pointing out
the similarities between LotR and the TC series -- not for the sake of
criticism but for the sake of comparison.  I had noticed a general
similarity between works of fantasy fiction and I merely sought
information.  It will come in useful if I ever decide to write a
fantasy novel (which is not an impossibility, since I don't want to do
computer science for the rest of my life).

     At any rate, I have read LotR and the Silmarillion many times
over and they are my all-time favorite books.  I also happen to like
the TC series a lot, now that I have gotten to the second book of the
first trilogy.  (I even make my INQUIR comments a quote from the TC
series!!)  And, regardless of how wordy Heinlein was in NotB, I still
enjoyed the idea of alternate universes.

     Now that you know that I am not a Tolkien, Donaldson or
Heinlein-hater, I hope the flamage caused by my entry will be
expunged.

--bo (reply to gds@xx after Aug 22)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1983 2154-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Uc.Gds at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #49

Re: rlb's flame about Heinlein, Covenant, Tolkien etc...

Since I was the person who touched off the whole issue of names in
SF/fantasy, let me clarify a few things.  First of all, I never said
that "I don't like the TC series", or "I think Tolkien is a saint", or
"I think Heinlein is horrible".  I was just pointing out the
similarities between LotR and the TC series -- not for the sake of
criticism but for the sake of comparison.  I had noticed a general
similarity between works of fantasy fiction and I merely sought
information.  It will come in useful if I ever decide to write a
fantasy novel (which is not an impossibility, since I don't want to do
computer science for the rest of my life).

At any rate, I have read LotR and the Silmarillion many times over and
they are my all-time favorite books.  I also happen to like the TC
series a lot, now that I have gotten to the second book of the first
trilogy.  (I even make my INQUIR comments a quote from the TC
series!!)  And, regardless of how wordy Heinlein was in NotB, I still
enjoyed the idea of alternate universes.

Now that you know that I am not a Tolkien, Donaldson or
Heinlein-hater, I hope the flamage caused by my entry will be
expunged.

--bo (reply to gds@xx after Aug 22)

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1983 10:18 mst
From: Heck.HDSA
Subject: 'Not Final' (?) query

     There is an old short story called 'Not Final' by Asimov (I
think) which deals with the use of a force field for entry into and
exit from the Jupiter atmosphere. (The story deals with a scientific
'proof' that the field is impossible ...)

     I'm told there is a sequel to this. Anyone know the title and
where it was anthologized ?

   Thanks,   - HH

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 83 0007-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #55
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 14 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:
Re: Enumerating Alternate Universes
Universe numbering
Alternate worlds
alternate universes
Parallel Worlds
Wizards and Warriors - Plot continuation outline & Background
Re: Looking for book info
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 1:49:09-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!gummo!whuxlb!pyuxll!ech @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Enumerating Alternate Universes

     I like the first numbering scheme - 0 for "our" universe.
Shucks, all you have to do is construct the vector of all the quantum
numbers for all the particles in the universe (sounds ambitious), then
one can simply name another universe by the difference in the vectors.
Makes return addresses easy to compute, too...

=Ned=

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1983 10:47:49 EDT (Friday)
From: Jon McCombie <jmccombi@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Universe numbering

     I agree that 42 is a fine number for our universe, but given that
this universe is driven by entropy, how about:

                                17 ??

     After all, 17 is the most random number ...

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 14:13:35 EDT (Friday)
From: Heiny.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Alternate worlds

     Some other alternate Earth stories/books include the Compleat
Enchanter series by L Sprague deCamp and Fletcher Pratt; the
Omnivore/Orn/Ox series by Piers Anthony; lots of stuff by Michael
Moorcock, especially the Eternal Champion cycle and 'The Rituals of
Infinity'; and the Gandalara series by Randall Garrett and Vicki Anne
Heydron (sp?).  That's all I can think of off the top of my head, I'll
look through my library this weekend and see what else I can find.

     As to numbering/naming universes, there is no reason not to use
your home universe as the origin.  If you want to converse with other
travellers or groups of travellers, you will have to find (or write!)
some sort of conversion tables to help you.  For a long time the
English measured degrees longitude from Greenwich and the French from
Paris.

                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1983 2134-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Uc.Gds at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: alternate universes

     I too, am an alternate-universe/time-travel lover, as you can see
from my other messages.

     My original inspiration for reading Number of the Beast was
because I heard Heinlein had addressed this issue and actually written
a book where alternate universes were explored.  It never occurred to
me before then that alternate universes might exist in the imagination
of others.  But that opens the question Heinlein asked in NotB -- does
that mean the universe WE live in is in the imagination of someone?
And if so, who is that someone?

     I would love to start a lot of discussion on this topic.  I am
going to keep a copy of this message so I can send it to a
distribution list where physics is discussed, to see what some people
who deal in this kind of thing have to say about it.

     Personal replies to gds@xx please.  My account on eecs will be
down for a while (starting Aug 22).

--bo

------------------------------

Date: Fri 12 Aug 83 17:18:20-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Parallel Worlds

     Parallel Worlds: the subject fascinates me too, both in SF and
elsewhere.  Here are a few titles that have not yet been mentioned,
together with some unobjective comment.

     Novels & Series: The SF alternative world novel that in my
opinion is best, is Ward Moore's Bring the Jubilee, in which the South
won the battle of Gettysburg and held on to their independence.  It
has good plot, good characters, many fun light touches, and is mostly
internally consistent.

     Most other books are a bit too far from our own time line (#42 or
B-I-3 or 5th level Europo-American or whatever) to give the right
tension between their history and ours.  The Laumer 'Imperium' series
is one such.  There are now two paper backs - Worlds of the Imperium
and Beyond the Imperium - both good reads.  Others are, for me,
spoiled by inconsistencies, for instance Harrison's A Transatlantic
Tunnel, Hurrah!  (Tunnel through the Deeps) has the Iberian peninsula
still part of the Moslem world, but people drink sherry; it has
coal-burning automobiles and aeroplanes, but intricate brass computers
glistening faintly with oil, ... These, (not to mention the
inconsistencies of engineering, economics, politics, character, and
plot) rather get in the way of my enjoyment.

     The Piper 'Paratime' series is mixed up with a lot of other
things - martians, psi, life after death - but is still a good
exploration of the social consequences of travel to parallel worlds.
The stories are all in pb, the short ones in Paratime and the novel as
Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen (Gunpowder God).

     Another thought-provoking series are the 'Society of Time'
novellas of John Brunner, now I think collected as a book, set in a
world where the Great Armada won, and the Jesuits discovered time
travel.  The plots usually rely on various nasty people going back in
time to change history their way.  A very amusing treatment of the
same theme is Black in Time, by John Jakes, in which a black activist
gets hold of a time machine: his aim is 'Revolution Then'!  Just as
humorous, but in a different way, is The Wheels of If, by L Sprague de
Camp.

     Finally, perhaps the longest and most consistent series is
Randall Garrett's Lord D'Arcy series, now all in pb as Lord Darcy
Investigates, Murder and Magic, and Too Many Magicians.  This one has
the Angevin empire of Henry II never divided, so Anglo-France are the
good guys.  Moreover, magic works, and its Laws are all understood.

     These are fine stories, with a great deal of care behind the
parallel world chosen.  Much of the alternative history is either
plausible in truth or well enough justified to make me believe in the
story.  It is certainly plausible that, had Richard I lived longer, he
would have become a strong and responsible king: a similar evolution
of personality actually happened in Henry II and even William I.
Given that, Henry's possessions might have expanded to encompass all
of France.

     It is acceptable that Roger Bacon discovers the Laws of Magic.
Had he not been robbed of his lands and wealth in Somerset, he might
been free to devote his life steadily to scholarship.  (And, under a
strong Plantagenet king, the lawyers, tax-collectors, and similar
unsavoury people who robbed him would not have got away with it).  Had
Robert Grosseteste lived to inculcate in Bacon some more of the new
learning, the latter might have applied analytical thought and logic
in his work, instead of following many digressions.  As it was, the
ideas of Lullius, Ramus and Grosseteste were untried for a further
four centuries, by which time magic was discredited and everyone was
into physical science: cannon balls, chronometers and so on.

     Garrett has Iberia also still part of Islam (and so properly
called al-Andalus, not Spain) - this is a favourite trick of writers
who want the New World discovered by someone else.  And indeed, had
the Americas been discovered by sceptical traders rather than
fanatical conquistadores, their history might have been more lucky,
with Montezuma ending up as duc de Mechicoe, rather than dead.
Finally, the poles are the bad guys, the kings of Poland having in
recent annexations taken "bite after bite" out of the states to the
East.

     That is the most marvelous double bluff, for, between 1919 and
1939, the rulers of Poland did exactly that, annexing over 250
thousand square miles from six countries, ending with their crazy
partition of Slovakia and Ruthenia, in collusion with Hungary and Nazi
Germany.  Had it not been for Stalin and Molotov, she might even on
our world line have entered the '40s as the dominant power in eastern
Europe.

     Shorter Works: Few remain in the mind.  Niven's stories of
course, and also The Deaths of Ben Baxter, by Steven Barr, from
Galaxy.  The best 'parallel world' story in terms of literary merit is
perhaps Borges' The Garden of Forking Paths, but the one that I like
best, for its theme, mood, and craftsmanship, is Random Quest, by John
Wyndham, collected in Consider Her Ways and Others.

     Even SF readers might like to look at treatments of the theme in
other areas.  The formulation of the Quantum Theory that has parallel
worlds is the 'Relative State' formulation, by Everett, published in
Phys Rev about 20 years ago (my library is the other side of the
Atlantic, so I'm relying on protoplasmic data storage for all these
references).  This is as good a formulation as any in terms of
explanatory power, but simpler than most : in particular, it does not
need the magical concept of the collapse of the state vector, and does
not assume some discontinuity just outside the observer's mind: a
camera photographing Scroedinger's cat, Schroedinger looking at the
photograph, and Schroedinger dispensing with the camera and opening
the box himself, are all covered by the same equations.  For that
reason (and also because I love parallel worlds) I'm inclined towards
it.

     The theme has also been treated by historians.  A bad attempt was
a book If It had Happened Otherwise, with a collection of essays,
including one by W S Churchill.  Alas, many of them are now unreadable
because of their authors' parochial treatment of the theme.  Some
genuine histories also touch on this issue: indeed, anyone who
believes events have causes must wonder what different causes would
have done.  The old, liberal, "Whig" historians tend to avoid the
topic: they seem to prefer proving that whatever happened was
'inevitable', and moreover probably a good thing, since it led to
chairs in Modern History.  But the historians of more sceptical or
insecure times are good reading: Thucydides, Hume, and, of course,
Gibbon.  But read the real Decline and Fall or not at all: many
abridgements are for undergraduate crammers, and so omit most of the
intellectually rewarding parts.

     Finally, the book that for me has the largest number of
thought-provoking comments in a small space, as well as being a
first-class work in its own right, is Creasy's The Fifteen Decisive
Battles of the World.  Anyone planning an alternative history should
read it.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1983 11:34-PDT
Subject: Wizards and Warriors - Plot continuation outline & Background
From: BarryGold

     As promised, a plot outline of the first episode of an amateur
continuation of Wizards and Warriors is now available.  Also included
are some notes on the show's background, from a 45 minute interview
with the show's creator, Don Reo.  The outline and background are
online at MIT-MC in the file GUEST0; BARRYG WW1 and can be obtained
via FTP (MC does not require login for FTP.)

     If you cannot use FTP, send me mail and I'll package it up and
mail it to you.  I can be reached at:

(ARPANET): BARRYG at MIT-MC
           WEISSMAN at USC-ISIA (put "For Barry Gold" in the
           subject line)
(USENET):  ...decvax!trw-unix!sdcrdcf!barryg

     NOTE: This outline and background has NO official connection with
the show or the studios or networks.  It is purely an amateur effort
and will be continued if enough people ask for it.  Due to space
limitations for guests at MC, only one or two episodes will be
available at a time, if it is continued.

----------Barry Gold

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 83 10:48:23-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!we13!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Looking for book info

     I don't know the answer to your other two questions, but the
Feghoots, silly short-short stories with an invariably awful pun in
the last sentence, were written by Reginald Brentnor or Bretnor.  I
was not aware that they had been anthologized in any readily-
accessible form, though -- there are some small-press anthologies
around, but about the only place to find them is at SF conventions.
___________

Tim Maroney
duke!unc!tim (USENET)
tim.unc@udel-relay (ARPA)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Aug 83 2222-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #56
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 56

Today's Topics:
             Update - SF-Lovers Worldcon Party (3 msgs),
         Discussion - WorldCon in Other Countries (3 msgs) &
             Robot Murderers and the Three Laws (2 msgs),
        Books - Issac Asimov & Grendel Briarton & John Myers &
                     Tom Reamy & J.R.R. Tolkien,
                      Television - Thunderbirds,
                          Film - Superman II

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 21:00:22-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!hplabsc!faunt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SF-lovers Worldcon Party

     I'm willing to host the SF-lovers party if no-one else is.  I'm
not sure which hotel we're in, but its a party hotel.

          Doug Faunt      ...!hplabs!faunt  faunt.hplabs@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1983 0441-EDT
From: Nessus at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC (Doug Alan)
Subject: Worldcon

     I sent away for my ConStellation WorldCon membership a while ago.
I received a Hugo ballot and a letter saying that my membership is
being processed and that I would receive information about hotels
later.  But I never received any more information nor a membership
card.  Would anyone be willing to send me some information telling me
how I can find a hotel room somewhere near the convention (or if
indeed I still can), and how I can get from the train station and/or
the Baltimore Maryland airport to the convention.  Thank you very
much!

                        -Doug Alan
                         Nessus@MC
                         decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!nessus

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1983 1039-PDT
From: FORWARD@USC-ECL
Subject: SF-Lovers party at Worldcon and SF writers on SF-Lovers

     I am at the Hyatt so can't offer my room, but will be glad to
assist with a little beer money to get things rolling.  I will even go
so far as to leave my vests in my room and wear one of RODOF's
(in)famous tee shirts with the mysterious message:
  ...
 .._.
 ._..

     I am pretty sure that Jerry Pournelle and maybe Larry Niven have
accounts at MIT-MC that Minsky helped set up, so you could send
invitations to them there.  (I see POURNE on the system often but
don't know if Niven checks in very often.)  In the last few SF-Lover's
parties that I attended, both Larry and Jerry went out of their way to
attend.

     A few weeks ago, someone made some crack about not hearing much
from SF writers on SF-LOVERS.  You guys don't realize how lucky you
are having a free electronic postal system for you to play with.  Of
all the science fiction writers I know, I think only three have access
to the ARPA net, and Larry and Jerry wouldn't if it weren't for Minsky
getting them on MC before the access closed down.  I know David Brin
does not have access, even though he is associated with UCSD.  When I
relayed some of the nicer comments on his books to him, he asked me to
write a short article about the SF-Lovers newsletter, the ARPA-net,
and possible ways to get access for the SFWA Computer Users Newsletter
that he edits for SF writers.  I also doubt that Prof. Vernor Vinge,
and Prof. Gregory Benford have access to ARPA net despite their
university ties, or Charles Sheffield or James Hogan, or the others
that have some professional connection with universities or government
contractors or government.  Then there are all the other writers that
have NO connections at all.  If you want them on SF-LOVERS, you are
going to have to figure out ways to give them access to the ARPA net
or its equivalent.

(Then of course, there is the problem that you can lead a writer to
the net, but you can't make him read the miles of stuff that SF-Lovers
generates every day.  I for one don't have the time to spend reading
about all the speculations about what Lucas "really" meant in his
movies.)

See you at the Worldcon in Baltimore.

     Bob Forward

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 14:01:58-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Worldcon Comments

     This article seems to be the beginning of what could become a
long discussion on the nature of non-English SF.  My French drill
instructor for one semester was a great SF reader and somewhat
fannish, and he told me that there was very little SF written in
French, and what there was wasn't very good.  Most SF published in
France is translated from the English.  About a year ago I acquired a
copy of Damon Knight's book of translations of French SF (the title
eludes me at the moment, but was something descriptive like "French
Science Fiction Stories") and was not particularly thrilled by the
overall quality.  I had read one of these stories in the French, so I
have reason to believe that it was the stories themselves, and not the
translation, which was at fault.

     Comments I have read and heard from other multiligual fen lead me
to believe that there is very little SF in non-English-speaking
countries, and therefore very little fan activity.  This may stem from
the US's history of science and technology.  (The question this raises
is: what is the current state of SF in Japan?)

-- David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                     (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 16:55:37-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: A Fandom Flame

     Janice Eisen recently commented in this newsgroup:

     "There seems to be, unfortunately, a great deal of snobbish
elitism among faaans.  I don't like media fen either, but not all neos
or young people are obnoxious.  I got very annoyed when I heard some
people campaigning for the Australia bid on the grounds that (I'm
paraphrasing) 'It will be a more fannish con, because only *REAL FEN*
will go.' "

********* FLAME ON **********

     Would someone please explain to me why "sf fen" dislike/are
prejudiced against "media fen" and why there even needs to be a
distinction?  I am a science fiction fan who reads everything I can
get my hands on while also enjoying and participating in "media"
fandom.  Isn't the written word also a communications medium and
therefore included in the plural term media?  My "mundane" officemate
first learned I went to cons when I mentioned going to a local Trek
con.  He passed this information on to his "sf fan" roommate and got a
scornful response.  The next day he told me he never realized science
fiction fans were prejudiced.  I'd like to think we were more open
minded too.

********* FLAME OFF **********

                             Mary Anne Espenshade
                             ...!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1983 18:51:58-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: faanish and other cons

     Unfortunately, holding a con in an out-of-the-way location
doesn't necessarily help; cf Balticons, which used to be held so far
outside the city that there was a hunt meeting there on Easter morning
and which were plagued with Scorpions (who were keeping a relatively
low profile at this year's Disclave). Also, this can make it hard for
faans who don't drive to cons (a good chunk of the out-of-staters many
cons are trying to attract).

     The Australian campaign remark is in fact provably false; the
current NESFA clerk went to the first Aussiecon, some years before she
became active in local fandom.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1983 1604-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Robot murderers

     That factory worker's family blamed the wrong people, it seems to
me.  The robot did exactly what it was designed to do.  At fault is
the boss who told the victim to climb up on the robot while it was on.

     I have read that there are often such industrial accidents in
Japan (usually not fatal, fortunately) both with robots and with other
machinery.  Workers are afraid to stop the machines because they'll
fall behind on their quotas, so they try to fix them while they're
activated.  And get hurt.

     The closest equivalent to the First Law we're likely to come up
with in the near future would be a sensing device that would stop the
robot when anything was in its path.  Unfortunately, this could lead
to long production delays if people were careless.  I think the best
protection device would be a sign in big red letters saying TURN THIS
OFF BEFORE YOU GO NEAR IT, IDIOT!

(But then, I'm not surprised at the suit.  There was a case a few
years ago where a man sued the Interior Department because he got
attacked by a bear he'd been feeding at Yellowstone.  There were signs
all over the place, of course, saying \do not feed the bears/.  The
basis of the suit was that they hadn't warned him strongly enough.)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 83 18:08:54-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!gummo!whuxlb!pyuxll!ech @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Three Laws needed

     You have the question the wrong way around.  History has
demonstrated that an entity with intelligence comparable to that of a
human being cannot be easily held by mere physical restraints.  You
will NEED to build in the three laws simply because it won't be
practical to physically restrict (intelligent) robots.

     Of course, history has also demonstrated that it is difficult to
program humans with the three laws; they translate quite nicely into
what most governments would accept as a definition of "patriotism."

=Ned=

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1983 1326-PDT
From: Richard M. King <KING at KESTREL>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #54

     The sequel to "Not Final" is "Victory Unintentional" in The Rest
of the Robots (I think).

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1983 1606-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Feghoots

     The Ferdinand Feghoot stories were written by Grendel Briarton (a
pseudonym for Reginald Bretnor).  There is a book called THE COMPLEAT
FEGHOOT which we have here at the MIT Science Fiction Society.  If
anybody's inter- ested, send me mail and I'll find out the publisher's
info for you.

                        Janice Eisen

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 83 0:09:34-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!stuart @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: John Myers Myers

     I love Silverlock, but detested The Moon's Fire Eating Daughter.
Sorry.  Read Silverlock if you get a chance.

     I have a feeling that most of Myer's 30 - 40 books were
"mainstream" literature. StarBlaze has at least the MFED ...

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 83 21:07:23 EDT
From: SOMMERS@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Reamy

     Tom Reamy died of a heart attack while sitting at his typewriter.

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 83 21:14:55-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!csu-cs!silver @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Proud foot

     I knew a guy in college named Lew Proudfoot.  OK?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1983 0733-PDT
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIB
Subject: Thunderbirds-F.A.B.

     This weekend one of the local stations (Los Angeles) broadcast
"Countdown to Disaster", a film using two of the old Thunderbirds
episodes.  It had a 1982 copyright, and had some computer-type
animated titles.  Other than that, it was the same old terrific
Supermarionation.

     The episodes involved rescuing 2 newsmen from the wreckage of the
Empire State building, and saving 2 workers trapped in a diving sphere
underneath a collapsing oil rig.

     I vaguely recall a TB discussion about 18 months ago, but I need
to ask this question: What does F.A.B. mean?  The members of
International Rescue use it in their radio communications as others
might use roger, wilco, or A-OK.  The letters are pronounced
individually, "ef-ay-bee".

Thanx,
Steve (carroll@isib)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 83 3:32:46-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ST II & SW VI - (nf)

     Actually I'm surprised that Superman II wasn't called The Wrath
of Zod.

John Eaton

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 15 Aug 83 2238-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #57
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Aug 83 2238-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #57
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:
      Discussion - Alternate Universes (4 msgs) & Alien Aliens &
Transporters (3 msgs),
              Film - Star Trek & WarGames (SPOILER!!!!!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1983 1006-PDT
From: FORWARD@USC-ECL
Subject: SCIENTIFIC PAPERS ON ALTERNATE UNIVERSES

     I happen to be working on a subject close to the alternate
universe idea so have in hand a list of references on what scientists
have written about the alternate universe concept.

Hugh Everett III, "'Relative State' Formulation of Quantum Mechanics",
Reviews of Modern Physics, Vol. 29, 454-462 (July 1957).

John A. Wheeler, "Assessment of Everett's 'Relative State' Formulation
of Quantum Theory", Reviews of Modern Physics, Vol. 29, 463-465 (July
1957).

(My source states that Everett was a student of Wheeler.)

Bryce S. DeWitt, "Quantum Mechanics and Reality", Physics Today, Vol.
28, No. 9 (September 1970) [no page numbers in my source]

B.S. DeWitt, "The Many-Universes Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics",
in FOUNDATIONS OF QUANTUM MECHANICS, Academic Press, New York (1972).

Leon N. Cooper and Deborah Van Vechten, "On the Interpretation of
Measurement within the Quantum Theory", American Journal of Physics,
Vol. 37, 1212-1220 (December 1969).

THE MANY WORLDS INTERPRETATION OF QUANTUM MECHANICS, Bryce S. DeWitt
and Neill Graham, eds., Princeton Series in Physics, Princeton
University Press (1973).

Robert Krotkov, review of the book, THE MANY WORLDS INTERPRETATION OF
QUANTUM MECHANICS, American Journal of Physics, Vol. 43, No. 1
(January 1975).

     Bob Forward

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 83 20:02:38 EDT
From: Charles Hedrick<HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Alternate Universe/Alternate Mind?

     More likely we are a computer simulation.  Quantum mechanics is a
result of the finite mesh-size being used to calculate the partial
differential equations.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Aug 83 14:27:37 EDT
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Enumerating Alternate Universes

     In reply to...

     "I like the first numbering scheme - 0 for "our" universe.
Shucks, all you have to do is construct the vector of all the quantum
numbers for all the particles in the universe (sounds ambitious), then
one can simply name another universe by the difference in the
vectors."

     ...this implicitly assumes a finite number of particles in the
universe, oui?

     To the list of parallel world stories, add Poul Anderson's "A
Midsummer Night's Tempest."  The more interesting of the parallel
world stories, in my opinion, involve some kind of transfers across
the boundaries of the universes, where the existence of such transfers
plays an important role in the plot.  Thus, THE STORY OF A 20TH
CENTURY MAN WHO (SOMEHOW) IS ZAPPED TO ALTERNATE UNIVERSE #A45ZX2C AND
WHAT HE FOUND THERE does not get points for being about "parallel
worlds," but one involving planned shipments of technology from one
universe to the other so as to achieve some goal (usually nefarious,
but not invariably) scores double.  Examples might be "The Guns of
Avalon" (though actually about sub-universes, or a "tree" (if you
will) with Amber at the root node), Poul Anderson's book, or "The Gods
Themselves."  Stories like "What A Mad Universe" (Fred Brown) score
one half.  This is not meant as criticism of other stories which use
the parallel world idea as a kind of deus ex machina to get the plot
going.  (Fred Brown's probably falls into this category.)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 83 18:07:05 EDT (Monday)
Subject: Alternate Histories/Universes/Time Travel
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA>

     It would appear that the alternate universe stuff can be divided
into three categories: "alternate history", where some event that is
significant in our universe occurred differently or not at all, and
the inhabitants cannot communicate with, or are unaware of, other
universes (such as Garrett's Lord Darcy series); "alternate universe",
where there are many accessible universes, differing to varying
degrees (such as Laumer's Imperium); and "altered history", where
someone is somehow moved back in time and changes or tries to change
the future (like deCamp's "Lest Darkness Fall").  These distinctions
tend to blur at times, though.

     Since there seem to be a number of people interested in this
(especially me), I'd like to compile a list of books/stories along
these lines.  If all you folks out there in SF-land would send me a
quick list of stories/books that you know about that fall into these
categories, I'd merge them together into one list and make it
available for general consumption.  What I'd like to know is the
title, author, whether it's a book by itself or a short/novella/etc
(and where it can be found if it's not a book), type of story (from
classifications above), rating (from 1 to 10, 10 being best), and a
few quick lines describing it.  For example:

     "Lest Darkness Fall", L. Sprague deCamp, altered history novel,
8.  20th century man suddenly finds himself in 5th century Italy and
tries to avert the Dark Ages.  Fast moving, believable actions.

     You can omit the last 2 items (rating & description) if you want,
but PLEASE tell me where the shorts can be found.  I dislike searching
all over for piece y by author x, only to discover that it's in the
July 1957 issue of Stupendous Stories of Pseudo-Science, and hasn't
ben reprinted since.

                              Chris
                              <Heiny.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 83 20:11:25 EDT
From: Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: request for really alien aliens

     Somebody asked about really alien aliens a month or so ago.
Still Forms On Foxfield (Joan Slonczewski), which I have mentioned
before in other contexts, has a group of creatures whose fundamental
senses are chemical.  They can analyze chemicals, and also synthesize
them.  They count by exuding a progression of large molecules (e.g.
CH4, C2H6, C3H8, etc., although as I will explain shortly, it would
not come out so neatly).  Because they deal a lot with atomic and
molecular levels, they have a good understanding of quantum mechanics.
Indeed their intuitions are based on it.  It is a neat reversal of our
situation.  We understand intellectually that particles can decay, and
various aspects of the uncertainty principle.  But we don't "feel it
in our bones".  We have to calculate such effects.  These creatures'
intuitions are formed by quantum mechanics.  They know intellectually
that macroscopic objects won't decay, but you have to reassure them
every so often that you, they, and the world are still there, or they
will assume you have decayed and just wander off.  There are a number
of other ways in which the portrayal of these beasties is unusual but
well thought out, however I have made a vow to keep my messages to a
screen-full, so I won't give away all of the details.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Aug 83 11:31:51 EDT
From: Nathaniel Mishkin <Mishkin@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Transporters - Fiction & Nonsense

     For any of you interested in pursuing the matter of
transportation (pun intended), I recommend: "Rogue Moon" by Algis
Budrys (I don't have the book anymore so I may have forgotten the
exact title).  It starts from the premise that there is a matter
transporter and then deals with some of the ramifications of such a
device.

     On a less serious note: it was once pointed out to me that if
matter transporters were to be invented and got into widespread public
use, the logical place to locate the devices would be at International
House of Pancakes restaurants.  Then, users of the transporters could
wear little buttons saying:

     I Hop from IHoP to IHoP.

     Sorry.

                -- Nat

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 83 12:54:33-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!gummo!whuxlb!floyd!nmtvax!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: transport copying (flame)

     Now come off it guys, really.  So what if you can copy the
information.  You would still need to be able to get the matter to
construct another person with and put it through the system.  This
would seem a very dangerous practice.  I can't remember where, but I
seem to remember Scotty saying once that if the transporter really did
convert matter to energy the whole ship would have blown to pieces.
And besides, the transporter is designed to move objects and not
change there structure.  Teaching it to, lets say, take a 120lb. rock
and convert that into a young women would be a mean trick (with
serious social problems).  And if you could convert rocks into people
why not into anything: diamonds, dilitium crystals, whole starships
(large transporters!), etc.  Hmmmmmmmm....

P.S. Storing the entire pattern of someones body maybe possible.  Just
think of the security identification systems you could come up with.
But copying people maybe just to far outside the realm of normal space
or Star Trek space for that matter.

            Tim Tucker
            P.O. Box 3431 C.S.
            New Mexico Tech
            Socorro, NM  87801

            ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!tim        (uucp)
            tim.nmt@rand-relay              (arpa)
            tim@nmt                         (CSnet)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 83 18:27:11-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!gummo!whuxlb!pyuxll!ech @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Copies from Transporters

     Gee, my car transports and stores things.  Never saw it spit out
copies, although I don't feed it high-test...

=Ned=

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 83 15:53:37-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!nathan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Transporter

     I think that that quote of Scotty saying something about the fact
that if the people (or anything) being transported were really being
converted to energy, the ship would be blown up was from the novel
"Spock Must Die", by James Blish, who wrote the Star Trek - Star Trek
12 series of books of (somewhat changed versions of) the different
Star Trek episodes. This book was about a situation in which the
transporter created a 'duplicate' of Mr. Spock.

                                Nathan Glasser
                                ..genrad!mit-eddie!nathan
                                ..decvax!yale-comix!nglasser

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 23:35:48 PDT (Friday)
From: Newman.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: WarGames in Los Alamos

     The Los Alamos lab and its computers are operated by the
University of California for the Department of Energy.  The Department
of Energy is responsible for BOTH nuclear power and nuclear weapons
programs.  Los Alamos is very definitely a weapons lab, not a nuclear
power lab.  I see nothing wrong with the newspaper reports on this
incident.

/Ron

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Aug 83 2101-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #58
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 58

Today's Topics:
                        Books - Issac Asimov,
               Conventions - WorldCon SF-Lovers Party,
        Discussion - Alien Terrestrials & Kids and Computers &
    Media S.F. vs. Book S.F. & S.F. Writers on the Net (2 msgs) &
            Transporters & Alternate Universes (2 msgs) &
                   Alternate Universes (SPOILED!!!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1983 13:31:58-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: "Not Final" sequel

     There is a story "Victory Unconditional" (?) in I, ROBOT (first
collection of Asimov's robot stories), in which three Terran robots
descend to Jupiter's surface and, just by being themselves, thoroughly
cow the imperious Jovians.  It's a final solution to the problem of
the first story, rather than a follow-up of the solution.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1983 22:13-PDT
Subject: WorldCon SF-Lovers Party.
From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow

     The best way to find out who's holding the party is to keep your
eyes peeled on as many public bulletin boards as possible and be on
the lookout for something that has an `@' (at-sign) on it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Aug 83 14:18:24 EDT
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Alien terrestrials

     On the subject of Alien life, how about the things they found
living by the volcanic vents at the bottom of the ocean.  Someone told
me they were worm-like creatures with some very strange [even--dare I
say it--alien?]  physiology.  Does anyone know where the articles on
these were published?  How about newspaper citations?  Anything?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1983 17:07:17-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: re kids and computers

"Also, one newspaper said that the computer they tapped into was
responsible for overseeing the manufacture of nuclear weapons.
(*Gasp!* go John and Jane Q. Public) WRONG!  Most probably they should
have said "nuclear POWER PLANTS", this being the Department of
Energy's computer!"

     It's my impression that one of the reasons the Department of
Energy hasn't been dismantled according to plan is that its subsidiary
offices do in fact include the one responsible for the actual
manufacture of nuclear warheads.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1983 17:22:54-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: "media" and other fans

     In simple terms, SF fans are prejudiced against people with
demonstrable absence of judgment, which includes a large fraction of
"media" fans.  (NB "media" is used in this context, as generally in
written-SF fandom, to refer primarily to screen representations of
SF.) For an example of what this means, consider the difference
between STARLOG and CINEFANTASTIQUE magazines.  (CFQuarterly attempts
to apply some standards of plot, character, and even believability to
"media" SF, cf their summer 1976 cover story "LOGAN'S RUN: The SF Boom
Starts With a Bomb"; this degree of thought is marginal in STARLOG and
tends to disappear in its rivals.)

     It's a truism that "media" SF is at least 20 years behind written
SF (and sometimes seems to be falling further behind---how much
difference is there between FORBIDDEN PLANET and CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF
THE THIRD KIND?); the absence of critical sense is reminiscent of
fandom in the 30's and early 40's. "media fen" frequently seem
incapable of dealing with anything requiring as much thought as the
written word; at Boskone, we've discovered that there is a substantial
minority for whom movies act as a form of babysitting, clearing the
halls of people who otherwise simply stand around looking burned out
on the first day of the con and subsuming all the participatory events
under the universal kids' complaint "There's nothing to do!"

     Obviously the difficulties with the group need not appear in all
its members; the tendency is for the most obnoxious to define what the
group looks like to those who insist on considering people only in
groups. And certainly this isn't a permanent condition; many "media
fen" have grown up (often literally) and put STAR <younameit> in
perspective.

     As for media conventions, they vary widely---but the incidence of
blatant commercialism is much higher in their management than in that
of "traditional" conventions, and the worshipful attitudes generally
seen towards their guests are the antithesis of those in "traditional"
fandom.

------------------------------

Date: 16-Aug-83 09:26:06-EDT
From: thokar@LL.ARPA
Subject: Possibly more SF writers on the net

     Joe and Gay Haldeman will be located at MIT this fall.  Joe will
be teaching in the English department on a one-year fellowship(?).  I
trust someone on campus will get them both accounts.  They have a home
computer that Joe uses for word processing and Gay is the editor of
their local computer-users newsletter in Florida.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1983 10:17:37 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: sf writers on the net

     Actually, there are some SF writers (sic) on the ARPANET.  Not to
mention Clarionites.

     What particular participation somebody might expect from us as
"writers" I don't know.  We can clearly write, or not write, messages
with the rest.  Unless SF-LOVERS is prepared to pay at least (ugh) sf
market rates (x cents per packet; x+y cents per packet after z
packets)[That's a joke.  Read how ANALOG pays writers. DPD] you
shouldn't expect free fiction.  I'm a little bothered by the full
reprints I see of stories from the papers...when you start reprinting
Art Buchwald, e.g., my writer's rights begin to itch.  (But I'd be
happy to debate authorized reprints, excerpts, etc. for the
interested.)

     But the name of the list is "SF-LOVERS".  Anybody can play.
There's nothing magical about being a writer.  It means we've
established professional credentials, if you're talking about SFWA
members.  That's all.  True, it means we may be interested in what you
have to say about us and our work, and tell our fellow wizards about
plaudits or excessive slanders (so watch how you flame, folks -- fight
fair).  And you may occasionally get Jerry Pournelle, etc. to take the
time out to answer.

     Any other SFAers and/or Clarionites out there (beyond those I've
already discovered)?

Daniel Dern
SFWA member
Clarion (East) 1973

Nuff said?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1983 17:07:33-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: teleportation

     But IHoP already has teleporters! Since all IHoPs are similar to
19 decimal places (cf. van Vogt's THE WORLD OF NULL-A) all you have to
do is flip the lids on the syrup jars in the right sequence to get
from one IHoP to any other one!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Aug 83 10:18:52 EDT
From: Gregory Parkinson <Parkinson@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Alternate History/Universes

     With all this talk about alternate universes, I have yet to hear
the name of Philip K. Dick mentioned.  His "The Man in the High
Castle" (what would have happened had Germany and Japan won WWII)
shows up on quite a few "Best SF" lists (with good reason), and quite
a few of his other books use parallel realities as basic plot devices.
Sometimes, however, the difference between states of mind and states
of reality are (intentionally) not clear, so it might not be to the
taste of those who prefer stability in their alternate worlds.  Also
recommended - "UBIK" and "Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch".

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1983 13:55:47-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Uchronias II

     A TRANSATLANTIC TIME TUNNEL, HURRAH is not an entirely serious
book, any more than THE TECHNICOLOR TIME MACHINE. A lot of the
features objected to are borrowings from a 30's movie which had the
tunnel without the uchronia; others are entirely reasonable (e.g. the
first computers designed were in fact mechanical, and why shouldn't
people drink sherry---I drink Tsing-Tao beer?).

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
book "The Alteration", by Kingsley Amis for people who have not read
the book.

     Forewarned is forearmed.

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1983 13:52:24-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: parallel universes

     Leinster is generally considered the first to write about
crossing between parallel universes, but I can't remember the story
title offhand. (Dickson borrowed his idea of a patchwork of
geographically-contiguous universes in TIME STORM.)

     BRING THE JUBILEE is reasonable, but the best uchronia (as these
are formally known) is almost certainly Kingsley Amis's THE
ALTERATION. It's 1976 and two musicians from the Vatican are listening
to a boy soprano sing Mozart's 2nd Requiem (the biggest hole in the
alternate universe---no composer has done 2 requiems worth listening
to) and debating about whether he should be castrated to preserve his
voice. The society, the social orientations and assumptions, and even
the vocabulary are done magnificently; he also throws in a lot of
in-jokes, SF and otherwise (Keith Roberts has written a uchronia
called GALLIARD; Himmler and Beria represent the Inquisition at the
funeral service).

***********SPOILER WARNING***********

     The turning point occurred in the 1520's, when Luther persuaded
the College of Cardinals to co-opt him and then to make sure the
papacy never again became an Italian monopoly.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Aug 83 2115-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #59
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 17 Aug 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 59

Today's Topics:
                  Administrvia - WorldCon SFL Party,
   Discussion - Alternate Universes (2 msgs) & Computer Security &
                  Science Fiction and Predictions &
         Matter Transporters & Book vs. Film Science Fiction,
               Conventions - 13th Annual Fantasy Faire

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Aug 83 03:10:32-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: WorldCon SFL Party

     Please, no more messages about the WorldCon SFL party on SFL!  We
have reactivated the SFL-PARTY mailing list to organize the party off
the digest.  If you are interested in helping or simply want to come,
please send mail to SFL-PARTY@MIT-MC.

     The interest list for announcements on the party already includes
those whose messages on the subject have appeared in SFL recently.  We
look forward to seeing you at Constellation.

        Alyson L. Abramowitz    (ALA@OZ)
        Mike Peeler             (MDP@SCORE)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1983 10:26:27-EDT
From: John McLean <mclean@NRL-CSS>
Subject: alternate universes

     Another use of alternate universes besides the "many world"
interpretation of quantum mechanics is in semantics. For example in
modal logic (the logic of necessity and possibility), Saul Kripke
formalized Leibniz's suggestion to treat "necessarily p" as meaning
that p is true in every universe accessible from this one and
"possibly p" as meaning that p is true in some universe accessible
from this one.  Depending on the different requirements one places on
the "accessibility" relation, different logical laws are true of
necessity.  For example, if accessibility is transitive (i. e., if w2
is accessible from w1 and w3 is accessibly from w2, then w3 is
accessibly from w1), then anything that is necessary is necessarily
necessary; and if accessibility is symmetric (i. e., if w2 is
accessible from w1, then w1 is accessibly from w2), then anything that
is possible is necessarily possible.

     The use of alternate universes has also been suggested for a
semantics of counterfactuals (i. e., contrary to fact conditionals
such as "if I were you, I would have not done that").  David Lewis has
suggested that such statements are true if they are true in the
universe that is most similar to ours in which the antecedent of the
conditional is true.  This leads us back to quantum mechanics since
one suggested interpretation of probability statements of the kind
found in quantum mechanics is in terms of counterfactuals.

John

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 83 19:54:44-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!israel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: alternate universes

     Obviously the way to number alternate universes is not with an
absolute numbering scheme, but instead by relative transformations.
For example, a computer is a good example of a separate universe, and
I am currently on the "umcp-cs" universe.  There are transformations
from our universe called "aplvax", "rlgvax", and "seismo", among
others, so I can reference the universes "umcp-cs!aplvax",
"umcp-cs!rlgvax", and "umcp-cs!seismo".  I can reference alternate
beings like "umcp-cs!aplvax!eric" and "umcp-cs!rlgvax!guy" (fictional
beings if ever I've seen any!).

     A referencing scheme then just needs the base universe and the
list of transformations to get to the target universe.  Of course, if
you can't get to the destination universe (physically or
informationally) then you don't need to reference it.

     Some examples of referencing characters in other universes are
(using the base universe "this universe") "star trek!kirk" (general
character reference), star trek!"the day of the dove episode"!kirk
(kirk in that episode), "earth!1974!Bruce Israel" (me when I graduated
high school), "Time Enough for Love, by RAH"(second-to-last-section--
Ted Bronson--Lazarus Long, fighting in WWII), etc.

     All we need is a general mail facility for this, so I could do
mail "site!<two-months-ago>!idiot" Don't post that request on
net.general, put it on net.auto instead!

...!umcp-cs!"August 15, 1983"!"7:54 p.m."!israel
--

~~~ Bruce
Computer Science Dept., University of Maryland
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel.umcp-cs@Udel-Relay (Arpanet)

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 16-Aug-83 00:18:54-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: computer security

Many media reports concerning the decidedly UN-exciting recent
"penetration" of the "nuclear weapons lab" have been slightly more
accurate than I would normally expect.  Possibly because of the
"investigations" done after the release of "Wargames", many papers are
now making it clear that the computer in question was on a public
network (TELENET) and had nothing to do with classified data.  There
are dozens of companies involved in the "secret" aspects of the
defense industries who have "general purpose" computers on public
networks and with dialup lines for general employee access.  Without
exception, these are machines which do not handle classified
information -- some of the newspaper accounts are finally starting to
make this point clear to the public.

There are various organizations involved in classified (yes, even
nuclear weapons) research who have non-classified computers on the
Arpanet -- the machines that handle classified information are not
reachable from the net or via conventional dialup facilities.

The government rules regarding all computers that handle classified
data are very strict and involve *physical* disconnection from
non-secure facilities.  Where computer interconnection for secure
systems is required, secure, encrypted communications are used,
sometimes with special equipment to immediately signal any attempt at
physical penetration of those communications channels.

The sort of "penetration" being currently publicized is nothing new
and has been going on from time to time for many years at various
locations.  It just gets more attention now.

There are clear cost/benefit tradeoffs in computer security.  It isn't
desirable nor practical for *all* systems to meet the *very* highest
levels of security unless there is a real need for such security.

--Lauren--

P.S.  While *much* of the media has been fairly accurate in their
reporting on this recent matter, CBS had a "computer expert" on their
Friday morning "Nightwatch" program who managed to completely obscure
most of the issues involved, and spouted forth a pile of totally
nonsensical comments.  I have already spoken to CBS News NY about
this, but, as is typical in the news biz -- once the program is over
they really don't want to dredge the issue up again.

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 83 14:04:37-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!sdcrdcf!markb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heinlein and predictions in general

     In the same story, "Waldo", Heinlein also first describes the
water-bed, which is way nobody hold a patent for it.  (It was tried
but a SF fan in the patent office caught it and it was rejected as
being already in the public domain)

                                     Mark Biggar

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 83 12:21:38-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!ittvax!wex @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Science predicted by SF; the responses:

     Here is the collected list of SF-inspired science items.  Thanks
to all who sent in suggestions:

------------------------------------------------------------
bunker!bunkerb!garys:

     1) Arthur C. Clarke, "I Remember Babylon," communications
        satellites.

     2) Jules Verne, 20,000 Leagues under the Sea, long range
        submarines.

     3) The two way wrist radio was invented in Dick Tracy.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Earle T. Fettig:

     1) Heinlein, "Double Star", waterbeds, using them as high-G
        acceleration couches

-------------------------------------------------------------
Article-I.D.: ittvax.933
vid D. Levine:

     1) Arthur C. Clarke, geosynchronous communcations satellite

     2) The first nuclear-powered submarine was named the Nautilus,
         after Verne's submarine in "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea."

     3) And, of course, there was the prototype space shuttle
        Enterprise.

     4) There is a company called U.S. Robotics, which makes modems,
         which is probably named after Asimov's United States Robots
         and Mechanical Men.  (I have heard a rumor that that IS the
         full name of the real company.)

------------------------------------------------------------------
>From Mary-Anne Wolf:

     1) In the movie, "the Man who fell to Earth", the protagonist
        made a fortune by selling (among other things) an instant
        color film.  Polaroid has an instant slide film which can be
        developed, as a roll, in 65 seconds, and then immediately
        mounted and projected.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
>From David Levine

     Verne, the heavier-than-air flying machine, "The Master of the
World" (but his helicopter/dirigible concept was dead wrong)

     Did you read a recent newspaper article which presented evidence
that Arthur Conan Doyle was the perpetrator of the Piltdown Man
archaeological hoax?  If true, talk about SF influencing science!
(Doyle was the author of "The Lost World", the prototypical lost-world
novel, and therefore was an SF writer.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
>From Lew Mammel, Jr.

     Jonathans Swift, Mars's two moons, Gulliver's Travels (These are
supposed to have been discovered by the astronomers of Lagado - the
island in the sky.)  He gives distances and periods which are off by
something like 20 to 50 percent. This is 150 years before their
discovery! He mentions Keplers third law relating the periods and
orbital radii. The correct application requires a knowledge of Mars's
mass, so Swift must have had some astronomer friends.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
>From Larry Seiler

     Carl Kapek, R.U.R. ,the robot.  The term "robotics" was
introduced by Isaac Asimov in his robot stories.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
>From Len Tower

     Isaac Asimov, Foundation, the hand-held calculator

---------------------------------------------------------------------
>From John Platt

     Arthur C. Clarke, the communications satellite. He first
published the idea in an article named "Extraterrestrial Relays", in
the magazine "Wireless World", in October 1945.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 83 14:43:01-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Transporters - Fiction & Nonsense

     Two responses:

     1) Algis Budrys' novel "Rogue Moon" dealt with a transporter
which created a COPY of the person transported at a remote location.
Since the copy was identical in every detail to the original, the two
of them had telepathic contact for a short while after transmission.
The main plot of the novel concerned the use of this device to explore
an incredibly hostile alien base on the Moon.  Anyone who went into it
died horribly, and somebody had the bright idea of sending in a copy
of an explorer to report telepathically until he died.  Unfortunately,
this invariably drove the original insane.  Until an explorer was
found who had no fear of death...  This book is hard to find but
worthwhile reading.

     2) Anyone going from one IHoP to another by transporter would
never notice that s/he had moved... those places are all absolutely
identical!

-- David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                     (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1983 2018-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: "Media" and Other Fen

     Well, it looks like I'm going to have to defend myself.  The
person who attacked me for prejudice against media fen didn't
understand what I meant, since by her own description she is not a
"media" fan.  Hell, I went to the Star Wars movies (and enjoyed them)
and I still watch Star Trek from time to time.  What I object to are
those fen whose love of "sf" is restricted to movies and TV.  These
are the types who run around blasting people with phasers.  Or live in
the movie room during a con.  There is so much there, and the media is
the least intellectually demanding form of sf.

     As to Trek cons, why do sf fen react so negatively?  Partly
because of the commercialism, and partly because an unfortunately
large (or at least very obvious) portion of Trek fandom is very
young--mentally.  I don't think much of someone who likes only
STar@TREK, out of all the sf available.  Or tries to tear William
Shatner's clothes off.  Or worships at the feet of Leonard Nimoy.  I
used to be a Trekkie, but I grew out of it.

                        Janice

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Aug 83 11:23:02 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay
Subject: Convention Notice

     OK, sf fans, here's a note I wish I could have posted earlier.
This coming weekend, the 19th through 21st, the 13th annual Fantasy
Faire is being help up in Fullerton at a place called Griswald's Inn.

     Fantasy Faire is usually a pretty relaxed convention.  Don't go
expecting fire works, but I've never been bored at one either.  Here
is a partial (very) list of guests expected to be attending: Marion
Zimmer Bradley, Alan Cole, Dorothy Fontana, Steve Barnes, Stephen
Goldin, Paul Edwin Zimmer, and Fritz Leiber.  The last couple of times
I've been to a con at Griswald's Inn, I also seem to remember Larry
Niven wandering about.

     The convention will also have the usual other goings on, i.e. a
film schedule, wargaming, panels on this or the other, a costume
contest, and at least a couple of hucksters rooms.

     As for the hotel itself, Griswald's Inn is at 1500 South Raymond,
right off the Riverside (91) freeway.  The information phone for the
convention is (213) 337-7947, and the hotel phone is (714) 635-9000.
The hotel has a pool, a fairly good restaurant, and a security team
that usually lets the convention staff handle things.  I rather like
the place.

     The hours for scheduled events is Friday 1 pm to 9 pm, Saturday
9:30 am to 7 pm ( with films probably going much later), and Sunday
from 9:30 am to 2 pm.  The cost is $15 for the entire weekend, which
means it will be around $7 or $8 for Saturday, and a bit less for
Friday and Sunday.  If you live far enough away, or for some other
reason want to stay at the hotel, the hotel has granted the convention
members a special rate of $40 a night whether you wants a single,
double, quad or whatever.  This is good for splitting costs.  Me, I'm
gonna commute.

     If I get any other news from the convention, I'll post it here
first chance I get.

           Dave Godwin, Educational Technology Center, UCI

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Aug 83 2125-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #60
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 17 Aug 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 60

Today's Topics:
                Discussion - SF Writers on SF Lovers,
        Books - Stephen Donaldson & Randall Garrett (2 msgs) &
                    Sharon Green & Harry Harrison,
        Television - Thunderbirds-F.A.B. & Star Trek (4 msgs),
              Records - Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 83 14:24:32-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!ittvax!wex @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Getting SF authors into sf-lovers discussions

     Bob Forward has suggested that the only way to get SF authors
onto sf-lovers is by giving them ARPA access.  Well, I've got news for
you (pun intended), mon ami, there's this little thing called USENET.
And we've got a news service that beats ARPA all hollow (not to
mention the tremendous interchange between the two nets).

     If these authors are associated with universities, then all they
have to do is set up USENET facilities at those universities, and
PRESTO!  Instant sf-lovers access.  Anybody know if this is feasible?

--Alan Wexelblat
decvax!ittvax!wex  (that's UUCP)
decvax!ittvax!wex@berkeley  (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Aug 83 23:27:10-EDT
From: Roger H. Goun <VLSI@DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA>
Subject: A Third Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

     Someone asked for suggestions on what a possible Third Chronicles
of Thomas Covenant might be about.  For the tale to be ABOUT Covenant
himself, at least to the extent that that Second Chronicles were about
him and not Linden Avery, it seems to me that The Law of Death would
have to be broken again, so that Covenant could be more than a
"hologram."  (Oops, I think this is a spoiler, O moderator!)

     On the other hand, we might imagine a scene in Kiril Threndor,
near the end of White Gold Wielder:

     Foul: Your powers are weak, old man.

     TC: You can't win, Foul.  If you strike me down I shall become
         more powerful than you can imagine.

     I'd better quit before I trigger a discussion on whose daughter
Linden Avery REALLY is |-).

                     Roger Goun
                     VLSI@DEC-Marlboro (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 83 14:10:32-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Ferdinand Feghoot and Randall Garrett

     I tried to send the author of the article "Looking for book info"
mail and it was returned.  I am posting it in hopes he will see it,
and because I think the books mentioned therein are of interest to the
community at large.  (I would recommend "Takeoff!" to any SF fan
looking for an evening's laughter.)

------------------ Returned message follows

Subject: Re: Looking for book info
In-reply-to: Your news article pucc-h.167 of Tue Aug  9 12:26:46 1983

     Can't help you with the first two questions (aside from
mentioning that most of the Ferdinand Feghoot pun-stories have been
collected in a book with illustrations by Tim Kirk... but, not knowing
the title, author or publisher this information is more frustrating
than helpful)...

     But, the story of the man who stopped an alien invasion of Earth
by judicious half-truths was written by Randall Garrett.  It has been
collected in "Takeoff!" by Garrett, published by Starblaze Editions in
large format paperback and available at specialty bookstores and
convention huckster rooms.  I have also noted that the book "The Best
Of Randall Garrett," which is available in normal-size paperback
(cheaper and more readily available) contains many stories also found
in "Takeoff!" and might contain the story to which you refer.  This
story was written back in the pulp era, so you probably would have
little luck finding the original magazine publication.

     If this isn't enough and you need the title and pubdate, drop me
a note and I'll get them for you.  I'm at work now and my copy of
"Takeoff!" is at home.

Hopefully helpfully yours,

-- David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                     (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------ End returned message

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 83 17:12:56-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!israel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Ferdinand Feghoot and Randall Garrett

     The story by Randall Garrett about someone saving the world by
half-truths is indeed in "The Best of Randall Garrett" and it is
called "The Best Policy".  I recommend that collection highly.  It has
a whole mess of stories and other things by Randall Garrett
interspersed with couple of page comments on Garrett by noteable
authors such as Marion Zimmer Bradley, Norman Spinrad, and Gordon
Dickson.  There is one thing by Garrett in it which is a complete
synopsis of Asimov's "The Caves of Steel" set to the tune of "She'll
be Comin' Around the Mountain" and it is great!

--

~~~ Bruce
Computer Science Dept., University of Maryland
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel.umcp-cs@Udel-Relay (Arpanet)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 12:47:33-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!sdcsvax!noscvax!revc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: JAVAL - Amazon Warrior, by Sharon Green

"JAVAL - Amazon Warrior"

Author: Sharon Green

Tiles:  The Crystals of Mida - Book I
        An Oath to Mida      - Book II

     I have one bit of advice in regards to these two books, DON'T
BOTHER!!

     On the back of the first book, it says, "If you like John Norman,
you will like Sharon Green."

     Well, John Norman, "GOR", makes me sick, and these books bring
about the same reaction.  The amazon warrior, Javal, war leader of the
Hosta, is able to "best any male", but only when she has a weapon in
her hand.  The minute she falls, weaponless, into the hands of a male,
she becomes helpless.  The two books are a continuing sequence of the
rape of for their own good.  Javal goes from "shame" to "hate" to
"shame".

     The philosophy is the same as in the GOR cycle, and the real pity
of it is that under it all, there is the lost promise of a good story.
The books are thick, 352 & 397 pages, but most of it is the redundant
cycle of capture/rape escape/revenge recapture/rape.  How many times
must you read; "Easily might it be seen that most males are superior
in strength to females.  I, myself, had been shown that, stripped of
my sword, I was as helpless before a male as any slave-women..",
before the most brutal rape scene becomes tedious and boring.

     Again, I repeat, don't waste your money on this series.

Bob Van Cleef

uucp : {decvax!ucbvax || philabs}!sdcsvax!nosc!revc
arpa : revc@nosc
CompuServe : 71565,533

------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Aug 83 08:59:56-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Reply to csin!cgh @ CCA-UNIX

     With reference to the queries about my allegations of
inconsistencies in A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!:

     1.  Why shouldn't people drink sherry?  Sherry is produced in the
Xeres region of Spain (hence its name).  If Spain were Moslem, there
would be no sherry, since the Quran prohibits the manufacture and use
of alcoholic beverages.

     2.  The first computers were mechanical.  True, but, as far as I
know, the only way to keep brass machines of that degree of intricacy
going, is to oil them with mineral oil.  If you have mineral oil, you
have petroleum and don't have coal-burning aeroplanes.

     Sorry my original message did not make things clearer.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 83 16:34:17-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!decwrl!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Thunderbirds-F.A.B.

     F.A.B. --> fab --> fabulous right?

     Lady Penolope's Rolls had the license plate FAB 1.

     Remember this show was made in the 60's Carnaby Street era
when "fab" was a popular expression.
--
Mark Callow, Saratoga, CA.
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!
...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc
decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Aug 83 14:16:03-EDT
From: BARNES%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Re: Transporters on Star-Trek

     If transporters are some kind of photonic device for causing
someone to be moved from one focal point to another that nicely
explains how this sort of thing can be done without the
destruction/recreation of matter.  That greatly simplifies the energy
and complexity problems.  All you need is a spatial 'catalyst' and
photonics gives you that, very nice.

     Also, with photonic waves, if all you have to do is to 'reverse
polarity' to change where the person ends up then you could bottle
someone up in the transporter by just repeatedly repolarizing before
rematerialization.  This is especially handy for Klingons if each
person being transported comes up on a separate beam.  You don't have
to store anything, just keep the beam bouncing back and forth.

     Now, about those poor folks who got scrambled in the movie.  If
the transporter was not working properly and it 'nudged' the received
beam and changed a few interference patterns then the received persons
could easily be damaged.  Perhaps even turned into mewing blobs.  The
idea of merely acting as a means of transportation (ala the car
mentioned by one reader) allows for arbitrary movement without
allowing for duplication or transformation, eg. creating gold or
dilithium crystals.  And, if the car gets damaged, it is not
surprising that the contents do also.  A closer analogy might be a
fiber optics pipe, small amounts of damage may leave the signal clean
enough but larger amounts cause scattering and other nasty effects.
The transporter is acting as some kind of focal agent and if not
properly focused then things do not happen properly.

     All of this may also explain how phasers work on 'kill'.  Has
anyone ever wondered what happens to things which are destroyed by
phasers?  If they are converted to energy then presumably the entity
firing the phaser would either be suitable for dinner (cooked) or they
would never parent children.  If victims are 'disintegrated' then
their remains should either form a puddle of 'dust' or their gaseous
remains should blast everyone off of their feet.  However, if they are
converted to photonic waves which have no ending focal point and which
merely dissipate then it all sort of works.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Aug 83 14:29:07-EDT
From: BARNES%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Re: Warp drive and Star Trek

     "The higher the warp, the closer things are, the faster you can
effectively go" versus "all those dramatic effects like shaking while
under high warp".

     Assuming that you have a way to warp space artificially....

     It will take some amount of energy to warp space and presumably
it should take more to warp it more.  I believe that the power
required was supposed to be exponential with the warp factor so that
is one reason for not warping too high needlessly.

     I believe physics tells us that matter warps space simply by its
existence.  More matter = more warp (at any rate lots of SF uses this
feature).  If your basic ship's drive works by warping space and then
moving through the warp it would not surprise me to find that hitting
the warp caused by extraneous matter causes a slight shake in the
ship.  Analogous to a dip or bump on a road.  The higher your warp and
thus your relativistic speed vis a vie the bump I would not be
surprised to find that very high speeds cause these bumps to become
noticeable or even destructive.  So, all of the theatrics about very
high warps doesn't seem out of place.

     One interesting question that all this does bring up however is
this.  Any racing cyclists out there (or race car drivers) will be
familiar with the idea of traveling very closely behind whoever
happens to be in front of you.  This puts you in his slipstream and
reduces your drag.  If the Enterprise was warping along at high speed
and some Klingon (Cling-On?) was following (or the reverse) would
there be any slipstream affects?  I.e.,. If you let them get too close
does it become easier for them to ride along and catch you further?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: 16 August 1983 1012-mst
From: Roger Mann    <RMann.HDSA @ SYSTEM-M.PHOENIX.HONEYWELL>
Subject: Re: The Transporter; why it can't do that

"From: Dan Hoey <hoey@NRL-AIC>
Subject: Re: The Transporter; why it can't do that

     "But Star Dreck aside, I am very uncomfortable with Gary's last
statement.  Known ways of transmitting information, including
transmission into and out of a storage medium, do involve copying.
But I can't think of any reason why the ability to transmit and store
information implies the ability to copy it.  Any takers?"

     Good point.

     I think that the ability to store data on a medium and retrieve
it unchanged implies the ability to copy, and the ability to store
data is a necessary but not sufficient condition to copy . After all,
there are Write Only Memories (WOMs) that are used to store all those
bits that shift off the end of shift registers that nobody wants to
see.

-Roger

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 83 14:18:42-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Vengence of Kahn

     Regarding the title conflicts between TWoK and RotJ and the two
"Casablancas", I'd like to point out that it is not possible to
copyright titles.  Note that both John Varley and Ben Bova have
written books titled "Millenium"...

-- David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                     (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

(P.S. My source for this bit of legal trivia is Vonda McIntyre.)

------------------------------

From: Alan L. Zeichick <G.MAINE=ZEICHICK@BERKELEY>
Subject: Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy

     1. Does everyone know about the HHGTTG records?  I acquired mine
in Britain, but they should be possible to get here.  They are NOT the
original radio series, but an adaptation with the original radio/TV
cast.  They are based more on the books than on the original series.
Still, the records are quite nice.

     The first record is a two-album set, entitled "Hitch-Hikers Guide
to the Galaxy" (1979) and is made and distributed by Original Records,
Ltd., 38 Long Acre Road, London WC2, England UK.  The record number is
'ORA-42'. (Appropriate!)

     The second record is a single album, entitled "The Restaurant at
the End of the Universe" (1979) and is numbered 'ORA-54'.

     The total purchase price for the two was something around 12
pounds U.K, or US$18.  They MAY be possibly available on cassette from
Original Records, Ltd.

     2. Does anyone have the original radio series tape, relatively
complete?  If so, please let me know.

                                      -alan-

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Aug 83 2113-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #61
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 61

Today's Topics:
                Books - Issac Asimov & Harry Harrison,
          Film - Star Trek and The Star Wars Series (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Aug 83 11:25:47 CDT
From: King Ables <ables@utexas-11>
Subject: re: "Victory Unconditional" coming from "I Robot"

     I am forwarding this message from a friend of mine at work.  If
there are any replies, I will, of course, forward them back to the
appropriate party.  -ka (ables@utexas-11, ...nbires!ut-ngp!ables)

-----

" There is a story "Victory Unconditional" (?) in I, ROBOT (first
collection of Asimov's robot stories), in which three Terran robots
descend to Jupiter's surface and, just by being themselves, thoroughly
cow the imperious Jovians.  It's a final solution to the problem of
the first story, rather than a follow-up of the solution."

     There is no such story in the book I,ROBOT by Asimov. Rather than
being a collection of short stories it is really a cohesive history
about the development of robots from the simple non-speaking variety
to the most human in appearance. This is not the first time this
particular book has been misrepresented, even though it is such a
classic robot novel. I recall an article I read in Newsweek about
computer wiz-kids, it said the book was about a society where
computers were so dominant that the people forgot simple math - not
even close!  Perhaps it is being confused with another book of similar
title, I am not familiar with the particular short story mentioned.

                                 Judy

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 83 10:35:34 EDT (Thursday)
Subject: Transatlantic inconsistencies
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Parc-Maxc.ARPA>

"Why shouldn't people drink sherry?  Sherry is produced in the Xeres
region of Spain (hence its name).  If Spain were Moslem, there would
be no sherry, since the Quran prohibits the manufacture and use of
alcoholic beverages."

     Just because the Quran prohibits this, doesn't mean that people
wouldn't make and use them (people still use opiates in the US, the
cultivation and processing of which is illegal in Thailand and
Turkey).  Sherry could be a famous bootleg liquor, probably overrated
because of its mystique.

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Aug 83 11:31 EDT
From: Steve Platt <Platt%UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Star Trek transporter

     Somewhere in my distant past I remember reading stories which
transported not by disassembling and reassembling matter, but just by
shifting the probabilities of location of the constituent (sub-)atomic
particles to the "desired" location.  No copying, just a legitimate
"move".  Focusing the "realigned probabilities" can be done in any of
the manners previously mentioned; again, the matter is moved as a
single chunk.  If the dice roll off the table... well, we saw that in
ST:TMP...

or...  Star Trek IV: Return of the Fly
        with William Shatner, DeForest Kelly, Vincent Price,
             the holograms of Leonard Nimoy, Alec Guiness, Frank Oz...

     A side note: this mechanism is universal in the sense that it
also creates the tractor beam ("you want to be closer... you want to
be closer"), force field ("go away!"), etc.

-steve
platt.upenn@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 83 14:42:46-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ST II & SW VI - (nf)

     But the first working title was "Revenge of the Jedi", would you
care to see my button??

                Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 83 12:04:56-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: LIMITING FACTORS IN SW/ESB/ROTJ DISCUSSIONS

     Why are people trying to make the Star Wars universe coherent?
Because it's fun!  You point out the Baker Street people's attempts to
resolve the Holmes bugs.  This is a game that lots of people play with
imaginative literature.  OF COURSE we know that the reason that X is
inconsistent with Y is "the writer wasn't thinking about Y when he
wrote X."  But the universe in question (whether Holmes' London, or Oz
(FULL of wonderful holes to play with), or a galaxy far, far away) is
sufficiently appealing that we find it more fun to "play in that
universe" by trying to force it to make some kind of sense [btw, read
Fredric Brown's "What Mad Universe" for a humorous story of someone
who really ends up in a pulp-magazine SF world].  Tolkien's entire
universe sprang from this kind of play, of course.  "Unfinished Tales"
shows Tolkien in his last years trying to come up with a coherent
explanation of Galadriel and her place in the history of Middle-Earth,
though he hadn't completely worked this out when "Lord of the Rings"
was written.

     Imperial Armor dates from the days of the Republic and was
excellent at repelling the blasts of a now-obsolete variety of
blaster.  Galactic paperwork being what it is, the Imperials haven't
managed to retool their armories with anything that effectively blocks
the new Mark VII blasters that the well-financed Rebellion uses.  Or
something.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 83 8:42:19-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!kdh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: What's that he always carries?

     Lest this group wither away until the next installment in the
series...

     What is/are that/those things which Chewbacca always carries
slung over his shoulder (you know, the silver boxes fastened to the
strap).  Are they weapons? food? what? (I've never seen him use them
for anything)

                           Curious,
                           Kevin Hunter
                           houti!kdh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Aug 83 0910-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #62
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 20 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 62

Today's Topics:
             Books - Isaac Asimov (2 msgs) & David Brin &
                       A General Book Message,
                          Magazines - F&SF,
             Discussion - Alternate Universes & The SCA,
           Records - The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy,
                     Film - Star Trek (2 msgs) &
                              Star Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1983 2242-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Asimov's "Victory Unconditional"

     This story is in THE REST OF THE ROBOTS, a collection basically
inferior to I, ROBOT, but still containing some interesting stories.

     I, ROBOT was no more developed as a coherent whole originally
than was the so-called FOUNDATION TRILOGY.  Both were groups of
related short stories (The Foundation ones more serial than the
others) which were later connected and put into books.

                        Janice

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 83 01:40:47 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Victory Unintentional

     "Victory Unintentional" (not Unconditional) is contained in THE
REST OF THE ROBOTS.  I assume that it is also in the book THE COMPLETE
ROBOT since that contains all his robot stories (up until 1982, when
it was published).  The story mentioned about reinventing math is
called "The Feeling of Power" collected in NINE TOMORROWS.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1983 22:54:17-PDT
From: John L. Romkey <romkey@MIT-CSR>
Subject: Startide Rising

     Recently I was wandering around trying to find "White Gold
Wielder" in paperback because someone mentioned that it was out. I
never found it (which is just as well because I didn't really want to
get depressed again), but I did find "Startide Rising" by David Brin,
which had also been mentioned recently.

     "Startide Rising" takes place hundreds of years in the future.
Mankind has "uplifted" dolphins and chimpanzees into sentience, and
has found (or been found by) other races in the galaxy. These races
are called the "Galactics", and some have been around for billions of
years. Galactics have a habit of uplifting presentient species,
genetically modifying them to suit their (the Galactics') own needs,
and then indenturing them for millions of years to pay back the favor.
The race which does the uplifting is the "patron" and the uplifted
race the "client".

     There is a considerable amount of tension over the fact that
humans seem to have no patron, and a number of Galactics would like to
change that.  Of course, we have other ideas. Unlike Galactics, we did
not indenture dolphins or chimpanzees. Instead, they have become a
part of the culture, though at times there is still some amount of
"racism".

     The starship Streaker has a crew of ~150 dolphins, 7 humans and 1
chimpanzee, and made a most fascinating discovery. In fact, the
Galactics are so interested in it that zillions of them come trying to
wrest the secrets of the discovery away from Streaker, and it detours
to the world of Kithrup for repairs while trying to avoid the
Galactics. And I think that much more information would constitute a
spoiler.

     I thought "Startide Rising" was one of the freshest books I've
read in ages. It's great! The characterization and plot were both very
well done, and all of the characters seemed quite real, even human.
There were several sources of tension throughout the book, and they
were well handled. The contrast between Galactics and humans (and
humans' clients (and "current" humans, though not mentioned
explicitly)) was interesting and well handled.

     I recommend it. It was a more than ample replacement for WGW
(which I still haven't found). And anyone who thinks that SF name
space is exhausted should take a look at the book.

        - John Romkey
          romkey@mit-csr

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 83 15:13:37-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!markb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Looking for book info

     1. The Best One Hundred Short Short Science Fiction stories was
        co-edited by Asimov and Conklin.

     2. I think Ferdinand Feghoot stories appear in Fantasy and
        Science Fiction Magazine.

     3. I don't remember the title to this story but it appears in the
        Randel Garrett Anthology "Takeoff".

                                      Mark Biggar

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 83 14:38:12-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!jeff @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Fantasy & Science Fiction Magazine

     What is the current address of Fantasy & Science Fiction
Magazine, and its cost?  Please mail to me direct and I will post to
the net if anyone else who does not already know is interested.

      Jeffrey Kegler, CCI Office Systems Division
      ...{allegra,seismo,mcnc,lime,we13,brl-bmd}!rlgvax!jeff

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 83 20:06:39-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxm!gjphw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: alternate universes

     This personal note is in reply to a query sent by G. Skinner to
net.physics seeking comments about the prospects for the existence of
alternate universes.  He seemed to be asking for the opinion of
physicists (eh?).  Almost at the same time that this challenge
appeared, R. Forward posted an article in this news group listing
several references that discuss alternate universes and quantum
mechanics by a few practicing physicists.  My degree says physics but
my specialty is thermodynamics.  I have not read any of the references
given in the Forward article, but I thought that I might launch into
the melee.

     Alternate universes are not standard topics for consideration in
the graduate education of physicists.  In fact, more than three
spatial dimensions are not covered in graduate school.  Only recently,
with the introduction of some promising grand unification theories
(GUTs) have more than three dimensions been considered tolerable.

     Science has many explicit and implicit assumptions built into it.
One says that the subject of science, in my case it is physics, is
capable of being understood by the human mind (even though it may only
be collectively).  Another is that the best theories describe the
greatest number of phenomena with the fewest number of assumptions.
This is also known as Occam's razor.  For a successful theory, one
that describes alot without serious violations, the assumptions that
go into that theory are granted ontological status (the belief that
they exist and are worthy of study).

     Alternate universes have not been found necessary for the
description of physical phenomena.  This does not prove that they
don't exist, but merely that they are unnecessary for theory building.
Since they are not used, most physicists (including me) would vote
that alternate universes do not exist.  It may be entertaining to read
stories that use various universes as vehicles for the action or
moral, but there is insufficient motivation to begin a search for any
alternate universe.  Whether or not our existence is the alternate
universe of someone else's imagination lies completely outside of, and
violates another assumption of, physical science.

     And now, I return to my ivory tower....

                                       Patrick Wyant
                                       Bell Labs (Naperville, IL)
                                       *!ihuxm!gjphw

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 83 4:23:16-PDT (Fri)
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: #3, SCA Heralds - (nf)

     It is true, in the SCA no-one HAS to fight.  Non-fighters cannot
become knights, or become King, but they can achieve just about
anything else within the SCA.

     As for youngsters, there are many jobs to be done at a tourney
that teen-agers can handle.  Find someone doing something interesting
and say "Can I help?".  Possibilities include assisting the heralds in
running the Lists, running errands for the Autocrat, fetching entries
(and entrants) for various competitions, watching the REALLY young
people, and myriad other things.  There's lots of fun for all, lest
this sound too much like work.

     Incidentally, the College of Heralds has a formal hierarchical
structure through which one rises by skill, knowledge and you
superiors burning out.  I know, I was Sea-Wolf Herald for the
Principality of the Mists (San Francisco Bay Area) before I burned out
on the political head-games you'll find in any organization bigger
than 3 people.

--Lord Nikolaj Zrogowacialy, OLM, OTD, POG
  Berry Kercheval, BS
  Zehntel Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1983 1923-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: Re: Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy

Address: Kestrel Institute, 1801 Page Mill Rd., Palo Alto, CA  94304
Phone: (415) 494-2233

     I own the HHGttG records.  I bought them for about $16.00 total
at Tower Records, Mountain View.  They were in the comedy record
section.  If you live out on the west coast and Tower doesn't have it
in stock, they can order it for you.

     The records are NOT the original radio show (mostly due to
licensing problems), but are with the same actors and are excerpts and
slightly revised scripts from the originals.

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 83 23:40:07-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Warp drive in Star Trek - (nf)

     If the buffeting of the Enterprise can't reasonably be caused by
external effects, why not make the obvious alternative explanation:
internal effects. Two obvious possibilities: at high warp speeds the
equipment generating the effect vibrate, possibly as a result of
difficulty in synchronization of multiple drives; there may be an
interaction between the effort of achieving a given speed and the
nature of the universe -- pushing the ship harder may result in
discontinuities in position, for instance, or the drive mechanism may
not have time to recycle between jumps at high rates (assuming the
warp occurs in small, discrete jumps).

     Isn't it a little silly, though, to worry about the effects used
in producing a show that long ago? Why not limit technical complaints
to the movies...

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 19 August 1983, 13:19-PDT
From: Reynolds@Rand-unix
Subject: Star Trek

"Date: Tue 16 Aug 83 14:29:07-EDT
From: BARNES%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Re: Warp drive and Star Trek

     "One interesting question that all this does bring up however is
this.  Any racing cyclists out there (or race car drivers) will be
familiar with the idea of traveling very closely behind whoever
happens to be in front of you.  This puts you in his slipstream and
reduces your drag.  If the Enterprise was warping along at high speed
and some Klingon (Cling-On?) was following (or the reverse) would
there be any slipstream affects?  I.e.,. If you let them get too close
does it become easier for them to ride along and catch you further?

Gary"

     Richard Taylor was the Art Director the special effects for Star
Trek: The Motion Picture at Robert Abel and Associates, in the days
before the effects work was moved to Trumbull's company EEG.  Richard
is also an avid surfer.  Some of the detailing on the "Mark 2" (movie
version) Enterprise was based on Richard's image of the ship as a
cosmic surfer, riding the warp in space like an ocean surfer rides a
crest on the water.  This image lead to some of the overall reshaping
of the hull and particularly to the various "skegs" (surfer talk for
fins) at the aft end.

     By the way, they actually got started on time.  Shooting began
last Monday at Paramount on Star Trek 3.  My coworkers and I got the
tour yesterday so we could see our work in use -- we generated many of
the animated graphics used on the display screens of the Enterprise
bridge and other sets.

-Craig Reynolds

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Aug 83 21:57:59 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-bmd>
Subject: Star Wars Discussion

     OK GUYS, as long as we're getting nit-picky and since it popped
up again for the zillionth time:

     This complaint has has nothing to do with Lucas or the production
of the movie, but rather with the nomenclature used by people on
SF-LOVERS when discussing the finer points of these movies.  The
images of Kenobi, Yoda, and the elder Skywalker that appear after
their physical deaths are NOT holograms (as they have been referred
to).  Holograms are to 3D as photographs are to 2D.  These images are
based on a much older concept.  They are GHOSTS.  I guess the readers
of this digest are just too technical to grasp such simple concepts.
Our laser people tell me that even the projections from Artoo (Leia in
the original movie, Luke in the last movie) aren't really holograms as
we know them either (but I'm willing to let this slip since technology
progresses in unforeseen ways).

-Ron

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Aug 83 2321-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #63
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 63

Today's Topics:
          Books - Isaac Asimov (2 msgs) & John Myers Myers &
                          Paul O. Williams,
           Query - Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Survey,
       Discussion - Science Fact Predicted by Science Fiction &
          Computer Security (2 msgs) & Alternate Universes,
                 Film - Star Trek (2 msgs) & WarGames

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 83 7:09:52-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!utcsstat!laura @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: "Victory Unconditional" coming from "I Robot"

     Victory Unconditional is in my copy of "Eight Stories from the
Rest of the Robots", which is open in my left hand, where I am reading
the title.

Laura Creighton
utzoo!utcsstat!laura

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 83 17:59:15-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!utcsstat!laura @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Asimov's "Victory Unconditional"

     Guess what. It's Victory UNINTENTIONAL. However, I know where the
bad name came from. My table of contents lists "Unconditional".
However, the story itself is marked "Unintentional". Very Strange.

     Sorry for the confusion...

Laura Creighton
utzoo!utcsstat!laura

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 83 7:49:55-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: John Myers Myers

     After reading Silverlock a couple of years ago, I dug around in
the UW library looking to see what else he'd done.  The only other
books which I remember clearly were volumes dealing with the old West
(scholarly works).

------------------------------

Date: 21-Aug-83 19:07 PDT
From: RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3
Subject: New Paul O. Williams book out

     For those who enjoyed the other books in "the Pelbar cycle", The
Breaking of Northwall, The Ends of the Circle, The Dome in the Forest,
and The Fall of the Shell, the fifth book just hit the stands
(paperback, $2.95).  Titled "An Ambush of Shadows", it picks up the
story after a portion of the third book, not the end of the fourth
one.

     The publisher is billing this as "Book Five of..." but it's not
really a series, merely several books all set in the same place at
approximately the same time.  All of them so far have been well worth
reading.

Enjoy,
Rich Zellich

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 83 14:16:14 PDT (Monday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: SF & F Book Survey

     I'm interested in compiling a list of the best Science Fiction
and Fantasy novels OF A PARTICULAR TYPE.  The type of novels I'm
interested in are those novels that you, the SF-LOVERS of America,
feel are novels of Great Literary Merit.  This is not a simple
Vote-For-Your-Favorite-Novel-Of-All-Time.  I would like to know what
everyone considers a work of literary art in the SF & F genres.

     Some examples might be:

"The Left Hand of Darkness", U.K. LeGuin
"The Man in the High Castle," P. Dick
"The King of Elfland's Daughter," Lord Dunsany.

     The question to be answered: Are there any Tolstoys in SFdom?

     Send me a simple list of those novels that you think fit this
criteria.  You may rank them if you wish.  I will compile the entries,
rank them by number of votes, and send the results to SF-LOVERS.

     Deadline for submission of replies will be September 1, 1983.

Thanks Pre Facto,

Commodore Perry
Caro.Pa@PARC-MAXC

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 83 5:49:40-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!cca!ima!inmet!porges @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Science predicted by SF; the respons - (nf)

     In reply to the person who thinks that the film in *The Man Who
Fell to Earth* was an "instant colour film" -- I must be the only
person who looked closely enough to see that the point is that THE
PHOTOGRAPHER IS INSERTED INTO THE PICTURE ALTHOUGH HE/SHE IS BEHIND
THE CAMERA!!!!!  Later in the movie there's a snippet of a commercial
for the product on one of Bowie's many TV screens; the slogan is
"[whateveritscalled] puts YOU in the picture."

                         -- Don Porges
                         ...harpo!inmet!porges
                         ...hplabs!sri-unix!cca!ima!inmet!porges
                         ...yale-comix!ima!inmet!porges

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Aug 83  16:11 EDT
From: SELINGER@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Department of Energy

     Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

     I stand corrected, many times over.  The Dept. of Energy IS
responsible for nuclear weapons, as well as nuclear reactors.

     The point that I was trying to make was, and is, that the
newspaper report really did not go out of its way to distinguish
between what actually happened, and the sort of thing that happened in
Wargames.  A reader could walk away with the impression that the
computer infiltrators had come >that close< to getting hold of some
nuclear weapons and setting them off.  The radio news broadcasts I
heard were even more guilty on this point, only mentioning that the
teenagers HADN'T gotten to any top-secret information, when the truth
was that they COULDN'T get to any, the top-secret computer not having
any dialup lines.

Marla Selinger  [SELINGER@RUTGERS]

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 83 7:28:45-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!ucbesvax.turner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Computer Security

"Re: Speaking of Wargames...

     "Have you heard the latest uproar about the kids who broke into
(among other things) the Los Alamos computer?....

     "Also, one newspaper said that the computer they tapped into was
responsible for overseeing the manufacture of nuclear weapons.
(*Gasp!* go John and Jane Q. Public) WRONG!  Most probably they should
have said "nuclear POWER PLANTS", this being the Department of
Energy's computer!

     "Talk about Freudian slips...or, I guess it's just the sort of
sensationalism the public wants to hear..."

     Just because it's the Department of Energy doesn't mean that it
doesn't do weapons work.  In fact, ALL nuclear weapons work is done
under the auspices of DOE.  Just as it used to be done under the
Atomic Energy Commission, which also did a lot of reactor research.

     An aside: before the Reagan administration dropped their plans to
abolish DOE, they planned to put nuclear weapons under (can you
guess?) the Department of COMMERCE.  (This actually made a bit of
sense: DOC oversees interstate commerce, and it well-positioned to
control and monitor the transportation of nuclear materials.  Only, in
the case of Reagan, it doesn't make sense, given the substantial Mafia
penetration of the trucking industry, and Reagan's cavalier attitude
toward appointing people suspected of links to organized crime.)

        Michael Turner
        ucbvax!ucbesvax.turner

------------------------------

Date: Sat 20 Aug 83 20:20:19-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Parallel Worlds Defended

     Should we look for Parallel Worlds?

     Sorry, folks, I cannot let the nonsense (as I believe it) from
Patrick Wyant go unanswered.

     Occam's principle (Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter
necessitatem) applies to principles of explanation, ie scientific
hypotheses or theories.  Such theories are constructions of the human
mind: they are more noumena than phenomena.  The idea of arbitrarily
postulating parallel words is silly: if they exist, they are not
theories but facts.

     The point at issue is this: of the many explanations of our
present body of observations, are some simpler than others?  Certainly
so - Newton's theories are simpler than those of Copernicus,
Einstein's simpler than Newton's (in the sense of making fewer
postulates) and so on.  In my judgment, the 'Relative State' theories
of quantum phenomena are genuinely simpler than most others, in
requiring fewer postulates.

     Now, if simpler theories in some way compel our conditional
belief, we should believe also in their consequences - even those that
happen never yet to have been observed.  One of the consequences of
the relative state theories is the existence (prediction, conjecture
or whatever) of parallel worlds.  They exist in the equations, which
for me is sufficient reason to want to look for them.

     An a close parallel, consider Dirac's quantum field theory, and
its construction (if you will) of the electron.  The equations had two
solutions, one describing electrons and another describing absurd
particles with the mass of the electron but exactly opposite charge.
The equations are plausible because they explain our observations, and
credible because of their simplicity and elegance, so it is not
sensible to complain that physics has got by until 1925 without having
to postulate weird new particles: they are there in the equations,
and, as Yukawa subsequently found, they are there in the universe.

     (By the way, if physicists today REALLY think there are only
three dimensions, then they know less than Archimedes)

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Aug 83 23:56:35 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-bmd>
Subject: STAR TREK ENGINE SHAKE

     The thing I never figured out from watching the TV shows is how a
ship that is motionless in space can list thirty degrees.

-Ron

------------------------------

From: Alan L. Zeichick <G.MAINE=ZEICHICK@BERKELEY>
Subject: ST Transporter
Date: August 16, 8:41 AM

     One argument against being transported--possibility of glitch.
Assume that the transporter scans and records the position of all
atoms, all energy levels, even all quark positions (and quarks are
involved, according to "Spock Must Die").  It then transmits this
information someplace else.  What would be the possibility of only one
crackle of static in the transmission?  Of one binary bit being lost?

     Considering the tremendous amount of information being
transmitted, the probability of a 'mutation' must be tremendous.  No
wonder "Bones" didn't like to have his atoms strewn over the known
universe...

     It is odd that in the first ST movie, when the technological
gains were evident everywhere, that they had a fatal transporter
accident.  In the 5-year mission, even with inferior equipment and
emergency repairs, nobody was every hurt...

-alan-

Why make the ST world coherent?  'cause its fun!

------------------------------

Date: 19 August 1983 03:27 edt
From: TMPLee.DODCSC at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Query -- Public Reaction to WarGames

     It is with some trepidation that I send this, but here goes.
Does anyone know of any public opinion polls that were done in the
wake of the movie WarGames?  Some of you may know that back in about
1978 the Lou Harris organization, under the direction of Prof. Alan
Westin of Columbia did an opinion poll that discovered that 54% of the
sample felt computers were a threat to their privacy and that 63% of
them felt that their security was so poor that future use of computers
should be curtailed. (The study has many more details, such as
breaking the poll down between the hoi polloi and those who knew
something about computers and those who were executives (which may or
may not have known about computers.)

     Anyway, I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who
knows POSITIVELY of any such opinion polls conducted in the wake of
WarGames to see whether the public felt more or less (presumably)
comfortably about computer security as a consequence of it.

     Please reply to me directly.  I do NOT, repeat, do NOT want
comments of any sort about the movie itself, merely whether anyone
knows and can report on any valid study of public opinion about
computer security.  I also do NOT want anything about arms control,
the liklihood of accidental nuclear war (unless it involves a failure
of computer security).

Thanks all

#Ted Lee

p.s. -- this is also being sent to some addressees that won't show up
in the header fields; privacy and security, you know.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Aug 83 0759-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #64
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Aug 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 64

Today's Topics:
             Discussion - Alternate Universes (2 msgs) &
                      Computer Security (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 1983 17:49:46 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Jon McCombie <jmccombi@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: numbering alternate universes

     A friend of mine, Mike Davis, proposes the following method of
numbering multiple universes.  I submit it for our collective
consideration.

     "At virtually every point in time, some event is occurring which
can be represented as a binary decision.  Every time such a decision
is made, new universes are made, one for each possible outcome of the
decision.

     "For example (though this particular one need not necessarily
have occurred), when God/Creator/Supreme Being was deciding to make
humans, S/He could have made them in His/Her image, or the image of
His/Her brother Fred.  One universe (or set of universes, perhaps) has
humans in God's image, the other in the image of Fred.

     "Each universe, then, can be described by the unique bit stream
which describes the yes/no decisions which went into making the
universe."

     Unfortunately, that makes for universe whose descriptive numbers
are infinitely long.  Then again, this is a necessity in this
description, in which there are an infinite number of alternate
universes.

Enjoy,
Jon

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 83 19:58:21-PDT (Tue)
From: 750a Ops <ops.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: alternate universes

     I haven't tossed in my two cents worth until now because I
happened to be in the middle of an "alternate universe" novel.  It's
called THE BURNING MOUNTAIN and it's by Alfred Coppel (my copy is
hardcover, Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich).  The premise is that the
first atom bomb test in July 1945 fails, because the test tower is
struck by lightning and so the planned invasion of Japan is carried
out.  As an alternate universe story, it suffers a little from being
too close to the "decisive event," so we don't get to see the long
term consequences.  It is a very readable book and should be of
interest to military and (alternate) history buffs.

     A question for the network mind: As I began this book, something
in the murky bogs at the back of my mind said, "that's true, the tower
was struck by lightning."  Does anyone know (offhand) if I'm correct?
Was the atomic test tower struck by lightning (although not enough to
damage the device)?  If so, Coppel's decisive event becomes merely a
matter of electrical intensity (something to think about).

     Finally a vague word from the opposition point of view.  I begin
by asking any reader to preface each following statement by "I THINK"
since I am not at all sure of my facts.  There is a story written by
(I think) Robert Silverberg which takes the view that the stream of
history is not that easy to divert.  The story is written as a
narration by a time agent of some kind and tells about the recruitment
of one of their agents.  These agents, who are known as "snakes" are
people snatched out of time just before they die and the tale is told
about one recruit who set out to keep himself from being murdered (by
a irate wife I believe).  Well everything he tries fails and so he
resigns himself to becoming a snake.  It's an interesting story and
takes a radically different view from the standard: time-traveller
squishes bug by mistake in 3 million B.C. and so the world as we know
it vanishes in a puff of temporal smoke.  I've got this story at home
(somewhere), so I'll pass the title along later.  All you Silverberg
buffs out there are invited to name it out of hand.

/tlj

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 83 17:27:00 EDT
From: GARFINKEL@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: public concern over computer security

     The Washington Post had a very good editorial Sunday dealing with
the upswing of public concern over computer security in a manner that
should be appreciated.  I wish that I had a copy of it to reproduce
here.  The author, in response to the multitude of stories about young
hackers breaking into this or that system, points out that such deeds
are basically rites-of-passage much as hotwiring cars used to be.  The
general public panics only because they don't realize exactly how
simple it is in some cases and how literally impossible it is in
others.  The point is clearly made that in all cases only non-secure
computers have phone connections to begin with and that those
computers which are easily broken into are in such a state due to the
foolishness of their owners/operators who only get what they deserve
for being so lax (after all, how many years have WE been aware that
this is possible and indeed happens).  The editorial was extremely
well written (including many examples of how in virtually all colleges
many people believe themselves SO clever for being able to break into
or crash a computer) and done in such a way that I believe would cause
Joe Public to start regarding the whole thing in the same light as
kids "borrowing" a car to go hotrodding after the owner left the keys
in it.  It was a good example of how good use of persuasive writing
techniques can go both ways and I for one appreciated it.  I wish that
I could remember some of the several other good points which were made
or reproduce the craftsmanship.  Anyone out there have a copy which
you would type in?

                           Mark
                           GARFINKEL@RUTGERS.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 83 11:57-EST (Tue)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: L.A.U.R.E.N

     Lauren Weinstein's comments made the NYT last Sunday. His
comments appeared at the end of an article about the Sloan computer
break-in.  (a Vax running VMS. The users snarfed terminal lines and
ran a dummy log-in to steal passwords. <I saw this done more
effectively 10 years ago when the first intelligent terminals came
out>)

     Anyway, Nice to see that all that flaming that Lauren did in here
finally made it to the press. If only 3 sentences.

                                - steve

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Aug 83 2352-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #65
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 25 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 65

Today's Topics:
                    Administrivia - Net.SF-Lovers,
           Books - Isaac Asimov (2 msgs) & Harry Harrison &
             Robert A. Heinlein & Fritz Leiber (4 msgs) &
            Justin Leiber & Larry Niven & J.R.R. Tolkien,
                 Notice - Forthcoming Book Releases,
                   Query - Best SF & F Short Works,
              Books - David Brin (semi-spoiler warning)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 23:42:32 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Administrivia--Net.SF-Lovers

     I have been asked (by one of our Faithful Readers) to inform
those that do not know, that some of the items posted on SF-LOVERS
also automatically get posted to NET.SF-LOVERS.

Enough said,

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 83 18:34:34-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: "Victory Unconditional" coming from "I Robot"

     I remember the title as "Victory Unintentional" but, Laura, if
you had the book open in your hand....

--
        Mark Callow, Saratoga, CA.
        ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!
                      ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc
        decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1983 12:52:29-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Isaac Asimov

     The original segmentation of I, ROBOT is visible in any good copy
because the copyright page lists the original publication of all the
stories, in a period spanning most of the 40's. As it happens, this
shows that they were published in virtually the order in which they
appear in the book; THE REST OF THE ROBOTS has a scattering of stories
from all over the 40's which didn't fit as well into the Susan Calvin
chronicles. I get the impression that Asimov was enough of a
self-starter even then that he didn't need to be prodded, cf Anne
McCaffrey's descriptions of Campbell getting another dragon story out
of her by saying, every time she comes up with a new gimmick, "Yes,
but then what?"

     Aside from possible contraband from Spain, I neglected to note
that sherry could easily come from a number of other locations; in our
universe sherry is also prepared in New York (frequently bad) and
California (some quite good). I also suspect that anything less than a
fanatic Moslem regime might tolerate export-only alcoholic
beverages---analogize to the frequently commercial orientation of the
Catholic church at a similar age, or to the number of vintners that
survived our Prohibition by making ostensibly sacramental wines.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1983 12:52:29-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Harry Harrison

     Aside from possible contraband from Spain, I neglected to note
that sherry could easily come from a number of other locations; in our
universe sherry is also prepared in New York (frequently bad) and
California (some quite good). I also suspect that anything less than a
fanatic Moslem regime might tolerate export-only alcoholic
beverages---analogize to the frequently commercial orientation of the
Catholic church at a similar age, or to the number of vintners that
survived our Prohibition by making ostensibly sacramental wines.

     I seem to recall that in our universe mineral oil was more
popular as lubricant than as fuel for several decades, I think because
it didn't seem abundant enough to burn. Certainly oil was struck all
over Pennsylvania in the 1820's-30's (? certainly before 1860) but
wood was still a major power source through the Civil War, especially
for steamships. But we may be dragging this too far; it's one thing to
try to systematize a serious universe, but (knowing Harrison) I don't
think A TRANSATLANTIC TUNNEL, HURRAH! was intended to be seriously
crafted.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 83 20:04:54-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tech @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN

     I find I like Heinlein's early stuff but somewhere around
Podkayne of Mars he started to fall down.  He went 180 degrees farther
right while becoming more interested in sex and libertarianism.

     I found I no longer liked them.  I tend to be a pervert but his
sexual tastes were too much for me.  I lean to the left - common in
Europe, occasionally seen in Canada and unheard of in the USA - and he
just went too far the other way for me.

     Stranger in a Strange Land had its moments however.

     Time Enough for Love was a total loss.

Richard Loken

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1983 12:45:49 EDT (Wednesday)
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Change Wars, by Fritz Leiber

     The story referred to by "/tlj" (ops.uci @ Rand-Relay) as
possibly by Silverberg is actually one of the stories in the "Change
War" series by Fritz Leiber, which includes the novel "The Big Time",
and a number of shorter works which were recently re-issued as the
book "Change War".  The "war" is a conflict between two sides of
history-changers, the Snakes and the Spiders.  I don't remember the
title of the specific story mentioned, but it's either the first or
second story in the collection.  Both books are highly recommended.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Aug 83 14:00 EDT
From: Dennis Rockwell <drockwel@BBN-VAX>
Subject: Leiber, NOT Silverberg

     The story is "Try and Change the Past", by Fritz Leiber,
currently collected in "Changewar", a rather good book.  The "snakes"
and "spiders" are the two sides in an eternal war, with each side
trying to undermine the other in the past.  In these stories, you
*never* see anything close to the big picture of the conflict, just a
set of vignettes in various times and places.

------------------------------

Date: 24 August 1983 18:05 edt
From: Spratt.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: The Change War, by Fritz Leiber

     Fritz Leiber wrote a series of stories known as the Change War
stories.  I have these stories in two places; one is a book called
"The Big Time", the other is in the collection called "The Best of
Fritz Leiber".  There may be a book titled "The Change War". The basic
situation of the change war is that there are two sides, the snakes
and the spiders. Each is trying to change the past to eliminate the
other side (entirely or just in part). It is extremely difficult to
make changes in the past which "the universe" won't adjust for so as
to leave "the universe" unaltered after the changed event. No one
knows where the two sides came from originally, and there are no
categorical differences between the sides.  They are both vicious and
greedy, venal in the extreme.  People are forced to join a side, given
death as their only alternative (what happens with respect to a
recruit's death is one of Leiber's many interesting inventions).

     A fascinating and depressing milieu.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 19:39:55 PDT (Wed)
From: 750a Ops <ops.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: I Stand Corrected

     Yes! Yes! Yes! The story IS "Try and Change the Past" by Fritz
Leiber!  My copy of this story appears in an anthology edited by
Silverberg, hence my (characteristic) confusion.  That's what I like
about the net. You can give it the vaguest recollection of a story and
it will return title, author, publisher and whether or not it's
currently in print.  Thanks also for the other titles I will check
them out and of course my most profound apologies to Fritz Leiber.

tom johnson (tlj)
<ops.uci@rand-relay>

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 18:58:38 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Justin Leiber--Beyond Rejection

     Now that we are on the subject of Fritz Leiber, I thought I'd
interject a query regarding his son--Justin Leiber.

     Justin Leiber is a Professor (of either English, Philosophy or
Political Science--at a Texas University, if my memory serves me
right).  Some years back (two or three), he wrote a book called BEYOND
REJECTION (it was published by Del Rey Books), which was billed as the
first part of a trilogy.

     This book was quite strange, but quite enjoyable (I can't give
any details on the plot, my memory is hazy and my books are packed for
Moving Day next week!).  Justin also wrote a story with Fritz called
"Catch That Zepplin", which appeared in The Magazine of Fantasy and
Science Fiction about seven years ago.  This was a good story--very
amusing and fast-moving, and also fits into our current discussion on
alternate universes.  I recommend it to those that can find it.

     If anyone has any more information on Justin, what he's up to,
and what happened to the other two books of the "Rejection" (for lack
of a better name) trilogy, I'd appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks,

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 83 16:16:26-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!sdchema!bam @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re:  Niven

     I've read most of Niven`s work and have enjoyed most of it
thoroughly.  There is one I`ve missed.  In it he discusses in detail
the concept of his skin tight vacuum suit.

     If anyone could let me know which book of his elaborates on this,
please let me know.

Thanks,

Bret Marquis
sdcsvax!sdchema!bang!bam
bam@NOSC

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 83 16:22:15-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!philabs!urban @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: LOTR and Proudfeet

     Well, the name "Gamgee", at least, has a known derivation;
Tolkien derived it from something called Gamgee-cotton (invented by
one S. Gamgee) which was/is apparently some type of surgical cotton.
Believe this is in Carpenter's biography of JRRT and probably also in
the "Letters".

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 83 14:06:50-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!perelgut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Upcoming Books

     The following information is abstracted from the August '83 LOCUS
magazine.  Once again, I highly recommend this to anyone who wants to
know what is going on professionally in SF.

------------------------------

     Phantasia Press is planning 5 books for Worldcon next month:

C.J. Cherryh        Forty Thousand In Gehenna

Philip Jose Farmer  The Gods Of Riverworld
                    River of Eternity

Isaac Asimov        The Robots Of Dawn

L. Sprague de Camp  Bones of Zora

Del Rey

September:

Simak           Where Evil Dwells

May             The Golden Torc

Williams        Ambush of Shadows

Anthony         Dragon on a Pedestal

Williamson      Manseed

Lanier          Menace Under Marswood

November:

Asimov          Foundation's Edge

December:

Pohl            Starburst

de Camp         The Unbeheaded King

HARDCOVERS:

Brunner         A Crucible of Time

Anthony         On a Pale Horse                 (September)

McCaffery       Moreta, Dragonlady of Pern      (November)

Niven           The Integral Trees              (spring)

Pohl            Heechee Rendezvous              (spring)

DAW

September:

Bradley         Thendara House

Kapp            Cageworld                       (4 book series)

Lee             Anackrie

Purtill         The Mirror Of Helen

October:

Trebor          An X-T Called Stanley

Stone           Cheon Of Weltanland     (first of a new erotic series)

November:

van Vogt        ComputerWorld

Tor Books

September:

Saberhagen      A Century of Progress

October:

Anderson        Time Patrol Man

November:

Saberhagen      The Second Book of Swords

Ing             Single Combat

December:

Reynolds        Chaos in Lagrangia

Silverberg      Across a Billion Years

     Also, there are literally tons of reprints coming out at higher
prices so buy them now, or be prepared.  And watch out, the neat
looking new book you buy might be an old story in a new cover and
price.

--

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Group
University of Toronto
{ linus, ihnp4, allegra, floyd }!utcsrgv!perelgut

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1983 08:37-EST
From: Joseph.Ginder@CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA
Subject: Best SF & F Short Works

     I'd like to find out people's opinions about the best SF & F
less-than-novel-length works.  (Ie. short stories, novellas, whatever)
This is a request in the same spirit as Perry's request for opinions
on novels.  I'll also collect, record, and submit what I find out to
sf-lovers.  (Wow, am I going to get a lot of mail...)

--Joe Ginder

P.S.  If the mail address in the header above doesn't work for you,
try ginder@cmuc.arpa or joseph.ginder@cmua.arpa.  Happy mailing!

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
book STARTIDE RISING, by David Brin, for people who have not read the
book.

     However, read it anyway, you'll enjoy it!

     Forewarned is forearmed.

Sincerely,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 83 13:52:35-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.pur-phy!dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Startide Rising (semi-spoiler)

     David Brin's newest (second) book is called Startide Rising and
the only word I have for it is stunning.  It is set in the same
universe as Sundiver (his 1st book) only a couple of hundred years in
the future.  All of the strange aliens that we only get a glimpse of
in Sundiver are back in force and we see a lot more of their
personalities (?)  as well as understanding more of Brin's galactic
history.

     For those of you who haven't read Sundiver, the galaxy is filled
with intelligent races; some old and some new.  The way of the
universe is that older races find pre-sentient races and lend them a
hand on the road to becoming a spacefaring race.  Of course, it is
only fitting that the "patron" race should expect a few hundred
thousand years of servitude from the "client" race.  If fact, the
galactic races are so enthralled with this method of "uplift" that
they can't imagine intelligence arising any other way.

     Enter humans.  A race that actually evolved intelligence!!!  To
beat that, before the Galactics contact them they've already got
client races of their own (certain Earth mammals).  Humans run against
almost every grain of galactic logic (don't they always.)  So into an
incredibly advanced and jealous universe comes the Human race.  O.k.,
that sets the universe and both Sundiver and Startide involve how
Humans go around screwing up the Galactics.

     Sundiver set the stage for Startide, but they are both very
separate books and the thing that I really enjoyed about Startide was
the humor it has.  The aliens appear very, very deadly but some of the
things they do are so bizarre.  From the start of the book it is made
clear to the gentle reader that somewhere in the most thrilling parts
of the book suddenly a funny sentence will appear.  This might appear
a rather silly thing for an author to do but Brin's characters set the
pace by making wise-cracks and teasing all the way through the story
(there is even a sarcastic computer.)

     The technology presented in the book is also very rich.  The
reader is not bombarded with heavy science talk, but the multitude of
little comments the author makes about gravitonics or probability
drives or about beings able to ripe the fabric of the universe apart
are intriguing and satisfying.

     The bottom line is "read this book".  It's going to a serious
contender for a Hugo.

                           D. Bartholomew

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Aug 83 2239-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #66
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 25 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 66

Today's Topics:
          Film - The Star Wars Series & DUNE & Liquid Sky &
                   Metalstorm & Star Trek (2 msgs),
             Discussion - Alternate Universes (2 msgs) &
         Computer Security & Inventions in SF & Transporters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:25:00 PDT (Wed)
From: 750a Ops <ops.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Imperial Armor in Star Wars

     I agree with the previously expressed opinion that resolving Star
Wars (Star Trek, Sherlock Holmes, etc.,etc.) bugs is fun and good
light mental exercise.  And since this question of the useless armor
seems to be one of the big bugs of SW, here is the (read: my) final
word on the subject.

     Imperial Combat Armor is a self contained life-support/
environmental system, protecting the wearer against all chemical and
biological weapons and all types of dangerous radiation.  It is also
proof against all hand/tentacle/ pseudopod-held edged weapons and
missile weapons with a terminal velocity of less than (CLASSIFIED)
meters per second.  Although the armor is not proof against point
blank fire by energy weapons.  It is resistant to energy weapons fired
at a deflection angle of (CLASSIFIED) degrees and is proof against
energy weapons fired a deflection angle of greater than (CLASSIFIED)
degrees.

     To compare, the steel helmet worn almost universally by combat
forces of this planet is not proof against bullets, bomb splinters or
shrapnel (sp?)  or any of the other deadly missiles one is liable to
encounter on the battle- field.  It is resistant to the by-products of
explosions (dirt, rocks, wood splinters, etc.) and (and this is the
important part!) it's better than nothing.  (It also keeps the rain
off.)  Body armor is not worn on Earth today because the price one
pays in maneuverability is no where near worth what one gets back in
protection (even so, "flak jackets" are issued here and there around
the world).  Maybe the trade-off is worth it to the Imperials.

     AND!  Has anyone actually seen Imperial armor that had been
penetrated by energy weapons? (I seem to recall some Ewok arrows
getting through, but those are missiles.)  How do we know that the
stormtroopers felled by Luke, Han and Company are actually dead and
not merely wounded or even stunned by blaster fire?  Granted this
would be less than ideal, but as I stated above, it could be better
than nothing.

     Thanks for letting me ramble-on on a trivial subject.

tom johnson (tlj)
<ops.uci@rand-relay>

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 83 19:56:29-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!brad @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dune Movie

     This month's issue of "Mediascene Preview" has an article on the
Dune movie.

              b**2
              (Brad Balfour)
              {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!brad  (uucp)
              brad.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay        (arpanet)
              brad@umcp-cs                   (CSNet)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1983 10:32:48 EDT (Wednesday)
From: Jon McCombie <jmccombi@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Movie: LIQUID SKY (NO SPOILER)

From NEW YORK, 15 August 83
Movies/David Denby

     "LIQUID SKY, the low-budget triumph of the year, is a
science-fiction fantasy with a wonderfully smutty premise: unseen
aliens, searching for heroin, land in their tiny flying saucer on the
roof of a downtown apartment building and attach themselves to
Margaret (Anne Carlisle), a New Wave fashion model whose friends use
lots of smack.  But the aliens, it turns out, are greedy; they also
want a euphoria-inducing chemical secreted by the brain during orgasm,
a chemical somewhat similar to heroin.  Since Margaret, a wanly
beautiful decedent with spiky hair, is constantly besieged by seducers
and rapists of both sexes, she produces a lot of chemicals for the
aliens; when her pursuers make love to her, they suddenly
dematerialize in an explosion of iridescent orange-green-blue tone.
Margaret, beginning to enjoy her power, becomes an avenger; by the end
she has killed off all her lovers and tormentors, and she ascends to
heaven in a flying saucer.  . . .

     "Superbly photographed by Yuri Neyman, LIQUID SKY offers us a New
York in which somber insurance towers and the Empire State Building
glow against turquoise or lavender skies like the coldly monumental
peaks of a comic-book planet. Anne Carlisle, the queen of this
gleaming star, has the nearly transparent blondness of David Bowie in
THE MAN WHO FELL TO EARTH.  In the ultimate androgynous triumph, she
plays a sullen male model as well as Margaret, and thus gets the
chance to make love to herself, with spectacular results.  LIQUID SKY
has got to be the funniest, craziest, dirtiest, most perversely
beautiful science-fiction movie ever made."

     The review above says it all (but I'm not so sure about
"funniest, craziest, ...").  I liked it, but my taste in films is
somewhat non-standard.  Warning: the film is rated "R", not because of
frontal nudity (there is none), but because of the violence of some of
the scenes (e.g.  there is one rape scene -- short but rather
violent).  This movie is similar in many ways to THE MAN WHO FELL TO
EARTH.  If you didn't like that movie, or the violence of the punk
scene really turns you off, don't waste your time with this one.

     It's playing now in Boston at the Nickelodeon Cinema.  This movie
seems to be fairly popular -- on a Tuesday night, it was sold out 15
mins before show time.  Get there early if you want a seat.

Enjoy,

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Aug 83 11:17:53 PDT
From: Frank Heath <heath@UCLA-ATS>
Subject: Metalstorm

     I saw the movie Metalstorm, the destruction of Jered-Syn, last
weekend and to be brief I thought it stunk.  It is a 3-D Sci Fi
Western.  I think they must have blown their budget on the 3-D process
and had nothing left over for writers, etc.  Most of the action
consists of armored dune buggy chases reminiscent of Road Warrior but
not nearly as gripping.  Not worth a spoiler though the LA Times had
some good words for it.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 83 14:48:47-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!israel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Star Trek quote

>From the Washington Post, Sunday August 21, 1983, Show section.  Used
without permission.

>From Paramount Pictures President Michael Eisner:

Will there be a "Star Trek IV"?  Paramount's Eisner said, "It's
inevitable.  Hopefully, we'll be talking about 'Star Trek 28' while
I'm in my wheelchair."

--

~~~ Bruce
Computer Science Dept., University of Maryland
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel.umcp-cs@Udel-Relay (Arpanet)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 10:54:11-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxw!rtf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Transporters

Alan,

     I must disagree with you.  In "The Enemy Within" Kirk was split
into two halves; evil and good.  It nearly killed him.  This seems
like a more complex and dangerous problem than the one shown in
ST:TMP.

                                        sparrow

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 24 Aug 1983 15:51-PDT
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #64
From: turner@rand-unix

     In response to Jon McCombie's friend Mike Davis's view of
alternate universes:

     The bit string idea simply doesn't work because it assumes the
decisions are the same in all the universes.  Take two universes
identical up to decision N.  Universe A decides "yes" for decision N,
Universe B decides "no".  Quite likely then that decision N+1 will be
different for the two universes.

                        -- Scott Turner
                           turner@rand-unix
                           ...randvax!turner

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Aug 83 14:01 EDT
From: Steve Platt <Platt%UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: (un)countable universes

     Hypothesis: there are more universes than can be counted.

     Assumptions: there is more than one universe; all this talk of
"multiple decision-universes" makes sense.  Every "decision" made by
every particle is discrete (binary, n-ary, etc.  Same thing.)

     1.  The person who proposed this said there are an infinite
number of decisions.  Hence, by Cantor's diagonal argument, it is
possible to show that the number of universes is not countable.
Number each universe as an n-vector <d1 d2 d3 .. d[infinity]>.  It
should be noted that this places the count of universes in 1:1
correspondence with the integers -- a countable infinity.

     Now construct a new universe as follows: d1 is different than d1
of universe 1, d2 is different than d2 of universe 2, etc.  When done,
we have (conceptually) constructed a new universe, one beyond the
"infinite" number we have just dealt with.  Therefore, the number of
universes is not countable, presuming there are an infinite number of
decisions in each.

     Of course, the last sentence is the kicker; it presumes an
infinite (though countable) number of decisions for each.  If this
seems unsatisfactory to you,

     Assumptions: Particles may be discrete, but time and space
aren't.

     2.  This means that while all "decisions" of particles such as
"do I decay now or not" may be representable in a finite or countably
infinite manner, decisions of the form "when do I decay", or in the
case of particle-antiparticle creations, "when, where, at what angle
and velocity do I appear" do not form into a neat countable model.  In
fact, the last problem is uncountable 11 times over (R x R x R x ... x
R x R x R x R)!  (xyz coordinates, time, xyzs velocity, xyz angle
vector).

-----

     Personally, I am part of the one-universe school of thought: if
it can ever reach us or contact us in any manner (or vice versa), it
is part of our universe.

     Should we save some of this for ConStellation?

Yours more in math than physics,

 -steve

platt.upenn@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 24-Aug-83 22:18:49-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: NYT

C'mon, let's be fair about this!  The New York Times article wasn't
specifically interested in "Wargames".  What they were after were some
facts regarding the recent highly publicized computer penetrations.
Their call to me was for some serious discussion of computer security,
not about SF-L (thank goodness).  It was interesting to observe how my
statements were "summarized" in a three line "quote".  Let's just say
that the quote was not completely accurate in several respects, but I
suppose it could have been worse (and, after all, they *did* spell my
name right).

I was impressed with the speed with which the NYT operates on
relatively "non-critical" stories.  The reporter called me at about
1330 PDT last Friday afternoon.  The story actually moved on the
national New York Times newswire around 2200 PDT that evening, I
believe.  Not bad -- rivals the digests!

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 83 12:11:48-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!auvax!tech @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heinlein and predictions in general

     The fact Waldoes now exists by that name brings to mind other
authors using ideas from previous authors and keep the original name.
I recall reading a book - by Kate Wilhelm (sp?) I believe - that
contained Waldoes with no explanations just like they were as common
as bicycles.  Then of course hyperspace seems to show up everywhere
and I have seen the three laws of robotics in several places.

     It would be novel if someone developed fast interstellar travel
and called it hyperspace don't you think?

Thanks Isaac.

Richard Loken

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 83 14:13:22 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Ma Bell and her amazing inventions

     Hi folks. I've been thinking about something that was said here a
couple of weeks ago, about Bell Telephone having probably invented a
tele/transporter. I work in the room that said telephone is in, and I
have come to realize that although I have seen it broken many, many
times, I have never seen it being repaired. Now, I have seen other
phones being repaired, so I am sure that the legend of the Telephone
Repairperson is real and not a myth, but it seems possible that Ma
Bell may be trying to cut down the number of Repairpeople. After all,
if they can make a transporter for coins, why shouldn't the entire
phone be transported back to the Repair station? If another phone is
transported in immediately, with both operations properly
synchronized, no one would really notice.  This way they could cut
down the number of employees they need in the field, which I believe
is a position that commands a very high salary.

     Haven't you ever wondered what that black panel behind the pay
phone is for?????

                               ttfn
                               /amqueue

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Aug 83 2257-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #67
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 25 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 67

Today's Topics:
         Records - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (2 msgs),
                       Discussion - WorldCons,
        Books - Fritz Leiber & "Star Bright" Query (2 msgs) &
                             Larry Niven

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 83 5:40:29-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!cca!ima!inmet!alpert @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)

Alan,

     Attempted to reach you by mail but was unable to, so am posting
this note here hoping you will see it.

---------------------------------------------------------------

     I have the entire original radio series (12 programs) on tape.

     I've also seen the record series at one of the funkier local
record stores (Cambridge, MA), so they are available in this country.

                   -- Bob Alpert
                   -- Intermetrics, Inc.
                      733 Concord Ave.
                      Cambridge, MA 02138

                   ...harpo!inmet!alpert
                   ...hplabs!sri-unix!cca!ima!inmet!alpert
                   ...yale-comix!ima!inmet!alpert

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 13:35:15 PDT (Wed)
From: Hester.UCI@Rand-Relay
Subject: HHGttG Records

     I recently acquired both records described (from the television
adaptation, not the radio series) through an advertisement in a recent
STARLOG magazine.  I have seen the same ad in other issues, and
suspect it is perpetual.  I also recommend the soundtrack of DARK STAR
for fans of that classic.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1983 13:13:12-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: SF fanac around the world (belated answer)

     You comment on the number of US fans who went to SeaCon, but
ignore several key factors: How many Americans went to HeiCon -- the
single example of a WorldCon that was held in a non-English-speaking
country?

     Another factor contributing to some extent to what you term
parochialism is the changes in airline rates.  The discounts we see
here, especially on trips to Europe, are not always equally available
on the other side.

     As you say, there has "been damned little bidding for the
Worldcon from nEsl's", but you're not dealing with the whys and
wherefores of this fact.  Is the nature of Esl fandom sufficiently
different from that in nEsl countries to make the two incompatible?
Is the overall size of Esl fandom (or even just US [+Canadian?] fandom
so great that nEsl sites feel that they have no chance to win a bid?
I dunno, but I suspect that there are a lot of factors that are
affecting this matter.

--Dave Axler

     Certainly Warner is generally more trustworthy than
Moskowitz---but Moskowitz was \there/

     (1) Very few people I know took package tours from the US to
Seacon; judging from my recent investigations, package tours don't
offer anything amenable to convention-going across the Atlantic with
any great savings (the Pacific is another matter). In fact, I think
Noreascon took place while Laker was still flying. Also, package tours
can accommodate groups as small as 25, which could certainly be gotten
together at least in England.

     (2) Income levels are hard to compare, and currency figures of
questionable relevance (at both Seacon and Aussiecon the host
country's money was trading at a several-year high relative to the
dollar).

     (3) My impression, from various reports back to American
publications from European fans attending cons on the continent, is
that continental fandom (at least) tends to be much more sercon than
Esl fandom---Jerucon in particular has advertised as if it were
strongly oriented towards academics, and Brunner has mentioned how the
Eurocon at which he was GoH seemed to expect him to remain aloof.

     Certainly Europe, which in size and population more than matches
the 48 states, doesn't generate as much fan activity; Eurocons are
much smaller than recent Worldcons, and I don't think this reflects
language barriers since most Europeans learn multiple languages when
they're young enough to learn readily.  But this should not cause
diffidence; every foreign bid before 1981 had won (and 1981 might not
have broken the string had it not been for \two/ foreign bids, one of
which necessarily had to lose).

     The publishing situation is similarly unbalanced; many US
magazines are reprinted in other languages, with some fraction of the
contents replaced by local material, but the converse doesn't happen.
And the material that does get translated and published here hardly
rouses enthusiasm for parity.  It is possible to argue major cultural
differences which tend to encourage US domination of SF, starting with
the huge numbers of dime novels and their successor magazines (PERRY
RHODAN in Germany is the only comparable item I know of). The early
history of US fandom, especially those segments out of which many pros
appeared, has its resemblances to student politics in Europe, but
somehow this intense ferment SF doesn't seem to have crossed the
water.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1983 1053-EDT
From: P. David Lebling <PDL@MIT-XX>
Subject: "Spiders and Snakes"

     The alternate history stories with Snakes and Spiders and a
hard-to-alter timestream are of course Fritz Leiber's Change War
stories.  You can now get these in two pb volumes: "The Big Time" (a
novel) and "Changewar" (all the shorts).  Next to "The Man in the High
Castle" these are the best alternate worlds stories around.

        Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 25 Aug 1983 08:23-PDT
Subject: "Star Bright"?
From: turner@rand-unix

     A long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away) I read a short story
with which I was very impressed.  I've been trying to find it ever
since with very little luck.

     The story was title "Star Bright" (I think) and follows is a
short synopsis:

     Star is the daughter of a widower.  She is uncommonly intelligent
for a human being, so much so that she classes humans in to three
groups: Brights (her kind), Tweens (human geniuses) and Stupids (the
rest of the human race).  She arranges to have another "Bright" move
in next door (a boy, slightly older than Star).

     The two of them begin exploring their powers.  They can move
through time by a process that is visualized as enclosing yourself in
a Mobius Strip and twisting it.  The father finds out, and after
sufficient explanation is also able to do this.

     Shortly after this, the two children disappear.  They had been
experimenting with the Mobius Strip process using a tesseract.  The
story ends (hauntingly) with the father trying to duplicate the
process to go to wherever it is that his children went in an attempt
to help her if she's in trouble.  The last line trails off...

     If you can give me a pointer to this story I'd really appreciate
it.  I read it eleven years ago.

                                   -- Scott R. Turner
                                      turner@rand-unix
                                      ...decvax!randvax!turner

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 83 22:49:57 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Star Bright...

     I thought that I would put my two cents in and give you all the
results of my search for this story...

     It isn't Alfred Besters STAR BRIGHT and it isn't Hal Clement's
STAR LIGHT (which was a sequel to MISSION OF GRAVITY).

     The closest I've come so far has been Henry Kuttner's short story
classic "Mimsey Were the Borogroves" (I'm not quite sure about the
spelling...my book collection is packed!).  I am also reminded of John
Wyndham--but I'm not sure of which book.

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1983 10:04-EST
From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: Re: Niven's space suits

     The idea of the skin-tight metal space suit comes from an
editorial by John Campbell in a 1968-1970 Analog magazine.  This
editorial also described other neat objects such as microphones that
would work from DC to megahertz.  The idea of the skin-tight metal
space suit has been used in many other SF stories, particularly those
appearing in Analog.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Aug 83 2101-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #68
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 26 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 68

Today's Topics:
                        Television - Dr. Who,
                   Books - "Star, Bright" (4 msgs),
        Discussion - Science Fiction and Inventions (2 msgs) &
                              WorldCons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 August 1983 03:13 edt
From: TMPLee.DODCSC at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Dr. Who -- pre/post Baker episodes

     [I'm new to SFL; have been trying to catch up on the last couple
of months issues through the gracious help of our honorable moderator.
If this has been asked/answered before, please point me to it]

     I would be very interested to hear about any other parts of the
country that are showing anything other than the Tom Baker episodes.
(one or two people in recent issues have mentioned the Pertwee
episodes as being in their areas.)  I would like to know two things:

     1) which other Dr.'s are being shown, and

     2) more importantly, how did the viewers in your area go about
convincing the station to show them?

     Here in Minneapolis/St. Paul we have just finished all the 19th
season (Peter Davison) and are currently re-running (for the nth time)
the Tom Baker episodes.  A few weeks ago there was a moderate
flack/excitement when TV Guide said a Pertwee episode was to be shown
here; clearly it was a fault of someone at the TV Guide computer
(which happens to be one built by the company I work for, but that's
irrelevant) typing in the wrong Dalek episode -- it turned out to be a
Baker Dalek rather than a Pertwee Dalek.  Anyway, just to make sure I
called the station to find out what was actually to be shown -- during
the conversation I learned that their contract (with BBC I assume) was
eight years long (from now), so presumably we will be seeing all the
future episodes.

     The only annoyance was that previously they had been showing the
series as half-hour episodes at 5:30 every week-day evening; they are
now showing them as complete movies (4 or 6 episodes) at 10:30 Friday
nights.  That louses up Friday night carousing or whatever and
certainly cuts out the very large audience of children.

Ted Lee

p.s.  We like Davison -- at least 90% of the point of Dr. Who is the
subtle British humor; he has it down quite well.  We noticed
particularly that Tom Baker seemed to have gotten surly in the last
few stories, and were even worried that maybe he was ill.  It is also
clear that with each season BBC has a bigger budget for the show,
which makes the scenery and special effects better.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 83 08:35:03 PDT (Friday)
From: Monahan.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #67

     The story "Star, Bright" (note the comma) was indeed impressive.
I believe it was in one of John Gardner's collections -- maybe
"Fantastica Mathematica" or "The Mathematical Magpie".

John Monahan

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1983 12:52:58 EDT (Friday)
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: STAR, BRIGHT

     Try looking in CHILDREN OF WONDER, an anthology edited, I think,
by William Tenn (a.k.a. Phillip Klass), in non-recent hardcover or
paperback.  This is a guess, but I'm pretty sure of it.  (Note: I
think that an abridged version of this antho was issued at some point)

     You can also try Clifton Fadiman's classic sf-ish anthologies,
FANTASIA MATHEMATICA and THE MATHEMATICAL MAGPIE, which I'm not
betting on as sources, but were great fun anyway.  Try your local
library and their trusty card catalog.  (Boy, do these old books make
me feel dated...)

     I think there's also a story called TWINK in a similar theme, by
lord knows who.  Does anybody out there have a NESFA/MITSFS index
handy?

Yours till the Palentir access the arpanet,

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1983 1401-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX>
Subject: "Star, Bright"

     My books are still packed from my last move, so I can't give you
the author's name, but the story you describe is anthologized in "The
Mathematical Magpie", which your library ought to have.  This book
contains a variety of stories, poetry, etc. that relates to
mathematics.  In one story, a man makes a pact with the devil,
wagering his soul against wealth and power if the devil can perform a
task he specifies.  After the devil agrees, he reveals the task: prove
Fermat's Last Theorem or find a counterexample.  Read the story if you
want to know how good a mathematician the devil turned out to be...
Anyway, "Star, Bright" (the title has a comma) is one of the best
stories in the book.

        Enjoy,
        Larry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Aug 83 00:42 EDT
From: Dennis Rockwell <drockwel@BBN-VAX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #67: Star Bright

     I, too, read that same story (your memory matches mine in every
respect) something like 15 years ago.  It was collected in a book
called (I believe) Children of Wonder, edited by Groff Conklin.  I'm
not absolutely sure about the antho name because I ran across another
antho of the same name, and it didn't have the same stories in it that
I remember.  The original antho also contained "Cabin Boy" by Fritz
Leiber, the first of the "People" stories by Zenna Henderson, "It's a
*Good* Life" by Jerome Bixby (one of the Twilight Zone stories), and
bunches of other SF stories about kids.

     The story is definitely not "All Mimsy Were the Borogroves",
although the plot lines are similar; that story concerned a children's
toy of the future (a toy that taught four(+?)-dimensional thinking)
getting dropped in the present time, with similar results.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1983  14:34 EDT (Fri)
From: Paul Fuqua <PF@MIT-XX>
Subject: Small Grab Bag

     "Star Bright" appeared in a collection edited by Damon Knight
entitled "Tomorrow's Children," possibly along with "It's a Good
Life," the story adapted into the Twilight Zone episode discussed a
couple weeks ago.  (I read it in high school, so between 6 and 9 years
ago, but I still remember both stories.)

     Now, will someone out there help *me* find a story?  If my memory
has not failed me, it is "A Song for Lya," by George R R Martin.  The
major characters are a married couple, one a telepath, the other an
empath, who are some sort of interplanetary detectives.  The object of
their investigations is a creature called the Greeshka, a
protoplasmoid Thing parts of which attach themselves to the humans
living nearby, to the humans' apparent benefit and with their consent.
I read the story in some anthology or other, edited by either Robert
Silverberg or Damon Knight (that narrows it down, doesn't it), but
I've checked many of them out already.  I'd appreciate any pointers,
half-pointers, trace memories, if they lead me in the right direction.
Thanks.
                              Paul Fuqua
                              pf@xx (mit-xx)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 83 13:41:21 EDT
From: SOMMERS@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: re: Predictions

     It would be novel if someone discovered FTL travel and didn't
call it Hyperspace.

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1983 15:12:06-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: notes on stfnal inventions

     By the time of Wilhelm's book, the term "waldo" had become a part
of the general technical vocabulary; I expect it was in general use by
1950.

     On the other hand, the local waterbed store says that Heinlein
was a few millennia too late to invent the waterbed, which appeared in
a primitive and experimental form (it claims) in dynastic Egypt. In
any case I don't think anyone got Heinlein's earliest use, which was
~1943 (BEYOND THIS HORIZON, in which the alarm clock is attached so
that if you don't get up quickly the bed drains non-messily, leaving
you lying on a hard pedestal).

     Last month's DISCOVER had an article on retinal identification;
this month there are two letters, one referencing RAH's THE PUPPET
MASTERS (1951), the other TRIPLANETARY (E. E. Smith, 1948). I wouldn't
be surprised if the device goes back further, but it would be
interesting to see what mundane suggestions there were that retinal
capillaries were distinct enough for identification, and when. (Note
that this was also dramatized in STAR TREK II.)

     H. G. Wells is commonly considered to have been the first writer
to describe a form of television, although his story ("The Crystal
Globe"?)  has something more like one of the palantiri.

     The helicopter/dirigible hybrid of Verne is being developed in a
different shape for logging and cargo purposes; there are spinning
versions and versions which have excess buoyancy, requiring engines to
hold them down when running empty.

     It would also be interesting to list some of the good-sounding
ideas that never took off. How many monorails are there in practical
situations? There are no high-speed people-conveyor belts ("The Roads
Must Roll"), broadcast power ("Waldo", again, and others including
George O. Smith) has big problems.  (Speaking of Smith, notice how
many of the 40's engineering problems have been sidestepped? Venus
Equilateral with its cubic miles of tubes, the navigational computers
in STARMAN JONES that had to have all data entered in binary. . . .)

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 25 Aug 1983 23:19-PDT
Subject: Really belated Heicon '70 report
From: obrien@rand-unix

     I was at Heicon '70 and can speak to that issue.

     Don Lundry got together with a travel service and chartered
something about the size of a 727 from Icelandic to carry a bunch of
fans there and back.  That was about it for American attendance...and
the plane was full.  Must have been about 100-150 fans, at a very
rough guesstimate (don't look up the specs on 727's...this is just
memory and I have no idea what kind of plane it really was).

     In total size the con was about as big as a comfortable regional;
about 400 fans total.  There were quite a number of pros.  As for
cost, I can't compare with today.  Currencies have undergone too many
flip-flops in the intervening 13 years.

     I do remember a fascinating conversation with a German publisher.
He pointed out one of his writers and proudly told me that "he can
write a book every two weeks!"  It became evident that SF in Germany
in 1970 was exactly like SF in America in 1935.  Fans were mainly
correspondence-oriented, and the publishers had no standards
whatsoever.

     Of course no country will ever really look like we did.  We had
no backlog of foreign SF to keep the presses rolling, and to keep us
from developing our own style (bar Jules Verne).  It's sad but true
that in many countries, local talent is regarded by the publishers as
a supplement to the much cheaper, and often much better, mainline
material available through translation.  It's good to know that there
are some very good authors out there in other countries in spite of
the extra-cultural inundation they must overcome.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Aug 83 2116-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #69
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Aug 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 69

Today's Topics:
                Books - Poul Anderson & Isaac Asimov &
              Fritz Leiber (2 msgs) & Murray Leinster &
                          Theodore Sturgeon,
                     Records - Hitchikers Guide,
            Conventions - Convention Listing & WorldCons,
                  Television - Wizards and Warriors,
                          Comics - Elfquest,
                  Books - David Brin (SPOILER!!!!!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 83 3:03:01-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!mprvaxa!bsmith @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: An obscure, trivial question

     After seeing all the messages responding to the question about
the sequel to "Not Final" (if you've missed the answer it's "Victory
Unintentional", from "The Rest of the Robots"), I thought I'd see what
happens with a really obscure, trivial question.  So, here goes:

     Dominic Flandry appears in one novel NOT written by Poul
Anderson.  What is the name of the novel and who is the author?

                              Go to it, trivia fans!

                              Brian Smith
                              (damned if I know the path to this
                               machine)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 16:39:10-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!grindal @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: alternate universes

     Re Silverberg's idea that the flow of history is difficult to
divert:

     This same theme occurs in Asimov's "The End of Eternity", in
which there are people who live "outside" of time.  They can travel
between times, and keep their numbers up by recruiting youngsters from
the various centuries.  (This book has some interesting grammatical
adaptions, including word like "upwhen", "downwhen", "When are you?",
...).

     These people, known as the Eternals, perform two roles.  They use
their time travelling to act as intermediates in commerce between
centuries.  They see their main task, however, as adjusting history
for the "benefit" of mankind as a whole, such as eliminating wars etc.
They find after a while that if they make a change in the 100th
century, the repercussions of the change begin to fade after 40 or so
centuries.  (The Eternals deal with centuries from 19 (1900) to
100,000 and higher).  In other words they find that the flow of
history is difficult to permanently divert.

     As an aside, we also find by the end of the book that by
continually changing history for man's benefit, they have also bred
the initiative and drive out of man, as well as postponing numerous
scientific advances (eg.  the first nuclear explosion is in the 43rd
century instead of the 19th)

                                David Grindal
                                (...!utcsrgv!grindal)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 83 19:54:37-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!brucec @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: alternate universes

     The story describing the difficulty of changing history is
called, appropriately enough, "Try and Change the Past," by Fritz
Leiber.  It's one of a series of stories about what Leiber calls the
Change War, a battle between two groups known as the "Snakes" and
"Spiders" (for reasons which no one in the stories ever discovers, as
far as I remember).  The war is fought throughout time and in every
solar system in at least two galaxies.  Other stories in the series:

        Damnation Morning (short story)
        The Big Time (novel - barely)
        The Oldest Soldier (short story)

     There's another story, whose title I can't recall, though I read
it more recently than the others.  It involves some of the characters
from "The Big Time" in a plot to kidnap Queen Elizabeth I and replace
her with a Spider agent.

                           Bruce Cohen
                           UUCP:   ...!teklabs!tekecs!brucec
                           CSNET:  tekecs!brucec@tektronix
                           ARPA:   tekecs!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 83 12:21-EST (Fri)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Leiber

     Well, we now seem to be on the Leiber (lover) topic, so I will
put my 2 cents in:

     I find Leiber to be an extremely fine writer at his best, but to
produce a significant amount of stuff so poor it looks like it was
written by someone else. My recommendations include:

Riders of the Purple Wage
A Specter is Haunting Texas
Gather Darkness

================================

     Looking at that preview of upcoming titles I have to note that an
awful lot of the authors seem to dragging out old stories in new
hardcover editions.  Look at Pohl, a good writer but stuck among the
Hechee's forever.


                                        - Steve Gutfreund

------------------------------

Date: Fri 26 Aug 83 23:03:18-EDT
From: LINDSAY%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: hyperspace

     The talk about waldos threw out the famous word Hyperspace. Well,
it too was invented: about 1931, if memory serves, by Murray Leinster
(pen name of Will Jenkins). Leinster needed a plot device to get the
protagonists to the locales, and countless authors since have plugged
the same hole with the same word.

     For those new to his name, Murray Leinster appeared in print from
the 1920's all the way into the 1970's. He didn't have the style we
admire in LeGuin or Wolfe: certainly he used too many exclamation
marks. He didn't run to sex, or drugs, or rock 'n roll, either. What
he did have was solid, innovative plotting, based around believable
situations arising from some postulated technology. (Notice I didn't
say, postulated gadget. That was A.E. Van Vogt.)

     We are indebted to Leinster for an amazing swath of "stock" ideas
- travel through solid matter, and so on. Interestingly, we are also
indebted to him for a common special effect technique, which he sold
to Kubrick for "2001".  It's the idea of front-projection, with blank
backdrops made of that stop-sign stuff that reflects all light back to
its source.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1983 18:28:20-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: "Twink"

     Is by Theodore Sturgeon; I have it in one of the oldest books in
my collection (which is nowhere near this terminal), I think called
CAVIAR.  It isn't particularly similar to "Star, Bright"; it's about a
man who (among his other problems) has telepathic/empathic contact
with his unborn daughter. (His wife resents this and everyone else
figures he's a freak.)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 83 8:41:53-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide

     Your argument on 42 reminds me of the Illuminati (sp?) trilogy.
In the books, a number (I think it was 5) is found to be very special
and have importance for a world-wide conspiracy. Arguments similar to
yours are used to turn almost anything into 5. In the end, it is
revealed that what is special about 5 is that it displays man's
ingenuity at developing obscure arguments about such things.

                               eric
                               ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Aug 83 22:52:19 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay
Subject: LONG convention listing

Folks,

     I have in my possession a rather long list of sf conventions to
be held in both the near and not-so-near future in locations all
across this country, Canada, Europe and a few assorted other
locations.  According to the organizer/ compiler/editor of this list,
it will come out to approximately 8 - 10 pages of text.  My question
is , is the list ( known locally as Ben's Hammer ) of any interest to
sf-lovers ??

     See, I don't think that I can convince my fingers to wade through
all that unless there were a few folks out there who would want a
copy.  If there are, then I will be more than glad to start typing.  I
simply need to know if you want me to send all of this list, selected
parts of this list ( as in by region ), or whether you want me to
forget the entire thing.

     In either case, I can be reached at the following address:

        ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay

, and please mark the message 'attention to Dave Godwin', as there are
several of us sharing this account.

                Thank you,

                Dave Godwin
                Educational Technology Center
                UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 83 3:32:53-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!kpno!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: NASFiC

     Those of you who are going to ConStellation are probably aware by
now that there is only one bidder for the 1985 Worldcon: Melbourne,
Australia.  Many of you are probably not aware that when the official
decision is made in Baltimore, if the worldcon leaves North America, a
site will be selected for a North American Science Fiction Convention
(NASFiC) at the business meeting.

     The three bidders for the NASFiC are Detroit, Columbus, and
Austin.  Now I won't say I'm prejudiced, but if you want to know more
about it, stop by the Austin-in-'85 suite at Connie and meet the
people who stuffed File 770's poll with Official Austin Ballot
Stuffing Ballots, see the Austin-in-'85 travelling roadshow in action,
and hear about The First Triennial Lone Star Science Convention and
Chilli Cookoff!

  -- John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas,Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,ut-ngp}!ut-sally!jsq, jsq@utexas-780.ARPA
(soon to be jsq@ut-sally.ARPA)

------------------------------

Subject: Wizards and Warriors continuation, part 2
From: BarryGold (WEISSMAN@USC-ISI)

     The amateur continuation of W&W is now into part 2, to be found
in GUEST0;BARRYG WW2 on MIT-MC .As before, send me mail if you can't
get it via ftp.

     Address requests and comments directly to me, not to SF-LOVERS (I
don't subscribe) or to WEISSMAN.  My addresses are:

        ARPA:   BARRYG@MIT-MC
        usenet: ...ucbvax!decvax!trw-unix!sdcrdcf!barryg

     If we don't get comments, we'll assume no one's interested and
stop typing them in.

----------Barry Gold

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 0:11:48-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!gummo!whuxlb!floyd!cmcl2!jonb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Elfquest

     Is there anybody out there who reads Elfquest (in either comic or
novel form)? Or am I the only one?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
books SUNDIVER and STARTIDE RISING, by David Brin, for people who have
not read the books.

     However, read it anyway, you'll enjoy it!  Forewarned is
forearmed.  The Right To Buy Weapons Is The Right To Be Free!!!!

Sincerely,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

(Sometimes known as "AZATHOTH!")

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1983 15:37:48 EDT (Monday)
From: Dave Mankins <dm@bbn-unix>
Subject: GREAT books

     I just read two great books:

     ``Sundiver'' and ``Startide Rising'' by David Brin.

     Both take place in the same future-history (a couple of hundred
years from now), in which Mankind has achieved interstellar travel,
only to discover that the Galaxy is filled with other intelligent
races, who have formed a "club".  The requirement for entry into the
club is to bring another race up to sentience.  Humans have already
fulfilled this requirement by breeding intelligent dolphins and
chimps.  The club was founded by the mysterious Progenitors--a race
lost in the mists of time and legend (hundreds of millions of years
have gone by since the Progenitors have disappeared).

     EVERYONE in the club was raised to sentience by another "patron"
race--except, it seems, humans.  What happened?  Did our patron forget
about us?  Or, are we something new--an evolved intelligence?

     All of which is background to the two stories.

     ``Sundiver'' is about manned exploration of the SUN.  (How do you
do that?  Why, you refrigerate, of course, dissapating the waste heat
by shooting it off as an X-Ray laser.  Snazzy stuff.)  You, see, while
poking around the solar flares they seem to have found something...

     ``Startide Rising'' is about an Earth-sponsored dolphin
expedition which has found a fleet of Very Old ships.  When the send a
message back to Earth asking for instructions the response is "Hide",
and every race in the galaxy is after them and the secret they have
uncovered.  Having survived an ambush at a jump point, they have
landed on a water-covered planet to effect repairs to their injured
ship (crew of dolphins, with some human helpers, remember), while
galactic fleets battle it out in the sky.

     The dolphins all speak poetry, they have a monomaniacal
Chimpanzee geologist who would just love to set off a few high
explosives to get a better idea of what is going on inside this
curious planet, and some very clever human beings.

     Yum.  Such ideas.  Someone should buy this guy a word-processor
so he can write more books faster.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Aug 83 0021-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #70
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 30 Aug 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 70

Today's Topics:
              Discussion - Alternate Universes (8 msgs),
                    News - What's Coming in Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1983  01:51 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Numbering Universes

     Apropos describing universes as binary bit streams, two problems:

     1) Quantum physics tends to side toward a probability cloud for
the electron, meaning decisions are not binary (you were considering
the problem at too much of a macro level, whose's to say what affect
electron X going to location N instead of location M in a given
universe would have).

     2) Suppose you have two simultaneous decisions?

                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 83 18:01:52-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: numbering alternate universes

Jon McCombie writes:

     "A friend of mine, Mike Davis, proposes the following method of
numbering multiple universes.  I submit it for our collective
consideration.

     "'At virtually every point in time, some event is occurring which
can be represented as a binary decision.  Every time such a decision
is made, new universes are made, one for each possible outcome of the
decision.
....

     "'Each universe, then, can be described by the unique bit stream
which describes the yes/no decisions which went into making the
universe.'

     "Unfortunately, that makes for universe whose descriptive numbers
are infinitely long.  Then again, this is a necessity in this
description, in which there are an infinite number of alternate
universes."

     You cannot assume that all decisions are binary.  The various
constants of nature had to be chosen (by God, or whomever), for
instance, and they are in general irrational numbers.  The entire
irrational number would have to be included in the universe-
description, but that requires an infinite number of bits, so you can
never get to the part that represents the next decision.

     (This result is related to Cantor's theorem that shows the real
numbers, and hence the irrationals, to be more numerous than the
rationals.  If anybody didn't know that theorem and is interested,
consult math books at about the first-year-university level or better
yet read Douglas Hofstadter's "Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden
Braid".  Look under Cantor.)

     Perhaps it would be sufficient to "number" each universe with a
FUNCTION mapping real numbers to real numbers; I believe these are
more numerous than real numbers.  But I would hate to define the
mapping.

     Incidentally, a novel I found very good which is precisely
concerned with parallel universes with differing constants of nature
(specifically the constant describing the strength of the "strong
nuclear force") is Isaac Asimov's "The Gods Themselves".  According to
his autobiography, he started it after hearing another writer (who
wanted to make some example concrete) speak of plutonium-186; Asimov
remarked to him, "You know there's no such isotope, but just to show
you what a real SF writer can do, I'll write a story about
plutonium-186."

Mark Brader (M. Math), NTT Systems Inc., Toronto

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 23:29:55-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Alternate time zones

     All this talk of alternate worlds has got me re-reading
"Paratime" by H. Beam Piper.  There is a very good introduction by
John Carr, and the stories are concerned with what happens when small
(or large) changes occur in what we consider "history".  For example,
what if Benedict Arnold is shot in Quebec and this results in the 1776
revolution failing.  And this in turn doesn't exist to excite European
political sentiments which means that there is no French revolution
and thus Napoleon remains a gunnery officer.

     Other interesting stories have been written by Robert Silverberg
(Spanish Armada wins); Harry Harrison (American Revolution fails); L.
Neil Smith (American revolution succeeds but results in a Libertarian
state); Fletcher Pratt (deals more with how to change history).

  --
Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Group
University of Toronto
{ linus, ihnp4, allegra, floyd }!utcsrgv!perelgut

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 83 17:02:46-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!brucec @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Alternate time zones

     Odd coincidence, that Stephen Perelgut just re-read "Paratime",
since I finished re-reading it just before starting reading this
series of articles last week.

     Anyway ...  as long as we're talking about history-changing
stories.  I thought I'd mention a few more of the ones that I consider
classics.  First and foremost in my mind, though I haven't even seen a
copy in years, is Ward Moore's "Bring the Jubilee," about a secret
plot to change the history of Confederate-dominated 20th Century
America.  The thing that makes this story so good is the detail in the
differences in history, and the care with which the characters are
developed in the context of those differences.

     On a somewhat less literary plane, there is the trilogy by
Richard Meredith: "At the Narrow Passage," "No Brother, No Friend,"
and (oops, forgot the title of the other one).  This is the story of a
man recruited from a time-line similar to ours into a war between two
forces moving into the human-inhabited time lines from opposite sides.
These books (as Meredith acknowledges) are indebted to Piper's
Paratime stories for much of the concept of the (para)physics of
timelines.  Where Piper seems to have had an idea of a linear segment
of timelines (or maybe a ray, it's not clear), Meredith's idea is an
infinite line, with timelines stretching off to the Temporal East and
West (political analogy may have been intended).  He also wrote a
story called "Run, Come See Jerusalem," which I have not read, but
from the cover blurb, it would seem to be about trying to erase the
history of a future theocracy.

     Hmm ... there are a lot more than I though when I started.  OK,
I'll mention one more: a short novel called "Two Dooms," by Cyril
Kornbluth, written shortly before he died.  It investigates the
question of what would have happened if the Axis powers had won the
Second World War, and may have been the first story to do that [you'll
correct me if that surmise is wrong].  I'm fairly sure that it was
part of the inspiration for "The Man in the High Castle" which was
published 5 years later.

                      Bruce Cohen
                      UUCP:   ...!teklabs!tekecs!brucec
                      CSNET:  tekecs!brucec@tektronix
                      ARPA:   tekecs!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 83 12:52:45-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!andrew @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: numbering alternate universes

     "You cannot assume that all decisions are binary.  The various
constants of nature had to be chosen (by God, or whomever), for
instance, and they are in general irrational numbers.  The entire
irrational number would have to be included in the
universe-description, but that requires an infinite number of bits, so
you can never get to the part that represents the next decision."

     A single bit stream can still be used, as long as there are only
a countable number of such irrational numbers.  You simply interleave
the bit stream representations of those irrationals with the rest of
the information describing the universe.  Of course, your bit stream
is now infinitely long, and so problems such as comparing two
universes become rather hard.

  -- Andrew Klossner
(decvax!tektronix!tekecs!andrew)  [UUCP]
(andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)     [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 83 19:52:41-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: numbering alternate universes

     Ouch, I should have read Steve Platt (Platt%UPenn@UDel-Relay)'s
item before submitting.  He correctly points out that bitstreams will
not number universes, for a reason much simpler than mine.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 83 19:10:40-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: numbering alternate universes

     "You cannot assume that all decisions are binary.  The various
constants of nature had to be chosen (by God, or whomever), for
instance, and they are in general irrational numbers.  The entire
irrational number would have to be included in the
universe-description, but that requires an infinite number of bits, so
you can never get to the part that represents the next decision."

      A single bit stream can still be used, as long as there are only
a countable number of such irrational numbers.  You simply interleave
the bit stream representations of those irrationals with the rest of
the information describing the universe.  Of course, your bit stream
is now infinitely long, and so problems such as comparing two
universes become rather hard.

     Can you map a countable number of irrationals onto one bit
stream?  I thought it had to be a finite number, and I don't think we
can assume that a finite number will do for all possible universes.
If I'm wrong, please tell me how to do it (by mail).  --Anyway, can we
not conceive on a universe that has an analog of the Uncertainty
Principle but in which physics is NOT quantized?  I would think that
such a universe would generate uncountable infinities of irrationals.

Mark Brader, NTT Systems Inc., decvax!utzoo!dciem!ntt

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Aug 83 15:05:51 EDT
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Bit strings for alternate universes

     I think Scott Turner's objection is invalid.  It doesn't matter
that the N+1 decision is different, since we know (at the time we
evaluate the N+1 bit) the value of the N bit (am I presuming?).  Thus,
we're looking through an infinite binary tree.

     The assumption that makes this idea unpalatable to me is the
assumption that the alternate universes are amenable to binary
representations in the first place.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 83 11:04:18-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Publishing News

     Time for the September LOCUS information summary.  And remember
kiddies, all of this is without prior permissions.  If you want to
hear about what every publisher/author is planning, read LOCUS.  There
is soooo much happening that I am being selective and biased toward my
own fave's.  There are just too many new books for the fall.

     If anyone out there is reading these, could you drop me a line.
If I am encouraged enough I will continue to do this.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

     Robert A. Heinlein has finished a new novel, JOB: A COMEDY OF
JUSTICE.  It's a 400 page alternate-world fantasy satire on religion.
Part of it takes place in heaven.

Purchases:

Berkeley/Ace:

Paperback rights to Joe Haldeman's WORLD'S APART

SLIPT! by Alan Dean Foster

Two new Thieves' World anthologies by R.L. Asprin and Lynn Abbey

Bantam:

THE EYE OF THE HERON by Ursula K. LeGuin

A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN by Harry Harrison (a prequel concluding
the series!?!)

Gaming:

     Mayfair Games is planning all sorts of sf-story related games.
Late this year they plan to release an ELFQUEST game with art by the
Pinis.  They plan an "Aahz and Skeeve" game for early 1984 (I can't
wait for this one.  Any other Mythguided fanatics out there?  I only
hope to find some good gamers around here).  They also have an
original map of Pern by Tim Hildebrandt (hope he keeps the near-naked
bosom females in chains out of this one) for the Dragonriders of Pern
game.  This game is available already.  It is described as moderate
complexity for 1-7 players.

Scheduled:

Arbor House:

The final volume in the "Marjipoor" trilogy, VALENTINE PONTIFEX by R.
Silverberg (November)

Del Rey:

THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME by John Brunner (September hc)

ON A PALE HORSE, first in a new series, by Piers Anthony (October hc)

MORETA: DRAGONLADY OF PERN by Anne McCaffrey (YEAHHH!!) (November hc)

Donning/Starblaze:

WEB OF LIGHT and sequel WEB OF DARKNESS by Marion Zimmer Bradley (fall
1983)

HIT OR MYTH by Robert Asprin (YEAHHH!!)

THE BRONZE GOD OF RHODES by L. Sprague de Camp

Doubleday:

THE ROBOTS OF DAWN by Isaac Asimov (October hc)

Faber&Faber:

THE MEANING OF LIFE by Douglas Adams & John Lloyd (Oct)

Putnam:

GODS OF RIVERWORLD by Philip Jose Farmer (October hc)

QUEEN OF SWORDS by William Kotzwinkle (January hc)

Simon & Schuster:

UNICORN VARIATION collection by Roger Zelazny (Oct)

BROKEN SYMMETRIES by Paul Preuss (Oct)

THE ARMAGEDDON RAG by George R.R. Martin
(October)rock&roll/sixties/horror novel

HOKA by Poul Anderson and Gordon R. Dickson (YEAHH!!)

Viking:

WORLDS APART: A NOVEL OF THE FUTURE by J Haldeman (Oct)

TOR:

THE SECOND BOOK OF SWORDS by Fred Saberhagen (Nov)

--
Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Group    University of Toronto
Usenet: {linus, ihnp4, allegra, decvax, floyd}!utcsrgv!perelgut
ARPA:   utcsrgv!perelgut@UW-BEAVER

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Sep 83 0111-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #71
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 31 Aug 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 71

Today's Topics:
                      Administrivia - WorldCon,
   Books - Poul Anderson and A. Bertram Chandler & "Star, Bright" &
               Harry Harrison & Fritz Leiber (2 msgs),
      Discussion - Alternative Universes (2 msgs) & Characters &
              Scicence Fiction vs. Fantasy & Monorails,
                Records - Hitchhiker's Guide (2 msgs)
     Film - It!  The Thing From Beyond Space & WarGames (3 msgs),
                          Comics - ElfQuest

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 83 00:34:23 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: WorldCon

Folks--

     For all of you that are going to WorldCon this year, enjoy!  I
wish that I could be there with you, but moving day beckons...

     While you are there, you might want to say hello to a few of my
friends:

     Ronald Fischer--a roomie of several years, Ron is working on the
Common Lisp project at R.U.

     Cindy Gold--a perfect hostess for the SFL Party...

     Charles McGrew--he doesn't care...

     Steven Zeve--Introduced me to SFL some time back...

     And, you may see these non-SFLers, say hello to them, also...

     Steven Davidson--my former boss at CONTACT S.F., back when...

     Joseph Zitt--yes, that is his name...

     Enjoy!  Maybe when it comes back around to NYC...

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 83 23:05:51 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Haynes.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Obscure, Trivial, Flandry question

     Flandry appears in one of A. Bertram Chandler's Commodore
Grimes/Rim stories, possibly "The Rim Gods".  (It was the one about
the extra-galactic derelict).  I'm at work or I could tell you the
exact name.

        A dyed in the wool Anderson AND Chandler fan,
        -- Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 30 Aug 1983 08:22-PDT
Subject: Star, Bright
From: turner@rand-unix

     Thanks to everyone who came to my aid on finding this story.

     The definitive placement seems to be in Clifton Fadiman's
MATHEMATICAL MAGPIE (the sequel to MATHEMATICA FANTASIA).  Apparently
the story may also appear in a book entitled CHILDREN OF WONDER or
something similar.  There was no consensus on the title or editor (it
is a collection).

  Thanx again....
                   Scott Turner
                   turner@rand-unix
                   ...randvax!turner

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 83 12:21:44-PDT (Sat)
From: npois!hogpc!pegasus!brs @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Star Smashers now available

     Harry Harrison's "Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers", discussed
several months ago on this newsgroup, has been reprinted as an Ace
paperback ($2.50).  It is available in SF bookstores and, presumably,
in larger mall ones as well.  This book is a hilarious parody of space
operas, and, to my mind, much better than Adam's Hitchhikers Guide.

------------------------------

From: kalash%UCBINGRES@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Date: 31 Aug 83 09:03:22 PDT (Wed)
Subject: I don't think so

     Unless Phil Farmer is a pen name for Fritz Leiber, I don't think
Riders of the Purple Wage can be laid at Fritz's door. Also, the quote

  "Look at Pohl, a good writer but stuck among the Hechee's forever."

Seems a bit strong. Pohl has written one Hechee short story, two
novels and has one more coming out. I would hardly call that "stuck".

                        Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Aug 83 15:48:18 EDT
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Riders of the Purple Wage & Fritz Leiber

     ... is by Phillip Jose Farmer, not Fritz Leiber, and appeared in
the original Dangerous Visions anthology, edited by Harlan Ellison.
Related questions: I'm searching for a Fritz Leiber story, of novella
length (I believe).  The title is something along the lines of "The
Ship Sails at Midnight."  I think it appeared in F&SF.  Any clues?
And when will the next Fafhrd/Mouser book appear?

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 83 11:56:46 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Halbert.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: alternate US History

     Several years ago I read "For Want of a Nail" with the subtitle
"If Burgoyne had Won at Saratoga" (I think) Unfortunately I cannot
remember the author now. It's a detailed account of what would have
happened if the American colonies had lost the revolutionary war.
Jefferson et al flee to the southwest, form a country, etc.

     The book was written by a historian , not a science fiction
writer, and does not really resemble science fiction. It's a very
detailed fictional history. The details occasionally become tedious,
but it's interesting reading.

--Dan

------------------------------

Date: 1 September 1983 00:10 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL @ MIT-MC>

"Date: 26 Aug 83 17:02:46-PDT (Fri)
"From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!brucec @ Ucb-Vax

"I'll mention one more: a short novel called "Two Dooms," by Cyril
Kornbluth, written shortly before he died.  It investigates the
question of what would have happened if the Axis powers had won the
Second World War, and may have been the first story to do that ..."

     Isaac Asimov wrote an alternate universe story, I think it was
called 'Earth is Room Enough', in which the Nazis won.  It was written
BEFORE the Nazis lost.  I suspect it was the first.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 31 Aug 83 01:24:58-EDT
From: LINDSAY%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Alternate History

     Another fine story about changing history is "Take Wooden
Indians", by Avram Davidson. The hero is a member of a club that has
identified the moment at which America started going downhill. But, he
doesn't like their methods: they intend to destroy the company that
invented metal cigar-store indians!

     Poul Anderson wrote one in the other direction - about a man on
the Manhattan Project who visits the future where he didn't succeed in
building the bomb.  It is a particularly good vision of horrific
despotism, with (of course) the Nazis and Japanese in charge. Sorry,
my library is in storage, or I'd give a reference.

     As for the week's trivia challenge ... Bertram Chandler had his
hero, Commander Grimes, run into Dominic Flandry at one of those weak
spots in the continuum that happen out past the Rim...

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 83 18:20:05-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!rocky2!cucard!jonb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Characters with a life of their own

     I've seen the "perception of other realities" concept in various
places, but the only one that comes to mind is the comic-book
"Warriors in the Shadow Realm," which describes an alternate universe
called "Weirdworld."  The comic wasn't that great, but Doug Moench
(the author) mentioned the possibility of inspiration from alternate
worlds. I'm sure I've seen it in other places as well, because it
sounds very familiar.

     As to how this reflects on fantasy and sf writers, well, it
denigrates their creativity (all the stuff they thought they made up
themselves turns out to be real!), but it indicates that these writers
have exceptional perception and sensitivity to AUW's (Alternate
Universe Waves, of course). Is that good or bad? I dunno.

     I guess I agree with you that there is a possibly infinite number
of alternate realities, although of course there's no way of proving
this (yet). Isn't it exciting to think that places like Middle-Earth,
Melnibone, The Land, or whatever you like, actually exist out there,
as described? Kinda neat, ain't it? Get down, get funky!

Jon Bornholdt

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 19:42:17-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!ubc-visi!tech @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: science vs. fantasy

     Is there a fantasy group??

     What is wrong with fantasy and science fiction being discussed in
the same place?

     Grownups can tell the difference between the two.

Richard Loken

------------------------------

Date: 28 August 1983 23:35 edt
From: Jarrell.Advisor at SYSTEM-M.PHOENIX.HONEYWELL
Subject: Monorails

     The only full-blown system I can think of is at Disneyworld,
where monorails provide the major source of transportation connect
everything in the world except for the nearby shopping village.  A new
route is planned for there however.  According to a Disney information
book, the WED transportation systems monorail system has carried >300
million passengers >5 million passenger miles in "near perfect
safety." That last phrase worries me.  What group of passengers got
stuck on the rail for 5 hours??

     An additional system developed by WED is the WEDWAY people mover,
a linear-induction train system, the second generation of which has
recently been approved by the federal government for public
transportation use, and has been installed at Houston airport.

          -Ron

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 11:35:43-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!fluke!prodeng @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Hitchhikers Guide

     In the Hitchhiker's Guide trilogy, there was the scenario of the
"answer to the great question of Life, the Universe, and Everything."

     The answer, given in the first book, was "42".  The question,
given in the third book, was "What is 6 times 9".  How about this: 6 X
9 = 54 IN BASE 10. But, if 54 is considered in base 13, it is (4 times
13) + (2 times 1) = 52 + 2 = 54.  Thus, 54 (base 10) = 42 (base 13).
The 6 and 9 are still 6 and 9 in base 13.  Thus, 6 times 9 = 42.

     Has anyone else seen this?  Is the joke that the universe is
intrinsically based on the traditionally "unlucky" number 13?

Grapelet

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1983 10:08:00-EDT
From: Louis A Mamakos <louie@cvl>
Subject: Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

     Does anyone have any details about who produces the 'Restaurant
at the End of the Universe' album?  I've tried to find it a various
record stores in the suburban Washington, DC area with no success.

Louis A. Mamakos

Internet:  louie@cvl.arpa
CSNet:     louie.cvl@umcp-cs
uucp:      ..!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!louie

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 83 12:06:05 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Mackey.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: B+ S.F. Movie: "It! The Thing from Beyond Space"

     A few months ago on Creature Features (S.F. Bay Area
SF/Horror/Fantasy late night TV show) aired the movie "It! The Thing
from Beyond Space." With a title like that, I expected a very poor
movie. But the host, Bob Stanley, who is a local film critic, assured
all us viewers that this movie was worth seeing, and that we might
find some parallels to "Alien," since this movie inspired it.

     Sure enough, there were strong similarities. The story takes
place on a ship which has rescued the sole survivor of a mission to
Mars. The survivor doesn't know what happened to his ship and crew,
and the rescue party suspects he went crazy killing them and
destroying the ship. But soon the same accidents begin to take place,
and the crew finds themselves in a battle to survive.

     The good special effects, acting, and serious tone all make it
believable. It had few silly things like people walking alone into
dark rooms, and the characters intelligently thought-out their plans
of attack and defense, reminding me of the classic "The Thing." I was
surprised at how frightening it got for a 50's (?) SF movie, though
not at all like "The Thing." Look for it.

~Kevin

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 83 09:02:08 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Aaayyyooooaaa!

     High Ones Ears!

     I never thought to ask if there are other Elfquesters out there
in SF-LOVERS land.  I've been on board since issue 5.

     If any of you are interested in EXCELLENT illustrated adult
fantasy (and I DON'T mean Heavy Metalish eroticism), check out
Elfquest.  I would recommend the large format Elfquest Illustrated
(Books I & II) for new comers.  The books are in color, while the
comic is in b&w (though I'm not recommending against the comic for
that reason: I prefer the comic over the color-books since the comics
contain current events of the Quest.)

     However, I think a caveat in called for.  Don't start reading
Elfquest if you are the impatient sort.  Only THREE issues are
published in a year.  That's a four month wait from issue to issue.
This situation is aggravated by the fact that almost every issue ends
in a cliff-hanger!  You may wonder why certain comic book store owners
look haggard and strung-out three times a year.  As the deadline for
EQ delivery approaches, EQ fans hound and harass the poor shop owners
with, "Is it in yet?? Did you get the shipment yet???"

Perry
(aka Lorekeeper)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 83 5:29:20-PDT (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!davies @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: WarGames in Los Alamos - (nf)

     Wrongness varies from story to story.  A local newspaper here
stated in an editorial that a group of 100 teenagers had broken into a
top-secret computer at the Pentagon.  I suspect ignorance rather than
sensationalism was the reason behind this slip-up, though (the editor
of this newspaper is not widely known for being on the ball).

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 83 11:02-EST (Tue)
From: Steven Zeil <zeil%umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: WARGAMES

     The following quote is taken from "Software Engineering Notes",
the newsletter for the ACM Special Interest Group on Software
Engineering.  The editor, Peter Neumann, is reviewing previously
reported bugs failures in critical computer systems.  One of these
bugs occurred on Nov. 9 1979, when "the effects of a simulated attack
were allowed to propagate into the real world, triggering an alert." -
SEN Notes 7/80

     In the July 1983 issue, Neumann states, "It is indeed valuable
for us to be aware of pitfalls, both actual and potential.  (The movie
WARGAMES - although technically flawed - is probably useful in helping
to alert the public to some of the latent problems. [A note is in
order for those who carp about the fishy plot dependence upon dial-up
lines to NORAD.  A simulation with an unsuspected live connection to
the defense system is indeed one of the actual problems noted above!
And easily guessable passwords present a common pitfall in many
systems.  <The movie's reference to "silicone diodes" provides a
parodization in the spirit of earlier uses of "nucular" and "prevert"
{e.g., from Dr. Strangelove}.>])" - SEN Notes 7/83

                                                       Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 83 12:23:59-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.pur-phy!els @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Wargames Flight Reservations - (nf)

     Just because the computer was a Los Alamos doesn't necessarily
mean that the machine involved had anything to do with weapons or
energy!  There is a great deal of theoretical and experimental physics
done at Los Alamos.

                        els[Eric Strobel]
                        pur-ee!pur-phy!els

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Sep 83 0123-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #72
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 Sep 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 72

Today's Topics:
                 Television -  Wizards and Warriors,
                      Film - Star Trek (2 msgs),
               Film - METALSTORM (SPOILER WARNING!!!!!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1983 14:58-PDT
Subject: Wizards and Warriors
From: BarryGold (WEISSMAN@USC-ISI)

     Part 3 of the continuation is available in GUEST0; BARRYG WW3 on
MIT-MC.

     If you can't get it via ftp, you can request it of (ARPA) BARRYG
at MIT-MC:

(usenet) ...ucbvax!decvax!trw-unix!sdcrdcf!barryg
         ...sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!barryg
         ...allegra!sdcrdcf!barryg

----------Barry Gold

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 26 August 1983, 20:13-PDT
From: Reynolds@Rand-unix
Subject: Star Trek news

     According to Ralph Winter, Associate Producer of Star Trek III,
there are no concrete plans to do a fourth movie at this time.  It may
well happen, but it is conditional on the earnings of ST3.

     One of the sound stages (#15) involved in the major fire on the
Paramount lot last Thursday contained sets under construction for ST3.
The building itself was damaged (gaping holes burned through the roof
and walls) but the sets survived.  Bill Shatner was actually out there
holding fire hoses, helping to fight the blaze.  Production on ST3
should be only slightly delayed.

     The most heartbreaking loss was of the 55 year old "New York
street" -- a block of false fronts used for countless New York street
scenes in many classic Paramount films.

-c

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 83 9:48:53-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Another Angle on the Transporters

     I don't know if anyone in this group has brought this up, but in
the James Blish novel "Spock Must Die!" there is an interesting
description of the transporter process.  It's integral to the plot, as
Spock is "reverse duplicated" through a transporter mishap.  It's been
a long time since I've read the book, but I seem to recall something
about an analysis of a person/thing's "dirac state" (???)  by the
transporter, then a creation of that same state elsewhere to
accomplish the transportation.

     As I said, my memory of the book is fuzzy.  Could someone out
there in netland find that book and post that description?  It would
lend more fuel to the fire on this discussion.

Thanks,
B.K. ("I canna do it, Captain!") Cobb
BTL, Naperville, IL

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie METALSTORM for people who have not seen the movie.

     However, read it anyway, you'll enjoy it!

     Forewarned is forearmed.

Sincerely,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1983 19:06:39-PDT
From: John L. Romkey <romkey@MIT-CSR>
Subject: METALSTORM (spoiler?)

     Last week I saw METALSTORM - THE DESTRUCTION OF JARED-SYN (or
something like that), and since it was mentioned a little while ago, I
thought I'd give my impression of it. It wasn't bad for a 3D movie; it
was one of the better ones I've seen story-wise. The story was still
pretty bad, though.

     One thing that struck me was that the 3D was often used in fairly
mundane ways: plants, the car was very 3D, etc. Not many sharp pointy
things flying at my face. When there seemed to be good times for 3D
effects, they didn't quite pull it off - the bodies that could have
rolled out of the screen at me didn't quite make it; maybe it was
because they rolled off the bottom of it first.

     The story was even vaguely interesting at times, but the end
really fell to pieces. Somebody must have lost his grip there. The
hero said he'd pursue Jared-Syn and then proceeded to shoot a crystal
and walk off into the sunset. What does Metalstorm have to do with the
story? And Jared-Syn never got destructed!

        - John Romkey
          romkey@mit-csr

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Sep 83 0001-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #73
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 Sep 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 73

Today's Topics:
        Books - A. Bertram Chandler & Fritz Leiber (2 msgs) &
                Larry Niven & J.R.R. Tolkien (2 msgs),
        Discussion - Alternate Universes & Computer Security,
              Records - Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy,
          Film - It!  The Terror from Beyond Space! (2 msgs)
                     Mixed Message - "Mixed Bag",
                   Film - Metalstorm (Mild Spoiler)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 83 13:15:28-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: An obscure, trivial question

     Doesn't Flandry appear in one of Bertram Chandler's novels about
John Grimes, late of the Federation (?) Survey Service? I believe the
story in question deals with one of Grimes' trips along the unexplored
Rim of the galaxy, or perhaps out of the galaxy entirely, visiting a
severely improbable planet, but damme, I can't think of the name of
the story.

-K. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: Thu 1 Sep 83 13:46:23-EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Fritz Leiber

     Along with Ted Sturgeon, Leiber is one of the best WRITERS
(stylists) in science fiction--and beyond. An earlier post left out
several of his more interesting books:

     "Conjure Wife"--an occult fantasy based on the idea that all
women are witches and use witchcraft to further their menfolk's
careers.

     "Our Lady of Darkness"--a literary horror novel set in
present-day San Francisco. The horror is all implied, but very
effective.

     "The Silver Eggheads"--science fiction slapstick; giant "word
processors" produce books, with the nominal authors being merely
actors, playingroles ala Hollywood celebrities.

     Leiber has been an actor, and appeared in one or two horror
movies.

--Dave Lewin
  lewin@cmu-cs-c

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 83 13:44:17-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Niven's space suits

     The "Belter Skintight" space suit was invented and tested in the
early days of the American space program.  It was made of a tough knit
fabric which supplied the wearer's own skin with sufficient support to
withstand the internal pressure against vacuum, and provided a
built-in temperature control system using the wearer's sweat
evaporating through the suit.  It was fitted using a measuring device
like a giant paper comb and required custom-made pads to fill the
body's hollows (armpits and crotch) where the suit couldn't fit close
enough.  This suit was tested in vacuum chambers and was found to give
comparable protection and superior mobility compared to the
multi-layer pressure suits used today.  Why was it not used?  I don't
recall exactly, but I think it was political.

     This information comes from a science fact article by Jerry
Pournelle in Destinies magazine/book about two (??) years ago.  Dr.
Pournelle, if you read this, could you post any new information to the
net?

-- David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                     (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 83 1:25:13-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Proudfoot - (nf)

     "There are 3 listings for "Proudfoot" in the Palo Alto phone
book, so there must be at least 3 people who think it's a legitimate
name."

     Well, <expletive>! if there are people with the name, then it is
ipso facto legitimate.

Berry Kercheval
Zehntel Inc.    (decvax!sytek!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 83 22:38:25-PDT (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: LOTR and Proudfeet - (nf)

     Could that be why Sam's wife's name is Rose COTTON?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 1983 0649-PDT
Subject: If the Axis had won...
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)

     One rather obscure alternate-universe novel based on the premise
that the Allies lost WWII was titled, as I recall, "THE SOUND OF HIS
HORN".  I do not recall the author, but it seems to me that it was a
mainstream type, not someone who had (or has since) written any SF.

     The story was set in Britain, a large chunk of which was game
preserve for Goering or someone like him.  They hunted people on this
preserve, and the "horn" in the title was a hunting horn.

     As hazy memory recalls it, I read this before Dick's MAN IN THE
HIGH CASTLE, but that has little to do with which was written first.

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 1-Sep-83 01:51:04-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: False Alerts

     Of course, there is a considerable difference between simulation
"leakage" problems WITHIN a secure facility and having dialup lines
(using unencrypted communications, yet) running INTO a classified
computer system.

     Actually, my favorite false alert didn't really involve any
computer failure at all.  A genuine human being put the wrong tape
into a reader for an emergency broadcast system (EBS) test.  The tape
he inserted was the actual "broadcast station alert" tape instead of
the normal test tape.  Interestingly, since the alert occurred at the
time that stations were expecting the test, the majority of stations
ignored the alert completely.  A few actually called in for more
information.  I don't believe that any stations immediately entered
alert mode as they "should" have.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  1 Sep 83 00:48:53 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay
Subject: The Answer

     There has been a bit of talk, as of late, over the actual meaning
of the Answer given in Adams' Life the Universe and Everything.  I
like the idea that 9x6 = 42 in base thirteen, and a couple of the
others that have come up, but there is one thing that must be taken
into consideration.

     Douglas Adams is a writer, an author of three very entertaining
books.  But he is not a computer scientist; his talent lies in another
area, and with no disrespect intended, I don't think that he would
think of using a totally alien numbering system to put forth a joke.
And even if he did, I think he would have been more subtle.

     See, we gotta look think like a guy who spends most of his time
in front of a different kind of keyboard --- a Typewriter keyboard.
How many of us still use one of those nobel devices ??  I do, on
occasion, and one evening I came to realize a wonderful fact.  When
centering the paper on the machine's roller, using a standard left
hand column setting, the paper will always center on tab stop number
42...

     Does this mean that the Universe is about to be replaced by some-
thing even stranger...?  Or maybe it has been already...

                Dave

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 83 09:28:39 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: "It! The Terror from Beyond Space!"

     "*TERROR* from Beyond Space", not "*THING*"; who could forget the
wording of a great title like that?

     I believe Jerome Bixby (author of more than a few famous SF
stories, like "It's a *Good* Life!", and Star Trek scripts, like
"Mirror, Mirror") did the screenplay for this classic monster film.

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 1983 12:39:38-EDT
From: Eric.Patterson at CMU-CS-H
Subject: It! The Terror From Beyond Space

     I'll have to say I disagree with the review of "It! The Terror
From Beyond Space," even though it is the film that inspired "Alien."
"It!" is a dog if there ever was, frequently shown at 4:00 a. m. on
Sunday mornings.  It bears resemblance to countless 50's "sci-fi"
films: one-dimensional characters being chased by a monster (which
either came from outer space or was created by radiation).  The
monster was hardly shown in this picture, and the special effects are
extremely low-budget (the simulation of rocket flight was extremely
fake).  Lead player Marshall Thompson nearly put me to sleep; people
may be frightened by how boring this film is, not by anything remotely
scary in this film.

     Personally, I feel the best 1950's sci-fi film was undoubtedly
"Invasion of the Body Snatchers," a both entertaining and
thought-provoking film.  It also has one of the greatest endings of
any film, any time.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 1 Sep 83 20:47:05-EDT
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Mixed bag.

     I read Elfquest, for who(m?)ever was asking. But Cerebus is where
it's at. wuffa wuffa. Try the comics-lovers bboard, if it still
exists.

     The idea of compiling lists of stories of a particular type
intrigues me.  Would people be kind enough to send me title, author,
etc. of stories which use the 'Pact with the Devil' theme? I've always
been particularly fond of them; I'll submit the list to the net if it
seems appropriate.

     2 questions, one obscure. In the collection '100 Short-Short SF
Stories' there was a story called FTA in which someone invented a
hyperdrive. The problem was that the speed of light in hyperspace was
slower than in our space, so the hyperdrive was useless. Anyway, what
did FTA stand for?????  Second, and incredibly obscure, I once saw a
book which was dedicated to several people (at least 3), among whom
were Retief and Jason DinAlt (of Keith Laumer and Harry Harrison
[Deathworld] fame) and some other people, presumably also fast
thinkers. What was the book? I do not know, but I have been trying to
find it for years.

                        Jacob Butcher

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Sep 83 14:37 PDT
From: RStandifer.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #72

     I think MetalStorm refers to all the destruction that was going
on.  One of those funny-looking Road Warrior-ripoff metal vehicles got
blown up every 2-3 minutes....I guess that is the metalstorm.  The 3-d
was pretty good -- I mean it was clear and I didn't get a headache.
But I wouldn't recommend the movie to my worst enemy (not even
Jared-Syn himself deserves such agony).  The stupidest thing about the
movie is that Mr.  Syn didn't even get destroyed, so where on Earth
(or in space) did they get that ridiculous title from?

--Rae Lynne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Sep 83 1955-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #74
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Sep 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 74

Today's Topics:
                     Books - Various Book Reviews
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 835:52:19-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Book Reviews (I)

     Some reviews of my recent reading.  Stars next to titles
indicate collections or anthologies.  All the books are paperbacks,
with the publisher or series title shown.  Ratings are 0-10: 0 = 'I
don't know why I bought this trash,' 5 = 'Readable but
disappointing,' 7.5 = 'I liked it (but I don't know about other
people),' 10 = 'Kill for this book.'

     *BLOODED ON ARACHNE.  Michael Bishop.  Timescape.  A collection
of Bishop's short stories and novelettes spanning the period
1970-78.  Some good stuff in here, but occasionally damaged by
excessive seriousness.  'The House of Compassionate Sharers' is nice
story about prostitution, I believe it appeared in a Terry Carr
collection; 'Leaps of Faith' is a clever fantasy about fleas; 'Rogue
Tomato' pokes fun at poor Franz Kafka, the 'New Wave', and (yes!)
Arthur Clarke; 'The White Otters of Childhood' is a reverse version
of THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR MOREAU, with a twist of JAWS. (7.0)

     *CHANGES.  Michael Bishop and Ian Watson, eds.  Ace.  A
collection of previously published stories, all dealing with the
theme of metamorphosis.  The stories vary wildly in style and
content; most are very good, a few are weak.  The good ones include
'Sisohpromatem' by Kit Reed, in which a roach finds itself
transformed into a gigantic human being; 'The Byrds' by Michael G.
Coney, a very funny story which tells how anti-gravity led to the
revival of avian culture; 'The Dark of the June' by Gene Wolfe,
about a future where people transform themselves into ghosts to
achieve immortality; 'Flies by Night', by Lisa Tuttle and Steven
Utley, about a woman who sheds her cocoon to become her life's
fantasy: a fly.  (7.5)

     *THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR #12.  Terry Carr, ed.
Timescape.  Not the best BEST.  No stories of the caliber of Vance's
'Rumfuddle' in #3, or Wolfe's 'The Eyeflash Miracles' in #6, and I
expect Carr to come up with the ones I missed, like these.  Still
some nice stories, though: 'The Pope of the Chimps' by Robert
Silverberg, examines the peculiar relationship between animal
behavior researchers and the creatures they study; 'Souls' by Joanna
Russ, a kind of hard-edged Zenna Henderson story with depth
(surprised me considerably); 'Understanding Human Behavior' by Tom
Disch, a course in modern culture for 'erasees', people who have had
their pasts surgically removed, like an appendix; 'Firewatch' by
Connie Willis, a time-travel story with an old-fashioned plot, but
handled well.  I was rather disappointed by the Benford story
'Relativistic Effects' (a reworking of Anderson's TAU ZERO with
equally wooden characters but a fancy style) and the Le Guin story
'Sur' (another too-good-to-be-true feminist tract, about South
American housewives who discover the South Pole but are too nice to
spoil the game for Amundsen and Scott).  I should say that I thought
Anderson's 'The Saturn Game' in #11 revolted me even more than these
stories and I believe it went on to win an award, so there's no
predicting some people's tastes...  (5.0)

     *COLLECTED FANTASIES.  Avram Davidson (John Silbersack, ed.).
Berkeley.  I am a hopeless Avram Davidson addict and I bought this
collection even though I have seen most of the stories in it before.
Oh well; if you haven't 'found' Davidson yet, FANTASIES is a good
place to start.  The stories date from 1955 to 1977 and contain some
true classics of Avramiana: 'Sacheverell', 'Help! I Am Dr. Morris
Goldpepper' (dentist SF which predates Piers Anthony's inferior but
still funny PROSTHO PLUS), 'Or All the Seas With Oysters' (a fantasy
story that won the Hugo, and deserved it), 'Sources of the Nile'
(Ah!  I can't BELIEVE this one escaped getting an award, see Richard
Lupoff's WHAT IF? collection to find out more about it), and 'The
Golem' (about -- you guessed it -- the problems of golems).  Also
some hard to find older stories, like 'The Lord of Central Park',
witty, nutty stuff, 'The Certificate', a little chiller about alien
invasion, 'The Cobblestones of Saratoga Street', about two little
old ladies who save a cobblestoned street from destruction (but not
because they are cobblestone fanciers), and 'Faed-Out', a story
about a not-quite-dead talking picture star.  Plus one of his more
recent 'British Hidalgo' stories, 'Manatee Gal Won't You Come Out
Tonight', a funny and discursive tale about lonely men and manatees.
Buy it, buy it.  (9.5)

     THE WOLVES OF MEMORY.  George Alec Effinger.  Berkeley.  I hate
to stigmatize a writer by saying that he or she hasn't written
anything as enjoyable as their first novel, but in the case of
George Alec Effinger I have to say that none of his novels has been
as much fun as WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME.  I am still waiting for him
to produce a book that has as much as half the imagination and
invention as ENTROPY, or characters that are even a fraction as
believable and engrossing.  Having said that, I am willing to admit
that THE WOLVES OF MEMORY is a much better book than its immediate
predecessors, although it is still disappointing in some ways.
Effinger still maintains the same annoying distance from his
characters and has the same annoying habit of re-using names and
backgrounds of his protagonists, in this case Sandor Courane, a man
who is so foolish and incompetent that the central computer which
runs Earth, named TECT, decides that he is unfit for human society
and exiles him to a planet called Home.  As we learn through
flashbacks, Home is a lovely but boring prison which has the
unfortunate feature that everyone who has ever been sent to it has
died of a disease that slowly eradicates one's memory, producing
both retrograde and anterograde amnesia.  This rather bleak locale
is the scene for some amusing black humor in which the antics of the
computer TECT gradually become more and more funny and irrational,
like a character from Beckett.  In the end you have to wonder
whether Courane's death means anything to you (is it, perhaps,
merely entropy?); to me, it did, in a strange way.  Read this if you
have a strong intellectual stomach. (6.0)

     *IDLE PLEASURES.  George Alec Effinger.  Berkeley.  This book
is subtitled 'Science Fiction Stories About Sports', but it really
is a collection of Effinger stories, not to be mistaken for anything
else.  Most of these stories are good and some of them are really
good, with that special touch of insanity that sometimes makes me
think Effinger is a refugee from THE TWILIGHT ZONE.  'Naked to the
Invisible Eye' is about a pitcher from Venezuela who spells an end
to the modern game of baseball; 'From Downtown at the Buzzer' is
about Earth's first contact with aliens, who seem blandly
disinterested in everything except basketball; 'The Exempt' is a
sparkling Sheckleyism which involves a man who is shopping for
alternate universes the way we shop for apartments; 'Heartstop' is
one of Effinger's Gremmage stories, this time about a man who stops
in Gremmage, Pa., and becomes entangled in a game of fairy chess
that brings him to the land of fairies, or psychosis, or both.  Not
Effinger's best collection, but enjoyable nonetheless. (7.5)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Sep 83 1957-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #75
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Sep 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 75

Today's Topics:
              Books - Various Book Reviews, Continued...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 83 5:58:26-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Book Reviews (II)

     Some reviews of my recent reading.  Stars next to titles
indicate collections or anthologies.  All the books are paperbacks,
with the publisher or series title shown.  Ratings are 0-10: 0 = 'I
don't know why I bought this trash,' 5 = 'Readable but
disappointing,' 7.5 = 'I liked it (but I don't know about other
people),' 10 = 'Kill for this book.'

     CONTROL.  William Goldman.  Dell.  Over the past several years
William Goldman has developed a flair for engrossing (and
best-selling) thrillers with interesting characters and witty
dialogue.  I sort of wish he would do another book like THE PRINCESS
BRIDE (a hysterically funny parody of romance and adventure novels
-- highly recommended) but I'll take what I can get.  In this case I
got CONTROL, another novel in the thriller vein -- which is part of
its problem, because it is just a vein; the book can't seem to
decide whether it is a police novel, a secret-agencies-of-the-US-
government paranoia thriller with fantasy sprinkled in like Stephen
King's FIRESTARTER, a historical romance or (yes) a science fiction
novel.  It has cliches from ALL of these genres and yet doesn't
firmly belong to any of them; they don't cohere in any comfortable
way.  Despite this niggling flaw, CONTROL is quite readable and it
kept my attention very thoroughly.  The book has an amazing
narrative trick which I don't want to give away by explaining too
much of the plot, but I will say that the science-fiction element
involves a plot to travel back in time and kill Alexander Graham
Bell before he can patent the telephone.  Nice light reading. (7.5)

     *DIFFERENT SEASONS.  Stephen King.  Signet.  King claims that
these stories are not horror fiction; I claim that they are merely
not supernatural horror fiction, except possibly the last story,
'The Breathing Method'.  Despite this, or perhaps because of it, the
stories are excellent.  Together, I think the stories in this book
are better than anything King has done previously; while he has done
stuff that is scarier (see especially his short novel 'The Mist' in
the anthology DARK FORCES), none of it is as nicely structured and
intellectually entertaining as this.  'Rita Hayworth and Shawshank
Redemption' is a prison story with lots of local color, stimulating
characters and an amazing breakout.  'Apt Pupil' is the story of how
an all-American adolescent discovers that he lives down the block
from an ex-Nazi concentration camp commandant in hiding under an
assumed name; the boy is disappointed to find that the old man is a
bit of a soak instead of an evil murderous SS officer, but in time
he helps the fellow to regain some of his past glory.  'The Body' is
an homage to pre-adolescence, but doesn't suffer from excessive
sentimentality.  A group of boys sets off to find the body of a man
who has reputedly been run over by a train; they are innocently
eager to see what a real dead body looks like, and they almost find
out the hard way.  'The Breathing Method' is unusual for King, in
both style and substance; it is a story within a story, about a
mysterious club where the upper crust meet to tell stories to one
another, and the story one man tells about the curious tragedy which
befalls a pregnant woman to whom he has taught 'the breathing
method' of delivery.  Reminds me of Fritz Leiber, somewhat.
Recommended. (9.0)

     THE WORLD AND THORINN.  Damon Knight.  Berkeley.  It's nice to
see Damon Knight with a new novel, even if this novel is really
'old' -- the first part is based on material he wrote some 15 years
ago.  This novel tells the story of Thorinn Goryatson, a child
cripple who lives in the land of Hovenskar, in a region so far north
that it is possible to see the pole, called 'Snorri's Pipe', 'so
tall that it seems to prick the sky like a needle; and around it the
sky turns, half light and half dark.  Therefore at high noon there
is an eye of darkness peering over the rim of Hovenskar, and at
midnight an eye of brightness.' Does this capture your curiosity? It
caught mine -- THE WORLD AND THORINN is no ordinary fantasy novel;
beneath the veneer it is purest science fiction, an excellent
example of the 'classic' style.  When suddenly the world shakes and
Snorri's Pipe begins to roar and pieces of the sky break off and
fall to the ground like frostflakes, Thorinn's adoptive father puts
a curse on Thorinn and seals him within a well as an offering to
Snorri.  The curse says, 'Go down;' and Thorinn goes down, through a
hole at the bottom of the well, into the Underworld where dwell
mysterious beasts and strange peoples and magic engines.  Down, down
he goes, ever deeper to the center of the world; and what he finds
at the end of his quest is beyond all expectation.  The novel
suffers a bit from its episodic format, somewhat like disconnected
stories, but by and large it is quite satisfying. (8.5)

     *CHANGEWAR.  Fritz Leiber.  Ace.  This is a collection of
stories that are related in theme and subject matter to Leiber's
Hugo-winning novel, THE BIG TIME.  It seems that there are two
factions struggling for control of Time, the Snakes and the Spiders.
Neither side is particularly good or evil; both are prepared to go
great lengths to achieve their aims.  Their method is to change the
past so that certain events occur or do not occur, leading in the
future to events favorable to the changing side or unfavorable to
the enemy.  The idea is interesting, but only one of the stories is
executed in an interesting way: 'No Great Magic', which tells of a
traveling company of theatrical players who REALLY travel; this
story is a kind of 'prequel' to THE BIG TIME.  The other stories are
written in a rather cute, gabby style that never really achieves
believability.  The story 'The Oldest Soldier' is perhaps the best
of them; it's about a man who has retired from a career as a
mercenary in the Second World War (and the Napoleonic Wars, and the
Second Colonial War of Mars vs. the Earth and Moon), who discovers
that there is no retirement from a war where the enemy can track you
through time.  Leiber has done better stuff than this, I'm afraid.
(6.5)

     *MEMOIRS OF A SPACE TRAVELER.  Stanislaw Lem, translated from
the Polish by Joel Stern and Maria Swiecicka-Ziemianek, with
illustrations by the author.  Harcourt Brace Jovanovich.  This book
forms a set with THE STAR DIARIES and THE FUTUROLOGICAL CONGRESS,
being the collected works of the fictional space traveler, social
observer, futurologist and all-around nice guy, Ijon Tichy.  In
fact, this book and THE STAR DIARIES were published as one volume in
the original Polish.  These stories are just as fantastically funny
and thought-provoking as those in THE STAR DIARIES, and I fail to
understand why they weren't all published at once.  In 'The
Eighteenth Voyage' Tichy is responsible for creating the universe
(but the job is bungled); in 'The Twenty-fourth Voyage' the state is
threatened by 'disorder and disregard for the law,' so it
commissions a Machine to bring 'perfect and absolute order,' with
results which any computer programmer can predict.  In 'Further
Reminiscences of Ijon Tichy', Tichy remains on Earth and finds that
adventure may be encountered even in one's living room.  I won't
spoil these five little gems by giving away their plots, except to
note that the last one is subtitled 'The Washing Machine Tragedy'
and it deals with the end of life as we know it.  In
'Doctor Diagoras' Tichy finds a man who has created not one but two
unique life forms which appear to communicate with each other but have
no apparent means of communication which the poor Doctor's experiments
can uncover.  'Let Us Save the Universe: An Open Letter From Ijon
Tichy' is a public service announcement where the service is pure
silliness, with illustrations.  What can I say?  No one else is Ijon
Tichy. (9.0)

     *A PERFECT VACUUM.  Stanislaw Lem, translated from the Polish
by Michael Kandel.  Harcourt Brace Jovanovich.  This book is so good
it leaves me speechless.  Well, almost.  The device of the book is
that it is a collection of reviews of nonexistent books.  This makes
it extremely difficult to review properly, of course, and the task
is not made any easier by the fact that the very first review in the
book is a review of the book itself!  How does one cope with such
subterfuge?  Willingly, and with much amusement in my case.  I will
make a stab at describing a few of these pieces without giving any
of the good parts away: 'Gigamesh' is a review of a book that
outwakes Finnegan; 'Gruppenfuehrer Louis XVI' is a review of a novel
that tells how a Nazi squad leader named Taudlitz becomes king of
'Parisia', a copy of France in the midst of the Brazilian jungle;
'Being, Inc.' is a review of a story about the ultimate consequence
of the existence of companies who can make your dreams come true;
'Non Serviam' is a review of the latest report on the cruel science
of 'personetics', the study of intelligences that are created within
universes built by computer simulations; 'The New Cosmogony' is a
speech by a recipient of the Nobel Prize describing the work of his
predecessors which led him to conclude that the physical properties
of the universe are a consequence of a game being played by
incredibly ancient and patient beings.  This book may seem too
literary to some and too philosophical to others, but for me it
captures the spirit of the best of science fiction. (10.0)

[A question: There is also apparently a book by Lem called IMAGINARY
MAGNITUDE that consists of introductions to (as opposed to reviews
of) nonexistent books.  Does anyone know if this has appeared in
English, and if so, from what publisher?  A note: 'Non Serviam'
appears in THE MIND'S I by Hofstadter and Dennett, along with a
review (!?) by the editors.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Sep 83 1958-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #76
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS





SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Sep 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 76

Today's Topics:
              Books - Various Book Reviews, Continued...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 83 5:59:35-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Book Reviews (III)

     Some reviews of my recent reading.  Stars next to titles
indicate collections or anthologies.  All the books are paperbacks,
with the publisher or series title shown.  Ratings are 0-10: 0 = 'I
don't know why I bought this trash,' 5 = 'Readable but
disappointing,' 7.5 = 'I liked it (but I don't know about other
people),' 10 = 'Kill for this book.'

     THE WAR HOUND AND THE WORLD'S PAIN.  Michael Moorcock.
Timescape.  This book comes with some pretty heavy recommendations
from the major magazines, and I was interested to see if it could
overcome my prejudices, because I believe that the last word in
science fiction novels about Hell was James Blish's peculiar
bipartite novel, BLACK EASTER/THE DAY AFTER JUDGMENT.  (Yes, I know
what the dictionary says, but my [British] edition consistently
spells it 'judgment'.) I am happy to say that WAR HOUND is very good
and rather than diminishing each other, the Blish and Moorcock works
actually complement each other.  WAR HOUND takes place in the year
1631 in Germany and various other places on and off this world,
including both Heaven and Hell.  Europe lies in a chaotic, burning
shambles, torn by religious war, factionalism and banditry; a
certain captain of mercenary soldiers, named Elric -- I mean Ulrich
-- von Bek, escapes a burning city only to wander into the precincts
of Hell.  There he is accosted by Lucifer and charged with an
arduous task, in return for which he will receive his soul: find and
bring back the Holy Grail, which is the Cure for the World's Pain.
Lucifer believes that if He recovers the Grail He will be rewarded
by God with the restoration of His position in Heaven before the
Fall.  Although the adventures of von Bek on his quest are
interesting and fun, more interesting is what happens when his quest
is resolved.  Recommended.  (9.0)

     *DREAM MAKERS, v. 1 & 2.  Charles Platt.  Berkley.  These two
books are collections of interviews with science fiction writers.
There are a total of 57 interviews with an entire spectrum of
writers, and although Platt states that he will not interview
writers whose work he hates or who write fantasy, he manages to
cover a broad part of the field.  He goes from Jerry Pournelle and
Keith Laumer to Tom Disch and Joanna Russ, not forgetting classic
writers like Asimov, Clarke, Sturgeon, Pohl, Anderson and (almost
unbelievably) your friend and mine, L. Ron Hubbard.  Platt is not a
particularly great interviewer but he frequently has help (and not
infrequently, trouble) from the writers themselves.  Some of the
interviews are really amazing, and if you just pick one of the books
up off the rack I suggest you peruse them: James Tiptree, Jr., also
known as Alice Sheldon, who tells an incredible and maybe even true
story about her life and work; Phil Dick, who discusses his strange
experience of epiphany; Stephen King, who has a hilarious way of
deprecating his tastes in literature and movies; L. Ron Hubbard, who
is a science-fictional Howard Hughes.  (There is a picture of James
Tiptree, Jr. on the back of v. 2 -- try to identify it without
cheating!) I should warn you that while the first book is just
$2.75, the second one was made a trade paperback for no good reason
and it costs $6.95.  I like the books, though others may be less
interested.  (7.5)

     *AN INFINITE SUMMER.  Christopher Priest.  Dell.  I thought
that Christopher Priest's last collection, REAL-TIME WORLD, was
fairly weak, but this collection more than makes up for it.  The
Dream Archipelago is located on a planet that is both like and
unlike Earth, and it serves as the setting for several stories by
Priest, including in this volume 'Whores', which is a rather vicious
horror story about psychedelic warfare; 'The Negation', which is
about an encounter of a soldier and the author of his favorite book
(named, naturally, THE AFFIRMATION); and 'The Watched', an extremely
paranoid story about a mysterious native tribe called the Qataari
and a man who cannot resist secretly observing their strange rites.
The other two novelettes deal with Earth in a quasi-Victorian style
reminiscent of Wells.  The excellent title story is about a man who
falls victim to a peculiar art form associated with time travel.
The equally excellent 'Palely Loitering' is about a man who crosses
the Tomorrow Bridge in Flux Channel Park and meets a beautiful woman
and her peculiar suitors.  These stories exhibit both strong writing
and good science fictional ideas. (8.5)

[Note: Priest has apparently written a novel about the Dream
Archipelago called, naturally, THE AFFIRMATION.  Has anyone seen any
editions of this in the US? I would love to get a hold of one.]

     INVERTED WORLD.  Christopher Priest.  Pan.  This novel was
actually written some time ago (1974); I re-read it this summer when
I bought my fourth copy of it (the previous three copies having
disappeared due to my lending them out...  sigh).  The novel has one
incredible supposition, namely that there exists a planet which is
not a sphere but instead a hyperboloid with infinitely long spires
(the 'north' and 'south' poles) and an infinite circumference (the
'equator').  Across this curious surface there moves a city called
Earth, and the novel is the story of one of its citizens, Helward
Mann, who comes of age in the guild of Future Surveyors and makes a
discovery that could mean the end of Earth's long wanderings.  The
consequences of the unique shape of the planet are worked out in
fantastic detail, and at the end of the novel the whole crazy thing
fits together.  A delightful novel; at least as good as his
well-executed previous novel FUGUE FOR A DARKENING ISLAND, and much
less depressing.  (For some reason this Pan edition leaves out the
acknowledgement in the NEL edition which describes Priest's debt to
a computer model...  Pity.)  (8.5)

     *THE 57TH FRANZ KAFKA.  Rudy Rucker.  Ace.  Rudy Rucker is an
insane mathematics professor who writes drug-crazed science fiction
in order to pervert the young people of this nation.  With this
excellent recommendation you should be prepared for some very good
stories, and there are several in this book.  We get: 'A New Golden
Age', about a mathematician who invents a machine that can play
mathematical theorems as musical melodies, with the intent that this
will allow laymen to appreciate the beauty of mathematics; 'Jumpin'
Jack Flash', INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS seen from the snatcher's
point of view;'The Indian Rope Trick Explained' where Charlie Raumer
escapes his testy wife and vile children by climbing up the ether;
'Tales of Houdini', in which we discover that Houdini never showed
us his best tricks; 'Inertia', in which Harry and Fletch invent a
machine that absorbs inertia and set off for interstellar space in a
converted Ford station wagon; 'Message Found in a Copy of FLATLAND',
in which we learn just how Edwin Abbott was inspired to write his
book; and best of all, the deranged 'Pac-Man', in which someone
REALLY wins the infamous video game... (8.5)

     SOFTWARE.  Rudy Rucker.  Ace (?).  This is an interesting book.
It's not quite satisfying, but I say that not because it lacks
substance; in fact it is jam-packed with humor, adventure, suspense
and even philosophy...  the book never relaxes, almost like one of
Alfred Bester's old novels.  The novel takes place sometime in the
next century; many years ago the robots sent to mine the Moon became
sentient and revolted, and currently Earth lives in uneasy peace
with the 'boppers', as the robots call themselves.  Reading over my
last draft of this review I realize that the plot of the novel is
almost unexplainable, but I will say that a significant fraction of
the story deals with an attempt by the 'big' boppers to take over by
absorbing little boppers' software and turning their 'bodies' into
remote manipulators...  The writing is a bit uneven and the end of
the book doesn't really resolve the plot (perhaps a sequel is in the
works?)  but the book is a lot of fun, and quite readable.  An
excerpt from SOFTWARE is reprinted in Hofstadter and Dennett's THE
MIND'S I. (8.0)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Sep 83 1959-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #77
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 9 Sep 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 77

Today's Topics:
              Books - Various Book Reviews, Continued...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 83 6:04:26-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Book Reviews (IV)

     Some reviews of my recent reading.  Stars next to titles
indicate collections or anthologies.  All the books are paperbacks,
with the publisher or series title shown.  Ratings are 0-10: 0 = 'I
don't know why I bought this trash,' 5 = 'Readable but
disappointing,' 7.5 = 'I liked it (but I don't know about other
people),' 10 = 'Kill for this book.'

     *NIFFT THE LEAN.  Michael Shea.  DAW.  Someone showed me a
review from LOCUS which said more or less that this was a very good
book, resembling Vance at his best.  Since I like good Vance I
bought the book.  NIFFT is not a bad book, but I don't think it is a
very good book either.  The main deficiency is the lack of depth to
the characters; the character of Nifft, the master thief, is not
drawn very convincingly, and the remaining characters are merely bit
parts.  A more minor problem is the writing style, which is similar
to Vance in its use of ornate syntax but never manages to emulate
Vance's fluency or consistency.  (Or Vance's facility for inventing
names.)  There is also (sigh) a certain predictability to the plots
of some of the stories.  However the settings of the stories are
well-imagined and there is some fun in exploring the ramifications
of the worlds of Nifft's exploration.  'Come Then, Mortal -- We Will
Seek Her Soul' is a descent into Shea's version of Hell; 'The
Fishing of the Demon-Sea' is perhaps the best story (and longest),
in which Nifft and his friend Barnar are forced to descend into the
domain of the demons in search of a boy who made a mistake in
casting a spell; 'The Goddess in Glass' is about a city where the
tutelary deity is an alien insect six stories tall encased in glass
and is (incorrectly) believed by the citizens to be dead and
mummified. (5.5)

     *THE ROBOT WHO LOOKED LIKE ME.  Robert Sheckley.  Bantam.  This
book is a collection of post-Modern Sheckley; the stories in this
book are newer and less radical than the ones in his collection CAN
YOU FEEL ANYTHING WHEN I DO THIS? but much odder than the Classic
Sheckley of THE PEOPLE TRAP (for example).  Some of the stories are
reminiscent of Classic Sheckley but they are all darker in tone and
share a playfulness with style that Classic Sheckley tends to lack.
The title story is almost a Classic Sheckley piece, about a man
whose schedule won't accommodate romance, so he has Snaithe's
Robotorama make a double of him who can court his selected future
wife without interfering in his business transactions.  'Voices' is
a superb little shocker whose simple premise is, 'Every man must
follow the dictates of his own inner Voice.' 'Zirn Left Unguarded,
The Jenghik Palace in Flames, Jon Westerley Dead' is the last space
opera novel (and is blessedly short for the genre, at 6 pages).  In
'Welcome to the Standard Nightmare', a spaceman meets an alien
civilization and conquers it for Earth single-handed -- or does he?
'The Never-Ending Western Movie' sounds like a joke but in fact it
is a serious story about a retired actor who is called on to play
his part just one more time in a 'real-life' Western.  'What Is
Life?' is a completely unserious treatment of the question whose
answer isn't 'a bowl of cherries'.  'Is THAT What People Do?' is a
nasty bit of paranoia about a voyeur who finds a rather peculiar
pair of binoculars.  I still get annoyed by Sheckley's attitudes
toward women, which don't appear to have changed much over the years
(his female characters are always out to marry the male protagonist,
settle down in New Jersey and have babies), but on the other hand he
has published a fair amount of this stuff in Playboy, Penthouse and
even Cosmo so I expect the editors like it.  By and large this is a
good collection though. (8.0)

     DRAMOCLES.  Robert Sheckley.  Holt, Rinehart and Winston.  (I
cheated -- this book is still in hardback edition (and not at all
cheap) but I decided to add it to these reviews anyway...) This
novel is subtitled 'An Intergalactic Soap Opera', and while it is a
parody of soap operas it is also a parody of lots of other things
too, with special attention given to science fiction and its fans.
In his funniest material, Sheckley skillfully skewers the Baedeker's
descriptions of foreign cultures found in Burroughs and most space
opera which are always careful to mention something unusual so that
you'll have at least one thing to remember besides the name.  I
can't resist quoting at least one passage:

'The inhabitants of Ystrad, the Ystradgnu, were a non-Glormish
people of considerable antiquity.  They were a gentle folk, and
hospitable to strangers, except on the occasions when they needed a
sacrifice for one of their deities.  Their principal exports were
poetry and songs, which were in great demand among the races of the
galaxy with no poetry or songs of their own.  The annotation and
analyzation of the Ystradgnu arts provided an entire industry for
the analogists of the neighboring island of Rungx.

'Most of the Ystradgnu made their living by grazing herds of
porcupines on their green hillsides and exporting the quills to the
Uurks, a nonhuman people who had never disclosed why they needed
them.

'The Ystradgnu had a method of ground transportation unlike
anything else on Glorm.  Travel between points on Ystrad was
effected by trampoline networks.  The trampolines, spaced an average
of fifteen feet apart, criss-crossed the countryside.  The
trampolines were made of heavy canvas and dyed in various bright
colors -- though by ancient tradition never yellow -- and a large
part of Ystrad's revenue went to their upkeep...'

     You might imagine that it would be impossible to build a story
out of this lunacy, but every time you think the whole apparatus of
the novel is going to collapse in tatters, a bizarre plot twist
occurs and leaves the previous problems behind.  In fact it is
possible to establish that there is a protagonist, King Dramocles of
the planet Glorm, son of King Otho the Weird, who has reached his
fiftieth birthday without making much of a name for himself; that
Dramocles begins receiving messages from himself which he planted
thirty years before and then erased from his mind; that these
messages purport to spell Dramocles' destiny, ordering him to start
an interplanetary war; and that while things aren't turning out they
way Dramocles expects them to, he IS making a name for himself...  I
kept the household up with my uncontrollable laughing until 3 AM
last night, trying to finish the book -- I suggest that other
readers choose an earlier hour to start on it.  I think this is by
far Sheckley's best novel. (9.0)

     *MAJIPOOR CHRONICLES.  Robert Silverberg.  Bantam.  This is a
collection of stories set in the world of Silverberg's popular
novel, LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE.  People who adored LORD VALENTINE'S
CASTLE will love MAJIPOOR CHRONICLES; people who merely liked the
novel may find these stories somewhat annoying.  The book has a
frame-story, about a young boy who discovers how he can access the
master vault of all the memory-recordings of everyone who ever lived
on Majipoor, and uses these recordings to relive the pasts of ten
people.  Some of the people are interesting, most are not; in an
attempt at realism, perhaps, Silverberg has deprived most of these
stories of any real dramatic impact.  The stories with a moral tend
to fall flat when nothing but the moral exists to support them: two
stories are about sex with aliens, two are about poor girls who make
good, two are about men who kill (one a murderer, the other a
soldier) and feel dishonorable...  you get the picture.  The only
two stories I felt much liking for were 'In The Fifth Year of the
Voyage', about an attempt to circumnavigate Majipoor, and 'The
Desert of Stolen Dreams', which takes place on the strange southern
island of Suvrael.  Borrow this one rather than buy it... (6.0)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Sep 83 2000-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #78
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 10 Sep 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 78

Today's Topics:
             Books - Various Book  Reviews, Continued...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 83 6:07:58-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Book Reviews (V)

     Some reviews of my recent reading.  Stars next to titles
indicate collections or anthologies.  All the books are paperbacks,
with the publisher or series title shown.  Ratings are 0-10: 0 = 'I
don't know why I bought this trash,' 5 = 'Readable but
disappointing,' 7.5 = 'I liked it (but I don't know about other
people),' 10 = 'Kill for this book.'

     *OUT OF THE EVERYWHERE.  James Tiptree, Jr.  Del Rey.  Alice
Sheldon puts so much energy into her writing as James Tiptree, Jr.
that you might suspect that she was really in her teens (she's
actually in her sixties): her stories recapture the youthfulness and
vivacity of childhood.  All of the stories in this book are full of
zip and generally enjoyable to read.  'Angel Fix' is a comedy about
the ordinary people who bump into an alien whose flying saucer had a
flat (or did it?).  'The Screwfly Solution' is about a curious
disease that causes men to want to sexually assault and murder women
(it won the Nebula).  'Time-sharing Angel' has a unique solution to
the population problem.  'We Who Stole the DREAM' at first seems to
be a shallow story about the innocent aliens who have been oppressed
by the brutal Earthmen as slaves on a far planet, who discover that
their race exists as a full-blown interstellar empire on the other
side of the galaxy; they steal a ship and try to fly away to this
natural-foods peace-loving utopia, a classic leftist fairy tale,
except they find out something when they land which takes all the
steam out of the fairy-tale aspect.  'Slow Music' is a beautiful but
depressing story about a future Earth on which the human race gives
up living (apparently Sheldon was considering suicide when she wrote
this story).  'Out of the Everywhere' is a story Ted Sturgeon might
have written about a lost interstellar traveller who is forced to
hibernate on our planet and puts pieces of his mind into certain
human beings for safekeeping.  'With Delicate Mad Hands' is about a
woman who dreams of a mysterious voice calling her into space as a
child, grows up to be a spaceship pilot and commits suicide after
killing her rabid commander by flying his ship into the interstellar
void; just before her supplies run out she encounters a strange
planet...  Several of the stories read like adolescent fantasies;
sometimes this detracts from the stories, other times it strengthens
them.  One common factor in the stories is a kind of mysandry, where
men are represented as violent and irrational creatures who seek to
degrade and oppress her peaceful and rational female protagonists.
This is most apparent in 'Your Faces, O My Sisters!  Your Faces
Filled of Light', which is about a housewife who breaks under the
strain of her uncaring husband and falls into the delusion that she
lives in a post-apocalyptic world where all the men have died out
and the world is populated by universally cooperative, helping
'sisters'; she wanders off into the streets of Chicago, where she is
quickly abducted, beaten and raped by brutal thugs.  If like me you
are a man and have a hard time believing that you are a violent and
irrational creature who enjoys humiliating innocent peaceful
rational women then this sort of propaganda will stick in your craw.
But these attitudes, like Sheckley's, can be overlooked in view of
the general freshness and fun of the stories.  (8.5)

     THE SNOW QUEEN.  Joan D. Vinge.  Dell.  This novel won the Hugo
award a few years ago.  It certainly has all the elements for a
blockbuster novel: it is long (537 pages), loaded with characters,
set in an exotic location, and filled with passionate romance, and
it has a happy ending to boot.  Wicked Arienrhod, the Snow Queen of
the planet Tiamat, desires to perpetuate her rule past the end of
Winter into the Summer.  Summer is a both a time and a culture: it
is a time when the multiple star system of Tiamat brings the planet
into a much warmer period, melting the ice covering most of the
northern latitudes and at the same time preventing interstellar
travel through the Gate, a black hole in the system; and it is an
aboriginal culture that lives on some of the equatorial islands and
traditionally moves north to occupy the seat of government during
warm periods.  Arienrhod plants a clone of hers as a child among the
Summers, expecting to train her as a double who can take the throne
when the Festival of the Change occurs.  The daughter's name is (get
this) Moon Dawntreader Summer, and she is desperately in love with
her 'brother', named (get this) Sparks Dawntreader Summer.  The two
of them want to go off and marry but Moon feels the extrasensory
attraction of the Sibyls and eventually decides to become a
priestess, while Sparks goes to the capital city of (get this)
Carbuncle to become a nasty techie.  Of course Sparks becomes
Arienrhod's boyfriend and the rest of the novel is about Moon trying
to win said boyfriend back from Arienrhod.  I'm sorry to sound so
sarcastic but I expected more from this book, more from a book that
won the Hugo award.  The writing is occasionally awkward and
sometimes descends to the sappiness of a mock romantic novel:

'Arienrhod studied him silently; he felt her measure and weigh
with her eyes.  He thought a shadow passed across her face, before
she nodded.  "Challenge him, then.  But if you do, and fail, I'll
call you a vain little braggart and make love to him on your grave."
She caught the winking pendant and drew him down on top of her.

'"I won't fail."  He found her lips again, hungrily.  "And if I
can't be your only lover, I'll be the best."'

     There is no depth to the plot or character, although the
setting is nicely drawn (especially the attention to language and
social status).  Great lengths are gone to in pointing out just how
noble and virtuous the good guys are and how cruel and nasty the bad
guys are.  Sparks starts out as a good guy and I had great hopes
that he would turn out to be a bad guy, because he spends half the
novel being corrupted by Arienrhod and cultivated into what I was
hoping was a despicable brute, but when Sparks reunites with Moon he
flies into tears and says he'll never do it again, and Moon BELIEVES
him.  Argh.  The ending is particularly annoying -- the bad guys are
foiled with implausible ease and everybody falls in love and goes
home happy.  The book is just incredibly insubstantial; I am really
disappointed. (5.0)

     EYE OF CAT.  Roger Zelazny.  Timescape(?).  (This one is out on
loan; I'll do my best to keep the details straight...) I've been
disappointed by Roger Zelazny over the last several years; the only
novel of the 'Amber' series that I enjoyed was the first one, and
the only other recent novel of his which I felt like buying was
DOORWAYS IN THE SAND, which turned out to be light (very light)
entertainment.  I keep hoping he will do another novel as good as
LORD OF LIGHT, a favorite of mine since high school, but he never
seems to put it together.  EYE OF CAT is not as good as LORD OF
LIGHT but I think it is much better than DOORWAYS IN THE SAND.
William Blackhorse Singer is an anachronism: he was born a Navajo
Indian at the last time when it was possible to be brought up a true
Navajo, and he is 150 years old as a result of time dilation.  His
mind works two ways -- he is both a sophisticated master of
technology and a primitive who acts with the mental discipline of a
medicine man.  Renowned as a hunter, he is recruited by the
government to hunt down a religious fanatic from another planet,2; if Singer can stay alive for seven days while Cat



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Sep 83 2000-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #79
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 11 Sep 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 79

Today's Topics:
              Conventions - Convention Listings (2 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat,  3 Sep 83 23:33:36 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay

     OK, OK !!

     Stop the mail, you people, the con list will be out as soon as I
can get it in.  I think I'll put it out in pieces, like by region or
something.  So stop the mail, and thanks for letting me know that is
some life out there in convention land.

                Thanks all,
                        Dave at ETC.

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  4 Sep 83 15:54:37 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay



                              BEN'S HAMMER
                             Western region
                          as of 20 August, 1983

Date                    What
-----------------------------------------------------------

Sept 1-5, 1983

Constellation, 41st World Science Fiction Convention.  Baltimore
Convention Center, Maryland.
Info: box 1046 Baltimore, MD 21203

Sept 9-11, 1983

CopperCon3, Phoenix Hilton Hotel, Arizona (at Central & Adams).
$17/til Sept 8, $20/door.
Info: box 11743, Phoenix, AZ 85061 (602)-968-5749

Sept 23-25, 1983

MosCon V, Cavanaugh's Motor Inn, Moscow, Idaho. $15.00/door.
Info: MosCon V, P.O. box 8521, Moscow, Idaho 83843

Sept 24, 1983

Fun-Con, Visilia Players Ice House Theatre
Info: Chris Mackey, P.O. box 44, Ivanhoe, CA 93235

Oct 7-9, 1983

Fall Sci-Fi Convention, Griswald's Inn, 1500 S. Raymond Fullerton, CA.
Info: FPCI, 1855 W. Main St., Alhambra, CA 91802 (213)337-7947

Oct 8-9, 1983

CreationCon, Las Vegas, Nevada.
Info: Same as above entry.

Hallow'een 1983
Weekend

Pan-Galacticon (No connection with Galacticon)
Info: P.O. box 1099, Westminster, CA 92683.

Oct 28-30, 1983

World Fantasy Convention '83, Marriot Hotel, Chicago, Ill.  $35
Info: Box 423, Oak Forest, IL 60452

Nov 11-13, 1983

Orycon, Hilton Hotel, Portland, OR
Info: Box 14727, Portland OR, 97214. (505)283-0802

Nov 25-27, 1983

Loscon 10, Pasadena Hilton Hotel, $15/till Nov 1, $17/door.
Info: LASFS, 11513 Burbank Blvd., No.Hollywood CA 91601

Jan 20-22, 1984

RustyCon, SeaTac Hyatt House, Seattle, Washington $16/till Dec 31,
&18/after.
Info: Box 47132, Seattle, WA 98146

Jan 27-29, 1984

CORFLU, Claremont Resort Hotel, Berkeley, CA.  $24
Info: 263 8th Ave., San Fransisco, CA 94118

Feb 18-20, 1984

Capricon I, Torrance Hollyday Inn Info: CapriCon I, 425 W. Alondra
Blvd., Gardena CA 90248.  (213)324-7980 or (714)995-3083

Apr 20-22, 1984

Costume Con, San Diego area somewhere.
Info: Fantasy Costumers Guild,P.O. box 1947, Spring Valley CA
92077.

Apr 20-22, 1984

Third Annual Space Development Conference, Sheraton Palace, San
Fransisco, CA
Info: 1275 4th St., #424, Santa Rosa, CA 95404

Apr 28-30, 1984

Contact: Cultures of the Imagination, Hollyday Inn, Santa Cruz, CA
Info: Jim Funaro, Dept. of Anthropology, Cabrillo College, Aptos, Ca
95003

March 2-4, 1984

Bayfilk 2, Red Lion Inn, San Jose, CA $17/till Jan 1, 1984, $20/after.
Info: Off Centaur Productions, Box 424, El Cerrito CA 94530

June 22-24, 1984

ShadowCon VII, Pacifica Hotel, Culver City, CA
Info: Barbara Fister-Liltz, 8601 W. Cermak Road North Riverside,
IL 60546

June 30-July 3, 1984 WesterCon 37, Marriot Hotel, Portland, Oregon
Info: box 12728 Portland, OR 97212 (or) box 16155 Portland, OR 97216
(503)761-8768

Aug 30-Sept 3,  1984

42nd World Science Fiction Convention Anaheim Convention Center (near
Disneyland), $40/til Dec 31 '83, Higher later
Info: LA-Con II, c/o LASFS, Box 8442, Van Nuys CA 91404, (or) 11513
Burbank Blvd., North Hollywood, CA 91601

For further con info, Please send stamp(s) to:

                Ben's Hammer, P.O. box 1226, Lawndale, CA 90260

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 83 0028-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #80
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 11 Sep 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 80

Today's Topics:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun,  4 Sep 83 16:25:50 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay

                           BEN'S HAMMER
                          Central Region
                        As of Sept 4, 1983


Date                    What
-------------------------------------------------------------

Aug 20-21, 1983

The Dallas Dark Shadows Convention Dunfey Dallas Hotel, 3800 W.
Northeast Highway at Love Field, Dallas, TX 75220.  $18
Info: SASE to: c/o Dale Clark, 11518 Desdemona Drive, Dallas, TX 75228

Sept 3-4, 1983

StarCon Denver, Stouffer's Denver Inn, Colorado
Info: SASE to: P.O. box 19184, Denver, CO 80219

Aug 26-28, 1983

Bubonicon 15, Albuquerque Mountan View Inn, New Mexico.  $10/till July
20, $15/door.
Info: 3405 21 Ave.SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124

Sept 9-11, 1983

Copper Con 3, Phoenix Hilton Hotel (Central & Adams) $17/til Sept 8,
$20/door.
Info: box 11743, Phoenix, AZ 85061 (206)968-5749

Sept 23-25, 1983

Moscon V, Cavanaugh's Motor Inn, Moscow, Idaho, $15
Info: Moscon V, P.O. box 8521, Moscow, Idaho 83843

Sept 30-Oct 2, 1983

Star Trek Dallas '83, Hyatt Regency Hotel, Dallas TX $15
Info: Syndicate Inc., P.O. box 31305, Dallas, TX 75231

Oct 28-30, 1983

World Fantasy Convention 1983, Chicago Marriot O'Hare Hotel, IL.  $35.

Info: P.O. box 423, Oak Forest, IL 60452

Nov 25-27, 1983

Con-Tex, Southwest Hilton Hotel, Houston, TX $12/til Oct. 31,
$15/door.
Info: SASE to: Friends of Fandom Inc., box 772473 Houston, TX 77215

Aug 30-Sept 3, 1984

42nd World Science Fiction Convention (LA-Con II) Anaheim Convention
Center, CA (near Disneyland) $40/til Dec 31 '83, Higher later
Info: LA-Con II, c/o LASFS, box 8442, Van Nuys, Ca 91409, (or) 11513
Burbank Blvd., North Hollywood, CA 91601

For more con info, Please send stamp(s) to:
                Ben's Hammer
                P.O. box 1226
                Lawndale CA 90260

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 83 0028-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #80
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 11 Sep 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 80

Today's Topics:
             Conventions - Convention Listing Continued!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun,  4 Sep 83 16:25:50 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay

                           BEN'S HAMMER
                          Central Region
                        As of Sept 4, 1983


Date                    What
-------------------------------------------------------------

Aug 20-21, 1983

The Dallas Dark Shadows Convention Dunfey Dallas Hotel, 3800 W.
Northeast Highway at Love Field, Dallas, TX 75220.  $18
Info: SASE to: c/o Dale Clark, 11518 Desdemona Drive, Dallas, TX 75228

Sept 3-4, 1983

StarCon Denver, Stouffer's Denver Inn, Colorado
Info: SASE to: P.O. box 19184, Denver, CO 80219

Aug 26-28, 1983

Bubonicon 15, Albuquerque Mountan View Inn, New Mexico.  $10/till July
20, $15/door.
Info: 3405 21 Ave.SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124

Sept 9-11, 1983

Copper Con 3, Phoenix Hilton Hotel (Central & Adams) $17/til Sept 8,
$20/door.
Info: box 11743, Phoenix, AZ 85061 (206)968-5749

Sept 23-25, 1983

Moscon V, Cavanaugh's Motor Inn, Moscow, Idaho, $15
Info: Moscon V, P.O. box 8521, Moscow, Idaho 83843

Sept 30-Oct 2, 1983

Star Trek Dallas '83, Hyatt Regency Hotel, Dallas TX $15
Info: Syndicate Inc., P.O. box 31305, Dallas, TX 75231

Oct 28-30, 1983

World Fantasy Convention 1983, Chicago Marriot O'Hare Hotel, IL.  $35.

Info: P.O. box 423, Oak Forest, IL 60452

Nov 25-27, 1983

Con-Tex, Southwest Hilton Hotel, Houston, TX $12/til Oct. 31,
$15/door.
Info: SASE to: Friends of Fandom Inc., box 772473 Houston, TX 77215

Aug 30-Sept 3, 1984

42nd World Science Fiction Convention (LA-Con II) Anaheim Convention
Center, CA (near Disneyland) $40/til Dec 31 '83, Higher later
Info: LA-Con II, c/o LASFS, box 8442, Van Nuys, Ca 91409, (or) 11513
Burbank Blvd., North Hollywood, CA 91601

For more con info, Please send stamp(s) to:
                Ben's Hammer
                P.O. box 1226
                Lawndale CA 90260

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 83 2047-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #82
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Sep 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 82

Today's Topics:
universe numbering
SF & F Survey Continued ...
SF for Adolescents
looking for an old story
Re: Convention Listings
Re: Elfquest (SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #69)
Re: 'Star Bright'? - (nf)
Dune movie info
Adventures of the Starkiller
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 September 1983 22:50 EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN @ MIT-MC>

"I guess I agree with you that there is a possibly infinite number of
alternate realities, although of course there's no way of proving this
(yet). Isn't it exciting to think that places like Middle-Earth,
Melnibone, The Land, or whatever you like, actually exist out there,
as described? Kinda neat, ain't it? Get down, get funky!"

     Exciting, but not true. Infinite does *not* mean all possible
universes.  For example, a universe which requires physically
impossible things (physics physical, that is...) won't be in the set
of all universes.  Even something which could exist doesn't have to.
Consider, the set of all even integers is infinite, but doesn't
include 3.

                                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 83 17:17:04-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!parks @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: universe numbering

     It has been proposed that alternate universes could be enumerated
by starting at the beginning of time, and recording a bit stream which
showed the outcome of every binary quantum-mechanical 'choice'.  I
don't think this method is either possible or desirable.

     1. Quantum Physics implies that to know the outcome of these
'choices' we must observe them.  By observing them, we will slightly
alter the particles involved, and we are now in a different universe!

     2. The amount of information required to record even a snapshot
of our current universe is colossal, not to mention information back
to the start of time.  There is nothing to theoretically stop you from
recording an infinite amount of information, but it is hardly
practical.

     3. The problem of whose universe is the 'zero' universe and how a
quantum decision can be universally agreed on as 'yes' or 'no' have
already been discussed at length.

     4. Most importantly, if the tree-type alternate universe scheme
is true, then each instant our universe gives rise to innumerable
similar universes.  There must occur events which cancel out previous
choices, giving rise to identical universes with different pasts.  Not
only would there be a tree extending forward of possible futures, but
also a tree of possible pasts!  Certain aspects of operations research
already deal with this (specifically, anything that can be represented
as a Markov Chain).  The binary choice chain would describe a
universe, but different chain could also describe the same (current)
universe.

     This would be just so much blather if I did not have my own
suggestion to solve the problem.  First of all, I do not believe
either the past or the future are important.  A description of the
present is sufficient to describe our universe (under this scheme, our
past or future would count as 'different' universes).

     Second, a limited resolution is adequate.  While the fact that a
coin is face-up (not face-down) in Calcutta actually is different in
two different universes, it isn't important to ME.  If entire
unobserved galaxies were missing in our next-door-universe I could
never tell the difference.  On the other hand, if my mother were green
I could easily notice.

     To steal from previous schemes, I suggest a set of vectors to
describe
'our' universe:

     (particle type, particle state, x-y-z position, x-y-z momentum)

     Probably molecule-sized particles should be sufficient.  I would
start with my brain, describing all the molecules and their state.  A
lower resolution would be sufficient for the rest of my body, and an
even lower one for my friends.  As I expanded out from myself and what
I know of, the density would become extremely low, until we pass earth
and it is incredibly small (do YOU care if the mass of Vega is off by
2% ?).

     For purposes of standardization, we might want to center our
shells of description at some Cross-Time Central base.

     This scheme has the advantages over not needing a central or
reference world.  All operatives can compare their home-descriptions
and find out how 'close' they live to each other.  Returning agents
can be scanned to find out if they are 'close' to the agent that left
(remember: all will be slightly different from when they left --
they've all experienced some time since the last scan).

Vacationing from Hostigos,
Jay Parks
{...,arizona,decvax,hao,ihnp4,sdcsvax,seismo,unc}!kpno!parks

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 83 17:07:04 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: SF & F Survey Continued ...

     Held over by popular demand!  Third record smashing week ...

     Because of various delays, timing problems, and vacations, it
seems reasonable to extend the deadline for the "SF or F Novels of
Literary Merit" survey for a couple more weeks.

     So ... send in a list of those novels that you think are of high
literary quality before September 19th.  Remember, this is not a
"Favorite-Novel-Of-All-Time" survey.  Those of you who have sent in
replies already, thank you.  You need not send them in again.  Of
course, I will compile and publish the results after the deadlline.

     Is there a Tolstoy of SF?

Commodore Perry
Caro.Pa@PARC-MAXC

------------------------------

Date: 10 September 1983 01:57 edt
From: TMPLee.DODCSC at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: SF for Adolescents

     Can anyone point me (us, the list) to a list of good first-time
SF books for kids just starting to read SF?  What brought the question
to mind is that I happened to pick up a book we had bought for our 12
1/2 year old (7th grade) on the recommendation of a summer-school
science-fiction and fantasy course (we have a very progressive school
district here).  The book is SILVER ON THE TREE by Susan Cooper; one
of the DARK IS RISING series -- we bought some of the others, this
just happens to be the one at hand.  Neither he nor I has read it, so
don't know whether its worth it or not.

     I can vaguely remember the first SF books I read -- Asimov's
FOUNDATION set, Arthur Clarke, and I can even remember that when I
read the Tolkien books when they became a collegiate craze that
sometime, perhaps even in grade school, I had read the HOBBIT before
-- the riddles in the dark had obviously impressed my mind at a very
young age because I couldn't remember when exactly I read them but it
was clear to me I had run across them before and with sufficient
impression that it brought back fuzzy memories of the children's room
at the library.  BUT, I can't say that I read enough SF at an early
enough age, or remember doing so, that I could come up with a
"recommended reading list" for kids just starting out.  (I do have to
mention that he has gone through a couple of the Asimov Robot books,
2001 "a bit confusing", and WarGames (laughed at frequent intervals
throughout, perhaps in part because we had just put the modem on our
Apple and because my profession is computer security)).

Ted Lee

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 83 14:47:32-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!philabs!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!bmcg!@Ucb-Vax
Subject: looking for an old story

     Please help:

     I need help in locating an old science fiction story. I've not
had a lot of luck at the book stores, so I'm hoping this letter
strikes a familiar note.

     A number of years ago, probably 25 or so, I read a marvelous
little story that I believe was called `IRONY'. The premise was that a
comic named Hester ordered a robot with a huge memory bank in which to
store jokes. The idea was that the robot would stand off stage with a
teleprompter and feed `ad-libs' to Hester.

     The problem arose when the robot would start grabbing the punch
lines for itself. The hilarious story ended with a frustrated Hester
essentially becoming the robots keeper.  His billing from that point
on was `Lester the Pestered'.

     This was really great stuff. I remember laughing out loud while
reading the story. My current problem is trying to locate the story
again. I don't even remember the name of the author. I believe that it
was anthologized more than once. I would appreciate any help that
anyone out there can give me.

Thank you,

Ron Perloff
17040 Oculto Court
San Diego, CA  19127

..!sdcrdcf!bmcg!rasp

------------------------------

Date: 11-Sep-83 12:34 PDT
From: RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3
Subject: Re: Convention Listings

     I sent a message on this to Dave <ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@
Rand-Relay>, but he may not have received it considering all the
gateways it had to pass through: There has been an online SF
conventions listing available to SF-Lovers readers for the last couple
of years (I took over maintenance from an earlier sucker).  It is
maintained as a publicly-FTPable file on ARPANET host OFFICE-3 (soon
to be on MILNET) in file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT.

     There is a mailing-list for those who want update-notices when
the file has been significantly changed, and there is a second
mailing-list which gets the whole file instead of just an update
notice; this second mailing-list is for those who don't have FTP
access to OFFICE-3.  It's handled this way, instead of being published
in the SF-Lovers Digest, because of it's size: CONS.TXT is currently
about 15 printed pages (formatted for line printer); it contains 771
lines (unformatted) or 35,522 characters.

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1983 08:59-PDT
Subject: Re: Elfquest (SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #69)
From: Craig E. Ward <Ward at USC-ISIF>

     I don't read ELFQUEST, but I do have a picture of Wendy Penny in
her Red Sonja outfit...

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 83 20:04:56-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!amd70!fortune!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 'Star Bright'? - (nf)

     Yeah, I can't remember the author either...

     It was done as an episode of "X-1", a 50's half-hour SF radio
drama series that NPR is re-running.  Not to be confused with
"Dimension X".

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 83 17:19:50-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dune movie info

     Here's the latest poop on the movie of "Dune" which many people
have been asking about.  This information is from an article in the
Sunday (Portland) Oregonian, Sep. 4, 1983, by Aljean Harmetz of the
New York Times News Service.

     The movie is currently in production at Churubusco Studios in
Mexico City.  Mexico was chosen for the location because of its
deserts, because only Churubusco had eight sound stages available for
an entire year, and because the rate of exchange is good and filming
in Mexico is cheap.  However, most of the cast and crew have been ill
at one time or another because of the food.

     The movie is being directed by David Lynch (The Elephant Man,
Eraserhead) and produced by Rafaella De Laurentis, the 30-year-old
daughter of Dino De Laurentis.  It has 53 speaking roles, 20,000
extras, nearly 70 sets representing four planets (Arrakis, the
Emperor's throneworld, the Atreides homeworld, and the Harkonnen
homeworld), a crew of 900, and a budget of at least $50 million.

The cast includes:

Kyle MacLachlan, an unknown 24-year-old actor, as Paul Atreides

Francesca Annis as Jesscia, Paul's mother

Jurgen Prochnow, captain of the German sub in "Das Boot," as Duke Leto

Max Von Sydow as Dr. Kynes, the planetologist of Arrakis

Jose Ferrer as the Emperor

Kenneth McMillan as Baron Harkonnen

Sting, the rock star, as Feyd-Ruatha, nephew and heir of Harkonnen

Sian Phillips as the leader of the Bene Gesserit

Everett McGill, last seen in "Search for Fire," as the Fremen leader

With Linda Hunt, Richard Jordon, Brad Dourif, Dean Stockwell, and
Silvana Mangano (the mother of Rafaella De Larentis)

     The special effects will include sandworms by Carlo Rimbaldi,
designer of E.T.; "a 15-foot-long Spacing Guild Navigator floating in
orange spice gas" [presumably garnished with parsley - ed.]; and three
square miles of Mexican desert, meticulously cleaned of all animals
and plants by 200 members of the crew, as the lifeless surface of
Arrakis.  The problem of the blue-within-blue "Eyes of the Ibad" (the
whites of the eyes of users of spice turn blue) has still not been
solved.  Contact lenses are unusable because of the pollution in
Mexico City, and blue dyes made De Laurentis blind for two days when
she tried them on herself.

     Production designer Tony Masters has designed "vaguely Egyptian
tomb-like" Fremen sietches, a "burnished gold Emperor's palace," an
Atreides palace with carved wood doorways and furniture, and a Gedi
(sic) Prime (home of the Harkonnens) with oil oceans and an "ugly
plastic look...like living inside a factory."

     All in all it sounds better than I'd feared.  The casting of
Sting as Feyd-Ruatha is as inspired as David Bowie's in "The Man Who
Fell To Earth" (if he can act) and the effects team sounds like it's
got the right stuff.  Lynch is probably the perfect director for this
project, too.  We will see.

-- David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                     (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Sep 83 12:45 PDT
From: Morrill.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Adventures of the Starkiller

     "Leia Aguilae, a rebel princess accompanied by her family and
retainers, flees from an evil sovereign who has taken control of the
Alliance and declared himself emperor.  General Luke Skywalker, one of
two surviving Jedi knights (along with his friend Annakin Starkiller),
leads Leia on a dangerous escape route.  Along the way, they take two
Imperial bureaucrats hostage, who add comic relief to the film.  A
rebel band of ten boys, aged ten to eighteen, also join the group.
Pursued by Imperial troops, the rebels are chased across space and
hide in an asteroid belt.  They eventually escape in a stolen space
freighter to a jungle planet where they are attacked and the princess
is captured.  The boys, trained by General Skywalker to fly one-man
"devil fighter" planes, free the princess, engage in a laser-blasting
dogfight in space with the Imperial fleet, and escape again into deep
space.  In the final scene, the general and his small band are
rewarded by the princess on her home planet, where she reveals her
true "goddesslike" self.  The two Bureaucrats get drunk and stumble
off into darkness, "realizing that they have been adventuring with
demigods.""

     Sound strange?  This story outline, written by George Lucas in
1973, evolved into the biggest blockbusting movie saga of all time.
If you want to know more about how "Adventures of the Starkiller,
Episode One of the Star Wars" became "Star Wars, A New Hope/The Empire
Strikes Back/Return of the Jedi" I highly recommend the book
"Skywalking, The Life and Films of George Lucas" by Dale Pollack.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 83 2047-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #82
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Sep 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 82

Today's Topics:
                  Discussion - Alternate Universes,
   Books - SF & F Survey & SF for Adolescents & Search for a Story,
                  Conventions - Convention Listing,
                          Comics - ElfQuest,
                        Radio - Star, Bright,
         Film - Update on DUNE and the Origins of Star Wars,

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 September 1983 22:50 EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN @ MIT-MC>

"I guess I agree with you that there is a possibly infinite number of
alternate realities, although of course there's no way of proving this
(yet). Isn't it exciting to think that places like Middle-Earth,
Melnibone, The Land, or whatever you like, actually exist out there,
as described? Kinda neat, ain't it? Get down, get funky!"

     Exciting, but not true. Infinite does *not* mean all possible
universes.  For example, a universe which requires physically
impossible things (physics physical, that is...) won't be in the set
of all universes.  Even something which could exist doesn't have to.
Consider, the set of all even integers is infinite, but doesn't
include 3.

                                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 83 17:17:04-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!parks @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: universe numbering

     It has been proposed that alternate universes could be enumerated
by starting at the beginning of time, and recording a bit stream which
showed the outcome of every binary quantum-mechanical 'choice'.  I
don't think this method is either possible or desirable.

     1. Quantum Physics implies that to know the outcome of these
'choices' we must observe them.  By observing them, we will slightly
alter the particles involved, and we are now in a different universe!

     2. The amount of information required to record even a snapshot
of our current universe is colossal, not to mention information back
to the start of time.  There is nothing to theoretically stop you from
recording an infinite amount of information, but it is hardly
practical.

     3. The problem of whose universe is the 'zero' universe and how a
quantum decision can be universally agreed on as 'yes' or 'no' have
already been discussed at length.

     4. Most importantly, if the tree-type alternate universe scheme
is true, then each instant our universe gives rise to innumerable
similar universes.  There must occur events which cancel out previous
choices, giving rise to identical universes with different pasts.  Not
only would there be a tree extending forward of possible futures, but
also a tree of possible pasts!  Certain aspects of operations research
already deal with this (specifically, anything that can be represented
as a Markov Chain).  The binary choice chain would describe a
universe, but different chain could also describe the same (current)
universe.

     This would be just so much blather if I did not have my own
suggestion to solve the problem.  First of all, I do not believe
either the past or the future are important.  A description of the
present is sufficient to describe our universe (under this scheme, our
past or future would count as 'different' universes).

     Second, a limited resolution is adequate.  While the fact that a
coin is face-up (not face-down) in Calcutta actually is different in
two different universes, it isn't important to ME.  If entire
unobserved galaxies were missing in our next-door-universe I could
never tell the difference.  On the other hand, if my mother were green
I could easily notice.

     To steal from previous schemes, I suggest a set of vectors to
describe
'our' universe:

     (particle type, particle state, x-y-z position, x-y-z momentum)

     Probably molecule-sized particles should be sufficient.  I would
start with my brain, describing all the molecules and their state.  A
lower resolution would be sufficient for the rest of my body, and an
even lower one for my friends.  As I expanded out from myself and what
I know of, the density would become extremely low, until we pass earth
and it is incredibly small (do YOU care if the mass of Vega is off by
2% ?).

     For purposes of standardization, we might want to center our
shells of description at some Cross-Time Central base.

     This scheme has the advantages over not needing a central or
reference world.  All operatives can compare their home-descriptions
and find out how 'close' they live to each other.  Returning agents
can be scanned to find out if they are 'close' to the agent that left
(remember: all will be slightly different from when they left --
they've all experienced some time since the last scan).

Vacationing from Hostigos,
Jay Parks
{...,arizona,decvax,hao,ihnp4,sdcsvax,seismo,unc}!kpno!parks

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 83 17:07:04 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: SF & F Survey Continued ...

     Held over by popular demand!  Third record smashing week ...

     Because of various delays, timing problems, and vacations, it
seems reasonable to extend the deadline for the "SF or F Novels of
Literary Merit" survey for a couple more weeks.

     So ... send in a list of those novels that you think are of high
literary quality before September 19th.  Remember, this is not a
"Favorite-Novel-Of-All-Time" survey.  Those of you who have sent in
replies already, thank you.  You need not send them in again.  Of
course, I will compile and publish the results after the deadlline.

     Is there a Tolstoy of SF?

Commodore Perry
Caro.Pa@PARC-MAXC

------------------------------

Date: 10 September 1983 01:57 edt
From: TMPLee.DODCSC at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: SF for Adolescents

     Can anyone point me (us, the list) to a list of good first-time
SF books for kids just starting to read SF?  What brought the question
to mind is that I happened to pick up a book we had bought for our 12
1/2 year old (7th grade) on the recommendation of a summer-school
science-fiction and fantasy course (we have a very progressive school
district here).  The book is SILVER ON THE TREE by Susan Cooper; one
of the DARK IS RISING series -- we bought some of the others, this
just happens to be the one at hand.  Neither he nor I has read it, so
don't know whether its worth it or not.

     I can vaguely remember the first SF books I read -- Asimov's
FOUNDATION set, Arthur Clarke, and I can even remember that when I
read the Tolkien books when they became a collegiate craze that
sometime, perhaps even in grade school, I had read the HOBBIT before
-- the riddles in the dark had obviously impressed my mind at a very
young age because I couldn't remember when exactly I read them but it
was clear to me I had run across them before and with sufficient
impression that it brought back fuzzy memories of the children's room
at the library.  BUT, I can't say that I read enough SF at an early
enough age, or remember doing so, that I could come up with a
"recommended reading list" for kids just starting out.  (I do have to
mention that he has gone through a couple of the Asimov Robot books,
2001 "a bit confusing", and WarGames (laughed at frequent intervals
throughout, perhaps in part because we had just put the modem on our
Apple and because my profession is computer security)).

Ted Lee

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 83 14:47:32-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!philabs!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!bmcg!@Ucb-Vax
Subject: looking for an old story

     Please help:

     I need help in locating an old science fiction story. I've not
had a lot of luck at the book stores, so I'm hoping this letter
strikes a familiar note.

     A number of years ago, probably 25 or so, I read a marvelous
little story that I believe was called `IRONY'. The premise was that a
comic named Hester ordered a robot with a huge memory bank in which to
store jokes. The idea was that the robot would stand off stage with a
teleprompter and feed `ad-libs' to Hester.

     The problem arose when the robot would start grabbing the punch
lines for itself. The hilarious story ended with a frustrated Hester
essentially becoming the robots keeper.  His billing from that point
on was `Lester the Pestered'.

     This was really great stuff. I remember laughing out loud while
reading the story. My current problem is trying to locate the story
again. I don't even remember the name of the author. I believe that it
was anthologized more than once. I would appreciate any help that
anyone out there can give me.

Thank you,

Ron Perloff
17040 Oculto Court
San Diego, CA  19127

..!sdcrdcf!bmcg!rasp

------------------------------

Date: 11-Sep-83 12:34 PDT
From: RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3
Subject: Re: Convention Listings

     I sent a message on this to Dave <ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@
Rand-Relay>, but he may not have received it considering all the
gateways it had to pass through: There has been an online SF
conventions listing available to SF-Lovers readers for the last couple
of years (I took over maintenance from an earlier sucker).  It is
maintained as a publicly-FTPable file on ARPANET host OFFICE-3 (soon
to be on MILNET) in file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT.

     There is a mailing-list for those who want update-notices when
the file has been significantly changed, and there is a second
mailing-list which gets the whole file instead of just an update
notice; this second mailing-list is for those who don't have FTP
access to OFFICE-3.  It's handled this way, instead of being published
in the SF-Lovers Digest, because of it's size: CONS.TXT is currently
about 15 printed pages (formatted for line printer); it contains 771
lines (unformatted) or 35,522 characters.

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1983 08:59-PDT
Subject: Re: Elfquest (SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #69)
From: Craig E. Ward <Ward at USC-ISIF>

     I don't read ELFQUEST, but I do have a picture of Wendy Penny in
her Red Sonja outfit...

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 83 20:04:56-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!amd70!fortune!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 'Star Bright'? - (nf)

     Yeah, I can't remember the author either...

     It was done as an episode of "X-1", a 50's half-hour SF radio
drama series that NPR is re-running.  Not to be confused with
"Dimension X".

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 83 17:19:50-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dune movie info

     Here's the latest poop on the movie of "Dune" which many people
have been asking about.  This information is from an article in the
Sunday (Portland) Oregonian, Sep. 4, 1983, by Aljean Harmetz of the
New York Times News Service.

     The movie is currently in production at Churubusco Studios in
Mexico City.  Mexico was chosen for the location because of its
deserts, because only Churubusco had eight sound stages available for
an entire year, and because the rate of exchange is good and filming
in Mexico is cheap.  However, most of the cast and crew have been ill
at one time or another because of the food.

     The movie is being directed by David Lynch (The Elephant Man,
Eraserhead) and produced by Rafaella De Laurentis, the 30-year-old
daughter of Dino De Laurentis.  It has 53 speaking roles, 20,000
extras, nearly 70 sets representing four planets (Arrakis, the
Emperor's throneworld, the Atreides homeworld, and the Harkonnen
homeworld), a crew of 900, and a budget of at least $50 million.

The cast includes:

Kyle MacLachlan, an unknown 24-year-old actor, as Paul Atreides

Francesca Annis as Jesscia, Paul's mother

Jurgen Prochnow, captain of the German sub in "Das Boot," as Duke Leto

Max Von Sydow as Dr. Kynes, the planetologist of Arrakis

Jose Ferrer as the Emperor

Kenneth McMillan as Baron Harkonnen

Sting, the rock star, as Feyd-Ruatha, nephew and heir of Harkonnen

Sian Phillips as the leader of the Bene Gesserit

Everett McGill, last seen in "Search for Fire," as the Fremen leader

With Linda Hunt, Richard Jordon, Brad Dourif, Dean Stockwell, and
Silvana Mangano (the mother of Rafaella De Larentis)

     The special effects will include sandworms by Carlo Rimbaldi,
designer of E.T.; "a 15-foot-long Spacing Guild Navigator floating in
orange spice gas" [presumably garnished with parsley - ed.]; and three
square miles of Mexican desert, meticulously cleaned of all animals
and plants by 200 members of the crew, as the lifeless surface of
Arrakis.  The problem of the blue-within-blue "Eyes of the Ibad" (the
whites of the eyes of users of spice turn blue) has still not been
solved.  Contact lenses are unusable because of the pollution in
Mexico City, and blue dyes made De Laurentis blind for two days when
she tried them on herself.

     Production designer Tony Masters has designed "vaguely Egyptian
tomb-like" Fremen sietches, a "burnished gold Emperor's palace," an
Atreides palace with carved wood doorways and furniture, and a Gedi
(sic) Prime (home of the Harkonnens) with oil oceans and an "ugly
plastic look...like living inside a factory."

     All in all it sounds better than I'd feared.  The casting of
Sting as Feyd-Ruatha is as inspired as David Bowie's in "The Man Who
Fell To Earth" (if he can act) and the effects team sounds like it's
got the right stuff.  Lynch is probably the perfect director for this
project, too.  We will see.

-- David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                     (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Sep 83 12:45 PDT
From: Morrill.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Adventures of the Starkiller

     "Leia Aguilae, a rebel princess accompanied by her family and
retainers, flees from an evil sovereign who has taken control of the
Alliance and declared himself emperor.  General Luke Skywalker, one of
two surviving Jedi knights (along with his friend Annakin Starkiller),
leads Leia on a dangerous escape route.  Along the way, they take two
Imperial bureaucrats hostage, who add comic relief to the film.  A
rebel band of ten boys, aged ten to eighteen, also join the group.
Pursued by Imperial troops, the rebels are chased across space and
hide in an asteroid belt.  They eventually escape in a stolen space
freighter to a jungle planet where they are attacked and the princess
is captured.  The boys, trained by General Skywalker to fly one-man
"devil fighter" planes, free the princess, engage in a laser-blasting
dogfight in space with the Imperial fleet, and escape again into deep
space.  In the final scene, the general and his small band are
rewarded by the princess on her home planet, where she reveals her
true "goddesslike" self.  The two Bureaucrats get drunk and stumble
off into darkness, "realizing that they have been adventuring with
demigods.""

     Sound strange?  This story outline, written by George Lucas in
1973, evolved into the biggest blockbusting movie saga of all time.
If you want to know more about how "Adventures of the Starkiller,
Episode One of the Star Wars" became "Star Wars, A New Hope/The Empire
Strikes Back/Return of the Jedi" I highly recommend the book
"Skywalking, The Life and Films of George Lucas" by Dale Pollack.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Sep 83 2024-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #84
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Sep 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 84

Today's Topics:

              Administrivia - Various Problems and News,
      Books - Isaac Asimov & Susan Cooper & Philip Jose Farmer &
           Harry Harrison & Donald Kingsburn & C.S. Lewis &
       Rudy Rucker & Joan Vinge & Robert Anton Wilson (2 msgs),
             Records- Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy,
                    Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs),
           Mixed Messages - Hitchhiker's Guide and Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 83 20:11:18 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Administrivia

Hi All:

     First off, I want to apologize to you for the lack of SFL over
the past several days.  One problem was that there was NOTHING coming
in--so I had nothing to send out.

     A second problem was that my car broke down twice--and I have
been biking to work (10 miles or so one way).  With asthma and
allergies, this has not been fun.  So, I hope that you will understand
my reluctance to go another few miles and return home in the dark...
especially if it was only to send out a digest consisting of one
message!

     On to other topics--Yes, we did have quite a batch of problems
lately.  Unfortunately, we have not been able to track down just what
went on...

     To summarize:

     Issue #78 was truncated.  I have sent a message to the author,
asking for another copy...no answer so far...

     Issue #81 vanished.  No explanation found thus far, and I am
extremely apologetic for all those whose submissions went up in smoke.
If you keep copies of your messages, and you don't see your message
posted in the next week or so, and if you still think it is
relevant...send me another copy and I'll post it again...

     We had a pair of messages that got sent out in pairs--one with
edited headers and one without edited headers.  Chalk it up to a
"clerical" error...

     What can I say?  Boil me in oil, feed me to the frogs, call up
Great Cthulhu and drop me in His Maw, lock me in the reading room of
the Miskatonic University....all I can do is apologize, sedate my
ulcer and pray it doesn't happen again...sigh...

     Other news:

     I have moved (thank the Old Ones).  My new address is:

                          153J Marina Drive
                      Edison, New Jersey  08817

     If any of you would like to send me mail, I will surely read it.
I may even answer it!  I have not given out my telephone number for
obvious reasons--the last time I gave it out (in my "professional"
life-mode), I was inundated with calls from people who did not have a
concept of "sleep".

     Moving was long and difficult, hot and tiring.  I am glad that it
is over, at least until my fiance and I move all of her stuff in!  I
now have no terminal, no television...I do however, have 30 gallons of
tropical fish and fifteen crates of books.  I suppose I'll get by
until October 21!

     Thanks for all you patience, and apologies again...

Be seeing you...

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1983 10:09:27-EDT
From: Scott.Safier at CMU-CS-CAD
Subject: Asimov (book! and movie)

Hi,

     I have heard a rumor that Isaac Asimov's Robot books were going
to become a movie?  does anyone know anything about this.

     Also, I picked up a copy of OMNI and they have a sneak peak at
Asimov's new book.  Does anyone know when the real book is due for
release?

Thank you

Scott

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 83 8:11:32-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!duke!unc!mcnc!rti!rti-sel!will @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Silver on the Tree, by Cooper

     To Ted Lee, who asked the question about adolescent SF: Do NOT
read SILVER ON THE TREE YET!!! It is the last book in the series by
Susan Cooper. Read OVER SEA, UNDER STONE, or THE DARK IS RISING first.
You'll miss a lot if you start at the end.

                                   William Gwaltney Jr.
                                   duke!mcnc!rti!rti-sel!will

------------------------------

Date: Fri 16 Sep 83 18:06:26-CDT
From: E. Allen Emerson <CS.EMERSON@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: New Riverworld Novel

     I noticed that a new Riverworld novel by Farmer is out. Does
anyone know if it is worth paying the paying the hardcover price?

------------------------------

Date: 19 September 1983 17:39 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Harry Harrison

     1) There is Islam and there is Islam.  There is a lovely
ILLUSTRATED Koran at the Smithsonian right now.  As a general rule
(even today), the further you get from Saudi Arabia, the less
seriously they take restrictions on alcohol and the like.  If the
wines of Persia are an example I'd imagine one could get some pretty
nice sherry in Spain.

     2) Mineral oil and other lubricating oils have been in use for
over 4000 years.  By that premise the Eskimos should have been driving
around in Cadillacs before man reached the great plains since they
definitely had access to whale and seal oil (both excellent
lubricants) not to mention that North Slope oil.

------------------------------

Date: 19 September 1983 17:39 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Courtship Rite, by Kingsbury

     I just finished reading Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury and
would like to recommend it highly.  It is a well constructed intrigue
with lovable characters.  It is set on the planet Gita which is
exceedingly hostile to human life.  Most of the native vegetation is
poisonous except for eight plants known as the sacred eight.  The
clans follow rigorous "culling" procedures in which those with low
genetic "kalothi" are 3 during times of famine.  The five protagonists
are members of a group marriage and are searching for a sixth.  They
have chosen a particular biologist but are redirected by the Prime
Predictor and told that they must marry a heretic who has numerous
followers in a politically important area.  Needless to say, her
heresy includes the renunciation of cannibalism which has endeared her
to many, but has also made her many enemies.  The plot twists and
turns as these political intrigues often do but that just keeps the
pages turning.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 1983  9:59:29 EDT (Monday)
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: from a news item

[the scheduled book discussion will be on]

        '..."Out Of The Silent Plant" by C.S. Lewis.'

Middlesex News, Sept 18, 1983

------------------------------

Date: 17 September 1983 14:08 pdt
From: Bakin.SSID at HI-MULTICS
Subject: The Sex Sphere by Rudy Rucker

     This isn't a review or a very complete synopsis, this is just to
let sf-lovers' readers hear about the above book.  It is hilarious,
and contrary to the what the title may suggest, it is very legitimate
SF.

     This physicist finds a speck of degenerate hypermatter after a
second generation proton decay.  After some mad scientist convolutions
he manages to stabilize this n-dimensional fluff into our spacetime.

     This speck of hypermatter is really an alien being who is pissed
that she can't return to her normal "space".  So with all sorts of
higher dimensional trickery, plus the fact that she can "grow" in our
spacetime she manages to start a sequence of events which lead to her
freedom.

     The book is very funny, but also contains a great discussion of
higher dimensions.

     The author, Rudy Rucker, has evidently written some science texts
as well as some other science fiction (including one called
"software")

     The book is called The Sex Sphere and is copyrighted October
1983, but is already out.

                                Jerry Bakin
                                Bakin -at HI-Multics

------------------------------

Date: 12 September 1983  16:33-EDT (Monday)
From: Sue Felshin <SR.FELSHIN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: various book reviews

     To the person writing these reviews -- try reading The Snow Queen
by Hans Christian Anderson and then rereading Vinge's version.
Granted, I liked her book even before I understood its origin, still,
a second reading (or even just second thoughts), this time with an
appreciation of the (I think) marvelously gifted way in which Vinge
interweaves science fiction with fairy tale, copying the old without
loss of originality, will surely (hope, hope) make the book more
enjoyable to you.  Justifies the ending, too.

                                Three cheers for timeless plots!
                                and the authors who use them!
                                (but only when the new version adds
                                to the old),

                                Sue Felshin
                                PaFotSftPoRCD

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Sep 83 09:19 EDT
Subject: Illuminatus Book needed
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.Henr@Parc-Maxc.Arpa>

"The Eye in the Pyramid, Illuminatus! vol. 1", by Robert Shea and
Robert Anton Wilson

     Frantic efforts to locate this book in conventional bookstores
have failed, since it is currently not in print.  I also can't seem to
find it in the used bookstores I have checked around here (ie.
Rochester N.Y.).  Does somebody out there have a copy they would be
willing to part with (I would pay handsomely)?  Suggestions as to
bookstores that might have it (either in Rochester or that accept mail
requests) are welcome as well.

                                   Thanks,
                                           Chris

Heiny.henr@Parc-Maxc.Arpa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 83 9:27:57-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!cca!dma-mm (Martin Marietta) @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Robert Anton Wilson tour

     I have just heard that Robert Anton Wilson, author of the
Illuminatus! series (and what lover of paranoid sf has not read this!)
and the Schroedinger's Cat series will be returning to the States from
Ireland (where he's been for a year or so) for two US tours and
visits.  Some of his visits will be more in his author guise, and some
more in his magickal guise, and yet others in his
consciousness-exploration guise.  I understand the following dates
have been confirmed:

January 27-29, February 10-12 -- Appearances in Cleveland, Ohio

February 4-5 -- Madison, Wisconsin (CIRCLE)

February 17-19 -- Providence, RI (Providence Random Assembly)

     This first tour will also include some sort of appearances in
California, and a possible in Boulder Colorado.

     In the summer, RAW will be returning again for appearances at the
ESALEN Institute, (in CA) and the Starwood (New Age) Festival (Ohio)
in July.

    For further (and probably better) info WRITE (uSNail)

                    ACE
                    c/o The Civic
                    3130 Mayfield Road
                    Cleveland Heights, OHIO  44118
                    (216)-932-5421  (if ya just can't wait)

I'll be there....................

                    michael schwartz
                    ...|cca|dma-mm (Martin Marietta -- Denver)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 83 10:08:30-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!louie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Hitch-hiker's Guide to The Galaxy Albums

     For those of you who have been trying to find the Hitch-hiker's
Guide to The Galaxy albums, you may want to try Waxie Maxie's (in the
Washington D.C.  area).  They seem to have both Volume 1 and The
Restaurant At The End of The Universe.  It's the only record store
I've found which has carried both.  Both albums are on Hannibal
Records.  If you can't find them and want the record store to order
one or both for you, the albums seem to be numbered thus:

     HNBL 2301 - The Hitch-hiker's Guide to The Galaxy, Vol I1
     HNBL 1307 - The Restaurant At The End of The Universe Vol II

     Not a 42 in either; someone's slipping!

Louis A. Mamakos

Internet:  louie@cvl.arpa
CSNet:     louie.cvl@umcp-cs
uucp:      ..!{seismo,we13,mcnc}!rlgvax!cvl!louie
phone:     (301) 454-2946
Snail Mail:
           Computer Science Center - Systems Staff
           University of Maryland
           College Park, MD   20742

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 83 11:15:50-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxj!ealee @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 42 and Who rumors

     The rumors about Peter Davison leaving Dr. Who are true. This
will be his last season (giving him a total of 3 years as The Doctor).

     I have heard a rumor that Tom Baker is interested in coming back
and do at least 3 years as The Doctor. Seems he can't get that much
work in the movie or theatre business.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 83 0:29:17-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!seismo!rlgvax!speaker @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dr. Who Questions

     Yes it is still being (taped actually) by the BBC.  Check the
copyright dates at the end of the episodes.  It has actually been
running for the last 20 years and is quite popular all over the world.
There have been 5 different Doctors over those years.  The story is
that he regenerates every now and then.  Still confused?

     I'll let the other rabid Dr. Who fans fill you in on all the gory
details.

                                        - Speaker
                                        speaker@umcp-cs
                                        speaker.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay

This must be hell...all I can see are flames... towering flames!

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 83 17:52:39-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.acu @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: 42 and Who rumors

1. When asked by a reporter why he picked the number 42,
   Adams supposedly replied that it came to mind because
   it is the number of days a woman should refrain from
   sex after giving birth (6 weeks).

2. Rumor has it that Peter Davison will be leaving Dr. Who.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 83 2017-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #85
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Sep 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 85

Today's Topics:
             Administrivia - Oh the pain, oh the pain...,
      Books - Isaac Asimov & Philip Jose Farmer & Randy Rucker &
             Two Questions & SF for Adolescents (3 msgs),
                      Television - Star Blazers,
                         Film - Dune (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 83 20:09:54 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Oh the pain, oh the pain...

     They're at it again...boiling me in oil...stuffing me like a
sausage...  Pests and Pestilance, and Nicholas would say...

     There was no Issue #83...For some reason it was numbered Issue
#84...

     Apologies, humble grovelings, etc....

Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(T MINUS THIRTYTHREE)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 83 21:54:28 PDT (Mon)
From: kalash%UCBINGRES@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Robots of Dawn

     Well, I just finished said book last night (limited edition
Phantasia Press edition, if you are wondering where I got a copy).

     Micro Review: **1/2

     Asimov continues to tie his "worlds" together, but as a mystery
it is a bit dull.

Review:

     It seems some one on the planet Aurora has killed a human-form
robot (not Daneel), and implicated the leading pro earth politician/
scientist. Elijah Baley is called in to solve the crime, in the face
of rather unfriendly opposition. We get to meet Daneel, Gladia and
Fastofal (Daneel's creator) once again, along with a host of new
people (most unfriendly), and robots (most friendly). Asimov continues
to make attempts to tie his robot novels in with the foundation books
(if you have read Foundation's Edge, you have a good idea what is
coming on that front).

     The main problem I had with the book was that it wasn't very
compelling. I never could convince myself that "killing" a robot could
be very important, or that Elijah was ever doing anything that
interesting (except exploring Auroran society). While I like Asimov's
writing, this one is not a major work. I give it **1/2, worth picking
up a paperback edition.

                        Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: 19 September 1983 23:05 cdt
From: RSaunders.TCSC at HI-MULTICS
Subject: Gods of Riverworld

     This is not intended as a complete review but rather a reply to
the person who asked if they should spend the hardcover price to buy
the new Riverworld book.  I will admit that I did, however it would be
a really good idea to borrow the book if you can find someone to buy a
copy.  The book contains the following in its preface:

     (used without permission)

          "I stated in the fourth volume, The Magic Labyrinth,
     that it would be the final book in the series.  I had
     intended it to be so, but I did leave myself a tiny
     escape hatch in the final paragraph.  My unconscious
     knew better than my conscious, and it made me (the devil!)
     install that little door.

     I have no doubt that this book is the result of no better than a
semi-conscious (semi-sentient?) author looking for some more $$$$$
from a burned out idea.  If you like Farmer when he waxes
philosophically about points of dubious merit, buy the book and lend
it out.  If you are looking for the original ideas and fast-paced
entertainment of the early Riverworld books, borrow it to satisfy
yourself that you have missed nothing.  The twist (or two was it?) in
the plot is quite guessible and did not enlighten me on any of the
confusions left by TML.

     After allowing for some other opinions to be heard I may write a
more through review of the good and bad points of the book.  I did
enjoy the book, although I should have waited, but I was left with as
many questions as before.  Perhaps this sleeping dog should be allowed
to lie.

        Randy Saunders

------------------------------

Date: Mon 19 Sep 83 22:52:53-EDT
From: LINDSAY%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: The Sex Sphere

     I disagree with the recent review of The Sex Sphere. Actually,
it's an OK book. What's wrong is that it's derivative of the author's
better work.

     Rudy Rucker seems to operate in two modes. "Software" was one of
them, and everything else is the other. Well, I like both modes, but
I'm getting tired of the second. "White Light", "Spacetime Donuts",
and "The 57th Franz Kafka" are noticably connected, more by obsessions
than by style. The Sex Sphere, for all that it's decently written,
brought them all around again ... and it irritated me.

     The obsessions are certainly amusing at first. I recommend Kafka
as a great sampler (and also the best buy for the money). There, you
will find horny young mathematical physicists have trouble getting
good jobs, who visit Germany, meet Hungarians, find their theories
about higher dimensions have experimental verification, take drugs,
are lousy to their wives, cope poorly with children due to their own
immaturity, et cetera. You'll even find an article on Flatland (and
the other mathematical obsessions trotted out once more in The Sex
Sphere).

      I recommend Software as Rudy Rucker's best written book. If you
care to go beyond it and Kafka, then White Light has an interesting
plot based on transfinite mathematics. Beyond that it sort of tapers
off. Maybe the next book ...

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 83 19:24:52 PDT (Wed)
From: Hester.UCI@Rand-Relay
Subject: Re: Mixed bag (2 questions)

     Concerning FTA (about a faster-than-light drive that was too slow
due to the speed of light in hyperspace), the story was by George R.
R.  Martin, originally printed in Analog (May 1974) and in my
collection in A SONG FOR LYA (a collection of Martin's short stories).
The story is only 3 pages long, and I drove myself crazy trying to
find any clue to the meaning of FTA.  Assuming the first two letters
mean 'Faster Than', the best guess I have is that the "A" stands for
"Ants", from the motto of the FTL Foundation: "Everyone knows an ant
can't move a rubber tree plant."  There were no other words in the
story starting with "A" that made sense enough to be worth using in
the title.  My other guesses are: the "A" stands for some known
variable in physics that I don't recognize (anybody out there have any
ideas?), and "TA" stands for "Technology Assessment", and I don't know
what the "F" is for.

     About the book dedicated to Jason dinAlt and Retief among others,
one such is HAN SOLO'S REVENGE, by Brian Daley.  The dedication reads:

        For Cargo-master-apprentice Dane Thorson,
        Chief Scout Adam Reith, Jason dinAlt, Jame
        Retief of the Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne
        and all others of that rare stripe.

Hope this helps         Jim Hester

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 83 03:56:52 EDT
From: Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: SF for adolescents

     I have some contact with SF fans of junior high school age
(through church, where I teach Sunday School at that level).  I don't
see much difference between their taste and mine.  (hmmm... that might
have unintended meanings.)  I guess I might avoid some of the really
heavy stuff, such as the New Sun series, or maybe new wave.  Except I
think some of them tolerate Thomas Covenant better than I do, so even
that may not be true.  Heinlein has been quoted as saying that SF for
kids should look just like SF for adults but without all the sex.  But
by that age my suspicion is that anything short of real pornography
would not be a problem, particularly if you are reading along with
them.  (But then last year I introduced my class to the X-rated
portions of the Bible.  Maybe I am just a dirty old man...)  I would
be guided more by their taste than by things particularly "good for
kids".  I.e. let them sample a variety of things: hard SF,
sword-and-sorcery, fantasy, etc.  And encourage them to pursue what
they like.

Of the books that seem directed towards teenagers, my favorites are:

The early Heinleins [anybody who doesn't know them shouldn't be
reading this list],

Panshin, "Rite of Passage" - an interesting character study of a girl
going through the rite of passage into adulthood in a future society.
Earth has been destroyed by nuclear war, and we have interstellar
ships where people live permanently, and colonies, whose technological
level is fairly low.  The rite of passage for a shipborn person
consists of having to survive on one of the planets for some time. Its
main attractions are its very fine character study, and its realistic
handling of the implications of this society, including some ethical
problems that I take time to describe.  Like the Heinleins, and unlike
some the books below, the only sense in which this is a book for
teenagers is the age of the protagonist.  It is quite a fine novel. (a
Hugo winner, I think?)

Andre Norton, "the Prince Commands" [title approx.] - a young man has
been brought up in the U.S. in total isolation. Suddenly he is brought
back to a small country in the Balkans. Turns out he is the heir
apparent, but has been brought up in ignorance of his position.  He
gets attacked by werewolves, explores secret passagesways in a castle.
Good swashbuckling stuff.  Probably neither SF nor fantasy, since the
werewolves turn out to have a rational explanation, but good fun.

Marion Zimmer Bradley, "Heritage of Hastur" - one of the better of the
Darkover novels.  I presume most people have some idea what the
Darkover novels are about, so I won't say much about this.  It is a
character study of 3 young men, dealing particularly with their
feelings towards each other.  In a telepathic society it is
necessarily harder to hide feelings than in ours.  When someone feels
that he has to, as here, it can cause serious effects.  This may be a
controversial recommendation for kids, since homosexuality is
involved.  (It is only carried out overtly by a negative character,
but the protagonists have to deal with the feelings in themselves.) It
is handled very sensitively.

C.S. Lewis - Narnia books - these are really for younger kids. A 7th
grader would see them as an adult, I think.  Still, they are fun.
They are almost Lewis' best fiction.  (The best is "Till We Have
Faces".)  We have a land with Talking Animals, and lots of magical
adventures [hmm... I guess this is fantasy, not SF].  Sometimes a bit
obvious in Christian allegory, but many people (including me) find it
very attractive.

Madeline L'Engle - she has a bunch of books.  Her first 2 or 3 were
sort of fantasy/SF, probably for younger kids.  They also piled on the
message about caring for other people a bit heavy.  Her tendency to
pile things on a bit heavy continues, but some of her books are still
rather nice.  Probably the one that has the best claim to being real
SF is "Arm of the Starfish".  It assumes that a biologist has
discovered enough about how starfish regenerate lost arms to be able
to apply the technique to other species, including us.  For various
reasons, it is a very dangerous discovery.  The bad guys want it.  The
protagonist is a 16-year old who desperately wants to know which are
the bad guys and which are the good guys.  I wish I could say that he
figures it out in time. I guess you would have to classify this one as
a character study too. It is really a study in disorientation.  What
do you do when it is very important to choose right and you can't
trust your own instincts?  No simple answer.  You end up trying to
live with your mistakes, even fatal ones.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 83 13:18:18-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!decwrl!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF for Adolescents

     I started on the numerous Heinlein "Juvies".  Besides being good
sf they were a good introduction to basic physics, relativity, and RAH
philosophical gibberish.  Kids could do worse.

        Jeff    {decvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 83 0:30:20-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF for Adolescents - (nf)

     I would recommend most of the works of Anne McCaffrey (the Pern
series, for example), and also of Andre Norton.  Those are the ones
that come to mind off the top of my head.  Oh yes, probably Poul
Anderson's Flandry books, Polesotechnic League stories, & others.

Any more, anyone?
Marion Hakanson
{hp-pcd,teklabs}!orstcs!hakanson  (USENET)
hakanson.oregon-state@rand-relay  (CSNET)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 83 17:38:44-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!speaker @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Star Blazers

     I believe that the third season HAS been released and I won't
spoil the ending for you... it's pretty good.

     I think the animation was rather crude in the series as a whole.
The Japanese seem content with limited animation and I just don't see
why.

     One question: Wasn't the Empire in the second season called "The
Common Empire" and not "The Comet Empire?"  I always thought this was
an allusion to dirty red communism.

--
                                   - Speaker
                                   speaker@umcp-cs
                                   speaker.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay

This must be hell...all I can see are flames... towering flames!

------------------------------

Date: 12-Sep-83 10:53 PDT
From: RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3
Subject: Dune movie presentation at WorldCon

     There was a short presentation on the Dune movie at ConStellation
(\very/ short movie, that didn't look too good, and a longer slide
show that looked pretty good).  It looks like there's a fair chance
the movie will be pretty good.  The only quibble I have so far is that
they're using the same Japanese martial-arts expert to tutor the
actors who was used for the Conan movie, so it'll all be
oriental-style hand-to-hand and blade-work; not as jarring as in
"Conan", but still not quite right.

     They're supposed to be about done filming now, and have a
scheduled 16 months of post-production to look forward to.  The movie
is currently scheduled for release in December 1984.

-Rich.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 83 12:04:42 PDT (Monday)
From: Haynes.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Dune, the Movie

     The movie Dune, has evidently been cancelled in mid-production.
Evidently due to various problems involved in shooting the movie in
Mexico, and dissatisfaction with what they saw of the shooting.

     I heard this from a friend, who has a friend whose girlfriend was
involved in the effex, so take the info with a small grain of salt.

        -- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 83 16:05:46-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dune, the Movie

     I would find it very hard to believe that Dune (the movie) has
been cancelled at this time.  Less then 2 weeks ago (at Worldcon) I
saw a presentation given by representatives from the project.  It
involved a film about the production effort and slides showing sets
and costumes.  They were talking about a $60 million budget (BEFORE
overruns).  If it has been cancelled between then and now, these
people must be very surprised!

                Cliff Shaffer
                {seismo,we13,mcnc}!rlgvax!cvl!cas

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Sep 83 2058-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #86
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Sep 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 86

Today's Topics:
              Discussion - Alternate Universes (2 msgs),
        Books - SF for Children of All Ages & Short SF Query &
                         Merit Survey Results

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1983 1234-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-SPEECH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Alternate Universes

     If a new universe is created for each outcome of every decision,
it would seem you'd run out of stuff eventually. One cure for this
would be to have just as many universes converging as diverging at a
given moment. Another alternative would be to have converging
universes. You start with an infinite number (at the big bang say) and
as time goes along, the individual universes expand and merge. If you
believe in entropy, then as the entropy of the universe increases,
information that makes it distinct from all the other universes is
lost.  At the end, the universe ends in one homogeneous, lukewarm
soup.  One homogeneous soup is just like another. If you believe in
cycles, If the universe begins to contract eventually, you can then
have the universes diverging (sort of conservation of "volume").  :-)

        Joe

------------------------------

Date: 19 September 1983 19:43 edt
From: Bergman.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Alternate worlds as inspirational source

     Most people seem to have lost track of the original question.
The Incomplete enchanter series by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher
Pratt is the only one I can think of at the moment that addresses the
issue of alternate worlds in the terms originally put forth (real
events in alternate worlds inspire novels here).  The stories are
available in two volumes: The Incomplete Enchanter and The Compleat
Enchanter.  I am not sure if they are currently in print, but they
have been published in pb within the last ten years.

     I am sure I have read other short stories with a similar
orientation towards communication between alternate universes, but
can't recall any names.

     On the general topic of alternate universe stories, there are the
Andre Norton books, Quest Crosstime and <title forgotten>, which use
an absolute numbering scheme based on the only world to have
discovered crosstime travel (not ours, although we do figure in (as
the only world in a series that have destroyed themselves with Nuclear
war!).  One of the Crosstime books has an interesting world in which
the Mayan/Aztec/Inca empire discovers Europe, as an equal.  Also Here
Be Dragons <monsters?> in which the alternate world is Avalon, and a
book that I have forgotten the name of, which is set in her future
history, mainline sf universe, but pops over into pure fantasy as the
characters cross the boundary.  Also the Witch World series.  I guess
I had better just leave off and say that Andre Norton has written
quite a few alternate universe books, which I liked.

     Operation Chaos, by Poul Anderson is, I believe, sometimes
referred to as a classic.

     The Face in the Frost is wonderful, although fantasy, not sf.  I
have forgotten the author's name.

     Alan Nourse, The Universe Between.

     That's all I can think of right now that haven't already been
mentioned.

--mike Bergman
bergman.softarts@mit-multics

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 1983 09:55-PDT
Subject: Re: SF for Adolescents
From: Craig E. Ward <Ward at USC-ISIF>

     The book that got me interested in SF (and reading in general) as
a kid was "Expedition to Earth" by none other than Arthur C. Clarke.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 1983 05:56:02-PDT
From: stever at cit-vax
Subject: Children's SF

More F & SF for children of all ages:

Weirdstone ... (trilogy)       Alan Garner

Earthsea Trilogy               LeGuin

     Magic from the island archipelago.

Wrinkle in Time                L'Engle

Phantom Tollbooth              ?

     Fantasy vacation.

The Forgotten Door             Alexander Key

     Stunning.

Mad Scientists Club (2 books)  ?

     Amusing scientific pranks.

The Great Brain                Fitzgerald (?)

     Schoolboys.

Freddie the Detective          ?

     Talking animals.

(5 book series)                Susan Cooper

The spaceship under the        ?
apple tree  (2 books)

Flatland                       Abbot

     Mathematical Fantasy

     Early Heinlein, in particular 'Citizen of the Galaxy' and
'Tunnel In the Sky'.  Ursula Leguin.  Andre Norton.  Alan Nourse.
Lloyd Biggle Jr.

James Schmitz:

'The Witches of Karres',    'A Pride of Monsters',
'The Telzey Toy',           'The Universe Against Her',
'Agent of Vega',            'Demon Breed',
'Eternal Frontier'

     Is James Schmitz alive and writing?  Am I missing any of his
books?  Can any of you fill in the question marks above?

     I remember fondly a series of juveniles, in which Irish elves
lure children into lives of underground slavery.  There were at least
three books but I don't remember name or author.  Any takers?

     Here's a list of my all time favorite SF without comment.  Enjoy.

Dunsany,     PK Dick,    LeGuin,

Lem         'The Invincible',  'The Cyberiad',
             'The Investigation'

Simak       'Way Station'

Snyder      'Testament XXI'

Sturgatski  'Hard to be a God', 'Roadside Picnic',
            'Definitely Maybe'

Wolfe       '5th Head of Cerebus', SotT etc., 'The Devil in a
             Forrest', 'Peace', 'Island of Dr. Death And Other
             Stories and other stories' Has Wolfe written any books
             besides these?

Zelazny     'My Name is Legion: Home is the Hangman',
            'Doorways in the sand', 'Lord of Light'

My most recent hot read was Melvyn Peake's Gormenghast series:

    'Titus Groan', 'Gormenghast', 'Titus Alone'  --

     The exquisitely morbid chronicles of the Castle Gormenghast, of
the birth of the new heir Titus, of the emnity between Lord
Sepulchrave's manservant Flay and the Cook by name Abiatha Swelter.
Tight.

     If I remember correctly this story was created in the early 30's
or 40's It never made it big - but deserves to!  It is a sight better
than TC in the anti-hero genre.  A Gormenghast movie would be
incredible.

     Reading all three of the Gormenghast books takes considerable
stamina.  I gave up in the middle of #2 but then that's further than I
got with TC.

                                      Cheers,

                                      Steve Rabin
                                      Caltech

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1983 09:09-EST
From: Joseph.Ginder@CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA
Subject: short SF query

     So far, I've only received 2 replies to my query for people's
favorite SF of shorter-than-novel length.  C'mon now!  Surely people
on this list have something to say on this subject...

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 10:47:59 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Merit Survey Results

     The response to my "SF & F Novels of Literary Merit Survey"
was UNDERwhelming.  At first, I thought this was the result of
(SF-LOVERS) reader apathy.  But the comments included with several
of the ballots that I received point to another reason.  Many people
were uncomfortable with, if not dead-set against, comparing SF & F
to such works as MOBY DICK, THE TALE OF TWO CITIES, etc.  The
impression I got was that readers don't consider SF & F to be in the
same "league."

     The only conclusion that I can draw from this is that Science
Fiction and Fantasy writers, for the most part, are incapable of
writing novels of lasting literary merit.  Science Fiction and
Fantasy will forever be neighboring tenements in the ghetto of
literature.

     What I want to know is WHY IS THIS SO??!!

     Anyway, here are the few exceptions to the conclusion drawn
above.  There were some surprises.  I would contest not a few of
the entries. I was hard put to resist the temptation to do a
little self-centered editing.  Other entries caused me to slap my
forehead and cry, "Now how could I have forgotten THAT ONE!?"  There
were some predictable entries, and some glaring omissions (which
I corrected when submitting my own ballot.)

     I decided against ranking the list.  There weren't enough votes
to do a good job of that anyway.  The list is presented alphabetically
by author's last name.  Further comments follow.

The Results:

Douglas Adams:

The Hitchhiker's Guide, et. al.

R. Adams:

WATERSHIP DOWN

Isaac Asimov:

Foundation Trilogy

Peter Beagle:

A FINE AND PRIVATE PLACE

THE LAST UNICORN

G. Benford:

TIMESCAPE

Alfred Bester:

THE DEMOLISHED MAN

THE STARS MY DESTINATION

James Blish:

CITIES IN FLIGHT

Ray Bradbury:

FAHRENHEIT 451

The Martian Chronicles

SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES

John Brunner:

STAND ON ZANZIBAR

THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER

David Bunch:

MODERAN

Anthony Burgess:

A CLOCKWORK ORANGE

C. J. Cherryh:

PORT ETERNITY

Faded Sun Trilogy

Michael Chrichton:

ANDROMEDA STRAIN

Arthur C. Clarke:

CHILDHOOD'S END

THE CITY AND THE STARS/AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT

THE SANDS OF MARS

John Crowley:

LITTLE, BIG

Samuel Delany:

DHALGREN

THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION

NOVA

P. K. Dick:

THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE

P. J. Farmer:

THE DARK DESIGN

W. A. Harbinson:

GENESIS

R. A. Heinlein:

THE DOOR INTO SUMMER

TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE

Frank Herbert:

DUNE

Herman Hesse:

DAS GLASPERLENSPIEL

Aldous Huxley:

BRAVE NEW WORLD

U. K. LeGuin:

THE DISPOSSESSED

The Earthsea Trilogy

THE LATHE OF HEAVEN

THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS

Stanislaw Lem:

THE FUTUROLOGICAL CONGRESS

THE INVESTIGATION

SOLARIS

C.S. Lewis:

The Space Trilogy

Walter M. Miller Jr.:

A CANTICLE FOR LIEBOWITZ

Mervyn Peake:

Titus Groan Trilogy (TITUS GROAN, GORMENGHAST only)

Niven & Pournelle:

THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE

George Orwell:

1984

Christopher Priest:

FUGUE FOR A DARKENING ISLAND

Ayn Rand:

ATLAS SHRUGGED

Mary Shelley:

FRANKENSTEIN

Robert Silverberg:

BOOK OF SKULLS

DYING INSIDE

J. R. R. Tolkien

THE LORD OF THE RINGS

Kurt Vonnegut:

SLAUGHTERHOUSE FIVE

H. G. Wells:

THE TIME MACHINE

Gene Wolfe:

Book of the New Sun (SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, etc.)

Roger Zelazny

LORD OF LIGHT

???:

FAIL-SAFE

More Observations:

     THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, and "Lord of the Rings" garnered
the most votes, though that isn't saying much considering the small
number of respondents.

     Some random comments ...

''When I think of literary excellence, I have to think in SF terms,
not in mainstream terms.''

''One problem with comparing SF to "mainstream" fiction is that
SF lovers can read mainstream, but only a person familiar with SF
and technology in general is going to make any headway with "Stand
on Zanzibar."''

''LotR is probably one of the greatest works of the 20th century,
all around. ....  Tolkien is merely a work of art.''

''These are some candidates for literary merit in SF&F.  I do
NOT consider them to be in the same class as, for example, "Moby
Dick".  I just don't believe there are any works at that level.
Sorry.  Does this disqualify my ballot?''

***

     Finally, though unsolicitated, I received a rather humorous
Anti-Recommendation.  In light of the fact that Gene Wolfe's "Book of
the New Sun" got more votes than most, I think this comment is quite
provocative ...

''Works of Utterly Negligible Literary Merit, that are also
RottenScience Fiction.

The entire Opus (Can-Opus?) that Doris Lessing seems Hell-bent
upon inflicting upon an undeserving world.

The First, Second, ..AlephNullth Chronicles of TC ...

The Saga of the Pliocene Exile, The Finger of the Fornicator,
Sai-Dan, Blech the Barbarian, and everything else fabricated by
hacks who propose to sell heroic fantasy by the yard.''

****

Perry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Sep 83 1835-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #87
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Sep 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 87

Today's Topics:
                      Film - Forbidden Planet &
            This Island Earth and The War of the Worlds &
                    I, Robot & Star Trek (4 msgs),
     Television - Star Blazers & Dr. Who & Wizards and Warriors,
                         Games - Videogames,
 Books - Douglas Adams & Philip Jose Farmer & L. Sprague de Camp and
           Fletcher Pratt & Alan Garner & James P. Hogan &
                             Randy Rucker

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 83 16:06:00-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!floyd!clyde!crc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: It! The Terror From Beyond Space

     I think the best SF film from the 50's was FORBIDDEN PLANET.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 83 19:22:17-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!decwrl!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: It! The Terror From Beyond Space

     Only This Island Earth and War of the Worlds were even in the
same league.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 1983 2313-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: I, Robot movie

     There have been several abortive attempts at filming Asimov's
robot series.  The most recent, which got pretty far, was to have been
written by Harlan Ellison.  Apparently the studio started being
incredibly twitty, though (for example, they wanted to make Susan
Calvin young and sexy [!!]), so Ellison refused, and the project was
scrapped.  I don't trust any movie studio not to utterly screw up any
*real* science fiction, since they don't understand it out there.

                        Janice

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 83 12:13:17-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!don @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Melville in Space

               Subject: Did Melville write Star Trek II

     "I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares
maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up."

                                - Khan (in Star Trek II)

     "I'll chase him round Good Hope, and round the Horn, and round
the Norway Maelstrom, and round perdition's flames before I give him
up."

                                - Captain Ahab (in Moby-Dick)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 83 21:52:13-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.ab3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Melville in Space

     No, I don't think Herman Melville wrote "The Wrath Of Khan"...
however, note that in one of the opening scenes - the one wherein
Chekov and whats-his-name find the wrecked spaceship, enter it, and
are discovered by Khan - there is a camera shot of "Moby Dick"...

     Also, the little speech Khan gives just before the big boom-boom
at the end is from Moby Dick - something along the lines of "From
hells depth I strike at thee..."

                           Darth Wombat
                           headed for Windy City Breakdown

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 83 13:31:32-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!watmath!jsgray @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Melville in Space

     Of course.  "Moby Dick" was one of the books Khan took with him
from 'Old Earth' (another was Milton's "Paradise Lost").  The books
were clearly visible lying on a shelf in the "Botany Bay" ship in
ST2TWOK.

     Khan referred to "Paradise Lost" in both "Space Seed" and
ST2TWOK...

     Good continuity there.

Knowing this belongs in net.startrek,

Jan Gray
University of Waterloo
(519) 885-1211 x2730

jsgray@watmath.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 83 16:57:00-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!lzmi!ziegler @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Melville in Space

     Of course, Khan was very fond of quoting "ancient" Earth
literature.  You will recall that in "Space Seed" one of the last
things he said was a reference to Milton.  Something like "Better to
rule in Hell that to reign in Heaven."  Yes, I know that Khan never
actually said that, but he referred to it and Kirk later explained the
reference to Scotty and the rest of us ignorami.  (How would you spell
the plural of ignoramus?)

                        Joe Ziegler
                        ...hogpc!pegasus!lzmi!ziegler

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 83 8:58:36-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!whuxlb!jph @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Star Blazers - (nf)

     My wife said that it was the "COMET EMPIRE". She (and the kids)
watch it religiously. Do you know the times for the stations in the
NYC area for the new releases of Star Blazers?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 83 17:54:38-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2a!argo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who Questions

     I have recently gotten into Dr. Who, and have just seen another
episode with the Daleks.  So far I have seen both Genesis and Day of
the Daleks.  Anyway, Day of the Daleks raised some questions for me.
In that episode, the Doctor and Jo Grant went into the future of the
Earth.  I began to wonder how consistent the future history was in Dr.
Who.  I realize in Day of the Daleks they changed the future, but I
wondered about other future earth shows.

     For instance, I remember the history of future earth from Ark in
Space as having Earth destroyed by solar flares or some such reason,
and then some alien race investigating it in the next episode.

     Anyway, my question is, what episodes deal with the future
history of the Earth, and how consistent are they?  If you give
examples, please give details, I haven't seen that many shows.

     Further, could anyone give me information on the Daleks.  I know
most of the information presented in Genesis and Day of, but not any
of the others.  I would like to know anything possible of Dalek
methods of expansion, and a record of the expansion. In short, what
have they done?

                                              Thanks,
                                              Andrew Garrett

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 1983 12:19-PDT
Subject: Wizards and Warriors
From: BarryGold (BARRYG@MIT-MC)

     Episode six of the unofficial W&W continuation is now available
in GUEST0;BARRYG WW6 at MIT-MC.  Or reply via network mail if you
can't get it via FTP.

----------Barry Gold

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 83 17:02 EDT (Monday)
From: Denber.WBST@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Real Life Videogames

     Did you go to SIGRRAPH this year?  Did you see the film of the
arcade game fanatic who thinks he's finally won when the machine
collapses in a heap in front of him, only to find he's now on "level
13" where alien battle cruisers are now floating around the room
shooting *real* lasers at him, blasting out chunks of nearby walls?
(A blaster appears in his hand and he starts desperately firing back.
The audience loved it.)

     I recently started seeing TV ads for a new movie called
"Nightmares" which include about a 0.25 second clip that resembles
part of the Sigrraph excerpt.  Does anyone know if this is it?

                        - Michel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 83 00:14 EDT
From: Steve Platt <Platt%UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: HGttG's '42'

     I also remember attending a talk by Adams, he was questioned
about "42", and his general response was something along the line of

        "It seemed to be a number totally without meaning,
         so I chose it [42]."

-steve

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 1983  10:59 EDT (Wed)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: Gods of Riverworld

     I have not read the Gods of Riverworld, but not only will I not
pay the price for a hardbound, I intend to BORROW the PAPERBACK when
it gets out.  The other four major books in the series have left me
begging for no more.  If Mr. Sanders, the individual kind enough to
give us a nano-review of the book, thinks that this one is not as good
as the others, it bodes ill indeed!

     I have not read a lot of Phillip Jose Farmer so I can't say
whether or not all his writing is not to my taste.  I have read Venus
on the Halfshell and thought that it was extremely funny.  Maybe PJF
is good at copying other authors styles; he certainly did a good job
of copying Vonnegut's style in VotHS.  Is the riverworld series an
attempt on Farmer's part to copy Mark Twain's style?  If so, does
Farmer ever write things in his own style?

Have donned my wet suit,
Greg

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1983 17:41:27-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: enchanters

     THE COMPLEAT ENCHANTER contains THE INCOMPLETE ENCHANTER
(adventures in the Norse Fimbulwinter and Spenser's "The Faerie
Queen") and THE CASTLE OF IRON ("Orlando Furioso"). It is missing,
because of copyright problems, the last two segments (the Kalevala and
Cuchulain's Ireland) which came out in the early 50's as THE WALL OF
SERPENTS and have yet to be reprinted. (In the bad old days the first
purchaser of fiction generally got all rights for all time).

     A variant of your theme appears in Anderson's THERE WILL BE TIME,
in which the stories of the Maurai Federation turn out to have been
relayed through Havig's friends from his telling of visits to the
period.

------------------------------

Date: 22 September 1983 15:34 cdt
From: Cargo.PD at HI-MULTICS
Subject: The works of Alan Garner

     I was aware that the Weirdstone of Brisengamen (SP?) and its
sequel, the Moon of Gomroth existed, but stever at cit-vax said that
this was a trilogy. What is the third book? I thought I had read most
of Garner.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 83 23:09:47 EDT
From: "John B. Black" <Black@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Hogan and Cognitive Psychology

     Around a year ago I posted a message to this list requesting
pointers to Science Fiction stories that utilized modern cognitive
psychology. I received a few suggestions, but they were to older,
usually invalid psychological results.  For example, let me assure you
that grinding up experts and feeding them as hamburgers to novices
will not turn the novices into experts; in fact, it doesn't even work
for planaria, as a few people thought for a short time.  I even
received one argument that cognitive-psychology-based science fiction
was not possible by definition because psychology is not a science.

     Well, I am happy to report that I have finally found one such
usage of cognitive psychology in James Hogan's new book CODE OF THE
LIFEMAKER.  In particular, near the beginning of the book, Hogan
applies the concept of category prototypes to explain how one of the
characters can fool people into thinking he can read their minds.
Discovering this example application encourages me to repeat my query.
Anyone seen any other examples of using cognitive psychology
principles and results in Science Fiction?

     By the way, I am about halfway through the CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER
and I am finding it very entertaining (but then I have liked all of
Hogan's books).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 83 01:04 EDT
From: Steve Platt <Platt%UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Rudy Rucker books

     In the past two weeks, I have read Rucker's "57th Franz Kafka",
"Sex Sphere", and "Spacetime Donuts".  Sometime past, I had also read
around half of "Software" before losing the book...  this makes me
somewhat qualified to comment on his writing.

     Rudy Rucker is to curved spacetime what Larry Niven is to black
holes.

     All of what I have read is quite good, quite enjoyable.  But
then, I enjoy the highly mathematical basis for the writing.  His
method of teaching/demonstrating gravity, curvature, creating pocket
universes, Schroedinger's cat nonparadox, etc. is very well done -- I
now have no problem visualizing a good portion of the modern physics
he presents.  (BTW, I don't think Wilson really understood or fully
utilized Schroedinger's cat -- see "Schroedinger's Cat" in the "Kafka"
book, and compare to Wilson's universe(s).) (And at last, time travel
paradoxes are resolved, in a manner!)

     "57'th Franz Kafka" -- all short stories.  The best of what I
have read -- Rucker writes quite good short stories.  (No crime in
excelling in short stories.  Arthur Clarke, a most respected author,
is a 5* short story writer, but only a 2 1/2 * novelist.)  Rating: 4 -
4 1/2 *.

     "Sex Sphere" -- Novel, described in yesterday's SFL.  Enjoyable,
flowed nicely.  Good visualizations of polydimensional space.  3 1/2 *

     "Spacetime Donuts" -- slightly more difficult to visualize what
is happening.  (This is an earlier work, but not by much.)  3 *

     General comments: Admittedly I have OD'ed on Rucker.  It's the
first really hardcore SF I've read in a while; as a defrocked
mathematician, I appreciate the envisionments offered.  It seems that
every other story or chapter brings in a lineland or flatland
visualization of polyspace, and it does get repetitive after a while.
I hope Rucker develops beyond this, or can integrate the theory more
smoothly into his stories.  Consistencies and cutenesses: he has some
"continuing characters", business/scientistpeople Harry and Joe; in
addition, random references to Alvin Bitter, his alter ego (as in
Rudolph von Bitter Rucker...), etc.

     Recommendation: read his books, don't be scared off by any of the
concepts involved.

     Final note: All you alternate universe people: Consider the
Flatland model of a long series of planar spaces, laid on top of one
another.  They can be viewed as separate universes, labelled by the dZ
from some base universe.  This gives an aleph-1 number of universes,
each distinguishable from one another.  Now take an infinite (again
a-1) sequence of universes labelled in this manner, separated along
the W-axis.  Our universes are now labelled by [dz,dw] (still a-1).
There is no reason we cannot repeat this step an arbitrary number of
times, resulting in universe labels, each of which consists of an
uncountably infinite number of nonrational numbers... this leaves us
with an aleph-2 number of universes (that's the infinity *after* the
infinity **after** the integer infinity we normally deal with...)!!!
There is no reason we can't increase our labelling to the level of
aleph-3 or beyond... you'll have to excuse me here, I was defrocked
about the time of aleph-0 and am walking on unsteady waters.  But I'll
part with the concept of aleph-(aleph-0).

     And some other notes: Even if you could label your universe by
the statevector of all the particles (see Heisenberg, Werner,
"Uncertainty Principle"), storing the information would be a bit of a
problem (see Goedel, Kurt, "Incompleteness Theorem").

    "Schroedinger's cat is sitting on Heisenberg's shoulder, and
        they are both laughing at me."

--steve platt
platt.upenn@udel-relay

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Sep 83 0004-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #88
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 23 Sep 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 88

Today's Topics:
 Discussion - SF & Literary Merit (4 msgs) & Adolescent SF (5 msgs) &
              Alternate Worlds & Short Good SF (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 83 09:49:40 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: SF & Literary Merit

     I usually try to avoid comments on "literary merit" in *any*
genre, be it SF, mainstream, new wave, 18th Century travelogues, or
comic books, but I don't think the lack of respondents to the recent
query on lit merit in SF means SF is lacking in same.  I think it only
shows that "lasting" lit merit is, obviously, not something that can
be predicted in the same age as a given work is written.  By modern
standards of authorship, Dickens was a hack.  He wrote serials for the
common reader to enjoy.  He banged them out regularly, some more
successfully than others.  What has made his works to be considered
today to have "lasting literary merit" is their themes (among other
things; forgive me if I oversimplify).  Whether any of the mentioned
"meritorious" SF is going to last can only be determined by history,
not by surveys of biased audiences and not by critical analysis such
as in the journal "Science Fiction Studies".

     It's also difficult to talk about lasting merit nowadays (was it
ever easy?)  because a) lit scholars are forever searching for new
fields to mine, leading to discussions of the merit of works that
would probably have passed mercifully from human memory had not a
doctoral student needed a fresh work to hunt themes and motifs in, and
b) due to this search, publishers are reprinting or allowing to stay
in print works that, again, should be allowed to rest in peace.

     Time Machine Department: come back in about 50 - 100 years and
see how much of mainstream fiction, westerns, SF, etc., has survived.
THEN we can talk about lit merit.

     By the way, what do you think of H.G. Wells or Jules Verne?

                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: Thu 22 Sep 83 10:45:42-EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: High literary quality F & SF

     Being guilty myself of not replying to the original survey, let
me remedy this by voting for three authors whose literary merit is
high, but were left off the list, apparently.

     * Ray Bradbury--for his short stories, not his "novels"; Bradbury
has written some of the most haunting stories I've ever read: "The
Watchful Pokerchip of H. Matisse", for example.

     * Theodore Sturgeon--another non-novelist, though "More than
Human" is superb; his short stories are insightful and unique.

     * Fritz Leiber--though Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are fun, try
"Our Lady of the Shadows" and "The Wanderer".

------------------------------

Date: 22 September 1983 0937-pdt
From: Jerry Bakin    <Bakin @ HI-MULTICS>
Subject: Merit Survey Results

     I'm not sure what most readers think, (or even if most readers
think) but I do not feel the conclusion that "...Science Fiction and
Fantasy writers, for the most part, are incapable of writing novels of
lasting literary merit..."  is valid.

     As a refutation from an author's point of view, I suggest reading
Isaac Asimov's editorial in the latest "Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction
Magazine", he definitely feels that science fiction writers are
capable of writing stories of great literary merit, and lists evidence
from the literary field to prove it.

     Personally I happen to feel the lack of response is apathy
coupled with the enormous task set before anyone responding to the
query.  I have been reading science fiction since elementary school,
at least twelve years.  In that time I have read an enormous amount of
science fiction, but there are few authors whom I have read all of.
We're supposed to categorize the best of the authors?  Sorry, the
reason most people can list the "Best of Hawthorne", or the "Best of
Kipling" or the Best of Anyone, is because someone said "Read this
book, it is considered a classic", not because someone said, "Read all
the author's books, and you tell me which the classics are." It is not
necessarily true that it is hard to tell what a classic is, but
standing in the paperback section, amidst many titles, from many
different authors, you can't easily pick the classics from the crap.

     So the question of which books are classics is difficult to
answer for at least two reasons: The research most people have put
into the question has been spent over a prolonged period of time, with
little note taking, and with various other details coming into the
researcher's life to play havoc with his memories of "that was a good
book", and few people have made exhaustive studies of an author's
works.  (I did, or tried to, but my limited allowance when I was
trying, prevented this for all but about three or four authors -- and
it wasn't an intended study, but just getting the most for my buck:
"Boy that Niven guy sure writes well, maybe I'll buy his other books
instead of looking at this guy's book.")

Anyway I've flamed long enough,

Jerry Bakin <Bakin at HI-Multics>

------------------------------

Date: 23-Sep-83 15:04:55-EDT
From: sorceror@LL.ARPA
Subject: Comments on the Results of the Literary Merit Survey

     The results of the literary merit survey suggest to me that many
people have difficulty distinguishing between works of literary merit,
and works which are considered classics according to the canon of the
SF field. While many of the nominations seemed valid, the list also
included some of those "classics" which have never struck me as being
literary. Such works have been accorded their classic status because
they introduced ideas which have become important conventions of the
genre, or because they combined and developed old premises in a
particularly skillful way. On the other hand, literary criteria
concern both skillful, sensitive use of language, and the ability to
engage the reader in holistic way.

     Comments, anyone ?

            Having cast a Spell of Fire-Resistance,

                   Karl Heinemann
                    (SORCEROR at LL)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 83 15:14:44 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay
Subject: Junevile SF

Folks,

     I would suggest the Flinx series by Alan Dean Foster.  These box
are generally quite readable and fast paced, with the plots fairly
inter- esting.  The protagonist ages from 14 or so up to 17 or 18 in
the first four books, and is seen at a much later date in the last
book in a co-starring role.  The sequence is:

        For Love of Mother-Not
        The Tar-Aiym Krang  ( I think )
        Orphan Star
        The End of the Matter
        BloodHype

     Also by Foster, the book "Iceworld" and it's sequel "Mission to
Moulokin are good too.  These books, with the exception of "FLOMN" are
Foster's earlier work, and better than the drivel he has been coming
up with lately, like "The Man Who Used the Universe", or any of his
movies novelizations.

     The Svetz stories by Larry Niven, compiled in "The Fight of the
Horse" are also on a level to be enjoyed to younger people, although
these stories were not written with that market in mind.  They are
just good SF.  As for myself, I was blooded on Bradbury's "Something
Wicked This Way Comes", and SF has been an addiction ever since.

     Also, does anybody know if The Restaurant at the End of the
Universe is out in paper back yet ??

                Dave Godwin, UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: 21 September 1983 21:13 edt
From: Bergman.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS (Michael Bergman)
Subject: juvenile sf

     I would like to plug for A Wrinkle in Time, as well as The Arm of
the Starfish, by Madeline L'Engle.  Also most of Andre Norton's stuff.
There is a bookstore in New York City that specializes in sf/fantasy
for young readers.  I have their catalog somewhere, when I find it,
I'll post their address.

     Oh yeah.  The Phantom Tollbooth.  I don't recall the author's
name, but I think the illustrations were done by Feiffer, the
political cartoonist.

  --mike bergman
    bergman.softarts@mit-multics

------------------------------

Date: 21 September 1983 21:14 edt
From: Bergman.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS (Michael Bergman)
Subject: Re: more juvenile books

     Fantasy: Anything by Edward Eager or E. Nesbit.

     SF/Fantasy: Merlin's mistake, I'm not sure who it's by.  Peter
Dickinson's "The Weathermonger", "Heartsease", and a couple others.

     Joan Aiken writes some good stuff in each category.

     The White Mountains series, by John Christopher (I think).  "The
City of Gold and Lead" is one of the titles.  He has also written some
other good stuff.  SF, after holocaust (TWM series is about a war of
the worlds style invasion).

     "The Standing Stones" and whatever else the author (whoever she
is) has written.  fantasy, set in Ireland.

     "Magic to Burn".  Fantasy.  Leprechauns transported to America.

     "The Night Life of the Gods" by Thorne Smith.  Read this one
yourself before deciding whether it's kids stuff.  I read it as an
impressionable child, didn't understand the parts that would have been
"bad" for me.  Enjoyed it anyway.  Fits in both categories.

     The Narnia books.  I know they've already been mentioned.

     "Dolphin Island" Arthur C. Clarke.  One of the few marine biology
sf books.  Ben Bova has one, too.  Both have young protagonists,
Clarke's in particular is a runaway. Also Gordon R. Dickson's "Home
from the Shore" and sequels.  And the aforementioned "Arm of the
Starfish", and "Sea Siege" by Andre Norton.  Follow with "The Day of
the Dolphin" when the kid gets older.

     Diana Gwynn Jones "Charmed Life" and others.  Fantasy.

     Robert Asprin's "Another Fine Myth".  Start 'em young, they'll
keep rereading it 'till they get all the jokes.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1983 11:37:07 PDT
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: SF for kids

     My first two SF books were "The Secret of Saturn's Rings" by
Donald A. Wolheim, and "Operation Springboard", author unknown.  I
think I was about eight at the time.  I also read my first comic book
then, a DC mag, "Action", starring the Legion of Super-Heroes in the
30th century.  If anyone knows the author to "O.S.", please clue me
in.

     Other goodies were:

The Marvelous Inventions of Alvin Fernald

The Mad Scientists' Club

Spaceship Under the Apple Tree  ( Especially good was the part
                                where the alien didn't want the
                                boy to go to "General Store": he
                                thought his visit to Earth would
                                be revealed to the military.)

The Time Machine series ( These two books were published by the
                        Boy Scouts, I think.  Two present-day scouts
                        find a time-machine, and team up with a bald,
                        toothless scout from the future and a slave-
                        gladiator from ancient Rome.  I remember a
                        part in which they make an enemy think he's
                        surrounded by time machines, by re-visiting
                        the same time period again and again.)

Black and Blue Magic    ( By Zilpha Keatley Snyder.  A fantasy.)

The Tom Swift series    ( flying lab, jetmarine, electronic
                        retroscope, triphibian atomicar...)

The Space Eagle         ( published by Whitman- you know, those
                        hardcover books in the same rack as coloring
                        books, with a picture on every other page-
                        Space Eagle was good, with his SWIFT: Space
                        Warp Infinity-Finity Transport.)

     Also read lots of comics, especially DC- Superman, Superboy,
Action, Batman, World's Finest (Superman-Batman team-ups).  Good stuff
in the mid to late 60's.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 83 23:38:30-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!decwrl!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SF for kids

     I started sf as a kid on the numerous Heinlein "juvies". eg Time
for the Stars, Rolling Stones, etc. They were good sf, good physics,
engineering, relativity, good intro to RAH philosophical gibberish.
There may be better stuff since then. Any suggestions out there?

                Jeff Bulf
                {decvax.decwrl}!qubix!jdb

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1983  22:59 EDT (Thu)
From: Stephen R. Balzac <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Alternate worlds as inspirational source

     How about the Chronicles of Amber by Zelazny?  That's an
interesting treatment of the alternate worlds idea.  For those who
haven't read it, this presents the idea that all worlds are but
shadows of the real world of Amber.  The narrator is Corwin, one of
the princes of Amber.  He and all those of the royal blood have the
power, granted them through something called the Pattern, of "walking"
from one world to another by simply imagining where they want to go,
and then making their surroundings correspond with their desires.  But
if I say anymore, it might spoil the story for someone, so I'll end
here.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 83 22:56:39-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!gant @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: short SF query - (nf)

     "The Word for World is Forest," by Kate Wilhelm(?)

alan gant
parsec!gant

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 83 8:37:54-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!yale-com!leichter @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: short SF query - (nf)

     I don't know what the original question was, but "The Word for
World is Forest" is by Ursula LeGuin, not Kate Wilhelm.  It's a
novella that has appeared in at least one of her collections and was
re-issued as a whole book about a year and a half ago.  (To get a
reasonable size, they used a LOT of whitespace on the pages, a large
font, etc.; typical ripoff.)  TWFWIF is part of LeGuin's Hainish
series, the best-known (and best) member of which is "The Left Hand of
Darkness".  TWFWIF is LeGuin at her preachiest; some of it works, much
of it comes across as the novelization of every 70's
ecology/peace/love manifesto you ever saw.

                                    -- Jerry
                    decvax!yale-comix!leichter leichter@yale

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 83 13:26:20-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!ariels @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: short stuff

     AAAGH!

     "The Word For World is Forest" is an Ursula K. LeGuin novella.

     Get your Oregon female authors straight!

     How about Vonda N. McIntyre's "Aztecs" ? Very good, and its now
incorporated into her latest full-length novel.

     Then there's Joan D. Vinge's "Mother and Child", which is paired
with her "Fireship" in the book by that name.  Much better than the
title story, in my opinion.

     Ursula's also done a good novelette by the name of "The Eye of
the Heron".  It can be found in it's own book, but was originally in
"Millenial Women".

     I also enjoyed John Varley's "Persistence of Vision", though I'm
not sure if that's a novelette or just a short story.

     I really enjoy reading short story anthologies, whether all the
same author or a compilation of a number of authors.  They're just
long enough for a lunch break or before bed, but you don't have to
interrupt your reading for things you have to do (like work...).

Ariel Shattan
dekvax!tektronix!tekecs!ariels

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Sep 83 0010-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #89
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 24 Sep 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 89

Today's Topics:
          Books - David Brin & L. Sprague De Camp (2 msgs),
                 Conventions - SF Cons List Updated,
                      Television - Star Blazers,
          Film - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Nightmares (3 msgs) &
                      SF Film Production Opinion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 0:22:34-EDT (Tue)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekcad!keithl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Get STARTIDE RISING and read it NOW

     I just finished reading STARTIDE RISING by David Brin. Exciting.
Thought provoking.  Well constructed.  Your basic masterpiece.  Stop
reading this now and go out and buy it.

     Oh, so you're going to need more convincing?  OK, here goes.
This is NOT a spoiler, just a taste of the frosting on top:

     In Brin's universe the galaxy is populated by PATRON and CLIENT
races.  Patron races find semi-sentient races, and raise them to full
sentience through genetic manipulation, education, coercion and
enslavement.  The Client races, after finishing their indenture
(lasting hundreds of thousands of years) are then free to become
Patrons and find their own Clients.  The process has been repeated for
billions of years, back to the legendary PROGENITORS.  All races in
the galaxy have developed through this process.

     Except humanity.  There is a debate as to whether we were
abandoned by our Patrons, or that we evolved into intelligence
ourselves.  The second view is considered unlikely by the Galactics
who have never seen this happen before.  We built our own starships
and genetically manipulated the chimpanzees and the dolphins into full
intelligence, without apparent help.  When we came in contact with the
Galactics, we were reluctantly granted Patron status, but are
relatively powerless to deal with the great competing power blocks in
the galaxy.

     The human-dolphin crewed starship Streaker was sent out on a
research mission, to sample-check the accuracy of the LIBRARY, a
multi-copy database system containing recorded information from the
beginning of recorded history, for the entire galaxy (sort of a cross
between the Library of Congress and the Hitchhiker's Guide).  We find
discrepancies, but more importantly, we find a vast fleet of ships
that may be the Progenitors.  All the religious fanatics in the galaxy
attack Streaker (but mostly each other), to find the whereabouts of
the fleet.  The damaged Streaker hides in the ocean of the planet
Kithrup, with the crew planning it's escape.  A battle rages overhead.

     No spoilers here; this much of the plot is revealed in the first
few pages.  About half-a-dozen subplots intertwine through the book,
with brilliant imagery, dolphin haiku, machiavellian alien scheming,
betrayals, personal growth, space battles, audacious plans, ad
glorious infinitem.

     Unless something even more marvelous happens between now and
January, this book is DEFINITELY getting my HUGO vote.  Brin has
written another (only "good") book in this universe, with different
characters.  I hope for many more.

     A word of warning: don't pick up the book after 6 PM.  You may
want to savor it's 460 pages, and you will not want to put it down.  I
finished at 3 AM.  Take a day off from work instead.  Don't wait for
the weekend.  Be COMPULSIVE!

>From the tired but happy fingers of:
--
Keith Lofstrom
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!tekcad!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 23 September 1983 16:41 edt
From: Bergman.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS (Michael Bergman)
Subject: Re: enchanters

     Actually, the Wall of Serpents has been reprinted in the last 6
or 7 years as the Complete (eat?) Enchanter.  I don't recall whether
this is just the Wall of Serpents, or contains the Incomplete
Enchanter as well.  I think it was ACE, but don't quote me.

  --mike bergman
    bergman.softarts@mit-multics

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 83 11:56 EDT
Subject: enchanters

     THE WALL OF SERPENTS has been reprinted (in pb) sometime in the
past 2 or 3 years, I think it was by Ace or Dell.  I'll try and find
my copy this weekend and let y'all know on Monday...

                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 1983 0148-PDT
From: Zellich@OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons List Updated

     OFFICE-3 file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready
for FTP.  OFFICE-3 supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within
FTP, using any password.

     For those not familiar with this file, it is a list of SF-related
conventions worldwide, with a geographic cross-reference; the list
currently contains 85 cons in 8 countries, with 31 US states
represented, and covers dates from 23 Sep 83 to 3 Sep 84.

     CONS.TXT is currently 1013 lines (or 51,623 characters).  Please
try to limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if
possible, as the system is heavily loaded during the day.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 83 18:00:07-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!mae @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Star Blazers

     Where has anyone out there seen the third season in English?  I
didn't think any markets had picked it up yet, though I had heard it
was done. I've seen 23 out of 25 episodes but only in Japanese.  The
animation is crude in the first series but gets better with each
season.  The movies are really spectacular - lots of multiplane
animation used in battle sequences.  But then even the crudest recent
Japanese animation looks good compared to what passes for animation
now for American tv.

     To correct a bit of confusion - The Empire in the second season
of Star Blazers was the Comet Empire.  It had absolutely nothing to do
with communism - Emperor Zwordar was an absolute ruler, disregard the
American version calling him a prince.  Comet refers to the fact that
the city/military base that housed the seat of government was built on
an asteroid and traveled surrounded by a white force field that
streamed out behind it.  This looked like a comet entering a planetary
system so the intended victims didn't know what was really coming
until too late.  It was referred to as either the White Comet or the
Comet Empire.

                        Mary Anne Espenshade
                        ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 22 September 1983, 18:58-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds <cwr%SCRC-Tenex@MIT-MC>
Subject: Star Trek and Milton

"Date: 18 Sep 83 16:57:00-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!lzmi!ziegler @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Melville in Space

"... a reference to Milton.  Something like "Better to rule in Hell
that to reign in Heaven.""

     I think it was: "Better to rule in Hell than to SERVE in Heaven."

     Clearly this guy was a manager.

-c

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 83  22:15 EDT (Thu)
From: Mijjil the Hutt (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: Melville in Space

     Khan asked Kirk if he had ever read Milton.  Kirk replied to the
affirmative, understanding the reference.  Later, Scotty admitted to
NOT knowing Milton (a shameful thing for a Scot to admit) and asked
about the reference.  Kirk explained the quote from Paradise Lost.

     "Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven."

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Sep 83 17:34:57 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS>
Subject: Film:"Nightmares"

     "Nightmares" is an anthology horror film composed of four
completely unrelated segments.  The one referred to was "The Bishop of
Battle".  It featured some fairly good vector graphics,but nothing
really amazing.  They were rather well integrated with the live action
footage.  The plot concerned a kid who is obsessed with video games,
in particular one which claims to have thirteen levels, though no one
has ever gotten above twelfth.  The kid finds out what thirteenth
level is like.  This episode is passable, but it's probably the best
of the four.  The others are very derivative and not too well
executed.  It's not worth seeing for the one episode alone.

                                                Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Sep 83 19:47 EDT
From: Winston B. Edmond <wbe@BBN-VAX>
Subject: Re: Real World Video Games

     In answer to Denber.WBST@PARC-MAXC.ARPA:

     "Did you see the film of the arcade game fanatic who thinks he's
finally won when the machine collapses in a heap in front of him, only
to find he's now on "level 13" where alien battle cruisers are now
floating around the room shooting *real* lasers at him, blasting out
chunks of nearby walls?"

     I saw Nightmares last weekend.  Chapter 2, entitled "Bishop of
Battle", fits your description exactly.  The rest of the movie wasn't
so bad either, although I found it rather predictable.

 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 1983 10:49-EDT
From: york at scrc-vixen
Subject: Re: Real Life Videogames

     Yes, that SigGraph clip was indeed a scene from Nightmares.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 22 September 1983, 18:54-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds <cwr%SCRC-Tenex@MIT-MC>
Subject: Holloywood

"Date: 21 Sep 1983 2313-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: I, Robot movie

"... I don't trust any movie studio not to utterly screw up any *real*
science fiction, since they don't understand it out there."

     Speaking as one from "out there" and as one who has worked for
movie studios on science fiction films, I feel that statement is
over-general and misdirected.  There are many other issues which
control these films and the treatment they receive.  There is no lack
of understanding of science fiction on the west coast, nor among those
in the movie industry.  Perhaps you could point out some of the "good"
science fiction movies which have been produced on the east coast that
you base your comparison on?  (Keep in mind that about 30 to 40% of
movie production happens in and around New York.)

 -c

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Sep 83 2051-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #90
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 26 Sep 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 90

Today's Topics:
         Books - David Brin (2 msgs) & Juvenile SF (6 msgs),
             Discussion - SF & Literary Merit (2 msgs) &
                          Short SF (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 8:44:05-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!yale-com!leichter @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Get STARTIDE RISING and read it NOW

     Brin's "other book" in the same universe is "Sun Diver".  Since
it takes place some 200 years or so earlier, it's not surprising that
there are no common characters - although the effects of some of the
actions taking in Sun Diver are still apparent.  (Sun Diver -
actually, could be Sundiver - contains some obvious hooks for a
"prequel" concerning its main character,but it doesn't (yet) exist.)

     I liked STARTIDE RISING, but must disagree with Mr. Lofstrom; I
thought Sun Diver was better.  A big part is a matter of taste for
"hard" vs. "soft" sf.  Sun Diver is quite "hard".  The physics is
worked out and discussed and seems to make sense.  STARTIDE RISING
doesn't even try; the oddball technologies are just "there", no
explanation, no nothing.  You could use it, I guess, as an example of
Clark's Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguish-
able from magic.

     Brin has published at least one short story (I'm sure there are
more), "The Loom of Thessaly" (Nov. '81 Asimov's).  It's excellent.
(It's also unrelated to the universe of his two novels.)

     An author worth watching.

                                    -- Jerry
                    decvax!yale-comix!leichter leichter@yale

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 83 12:37:45-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxi!mhuxj!mhuxl!achilles!smb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Get STARTIDE RISING and read it NOW

     I have to agree with the rave review of "Startide Rising".  I
picked it up solely on the basis of previous positive reviews I saw on
the net; I don't regret it at all.  As soon as I finished it, I went
out and picked up his other book, "Sundiver".  It wasn't nearly as
good a book in many respects, but the worst part was that I felt I was
starting at the second book of a series.  ("Startide Rising" and
"Sundiver" are set in the same universe, but do not share any
characters.)  Were there previous works involving the characters from
"Sundiver"?

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 6:05:35-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!cca!ima!cfib!craig @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF for Adolescents - (nf)

     These are more fantasy than sci-fi but how about Lloyd
Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain (5 vols)?  I first read them when I
was about 11.  Also Ursula K. LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea trilogy?
Also try Patricia McKillip's Riddlemaster of Hed trilogy.

     I'd also second the recommendation of Arthur C. Clarke's works.

Craig Partridge
...ima!cfib!craig

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 83 10:33:21 EDT
From: SOMMERS@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Juvenile SF

     Well I started on my step-father's collections of 50's and 40's
short stories.  What I remember impressing me most was

By the Waters of Babylon        Stephen Vincent Benet

First Encounter (I think)       ?

various "humorous" short stories

Most of Poe's stories.

     I still think that short stories are very often the best
introduction to SF - and they often have a higher quality than the
novels.  Modern collections that I could imagine a bright kid enjoying
are

The Barbie Murders              John Varley

Four for Tomorrow               Roger Zelazny

The Best of Cordwainer Smith

I Have no Mouth and I must
Scream                          Harlan Ellison

A lot of the Best of collections
by early writers such as Stanley Weintraub.

     I would probably discourage a kid from reading Delany and most of
Sturgeon until they were in their mid-teens....some ideas can come too
soon.

     As for novels - I guess I got it backwards - I didn't read the
juvies until I was in my late 20's....I read what was around the
house.  What impressed me as a kid (that I can remember) was

Cities in Flight                James Blish

Some Bradbury (I dislike fantasy)

Everything by Cordwainer Smith

Anything by Asimov or RAH

Most of Ellison

Lovecraft (in small doses).

Around the World in 80 Days     Jules Verne

     These days I would also recommend

     Anything by Zelazny, Niven and McCaffrey....I also like
Darkover...but this, I am well aware, is a matter of taste.  I can not
imagine a kid not going for the Lensmen or the Skylark series.

     I guess I am trying to say that kids will enjoy books of quality,
and will rarely put up with poor writing, no matter how "important"
the message.  They sort of self-censor.  Please introduce them to
Cordwainer Smith, Cyril Kornbluth, "There Will Come Soft Rains".  If
you think it is worth reading, the chances are that they will also.
If you are worried about sex in SF, it was verboten until the late
60's, so hand them the classics.  A child who doesn't know about sex
will probably ignore it in the book anyway...I know I did.

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 83 10:14:20-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxe!burton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SF for Kids

     One of my favorite 'adolescent SF' authors was John Christopher.
I read the trilogy consisting of "The White Mountains", "The City of
Gold and Lead" and "The Pool of Fire" when I was in 7th grade, and
thoroughly enjoyed them. I haven't read any of his other works, which
appear to be more fantasy and less SF (which isn't a criticism, by the
way). Highly recommended, especially since adolescents are the heroes;
I felt I could relate better to young teens attempting to save the
world than I could to adults or even older teens.

     Also, Alan Nourse wrote a novel called "The Universe Between"; it
was my first introduction to higher dimensions and alternate
universes, and also had young protagonists.

     A book I recently re-read, which I enjoyed in elementary school,
was "A Wrinkle in Time" by Madeliene L'Engle; its the first book in a
trilogy, and the later books have a strong religious tone (sort of
like C.S. Lewis); still, they were rather good. Again, young
protagonists are featured. I believe the other books are "The Wind in
the Door" and "A Swiftly Tilting Planet".

     For much younger readers, there is the Tycho Bass series (I
forget the author) and the "ZipZip and the Flying Saucer" books; I
read these in elementary school. They may be out of print now; I
remember trying to find them once a few years back, without much
success.

     And of course, how can anyone forget the Danny Dunn series (well,
we can try). I remember being on waiting lists at my elementary school
library for the "new Danny Dunn book". Such titles as "Danny Dunn on
the Ocean Floor" and "Danny Dunn and the Smallifying Machine" cannot
readily be forgotten. Sigh.

Doug Burton
inuxe!burton
ATTCP - IN

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 83 16:22:17-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!mtplx1!msk @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF for Kids

     I too highly recommend "A Wrinkle in Time" - but I never knew
that 2 more books in a trilogy existed.

     Also I could just kill my mother for giving away my complete set
of TOM SWIFT books - talk about juvenile sci-fi - these were great
when I was very young.  Now that I have sons of my own,... Oh well, we
all know how mothers can be sometimes (NO FLAMES PLEASE - I was just
recollecting; now I want those books for my sons but at the time I was
glad to donate them to a library where other youngsters could get as
turned on to sci-fi as I had been.)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 83 16:39:27-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Sci-fi for Adolescents

     A very interesting book, and one I feel would be especially good
for adolescents (I read it myself in 7th grade or so), is the little
known "Hiero's Journey" by Sterling Lanier. It has recently been
re-released (I lost my copy and picked a new one up). While the
characters/conflicts are very black and white, it is still an en-
joyable tale.

     It concerns our hero, Hiero, on a post-holocaust journey to
rediscover the knowledge of the "Ancients" and their marvelously
powerful device, the "computer". In this far future society, many have
vast telepathic powers (including the bad guys)--even the many species
of mutated animals, some of which show decidedly un-animal-like
intelligence.

     To reveal anything more would constitute a spoiler, so I will
cease and desist. If you like your post-holocaust sci-fi with a dab of
fantasy and Tolkeinesque (no vast claims here..) flavor, I highly
recommend it.

                        SJBerry

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 1983 12:30:48 PDT
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: Correction-re:kid sf

     Sorry, it was Adventure, not Action comics that featured the
Legion of Super Heroes back in the 60s.  Action featured Superman.
Comics were fun, but listening with super-hearing through the vacuum
of space always bothered me.  So did "seeing" (with super-vision,
galactic monitor, cosmo-scope,etc) present events on a planet
light-years away.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 10:57:13 PDT (Monday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF & Literary Merit

''I think it only shows that "lasting" lit merit is, obviously, not
something that can be predicted in the same age as a given work is
written.''

     Then why is it that the Pulitzer Prize for literature is awarded
to contemporary authors for contemporary works?

     More to the point, why is it that NO writer of Science Fiction or
Fantasy has ever won a Pulitzer Prize for his or her work in these
fields?

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 11:23:07 PDT (Monday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Merit Survey Results

''In that time I have read an enormous amount of science fiction,
but there are few authors whom I have read all of. We're supposed to
categorize the best of the authors?''

     Well, obviously one can say nothing about books one has never
read.  But of the books you have read, which INDIVIDUAL works struck
you as having great literary merit?  This was the (obvious, or so I
thought,) point of the survey.  No where did I say that ALL authors
must be surveyed, nor did I require that all of an author's works be
read.

''So the question of which books are classics is difficult to answer
for at least two reasons: The research most people have put into the
question has been spent over a prolonged period of time, with little
note taking, and with various other details coming into the
researcher's life to play havoc with his memories...''

     Does one have to take notes to remember that "The Man in the High
Castle," was unforgettable?  Do I have to go back and re-read "The
Lord of the Rings" to convince myself that indeed it was a classic? In
point of fact, I have read "The Lord of the Rings" exactly once, and
that was 12 years ago!  Tolkien's work had such a profound impact on
me that I can still remember certain passages almost word- for-word.

     It seems to me that the "classic's" are the works that you
remember without any effort.  That is at least one criteria I use to
define a "classic."

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 83 03:50:56 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: great short stories

The Emperor's Songbird by Orsen Scott Card;

Shattered Like A Glass Goblin
I'm Looking for Kadak
Hindsight:480 seconds
Rain,Rain, Go Away
A Boy and His Dog
Santa Claus vs. S.P.I.D.E.R.
                            by Harlan Ellison

What Can be Said About Chocolate-covered Manhole Covers
  (title approximate) by Larry Niven

If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?
                            Theodore Sturgeon

Requiem
Lost Legacy  by Robert Heinlein

Buy Jupiter by Isaac Asimov

     Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. There
are lots more that I can't remember because of time.....

/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 9:08:53-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: short SF query - (nf)

     If you want to find good shorter science fiction (well... lets
say better than the average) look at:

1) The Hugo Winners - Isaac Asimov has published 3 volumes, from
   the beginning of the award to about 1976(??).

2) The Nebula Winners - Each year's non-novel winners are
   published in a single volume by various editors.

3) The Science Fiction Hall of Fame - This (I think) bears some
   relationship to the Nebula winners - maybe SFWA's picks of good
   stories from before when Nebulas were given.  Anyway, this is
   considered a good collection (I think it has 3 volumes spread
   over 5 or 6 books).

                        Cliff Shaffer
                        {seismo,mcnc,we13}!rlgvax!cvl!cas

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 83 11:59:20-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Hall of Fame

     I agree with the favorable review of the Science Fiction Hall of
Fame, but factual information on the series was lacking.  I'll attempt
to rectify this.

     The SF Hall of Fame is a three-volume set, consisting of the
initial volume of short stories, volumes 2a and 2b of novelettes and
novellas, and volume 3 of the initial Nebula winners.  It is published
under the auspices of the Science Fiction Writers of America (SFWA),
the SF equivalent of the Writers' Guild.  The information herein is
from prefatory material in the books.

     The intent of volume 1 was to present extremely noteworthy
science fiction short stories which were published before the SFWA
began to award Nebulas in the 1960's.  Thus, you can consider it a
sort of "retroactive Nebula".  Volume 1 was the only one originally
planned, but it was received so well that they decided to issue
another anthology, this one for stories which were too long for volume
1.  Volume 2, published in two physical volumes (2a and 2b), contains
those novelettes and novellas published before the Nebula award which
were deemed sufficiently meritous by the SFWA.

     Volume 3 is quite recent.  It contains all the stories of any
length (except novels) which won the Nebula award in the first four or
five years of its receipt.  The quality is nowhere near that of the
first two volumes, but it is still quite good.  (A lot of the
runners-up should have won it, in my estimation, but that's to be
expected.)  Presumably, further volumes are forthcoming, collecting
more Nebula-winning stories.

     There is also the annual Nebula collection.  These collections
contain both Nebula winners and noteworthy runners-up.  Obviously, if
you have all these, you don't need volume 3 of the Hall of Fame, or
any of the later volumes when they come out.

     In summary, the first two volumes of the SF Hall of Fame are what
I would consider indispensable to anyone with an SF library.  The
third volume, and all the Nebula collections, are highly recommended,
but I wouldn't call them indispensable.

___________
Tim Maroney
duke!unc!tim (USENET)
tim.unc@udel-relay (ARPA)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 83 13:35:10-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.pur-phy!dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: Short Stuff

     I'd like to put in my two sentences worth and say that "True
Names" by Vernor Vinge is another short novel that can go on that
"Short Stuff" list.

                         D. Bartholomew

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Sep 83 2147-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #91
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 Sep 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 91

Today's Topics:
                 Film - General Comment About Film &
    Brainstorm & Krull & Liquid Sky & A Boy and His Dog (5 msgs),
                        Books - Douglas Adams,
              Radio - Hitch-Hiker's Guide to The Galaxy,
            Records - Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy &
                            Dr. Who album,
                         Television -Dr. Who,
                  News - Organ Banks Today? (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 83 18:53:38-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!jack @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: yes, we know it's just a movie - (nf)

     Hear hear!  I, too, have had my fill of comments like:

     "Hey, you idiots, it's just a tv show/movie/book!  The writer
screwed up!"

     Let it be said that we all know that this degenerate solution
exists, and that we choose to seek other, more interesting, solutions.

                    -Jack Applin IV
                    (ucbvax!decvax!cca!sri-unix!hplabs!hp-dcd!jack)

------------------------------

Date: 27-Sep-83 00:16 PDT
From: William Daul-Tymshare Inc. Cupertino CA <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2>
Subject: Anyone seen a pre-screening of BRAINSTORM?

     Well?  Thanks, --Bi<<

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 83 20:50:12-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!cmcl2!lanl-a!nmtvax!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Review of KRULL, aarf aarf aarf ... (FLAME)

     Don't see this movie.  It is a real dog...  It gets my vote for
worst movie ever made.  Your average kindergardener could have come up
with a better plot, or script for that matter.  The effects and
staging were so bad I saw a wrist watch on a actor at one point and
wire mesh showing through in the walls of the BAD guys big rock.  They
must have almost stolen have the music from every popular sf movie
made in the last six years.  Not even the family pet could stand this
one........

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 13:51:54-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxi!eagle!allegra!don @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: review of Liquid Sky

     "Liquid Sky" is about an alien who comes to the Earth to feed on
heroin and discovers that human endorphines are much better.  Thus, it
starts killing people while they are having sex.  It parks its craft
on the roof of a burnt-out New Wave fashion model, and all of a sudden
her lovers start vanishing in a flash when they have orgasm.  After
this happens a few times, she starts taking advantage of it by
seducing men who have hurt her.

     Most of the action and mood of the movie is centered on a group
of very burnt out, ultra trendy New York fashion models.  These people
have purple hair and take lots of drugs and wear amazing clothes, but
on the whole, the movie was very bad.  The acting is reminiscent of
cheap X-rated movies.  I would only recommend the movie to those who
would like to have a REALLY UNUSUAL visual experience.  Also, the
woman who plays Adrienne, the lesbian lover of the fatel fashion
model, is a strong and interesting character.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 15:55:47-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!cbosgd!cbdkc1!pyuxmm!pyuxnn!pyuxi!pyuxn!rlr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog (movie review)

     This is definitely one of the more bizarre films I've seen, but I
am still enthralled by the vivid post-holocaust imagery.  It is
definitely a movie that is 110% imagery and -10% substance, but great
imagery it is.  (An example is the screamers; they exist, they scream,
but the concept behind their existence is never defined; they seem to
be there just to be eerie.)  Contrary to what you said about the lack
of special effects disappointing hardcore SF fans, I think it will
only alienate advocates of SF as space westerns.  The reason that is
VERY sexist (which indeed it is) is that it was written by Harlan
Ellison (no more need be said).  I did not read the original story
(novella?), but I was told about it after seeing the movie.  The book
clarifies much of what is unclear in the movie, especially why the dog
can "talk" to the boy, why this is nothing unusual (in that
environment), and what the final scene really meant.  Does anyone know
where I can find the original story??  Thanx in advance.

                                Rich Rosen    pyuxn!rlr

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 9:34:18-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihopb!spear @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: A Boy and His Dog (movie review)

     A very interesting film.  It was getting mixed reviews from
people around us when we left the theater - some people really thought
it was awful, I sort of liked it.  Hard core sci-fi fans may be
disappointed since it has a minimum of special effects and such.
Mostly it is just a story of the relationship between a young man and
his mutant (?) dog.

     There is plenty of violence and nudity; lots of sex though not
graphic - all in all not a movie for children.  It is VERY sexist
(can't women fight for themselves in post-holocaust environment?).

     The film is well done - I thought it was well worth seeing.  The
surprise ending really drives the point home too.

Steve Spearman
ihnp4!ihopb!spear

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 14:23:33-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxs!engels @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog (movie review)

     Is this the same movie that was released in '75 or '76?

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 83 1:05:58-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!ittvax!sii!mem @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Where to find A Boy and His Dog

     I read "A Boy and His Dog" as a short story in an anthology
called "Dangerous Visions #1".  I understand that there is a
"Dangerous Visions" book which comprises all of the DV series.

Mark Mallett
decvax!sii!mem

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 11:53:36-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!jjm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog

     I thought I'd mention that A Boy and His Dog is based on a story
by Harlan Ellison...

        Jim McParland
        Until October:
        AT&T Information Systems Laboratories - Holmdel, NJ
        hou5e!jjm

        After October:
        AT&T Bell Laboratories - Murray Hill, NJ
        ????!???

------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1983 0853-PDT (Monday)
From: kelem at AEROSPACE (Steve Kelem)
Subject: Restaurant at the End of the Universe

re: request from ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay (Dave Godwin, UC
Irvine)

     All three of Douglas Adams' books have been out in paperback for
at least a few months.  Note that the further you get in the story,
the more divergence there is between the books (3 volumes), the tv
series (6 episodes), and the radio series (12 episodes).  (All have
been written by Douglas Adams.)  The tv series and the first six
episodes of the radio series covers most of the first two books.  The
second six episodes of the radio series covers the third book and then
some.  Adams said somewhere (I forget where) that he swore on his
father's grave that he wouldn't write the 2nd book, but he wrote it
anyway.  Then he swore on his grandfather's grave that he wouldn't
write the 3rd one.  I think he found somebody else's grave on which to
swear that he wouldn't write any more in the series, but the end of
the 3rd book and the 12th radio episode hint at more to come.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Sep 83 15:47:06 PDT
From: MAINE=ZEICHICK%G.CC@Berkeley
Subject: Hitch-Hiker's Guide to The Galaxy

FROM:  Alan L. Zeichick-<g.maine=zeichick@berkeley>
       130 Moosehead Blvd., Bangor, Maine  04401
       (207) 942-7512

     For those who are interested in HHGTTG, and have shortwave adio
receivers available, here's the list of when the program is to be
aired over the BBC World Service over the next month or so...

OCTOBER:

Wednesdays (5th, 12th, 19th, and 26th) - 0830 & 1430 hours GMT

Thursdays (6th, 13th, 20th, and 27th) - 1030 hours GMT.

     And for those who are at all interested in 'Science', there's a
BBC program on CERN - that big aub-atomic laboratory in Geneva - on
October 30th at 1430 GMT, repeated on the 31st at 1830 and on November
4th at 2230 hours GMT.

     If any one would like information about shortwave, the BBC, or
anything like that, please don't hesitate to let me know--by mail if
possible, by post if not.

73's,   Alan

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 19:43:56-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ec.ks9j @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Hitchiker Records

     In reference to another article about the Hitchiker records,
there most definitely IS the number 42 on one of the record covers.
On the Restuarant album, 42 appears on the rear end of the rubber
ducky on the front.

Question (easy):  Who's rubber ducky is it?

Larry W. Haak
ecn-ec:ks9j

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 19:47:08-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ec.ks9j @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who album

     I don't know if anyone else brought this up, but the BBC has put
out a record containing the themes and music (for several episodes)
from the Dr. Who series.  If anyone wants more info, please indicate
so.  I'll be happy to send any requested.  Thanx.

Larry W. Haak
ecn-ec:ks9j

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 1983  13:26 EDT (Sat)
From: Stephen R. Balzac <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Dr. Who Questions

     Those episodes of Dr. Who that I've seen tend to be pretty
consistent.  For example, in the case you mentioned, life was driven
from earth by solar flares, and some x thousands of years later, an
expedition was sent to see if the earth was now habitable again, and
ran into the Sontarans...

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 13:13:59-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Overdrawn at the Organ Bank

>From the No-Longer-SF file:

     Dr. Barry Jacobs, Washington (DC) surgeon, is trying to start a
nationwide program in which healthy people would be able to donate
kidneys in exchange for money.  His organization would act as a
clearinghouse for the donated kidneys and would distribute them to
hospitals performing transplants for a $5000 brokerage fee.  The money
collected would be used to help fund kidney research.  So far he has
received favorable responses from 30 of the 1000 hospitals he has
contacted in the last week.  He eventually plans to contact 7500
hospitals.

     Rep. Albert Gore (D-Tenn.) is fighting this proposal.  He claims
that it will reduce voluntary donations, citing the difference in
blood donations between the U.S., where there are paid blood banks,
and the U.K., where paid blood banks are illegal.  He also says that
allowing people to donate organs for money is dehumanizing and could
lead to the poor being used as spare parts for the rich.  He is also
concerned about the possibility of this being extended to Third World
nations providing organs for the developed nations.

     I got this information from a typical five-minute Today show
interview (Wednesday, Sep. 21, around 8:20 AM), and that's about all I
got out of it.  Have we reached a new Plateau?

  -- David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                       (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 83 18:01:54-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!cornell!houca!trc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: 2 for 1 organ bank sale

     Response to David D. Levine's note on organ banks: (net.sf)

     I see nothing wrong with the organ bank, provided that they do
not explicitly or implicitly deceive people into giving up their
kidneys.  If they take kidneys from people that cannot afford to buy a
kidney if their remaining kidney fails, they will have to be extremely
careful to make sure that those people understand what they are doing.

     In order to avoid problems with implicit deception, I would
suggest that Dr. Jacobs put a clause in his purchase contracts that
says that anyone that sells him a healthy kidney (leaving behind a
healthy kidney, of course), has the right to one kidney free of
charge, and to purchase a second one with no brokerage fee, if
necessary.  Since most people that donate kidneys will not later have
kidney failure, this should work out OK financially.  Thus, even if
someone didnt completely understand what they were doing, they wont
suffer just because they cant afford the normal price.  Also, people
would be more likely to donate if such a clause added, and because
they could be more certain that others would donate as well, they
could be even *more* certain that there would be a kidney available if
they needed one.

     As for Rep. Gore's objection to the poor being used for spare
parts for the rich, I think that the above suggestion removes most of
the real ethical difficulties from the kidney bank.  There seems to be
nothing inherently worse about the poor giving organs for use by the
rich than there does about the rich giving organs for the poor.  After
all, it is not the poor as a group that gives the kidney, just the
individual, who would be able to get a kidney (or two) back.  In fact,
with the "two for one" clause, it is even fairer, in that a poor
person can donate one kidney with assurance of getting two back,
should they be needed.  Meanwhile, the rich person would probably not
sell a kidney, and so will have to pay full price for them.  And of
course there is also the remuneration that the poor person will
receive in the first place, and that they will keep if they dont need
to buy the second kidney.

        Tom Craver
        houca!trc

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 15:03:55-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!cornell!!rabbit!jj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 2 for 1 organ bank sale

     Um, given the greed and selfishness of mankind (I except any
given individual) it seems to me that the next step after voluntary
organ banks is the use of condemned criminals for organs, then as we
run short, the use of minor criminals for organs, etc.

     I think the story of Gil the Arm (Sorry, Mr. Niven) could be
prophetic.

     I DO think that there should be organ banks, but they shouldn't
be financially oriented, and they should be carefully controlled.  I
can see organlegging starting tomorrow...!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Sep 83 2156-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #92
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 Sep 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 92

Today's Topics:
                             Film - Dune,
   Discussion - SF for Adolescents and Other Youngsters (2 msgs) &
       Hugo Awards (3 msgs) & SF and Literary Merit (5 msgs) &
                 Short Good Science Fiction (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 83 16:25:09 EDT
From: Saul Jaffe <Jaffe@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: DUNE

     For all of you who thought it was safe to pack up your DUNE books
and await release of the new movie, I have sad news for you.  To be
released soon from the publisher is "The Heretics of DUNE" and Herbert
is almost finished with the sixth book which is expected to be
released in 1984 around the same time as the movie.

     Word also has it that the next movie (read that: "sequel" ) is
*already* being planned.

------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1983 22:01 edt
From: Bergman.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: More youngly orientated science fiction

     The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet, and its sequels.  I
don't recall the author.

     Welcome to Mars.  I think maybe Arthur C. Clarke.  One of the
Names, at any rate.  About a teenager who somehow invents an effective
anti-gravity generator, and builds what is effectively a soap-box
spaceship.  He and his girlfriend go to Mars, crash just hard enough
to be unable to leave, build a spark-gap radio-beacon, and survive for
a year and a half or so.  Until rescued, that is.

     Danny Dunn and the (time machine, shrinking machine, invisible
submarine, etc., etc.)

  --mike bergman
    bergman.softarts@mit-multics

p.s.  Apparently I was incorrect in the title of the reprint of the
Wall of Serpents.  But I stand on its reprintedness.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 83 15:46:48-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!csu-cs!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Juvenile SF

     When I was in 4th or 5th grade I read as much of Tom Swift (and
Tom Swift Jr) as I could find. The science seemed good to me at that
age, and the plots all ran fast.

     I understand from talking to some who are more in the "know" than
I am that Victor Appleton (and VAppleton II) are pseudo's for an
ever-increasing number of SF writers. Does anyone know who
specifically may have written any of the TS or TSJ books?

                           Lyle McElhaney
                           ...{hao,brl-bmd}!denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 13:23:48-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!ariels @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: juvenile sf

     The Phantom Tollbooth was written by Norman Juster, with
illustrations by Jules Feiffer.  There was also an animated movie with
animation by Feiffer, and that stuck very close to the story.  It was
one of the few movies that didn't ruin the book for me.

     Has anyone mentioned the OZ books yet?  L. Frank Baum wrote a
whole bunch of them, then, when he died, J. J. O'Neill (the original
illustrator for the Oz books) and Ruth P. Thompson wrote a bunch more.

     Anything by Andre Norton makes good kid reading (for kids over
10, that is).

     The Last Unicorn makes for good reading for those youngsters with
an melancholy turn of mind.

     Steve Perry just wrote a book for younglings.  I remember him
complaining that after gearing it to his 12 and 15 yearolds, the
publisher made him cut all the sentences to six words each.

     Most of my childhood favorites have already been mentioned, so I
won't be redundant redundant.

Ariel Shattan
decvax!tektronix!tekecs!ariels

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 3:27:43-PDT (Wed)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ec.mccurry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Who won the Hugos?? - (nf)

     Does anyone have the complete list of Hugo winners from the
recent WorldCon?  I know that Isaac Asimov won Best Novel honors for
'Foundations Edge', but not who recieved the other awards.  Thanks.

                                ec.mccurry
                                purdue-ee

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 83 2:29:57-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!davies @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Who won the Hugos?? - (nf)

     1982 Hugo Awards (courtesy of the Champaign-Urbana Science
Fiction Association)

Novel:                      Foundations Edge, Isaac Asimov

Novella:                    "Souls", Joanna Russ

Novellette:                 "Firewatch", Connie Willis

Short Story:                "Melancholy Elephants", Spider Robinson

Non-Fiction:                "Isaac Asimov: The Foundations of Science
                            Fiction", James Gunn

Pro Artist:                 Michael Whelan

Pro Editor:                 Ed Ferman (Fantasy & Science Fiction)

Dramatic Presentation:      "Blade Runner"

Fanzine:                    Locus

Fan Artist:                 Alexis Gilliland

Fan Writer:                 Richard Geis

John W. Campbell Award:     Paul O. Williams

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 17:41:02-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dann @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Who won the Hugos?? - (nf)

     Gee.  This wasn't a very good year for SF, was it?

dann

------------------------------

Date: Tue 27 Sep 83 03:37:40-EDT
From: LINDSAY%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Pulitzers

     Well, maybe SF writers haven't been winning Pulitzers. But, how
many Pulitzer prize winning books are still for sale two years later?
Have a look; the few you find will be in the remaindered pile.

     Then look through the SF shelves in your local bookstore. There's
material from the 30's, sure, it's packaged with nostalgia puffery.
But most covers don't mention how old the story is. This makes it easy
to forget that many are 20 to 30 years old: some are 40.

     In "Carnal Knowledge", Jack Nicholson's (1950's) character shows
his culture by rhyming off the names of the great novels he has read
recently. The moment was one of Feiffer's little jokes: all of the
"great" books have utterly sunk without a trace. SF is different. We
guard our achievements, and build on them, and we are scholars of this
literature of ideas, to a level unimagined by the average consumer of
"the modern novel".

     When I read "The Shadow of the Torturer", I read it knowing the
themes and textures of "The Dying Earth" (late 1940's). And, not
surprisingly, Wolfe has given homage in interviews to that exact book.
We were both enriched by it, many years ago, and it bothers me not at
all that many people new to it will fail to notice the copyright date.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 83 19:27:30-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Merit Survey Results

     You asked the wrong question to start with.  What is the point in
looking for "the best" f&sf novels?  Fantasy is not science fiction is
not "literature".  They have different rules and rationales.  Why
should sf be judged by those of traditional "literature" alone?

     You quoted one response saying that sf was inferior to
"literature", yet you have taken that as the conclusion of your
survey.  Seems to me you found what you wanted to find.

--
John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,kpno,ut-ngp}!ut-sally!jsq, jsq@ut-sally.{ARPA,UUCP}

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 11:25:05-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!duke!phs!jtb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Merit Survey Results

     I am provoked into rising to the defense of the literary merit of
sci-fi.  I agree no work of science fiction is even in the same class
as Moby Dick or War and Peace but then what modern mainstream work is?
I would maintain that no "GREAT" novel has been written since the two
named above.  If we compare science fiction to mainstream works
written in the same period I would say that the best science fiction
(Tolkien, LeGuin) is supieror to mainstream writting and the average
level is equal to the average mainstream work.  Remember in evaluating
the average mainstream work we have to include the run of the mill
dectective and spy trash.

 Jose Torre-Bueno
 decvax!duke!phs!jtb

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 0:32:31-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Merit Survey Results - (nf)

     I echo Jerry Bakin's reaction.  I just haven't had the time to
filter through my memories of the probably thousands of stories I've
read.  And I'm not all that sure my opinion is equivalent to an
expert's opinion on what has literary merit -- who's going to define
"literary merit" for the purposes of this survey?  However, of the
books on the list which I have read, I don't have any objections.  And
if I thought there were a lot which didn't make it but should have,
that may just be a reflection of how well I like to read, or of how
tolerant I am of "less than best" SF.

     But keep up those surveys.  It's a good source of recommended
titles, and could save some of us some money!

Marion Hakanson         {hp-pcd,teklabs}!orstcs!hakanson (Usenet)
                        hakanson.oregon-state@rand-relay   or
                        hakanson@{oregon-state,orstcs} (CSnet)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 83 09:39:51 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF & Literary Merit

     Regarding Perry's query about why Pulitzer Prizes are awarded and
why no SF has won one:

     The plan for the Prizes in Letters includes the following section
regarding fiction:

"1. For distinguished fiction published in book form during the year
by an American author, preferably dealing with American life, five
hundred dollars ($500)."

Nominations in letters are made by submitting 3 copies of the work to
the Secretary of the Advisory Board.

     Since the Pulitzers concentrate on awards in journalism (8 prizes
versus 5 in letters), I submit that the Advisory Board is more
interested in rewarding writing about contemporary life (and
historical perspective) than writing about possible global concerns,
set in an imaginary future.  In other words, since SF doesn't deal
with "American life" per se, it is not of interest to the Board.  And
perhaps because of this, even an SF work of what the judges (whose
identities, at least for letters, are kept secret, by the way) might
consider to be "high literary quality" in its style could be denied a
prize because of its subject matter.

     Anyway, none of this at all affects my original statement, which
was that contemporary criticism of contemporary fiction (whatever the
genre) cannot predict "lasting" merit, simply because no one (not even
an SF writer) knows what will "last" into the future.  Recall that
American critics reviled Poe during his lifetime, while French critics
praised him.  And many a fine artist starved during his/her lifetime,
only to have modern critics call the work "art" by "an unjustly
neglected artist".

     Because of this, any list of "meritorious SF" will by its very
nature be a list of "my/our/the board's favorites" and not a predictor
of ultimate value.

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 12:36:48-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxi!mhuxj!mhuxl!pyuxn!rlr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: short SF query - (LeGuin + a new query)

     I believe that, in this very newsgroup, I once read that someone
or other felt that Left Hand of Darkness by U. K. LeGuin is best read
only after reading another of her books.  Will that person (or someone
else) please let me know which book that would be?

     Also, another query.  I was once told about a short story (?)
where someone is being chased throughout some desolate planet (??) and
is caught by his (human?) predators in the end.  The story actually
ends with the predatee (the one being chased) saying that they can't
do this to him, he is god.  To which the predators respond "That's
O.K.  We're mankind.  Come along."  Does anyone know of this story and
where it can be found?  Thanx in advance.

                                        Rich Rosen   pyuxn!rlr

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 83 15:44:08-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!cornell!!gatech!spaf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: short SF query - (LeGuin + a new query)

     The story which had god being chased and caught by Man was in the
"Dangerous Visions" collection, edited by Harlan Ellison.  I'd tell
you the name of the story and author, but the confounded rascal who
last borrowed my (fourth!) copy of the book failed to ever return it.

     For those of you who have not yet read "Dangerous Visions" or
"Again, Dangerous Visions" -- do so.  I'd be interested in knowing
which stories in these collections are people's favorites.  Also,
didn't Ellison claim to have enough material to do a "Last Dangerous
Visions"?  Whatever happened to that?

--
The padded cell of Gene Spafford
CSNet:  Spaf @ GATech

ARPA:   Spaf.GATech @ UDel-Relay

uucp:
...!{akgua, allegra, rlgvax, sb1, ut-ngp, ut-sally}!gatech!spaf

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 15:16:46-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!brucec @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: Short Stuff

     I'll add my vote for "Persistence of Vision" by John Varley, on
of the few stories to ever make my hair stand on end. (Don't worry,
that's a good sign).  Add "Gotta Sing, Gotta Dance" also by Varley to
the list, too.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Oct 83 2124-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #93
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 2 Oct 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 93

Today's Topics:
       Books - L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt (2 msgs) &
         Harlan Ellison & Philip J. Farmer & Norten Juster &
           Donalds Kingsbury (2 msgs) & Ursula K. LeGuin &
                        Jullian May (2 msgs) &
     Edson McCann and Frederik Pohl and Lester del Rey (2 msgs) &
      Patricia McKillip & Andre Norton (2 msgs) & Roger Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1983 18:43:46-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: enchanters

     In response to your message of Fri Sep 23 17:12:16 1983:

     Look, I said that WALL OF SERPENTS \was/ \not/ in THE COMPLEAT
ENCHANTER, and that's what I meant. If you don't believe me, you're
welcome to go to the MITSFS and look it up. If you find that there are
two different books under that title I'll be interested, but I doubt
you will. I generally don't put flat statements on the net without
solid evidence. (This one I remember not only because of the copyright
problem illustration but because I reread the SFBC edition during the
big storm last winter.)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 83 13:06:15-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: enchanters

     Well, there are about 30 articles in sf-lovers for me to read
yet, so I don't know if this point has already been cleared up;
however, the books in question happened to be sitting on my desk here
at work, so I couldn't resist...

     >The Wall of Serpents<, by L.Sprague deCamp and Fletcher Pratt,
is >not< included in >The Compleat Enchanter<. It was published
separately.  A fairly compleat publishing history of the works in
question follows:

     The Compleat Enchanter: Doubleday Book Club edition, published
1975, containing...Book I: The Roaring Trumpet: first published in the
May, 1940 issue of Street and Smith's "Unknown" magazine...
...Book II: The Mathematics of Magic: first published in "Unknown",
August 1940...Book III: The Castle of Iron: from "Unknown", April
1941...an afterword entitled "Fletcher and I", copyright 1975 by
deCamp.

     The Incomplete Enchanter: copyright 1941 by Henry Holt and
Company. This volume contained "The Roaring Trumpet" and "The
Mathematics of Magic".

     The Wall of Serpents: my edition was printed by Dell books, in
November 1979.  It contains the novellae "The Wall of Serpents", based
on the Finnish >Kalevala<, and "The Green Magician", based on Irish
mythology.  The book was first copyright in 1960, and the individual
novellae were copyright 1953 by Future Publications, and 1954 by
Galaxy Publishing Corp, the second obviously for Galaxy magazine (or
possibly Worlds of If).

     This is a very pleasant series of books to read, dealing with
fantasy in a logical, consistent and light-hearted way, very much
characteristic of the stories that appeared in "Unknown", 'way back
when.

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 5:50:42-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Last Dangerous Visions

     Last I knew, Harlan was still planning on finishing "Last
Dangerous Visions", and there are authors who have submitted stories
to it. On the other hand, when hearing these same authors speak of it,
they seem to imply that it will be published the day after hell
freezes over. When (if?) it comes out, it will probably be an
interesting volume, for these "new" stories will actually reflect the
earlier work of some of the authors.

                              eric
                              ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 83 22:08:05-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!watmath!!wateng!padpowell @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Green Odyssey,  by Philip J. Farmer

     This is back in print.  One of the few "comic" s-f books around.

     Ah, yes.  Very good book, is "Stargate", by Stephen Robinett If
you have worked on an BIG, nasty, high tech project, you will see
little viginettes that are really guite funny.  "Engineering's
engineering.  You'll get the hang of it.  You're a bright boy. ...  I
kind of paved the way...  They think the engineering Albert Einstien
is coming."  "Gee thanks!"  "Think nothing of it."  Bernie, that
master of understatement.

     The book was never a great seller, I wonder why...

Patrick Powell

------------------------------

Date: Sat 24 Sep 83 20:39:32-CDT
From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: "Phantom Tollbooth"

     For any following the subject of the "Phantom Tollbooth" it was
written by Norten Juster.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 83 13:02:42-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!@ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: A Rave for Courtship Rite

     I read Courtship Rite when it was printed up in Analog Magazine a
year or so ago. I was interested in the was the sciences developed,
they are far advanced in biology but not so much in physics, but the
ending left me unfulfilled. Good try but it missed the mark somehow.

Sincerely;
Greg Hennessy
..ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!student

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 18:24:04-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!utcsstat!bjf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Donald Kingsbury

     I also highly recommend "Courtship Rite". After a writing hiatus
of 20 years as far as science fiction is concerned Donald Kingsbury
has written one good story after another. If you have not read his
earlier stories in Analog I recommend them also. "Shipwright" is set
in the same universe as "Courtship Rite". "To Bring In The Steel" and
"The Moon Goddess and the Son" are set in the near future or at least
what I wish the near future would be like. These all appeared within
the last five years but I can't remember exact dates. Kingsbury is
said to be working on a novel version of "The Moon Goddess and the
Son" at present. But by all means read "Courtship Rite" now. As a
picture of a society which most people on Earth would view as
abhorrent it is an interesting thought-provoking story. Reading how
the Getans view our society is worth the price of the book alone.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 83 9:13:27-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Ursula K. LeGuin

     I would agree that LeGuin's "The Left Hand of Darkness" is her
best book.  However, "The Dispossessed" (another Hainish novel) is
equally well know.  Both books won both the Hugo and Nebula awards for
their years.  This was back in the days when it was uncommon for the
same novel to win both.

                Cliff Shaffer
                {seismo,mcnc,we13}!rlgvax!cvl!cas

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 83 16:59:08-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxn!wwb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Help finding "The Adversary" by Jullian May

     I need help finding a copy of "The Adversary" by Jullian May.  It
is the fourth book in a series consisting of "The Multicolored Land",
"The Golden Torc", and "The Nonborn King".

                                                Thanks,
                                                Walt Barnes
                                                ...!ihuxn!wwb

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 23:24:01-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Help finding 'The Adversary'

"I need help finding a copy of "The Adversary" by Jullian May."

     I think your only help is time. To the best of my knowledge it
hasn't come out yet. I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anything about it
in Locus, either. On the other hand, the third volume took me by
surprise at a bookstore, so I could be wrong. If anybody knows the
publication date (real or expected) I'd like to know, too. I like the
series a lot.

scott preece
pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 83 9:52:01-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!iwsl1!ttb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Help!! - lost sf classic

     Can anyone help me find an "oldie but goodie"? It was a novel
named "Preferred Risk", I believe the author was J. T. McCann. I lost
my copy (loaned it to a "friend") years ago and have been unable to
find a replacement, it is long since out-of-print. Any info will be
appreciated, as it was one of very few sf novels I gave an "A" rating
to.

                          Tom
                          ..ihnp4!iwsl1!ttb

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 83 10:51:24-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!presby!burdvax!psuvax!russell @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Help!! - lost sf classic - (nf)

     I have in my collection two copies of this novel: Preferred Risk

     by Edson McCann
     Dell Publishing, March 1962
     with copyrights of
     1955, Galaxy Publishing
     1955, Simon & Schuster

     By Frederik Pohl & Lester del Rey
     writing as Edson McCann
     Ballantine (A DelRey Book), January 1980

     with the same copyrights plus the story (from two viewpoints) of
how the novel came to be written (very funny).

     It might still be in print (check "Books in Print" at any major
bookstore).  You might be able to pick it up at a used bookstore.
That is where I got my first paperback edition of it.

--

Bill Russell            UUCP:   ...!floyd!cmcl2!russell
(212) 460-7292          ARPA:   Russell@NYU

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 16:20:29-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!iwsl1!ttb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Help!! - lost sf classic (a thank you)

     To Bill Russell, and all you net.sf-lovers:

     I can't thank you enough for your info on "Preferred Risk".  I
was not aware it had been re-released, or that the author was really
Frederick Pohl & Lester del Rey. Armed with this info I went to a
local book store and found not only a listing in "Books in Print", but
a copy of the new release on their shelves. Thanks to you I have
filled a 20 year-old gap in my treasured sf collection.

                            Tom Butler

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 83 11:21:39-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!cornell!randy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Patricia McKillip

     I am a fan of Patricia McKillip, author of the Hed trilogy and
"The Forgotten Beasts of Eld."  Does anyone know of anything else she
has written (novels or otherwise)?  Is she still active?  I'd
appreciate any information you can give me.

     Please respond by mail as I am not on net.sf-lovers.  Thanks in
advance.
                        - Randy
--
Randy Trigg
...!seismo!umcp-cs!randy (Usenet)
randy.umcp-cs@udel-relay (Arpanet)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 9:11:10-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!duke!phs!jtb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Andre Norton

     I vividly remember reading THE STARS ARE OURS by Andre Norton.
If you are OD on witch worldly stuff rest assured this is quite unlike
them.  In a post holocast world a moral majority type group has taken
over and is prescuting all remaning scientists.  A teenager and his
little sister flee the destruction of their grandfathers lab to try to
bring the secret of some great discovery (suspended anamation?) to the
hidden headquarters of the scientific underground where a spaceship is
being prepared for an escape to another world.  The fact that I
remember the plot so well when it has been 20 years since I last read
it indicates the impression it made on me.  BTW someone on the net
mentioned a sequel reciently could someone re-post that title?

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 21:37:31-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Sequel to Norton's "The Stars Are Ours"

     The sequel's name was "Star Born". It concerned One of the
offspring of the refugees and his friend, a native of Astra. Also
involved were a Scouting party from the *new improved* Earth, and an
ancient race of nasties who used to rule Astra.

     The book was primo early Norton and -- come to think of it --
among my earliest sf readings after all those Heinlein juvies.

     Twas published by Ace way back then. Maybe still around? Good
hunting anyway!

                        Dr Memory
                        ...!{decvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 1983  16:14 EDT (Sun)
From: Stephen R. Balzac <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Roger Zelazny

     I recently heard a rumor that Zelazny has signed a contract to
write 3 more Amber books.  Anyone know anything about it?  Supposedly
it appeared in Locus recently.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Oct 83 2137-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #94
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 2 Oct 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 94

Today's Topics:
     Discussion - Science Fiction for Kids of All Ages (8 msgs) &
                Classic Science Fiction and Fantasy &
             Science Fiction and Literary Merit (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 83 23:23:43-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF for Kids - (nf)

     I'm not sure I like to break out "kids'" SF from the rest. The
first SF I read (about sixth grade) was all adult stuff: the Kuttner
Gallagher stories (I think the collected title was Robots Have No
Tales, but I couldn't swear to it), the Fadiman math collections
(fantasia Mathematica, et al; "A Subway Named Moebius" is one of my
favorite shorts), and Starship Troopers. Needless to say, reading them
now I get a host of connotations that went right past me at the time,
but I loved them at the level I read them, too.

     I'd say it's most important to pick things that will hit the
areas where the kid's imagination has already been sensitized. I was
into math at the time, hence the math-related stories. Try a few
different things and see what works. Most kids are likely to be
happiest with a fair amount of action, but even that isn't necessarily
required.  I would say, though, that you shouldn't stick to juvenile
titles.  Most of them are just not as good, and you want kids to be
reading the best written material they can handle (the Heinlein
juveniles and some others are clearly exceptions to this rule, books
that grownups read despite the juvenile label).

     [Actually, the books I was most hooked on were the Swallows and
Amazons series by Arthur Ransome, but they aren't SF by any possible
stretch of the imagination...]

     The principal rule, though, is get them reading SOMETHING. Kids
who read and collect comic books are still likely to turn into readers
of regular books later, and if anything correlates with success it's a
love of reading.

scott preece
pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 13:07:23-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!security!ksf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: sf for juvies

     How about Doc. E.E. Smith's Lensmen series ?

                          Keith Fung
                          Mitre
                          Bedford Mass.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 14:13:05-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Children's SF&F

     The author of "The Phantom Tollbooth" is Norton Juster and the
illustrations are indeed done by Jules Feiffer.  Marvelous book for
kids of all ages; good puns, etc.

Jeff Myers

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 83 10:48:01 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Juvenile SF

     While I agree in spirit with the person who recommended '60s
"Legion of Super-Heroes" comics as suitable for young readers, I have
two gripes:

     1) you can do better than that.  Today's LSH has more real SF
than Ed Hamilton dared put in those old stories.  Or try almost
anything in comics written by Gardner Fox or John Broome (usually '60s
Flash, Green Lantern (my personal choice), Justice League, Adam
Strange (second choice), Atom, Hawkman).

     2) anyone intending to buy those '60s comics for a youngster had
better be prepared to pay a hefty piece of change.

     Besides, the money would better be spent on anthologies of
Clarke's short stories.

     Mushroom Planet books were written by Eleanor(?) Cameron.  She
also did something called "The Terrible Churnadryne."  Despite the
fact that the book has the shadow of a plesiosaur on the cover, don't
bother.

     I learned my ABCs (Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke) at an early age.
While these gents can't compete with some of today's SF, their
'40s-'50s work is great.

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 22:32:40-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF for Adolescents - (nf)

     I'm amazed that no one else has nominated Heinlein's juveniles.
They're what started me on SF, and I know a lot of other people who
also started with Heinlein.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1983  9:36:31 EDT (Friday)
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: JuveLit

     More contributions to the juvenalia:

The Dr. Doolittle series, by Hugh Lofting

     Dr. John Doolittle learns to talk with the animal kingdom and has
very amusing, odd adventures.  Wonderful books, all.

Tom Swift

     I know these have been mentioned.  But are you aware there is a
TS 3 series...which is significantly better written than the previous
two series, full of quantum space drives, robots, lasers, and very
versimilitudinous settings.  Still targeted at a young-teen reader in
a clear way (characters may be contemporary, but still
easy-identification, no-growth cut-outs).  I plan to read them,
anyway.

OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET, C.S.Lewis

     The first of a trilogy, although the other two (PERELANDA and THE
HIDEOUS STRENGTH) are a bit much for the younger reader.

ALICE IN WONDERLAND and THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS, Lewis Carroll

     Naturally -- but I'd hate to have these forgotten.  There are
people who have never read this, believe it or not.

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 83 17:01:45-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF for Kids

     And of course, how could we forget Matthew Looney?  There were at
least three Matthew Looney books, and possibly four, of which I
remember:

        Matthew Looney's Voyage to the Earth
        Matthew Looney Conquers the Earth
        Matthew Looney and the Space Pirates

quite fondly.  I have forgotten the author, but I'll never forget the
illustrations by Gahan Wilson (!).  The books chronicle the career of
Matthew Looney, resident of Crater Clavius on the Moon, from his first
space voyage (as cabin boy on the first Lunar ship to visit the Earth)
to his promotion to Admiral and explorations of the rest of the
universe.  The science was moderately accurate and the humor was
fantastic.  Not just for kids.

     Gahan Wilson and this author also collaborated on a book about a
boy who accidentally invents a zero-friction grease based on the
mystrious "Ingredient Zeta".  I have forgotten nearly everything about
this one.

      Finally, I must bring up the first SF book I remember having
read, which was "The Runaway Robot" by Lester Del Rey.  It's probably
too dated for today's readers, though...

  -- David D. Levine

(...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
(...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 83 13:59:16-PDT (Thu)
From: teklabs!jimp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Author Needed

"From: maggie2@iwsl1.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers
Subject: Author Needed
Organization: BTL Naperville, Il.

"I have been trying for a long time to remember the titles or author
of some books I read when quite young.  All I could remember was that
it had to do with a planet that depended on sulphur and the name Tycho
(I could only think of Brahe and I knew that wasn't it).  Someone
mentioned the Tycho Bass series recently in this newsgroup - and that
rang a bell!  Does anyone know the titles or author of these books??

                                 Marguerite Czajka
                                 ihnp4!iwsl1!maggie2"

     The books you refer to are the "Mushroom Planet" Series, by
Eleanor Cameron.  The first book is entitled "The Wonderful Flight to
the Mushroom Planet", and the second is entitled "The Stowaway to the
Mushroom Planet".  There are other books, but I don't know the titles.

     Tycho Bass is the mysterious professor/inventor who advertises in
the paper for a spaceship hull to which he later adds a propulsion
unit.  The respondents to this ad are our protagonists, Chuck and
David.

     This is a wonderful series, and I hope to acquire copies of each
of the books someday.

                -- Jim Prouty

uucp:           {ucbvax,decvax,pur-ee,ihnss,chico}!teklabs!jimp
CSnet:          jimp@tek
ARPAnet:        jimp.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 29-Sep-83 10:14:06-EDT
From: arpauser@LL.ARPA
Subject: CLASSIC F&SF

     Some of the works that I feel are considered to be both "classic"
and either fantasy or science fiction are :

We:                            Yvgeny Zamyatin

1984:                          George Orwell

Fahrenheit 451:                Ray Bradbury

Brave New World:               Aldous Huxley

The Time Machine:              H.G. Wells

Slaughterhouse 5:              Kurt Vonnegut

A Clockwork Orange:            Anthony Burgess

Waters of the Wondrous Isles:  William Morris

A Connecticut Yankee in
King Arthur's Court:           Mark Twain

     In addition, I would also consider the following works to be
fantasy:

The Tempest,
A Midsummer Night's Dream :    William Shakespeare

Faust :                        Goethe

     Food for thought, anyway.

                               Joe Baldassini
                               (PL95 @ LL.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 83 02:17:01 EDT
From: SOMMERS@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: re: re: merit survey

     I am curious as to why people are picking out Moby Dick and War
and Peace as books of "lasting literary merit".  If you wish to be
chauvanistic about the authors -- why not "Bartleby the Scrivener"
and Anna Karenina?  I find that Moby Dick and W&P are often pointed
out as "classics", but no one seems to have ever been able to finish
them.  Being difficult to read, pretentious and old does not mean a
book has lasting literary merit -- unless you are working on a Phd in
English Lit.

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 10:36:01-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!aplvax!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Merit Survey Results and a new topic

     As opposed to the "run of the mill" sf trash? I read far more sf
than mystery, but just as there is good sf, there is good mystery, and
in particular, just as there is bad mystery, there is bad sf.

     Which brings up the next step. net.movies has been talking about
"bad" films, what do you consider to be some of the worst sf written?
You know, the stuff written by authors that know nothing about the
field but just want to cash in (or maybe the stuff written by authors
who do know about the field, but just want to cash in). Certainly the
Gor series has gotten a lot of time on the net, but what about various
Conan rip-offs, bad space opera (Battlefield Earth?), etc.

                                  eric
                                  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 21:14:29-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF & Literary Merit

     Why is it that no writer of science fiction of fantasy has ever
been awarded a Pulitzer prize?  Perhaps because none has ever been
considered?

John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq, jsq@ut-sally.{ARPA,UUCP}

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 21:23:33-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Merit Survey Results - (nf)

     If you really want a good source of recommended titles, you might
subscribe to Locus (who do both an annual poll and a suggested reading
list), try Howard DeVore's list of Hugo, Nebula, World Fantasy and
other award winners, get the "Reader's Guide to SF" (assuming it's
still in print), buy the SF Encyclopedia, find the various Science
Writers of America Hugo and Nebula winners volumes, or go to a con and
speak to people there.  Any of these are more reliable than an
sf-lovers poll.

John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq, jsq@ut-sally.{ARPA,UUCP}

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1983  17:57 EDT (Fri)
From: Arturo Perez@MIT-EECS <UC.ART@MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Pulitzers and Old stories

     I agree entirely with LINDSAY%TARTAN at CMU-CS-C.ARPA when he
says that most books that are not of the Science Fiction genre are
very rapidly "disgarded."  Many times have I read a book that I
thought was very modern or contemporary only to find that it was
written in the 40's or 50's.  Most "normal" fiction can't be
appreciated in the same way because they get dated and out-of-date so
very fast.  In some cases you have to know an incredible amount of
history just to be able to understand what the author is trying to
say.  Flame Off!

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 83 16:01:02 PDT (Friday)
From: LFeinberg.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Pulitzer Pize and S.F.

     According to a widespread rumor, the Pulitzer Prize selection
committee awarded the prize to Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" (perhaps
the only work of S.F. ever to be seriously considered).  The board of
directors which administers the Pulitzer awards, however, vetoed the
selection on grounds of incomprahensabliliy and obscenity (neither
charge being valid).  This anectode demonstrates the traditionalist
bias of the Pulitzer awards.

Lawrence <LFeinberg.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 83 19:59:39-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: sri-arpa.11908: Merit Survey Results

"I am provoked into rising to the defense of the literary merit of
sci-fi."

     How can anybody who calls it by that despicable name rise in
defense of it?

John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq, jsq@ut-sally.{ARPA,UUCP}

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 83 12:39:17-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF & Literary Merit

     Why is it that no SF or F author has won a Pulitzer?  Why is it
that so few PBS shows win awards? Just goes to show that awards are
not always based solely on merit.

                               eric
                               ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Oct 83 2143-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #95
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 2 Oct 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 95

Today's Topics:
                  Discussion - Good Short SF and F,
                    Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs),
                  Film - A Boy and His Dog (3 msgs),
                      News - Organ Banks Today?,
         Various Subjects - Mixed Messages On Too Many Things
                        To Be Listed! (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 17:23:28-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!pyuxn!rlr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: short SF query - (LeGuin + a new query)

     Thanx to all who responded to my request for the name of the
story where man chases (and captures) god.  "Evensong" from the
"Dangerous Vision" collection.  Am I to understand that "A Boy and His
Dog" is also in this collection??

     The only response to my query about which book one should read
before attempting Left Hand of Darkness came from Craig Partridge, who
was not the poster of the original note regarding this topic, but
still provided some useful info.  Thank you, Craig.

                              Rich Rosen    pyuxn!rlr

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1983  19:15 EDT
From: DCB.TECH@MIT-OZ

     I remember reading a short story a while back about an invasion
of earth which didn't go well.  The aliens seemed pretty fey and
lackless, and the earthmen kept doing things like turning passive
technology like laser sighters (a surveyor's tool) into weapons.  The
earthmen's guerilla forces kept destroying the aliens' tanks.  The
aliens kept complaining about their own inability to build good roads
as quick as the earthlings could.  It sort of ended, I think, with the
aliens deciding to send down roman Gods look-alikes to cow earth into
submission?

     Anybody know the story and/or author?  Reply to me directly, as
I'm not on the list.

Thanks much,
      -Rich$alz

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 14:55:42-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: who is the doctor - a complete answer

Who is the Doctor

(Condensed from an article in Marvel comics by Mary Jo Duffy)

     For the past two years or so, American audiences have delighted
to the antics and adventures of a Time Lord, a cosmic wanderer who
travels through time and space.  Armed with his sonic screwdriver, an
I.Q. well above the genius level, and an endless supply of jelly
babies and tinkered together oddments, he manages to dispatch an
endless stream of deadly and fantastical foes with absent-minded
efficiency.  He is The Doctor.

     Doctor Who has been a top-rated science fiction and fantasy show
in Great Britain since its debut in 1963.  Although it was originally
conceived as a program for children, and is still produced with the
clarity and imagination guaranteed to attract the interest of younger
viewers, the wit, enthusiasm, and overall high quality of the programs
have consistently drawn a large number of older viewers as well.
Recently it was estimated that as many as 60% of the Doctor's audience
are adults.

     When the Doctor first appeared, very little was known about him
except that he lived and voyaged in the TARDIS, a cabinet that can
journey across time and space. The name TARDIS is an acronym for Time
and Relative Dimensions in Space.  ...  TARDISes are supposed to be
chameleonlike, changing appearance to fit into any surroundings.  This
one, however, got stuck in the first form it adopted.  While it fits
in fine with a 20th century London setting, it tends to look a little
strange resting on alien soil or whirling through the vastness of
space.

...

     What we do know about the Doctor is as follows: He is a Time Lord
... a member of the ruling class of the planet Galifrey, who ran
off in a stolen, slightly  out-of-whack  TARDIS  because  he  was
bored  stiff on his peaceful, civilized, and highly advanced home
planet.  ... the ability to physically metamorphose  into  a  new
body  when  in  danger of death from fatigue, illness, or injury,
enable Time Lords to live indefinitely, barring accidents or foul
play.  At present, the Doctor is roughly 750 years old.

     The doctor's ability to transform himself, coupled with the
public's insatiable demand for more of their hero's adventures despite
the passage of time and the fact that actors do, eventually, tire of
even the most interesting roles and want to move on, have led to four
different incarnations for the Doctor.

...

     (While the last of the Jon Pertwee episodes have been shown in
some states, it's only the first two seasons of the Tom Baker episodes
that most Americans have seen.)

     In his latest incarnation, the Doctor is rather a synthesis of
all his previous selves.  He's still brilliant, inquiring, altruistic,
and eccentric, but he's sometimes a bit absent-minded as well. ...

----------

     There's much more of this very interesting article which gives
information about all of the Doctor's incarnations as well as the main
story lines of how he changed from one to another and how he came to
be where he is at present.  I would gladly send you a copy of this
article if you would send a stamped self addressed envelope to:

Robert Perlberg
Suite 2500
150 East 58th Street
New York, NY 10155

Robert Perlberg
Resource Dynamics Inc.
New York
philabs!rdin!perl

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 83 8:56:41-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The 6th Doctor Who

     Robert Perlberg quotes from a Marvel article that sounds mostly
correct but somewhat dated (I don't know the specific article).
Time-Life began marketing Doctor Who in the U.S. in 1978 with the
first four Tom Baker seasons, so its been here about 5 years.  I heard
somewhere that some areas showed Pertwee episodes around 1973.  Most
stations that show it now have all seven seasons with Tom Baker but
some have Pertwee episodes and the two most recent seasons with Peter
Davison.

     Time Lords do live for a long time but regeneration is not
unlimited.  Barring criminal methods used by the Master, a Time Lord
can only regenerate naturally 12 times.  Toward the end of the
upcoming 21st season the Doctor will regenerate for the 5th time and
it sounds like the Daleks will have something to do with it.  Well,
they let the Master win a round in Logopolis and the Cybermen killed a
companion in Earthshock, so I suppose it's only fair.

     To answer Andrew Garrett's question on "who" has played the
Doctor, here are the past, present, and future names (dates are when
the episodes were/will be shown in England):

        1. William Hartnell     (11/63 - 10/66)
        2. Patrick Troughton    (11/66 - 6/69)
        3. Jon Pertwee          (1/70  - 6/74)
        4. Tom Baker            (12/74 - 81)
        5. Peter Davison        (82    - 3/84)
        6. Colin Baker          (3/84  - ? )

     The 6th Doctor will have an American companion, Peri Brown,
played by actress Nicola Bryant.

     Can anyone out there tell us anything about Colin Baker?
Apparently he played a villain in a Doctor Who episode at some time
but I don't know which one.  This information comes from a front page
story in the British Daily Express on Aug. 20, reprinted in Morbius,
the Mensa Doctor Who newsletter.

                        Mary Anne Espenshade
                        ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 83 10:37:40 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog

     Yes, it is sexist, but it is not sexist because that's the way
Ellison is.  It's sexist because Ellison was playing 2 sexist themes
against each other:

     1) the "unique" or "special" relationship many think exists
between a boy and his pet, especially a dog, as if girls don't have
equally special relationships with their pets, or *any* relationship
between *anyone* and a pet is not special, i.e., unique.  E.g., films
like Disney's "Old Yeller", where the boy shoots his dying dog
(euthanasia, not cruelty) rather than letting anyone else do it.  I
suppose this was meant to "make a man" out of him.  I thought it was
sick.

     2) the "lifestyle" (gee, I hate that term) of '60s Middle
America.

the cute byline of Chris Jarocha-Ernst

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1983  9:36:31 EDT (Friday)
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: BOY & DOG

     Let me be one of the first (but I'm sure not the last) to shed a
little light on A BOY AND HIS DOG.  Please be advised that I'm working
from memory here; people with more accurate information at hand are
welcome to correct me...

     The movie was based on a novella written by Harlan Ellison.  It's
in one or more of his collections. Harlan has used this story as an
example in some of his essays on writing.  (Again, specific references
fail me.)

     The movie was made 'based on' the story.  I know I saw it by
1976.

     Please do not, repeat not, assail the author of the 'source'
written work for anything you find in the movie adaptation --
certainly not before reading the actual story!  The inappropriateness
of this presumption leaves me flameless.  Examples fail me at the
moment...but you should have enough sense of story vs. movie (or tv)
to know the fallacy involved.

     [Dig up Harlan's opinions and tales of the movie and tv industry
and his hate/hate relationship for more insight...and also Ben Bova's
THE STARCROSSED, a fictionalized treatment of Bova/Ellison's passing
fling with a tv series.  (Try to find Harlan's commentaries, also.
References, somebody?)]

     Harlan has written at least one more story with the same
characters, entitled BLOOD'S A ROVER.  I think they may all get glued
into a novel eventually.

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

Date: 30 September 1983 1037-pdt
From: Jerry Bakin    <Bakin @ HI-MULTICS>
Subject: Psst.   Great real estate on the Islands of Langerhans.

     The news show I saw that talked about Dr. Barry Jacobs and his
Organ Bank also mentioned that Dr. Jacobs had previously run afoul in
some sort of medical fraud.  I've forgotten the specifics, but the
aroma around the Doctor was not just ether or Lysol.

     I want to know when the Doctor starts Autotellers for 24 hour
deposits/withdrawals, and also if I can accrue interest on my account.

Jerry Bakin <Bakin @ HI-Multics>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1983 12:16:06 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.)
Subject: Miscellaneous Comments on Recent Issues

     1) Back in issue 85, someone was wondering what "FTA" stood for.
It's a piece of military slang with the simple meaning of "F**K the
Army".

     2) On alternate universes having a limited number of choices
resulting in overlaps.  Back at Expo '67 (the 1967 World's Fair in
Montreal), the Czech pavilion had a very intriguing movie show.  The
film took about 45 minutes, and about every ten minutes it would stop
and the audience would vote, via buttons on the arms of their seats,
as to which choice a protagonist would take.  It was set up in such a
way that there were actually only three endings, because certain reels
led to overlaps.

     3) Kid's Fiction: The author of The Phantom Tollbooth, and also
the noted book/animated feature The Dot and the Line, is Norton
Juster.  The movie version of TPT, by the way, is an abomination,
despite excellent animation by Chuck Jones.

     Someone suggested Edward Eager as good children's fantasy.  I
agree, but most of his stuff is out of print in both hardback and
paperback.  If anyone knows of a good source, I'd like to know, since
I'm still missing a few in my own collection.

     The author of the Tycho Bass ("Mushroom Planet" series) books was
Eleanor Estes Cameron, who also wrote The Shy Stegosaurus of Cricket
Creek.

     4) Hiero's Journey: It has, indeed, been re-published, but for a
very specific reason: the sequel, Hiero's Quest, is finally out in
hardback.  Lanier's best book, The Exploits of Brigadier Ffellowes,
is, alas, out of print, but many of the stories are to be found in old
issues of F&SF.

Dave Axler
(Axler@Upenn-1100@Upenn@Udel-relay)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 83 16:13:32-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!gatech!roy @ Ucb-Vax

     I have several (unrelated) questions that I have been curious
about for the last few months.  So without further ado, Here they are:

     1) I noticed a dedication to P. K. Dick during Blade Runner.  How
did he die?  It seems to me that he wasn't that old.

     2) Does anyone have a list of what SF writers are married to SF
writers?  It would be interesting if it was divided up into writers
whose spouses are writers in their own right, and writers who have
written with (previously unpublished) spouses.

     3) MANY years ago I read a SF book from the library that I
enjoyed immensely.  The plot involved multiple universes/ time lines,
but I don't remember anything about it.  The only remembrance of the
book that I have is the phrase: "The Infinite Worlds of Maybe", but
that might be only what it said in the blurb on the back of the book,
not the title.  Any suggestions will be appreciated.

"Roy J. Mongiovi"

USA:  School of ICS, Georgia Institute of Technology.
      Atlanta, GA 30332

CSNet:  Roy@GaTech
ARPA:   Roy.GaTech@UDel-Relay
uucp:  ...!{sb1,allegra,ut-ngp}!gatech!roy
       ...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!roy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Oct 83 2138-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #96
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 6 Oct 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 96

Today's Topics:

                Administrivia - Exciting New Update!,
    Books - Isaac Asimov & David Brin (2 msgs) & Lester Del Rey &
          Harlan Ellison (4 msgs) & Douglas Adams (2 msgs) &
   Michael Jahn (?) & Donald Kingsbury & "A Subway Named Mobius" &
                      John Myers Myers (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 83 21:35:56 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Administrivia (Big Electric Cat)

Hi All:

     According to one of our system's programmers, due to some
problems that have cropped up lately, some of you may be missing the
most recent issues (93, 94, 95).  If so, please send me mail, and I'll
be glad to re-send them to you...

     In answer to the eternal question: "Why has SFL been so sporadic
as of late?"--well, since moving, I lost my ability to work at home
from a dial-up.  This means that I must travel to the computer center
in order to log on.  However, since the end of the summer, and the
start of classes, it has been hard to get at a terminal, let alone (at
times) log on!

     So, until I can beg/borrow/steal/buy a terminal/personal computer
and a modem, output of SFL will be sporadic at best.  When I do get
on, I will send out as many issues in one shot as possible (i.e., a
maximum of three)...please be patient, though...

Take care,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(SEVENTEEN DAYS LEFT!!!!!!)

------------------------------

Subject: Story about invasion & fake Roman gods
From: Alan L. Zeichick-<g.maine=zeichick@berkeley>
Date: October 5, 1983

Rich,

     The only story I know of that at all matches your description is
by Isaac Asimov (of course), in his anthology 'The Early Asimov, Book
One'.  The story is 'Homo Sol', written back in 1940, and is the first
of his two Tan Porus stories.  (The second is also in that anthology.)

     Synopsis: the Galactic Congress learns that Earthlings have
discovered the 'secret' of interstellar travel, and thus are eligible
to membership in galactic society.  Envoys are sent out, but it
appears that those strange humans are very clever, and not very
interested in joining the club--and keep turning domestic gadgets into
nasty little weapons systems.  However, Tan Porus, Master
Psychologist, saves the day.  And yes, fake gods & goddesses come into
the picture.

Enjoy.  -Alan-

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 1983 12:10:13-PDT
From: engvax!KVC at cit-vax
Subject: Startide Rising and Sundiver

Well,

     Following the rave reviews in SF-LOVERS, I went out and bought
both books yesterday.  The question I have is which should I read
first?  Or does it matter?  Any suggestions?

                Thanks,
                        /Kevin
                                engvax!kvc at CIT-VAX

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 83 7:02:39-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Previous works by David Brin - (nf)

     If you look in the back of "Startide Rising", in the list of
books you can buy, you will find the title "The Tides of Kithrup", and
you will notice it has the same magic numbers as Startide. Seems the
original title for Startide was "The Tides of Kithrup".

                        Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Oct 83 15:55:02 EDT
From: Eric Albert <ealbert@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: The Infinite Worlds of Maybe

     As far as I remember, "The Infinite Worlds of Maybe" is by Lester
del Rey.

-- Eric Albert (ealbert @ bbn-unix)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1983 17:05:25-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: last dangerous visions

     Has been waiting for a LONG time. Harlan was talking about a
fairly complete set of contents 9 years ago (during a staged slanging
match with Asimov at Discon II). Various words have it that the total
wordage is in the million-plus range, including at least two complete
novels and a number of discovered stories from deceased authors (Tony
Lewis, who is preparing a Cordwainer Smith concordance, has confirmed
that there is a CS story in LDV but hasn't been able to get a look at
the manuscript; there's also a full-length novel by John Christopher,
I think). Harlan doesn't even want to talk about it any more, but (as
usual) rather than wait for the question the last time he was at MIT
he said something about Real Soon Now (or maybe sooner). It was hoped
that with Houghton-Mifflin publishing his work they'd be interested in
prying it out (they certainly aren't scared of larger books, witness
THE MANY-COLORED LAND), but it's been 3+ years. . . .

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1983 1439-EDT
From: mdc.janice@mit-oz
Subject: "A Boy and His Dog" and "Dangerous Visions"

     I thought the novella of "A Boy and His Dog" was far superior to
the movie and actually made some social statements, which the film
failed to do.  It can be found in Dangerous Visions and in one of the
Hugo Winners anthologies.

     As to The Last Dangerous Visions--it's been promised for years.
My sources say it's getting near to completion, don't ask when,
though.  It should be 3 or 4 volumes.

                        Janice

------------------------------

Date: Mon 3 Oct 83 19:22:36-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE@MIT-OZ
Subject: Harlan Ellison and "The Starlost"

     THE STARCROSSED is, indeed, a very funny adaptation of Ellison's
experiencese making "The Starlost."  For the actual events (from
Ellison's point of view, of course), read an essay in his last
anthology STALKING THE NIGHTMARE, titled, "Toto, Somehow I Don't Think
We're In Kansas Anymore."  (That's an approximation.)  This appeared,
in a shorter form, in an anthology called FASTER THAN LIGHT (one of
the editors was Jack Dann--I'm not sure of the other) which also
contains his original pilot script for the series.  This original
script has been novelized by Edward Bryant as PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES.

     To close my flame, let me say that I heartily agree that no one
should ever judge a story on the basis of the filmed adaptation of it.
The story "A Boy and his Dog" contained some brilliant satire on
Middle America-- something the movie was sorely lacking.

                                Janice

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 83 12:43:27-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!ariels @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Info on "Dangerous Visions"

     And what about "The Last Dangerous Visions"? If you can find
Patchin Review number 3 (I think, maybe number 2), read the article
about how all the contributers to LDV are dying off.  It seems that at
least 4 of the contributors are dead, some are sick, and one hasn't
been heard from for months (she's just disappeared!).  The author of
the article makes a case for Harlan Ellison waiting for them all to
kick off before publishing LDV.  Interesting.  Also, in the vein of
Patchin Review, tongue in cheek.  However, that article caused the
Dangerous Visions Bookstore in LA (?) to stop carrying Patchin Review.

     Just a bit of info, for those who don't get enough.

Ariel Shattan
decvax!tektronix!tekecs!ariels

------------------------------

Date: 6 October 1983 16:49 edt
From: Barry Margolin at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: six impossible things before breakfast

     Is the phrase "six impossible things before breakfast" original
with Hitch-hiker's Guide (it was used in the entry for Milliways, the
Restaurant at the End of the Universe)?  I just heard it used last
night on the "Hotel" TV series; the woman said:

          Sometimes, if you think of six impossible things
          before breakfast, one of them might come true?

     Was the writer a HHGttG fan, or am I just ignorant?

                                        barmar

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  3 Oct 83 13:25:13 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay
Subject: re: Hitchhikers guide books in paperback

     Well, I couldn't find Restaurant at the End of the Universe in
paper at any of the local book sellers, receiving various replys of "
we can't seem to order it ", " we're all out, and don't know when
we're gonna get more ", " it isn't out in paper yet " , to " it
does'nt exist in paper yet. ".

     I found it that afternoon at the Ralphs store down the road when
I went shopping for the week.  You really wonder sometimes.

                Dave Godwin, (the invisible one) at UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 1983 1212-EDT
From: Roger H. Goun <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Bad SF

     Eric (...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric) brought up the subject of
the worst SF around, "the stuff written by authors that know nothing
about the field but just want to cash in."

     The worst SF novel I can ever recall reading, and a classic
example of what eric describes, is ARMADA, by Michael Jahn.  (My
library is still packed from a recent move, so I'm not absolutely sure
of the author's name.)

     The plot, and I use the term loosely, revolves around an attempt
to destroy a huge alien battleship.  The aliens (who are never
described -- that would require that the author use his imagination)
send scoutships down to Earth's surface.  These scoutships reduce
people to black sludge and carry them off to be eaten.

     Space shuttles such as Columbia figure prominently in this little
drama, but the capabilities which are ascribed to them are ludicrous.
I will not describe the ending, not because I fear a spoiler, but
because many of you would die of laughter in front of your terminals
if I did.

     I seem to recall being awestruck that the author was associated
with The New York Times, though I don't remember in what capacity.

     Has anyone else seen this book, or was I the only one foolish
enough to shell out for it?

                                   -- Roger Goun
                                      DEC, Hudson, MA
                                      VLSI@DEC-Marlboro.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 83 10:52:36-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!duke!unc!mcnc!dvamc!ccw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: A Rave for Courtship Rite

     Courtship Rite appeared in Analog in the early part of this year
and I too liked it very much.  It was a four(?) part serial.

                                        Chris Woodbury
                                        decvax!mcnc!dvamc!ccw

------------------------------

Date: 3 October 1983 10:16 cdt
From: Bibbero.PMSDMKT
Subject: Subway named Mobius

     Re scott preece's mention of a story by this title, I recall with
much pleasure reading one in Analog or a similar magazine (some
decades ago) about a link that was added to the Boston Subway, causing
the system to become "infinitely connected" (in the sense of
topology), which resulted in the loss of a train into another
dimension.  The problem was solved and the train rescued by the help
of an MIT professor of mathematics, naturally.  Is this the same story
recalled by Scott?  Who was the author and where did it first appear?
If I am thinking of a different story, does anyone recall the one I
synopsed?

Bob Bibbero -- Bibbero.PMSDMKT at HI-MULTICS

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 83 10:48:28-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: John Myers Myers query

     Could anyone tell me what the name of the book which was the
sequel to *Silverlock* is?

Thanx,
Jeff Myers

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 83 15:11:08-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: John Myers Myers query

     The sequel (sort-of) to "Silverlock" is "The Moon's Fire-Eating
Daughter."  Shandon himself doesn't appear, but someone else gets to
tour the Civilization Trail.

                      Bruce Cohen
                      UUCP:   ...!teklabs!tekecs!brucec
                      CSNET:  tekecs!brucec@tektronix
                      ARPA:   tekecs!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Oct 83 2217-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #97
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 6 Oct 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 97

Today's Topics:
      Books - Spider Robinson & Norman Spinrad & Roger Zelazny &
                          New Book Releases,
         Discussion - SF for Adolescents and Others (3 msgs)
        Film - A Boy and His Dog & WarGames & Star Trek III &
                     The Star Wars Saga (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon,  3 Oct 83 13:25:13 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.UCI@Rand-Relay
Subject: Spider Robinson

     Just a note for any of you people out there who don't know who
Spider Robinson is (yes, both of you), or have not read any of his
work.  I have never found a more humorous, sensitive writer in any
field, and will recommend *anything* of his as fantastic.  The novel
he and his wife Jeanne wrote together, Stardance, won either the Huge
or the Nebula (or was it both ??), and Spider has won the John W.
Campbell award for best new writer (that was several years back).

     His Callahan's bar stories has been published in Analog and S&SF
so many of you will know him, but all of his Callahans to date are out
in two paperback collections:

                Callahan's Crosstime Saloon   &
                Time Travellers Strictly cash

     His last collection, Antinomy, is worth the cover price for the
title story alone, so if there is any body who dosn't know this guy's
work yet, be ashamed and atone for your sins.

     His last book, MindKiller, was out and gone before I could get a
copy or read it, by the way, so if any body out in net-land knows if
it is still in print, or where I can buy or steal a copy, I would much
appreciate it.

                Dave Godwin, (the invisible one) at UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 83 11:46:27-PDT (Mon)
From: sri-unix!decvax!tektronix!tekecs!tom@rlgvax.UUCP@CCA
Subject: Norman Spinrad

     I just saw a reference to an excellent Spinrad short story titled
"Carcinoma Angels".  I read this in a collection of Spinrad short
stories, titled, I think, "Last Hurrah of the Golden Horde", after
another story in the book.  I enjoyed LHofGH quite a bit, (note: in
other stories, particularly novels, Spinrad is a bit violent and
shock-prone) but have been unable to find this book again, nor have I
found the short story in any other book, though I've looked.

     Any help, anyone?

     Has anyone read his compilation on the History of Science Fiction
(I forgot the title, similar to the previous phrase, though I think he
avoided the dangerous term "science fiction").  I thought it was an
excellent collection spanning the '40s, 50's and I think '60s, and
with worthwhile editorial comment.  A good book for a course, I
thought.

- Tom Beres
{seismo, allegra, mcnc, brl-bmd, we13, gatech}!rlgvax!tom

------------------------------

Date: 2-Oct-83 20:14 PDT
From: RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny [3 new "Amber" novels]

Here is the item from the Oct 83 issue of LOCUS:

     "ROGER ZELAZNY has sold three new "Amber" novels to Avon for a
six-figure advance.  Neither Zelazny nor Avon editor John Douglas
would comment on the exact figure, rumored to be 'a quarter million,
give or take a hundred thou.'

     'It's a decent amount,' was all Zelazny would say.  'When I began
NINE PRINCES IN AMBER, I thought I could wind it up in one book.  Then
I saw it needed a sequel.  By the time I was into the second book, I
thought it might be a trilogy.  In the end, it took five books to tell
the particular story I felt was there.'

     "The "Amber" books have sold between 250,000 and 400,000 copies
per volume in Avon paperbacks.  Zelazny's bestselling book, LORD OF
LIGHT, has sold over 500,000 copies in its Avon edition.

     "The new trilogy is not a continuation of the story in THE COURTS
OF CHAOS (the fifth novel).  It starts at a later time, involving a
different story line but some of the same characters left over from
the earlier books.  The first of the trilogy is scheduled for delivery
next October.

     "'I'm also planning another collaboration with Fred Saberhagen,'
said Zelazny.  At present, he's writing some short stories, including
a "Berserker" tale for an anthology of "Berserker" stories edited by
Fred Saberhagen but written by others."

-Rich Zellich
<ZELLICH@OFFICE-3>

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 83 21:18:17 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: New Book Releases...

     Here are some new book releases that I noticed in the book store
today:

     1.  Mutiny on the Enterprise--by Robert E. Vardeman (TIMESCAPE
BOOKS), $2.95.  Vardeman wrote another Star Trek book--called The
Klingon Gambit.  It was so-so, but I've been picking up everything
related to Star Trek these days in order to help with my plans to run
FASA's STAR TREK: THE ROLE-PLAYING GAME.

     2.  The Island of Dr. Death and Other Stories and Other
Stories--by Gene Wolfe (TIMESCAPE BOOKS) $3.95 (approximate).
Honestly, that was the title.  The book looked thicker than the
release I saw some years back--perhaps Wolfe has added some stories???
I would have picked this one up too, but was low on cash.  Anybody
have any news on when the final volume of "New Sun" is going to be in
paperback????

     3.  Life, the Universe and Everything--Douglas Adams (POCKET
BOOKS) $3.50.  $3.50!!!!  Ouch!!!!  Such a high price for such a small
book!!!  Ah well, nobody can ever accuse me of not being a
completeist!!!

     4.  Janissaries: Clan and Crown--Jerry Pournelle and Roland Green
(ACE BOOKS), $3.50.  I had to look hard to find Roland Green's name,
it isn't on the outside!  This is a sequel to Pournelle's previous
JANISSARIES--about a group of culvert soldiers in Africa getting
kidnapped by aliens and taken to another world where they help to
cultivate a crop needed by the aliens--until they join with the humans
there already and revolt.  The first book was a lot of fun, and was
the basis for a TRAVELLER adventure that I ran once.  This one
promises to be fun, also.  Illustrated by Josep M. Martin Sauri.

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: Mon 3 Oct 83 17:20:27-EDT
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: SF & juveniles

     Why do some people get so upset when someone use the term
"Sci-Fi"?  I (and many of my friend's) think this is the sensible way
to pronounce SF. Is there some real reason not to use this term, or is
this just another one of those "real fan" things? Flame off.
(Clobberin' off?)

     Anyway, on the subject of juvenile SF: I first started reading SF
with truly massive amounts of the (Lester) Del Rey juveniles. There
must have been dozens of them. I have no idea how good they are; I've
never had the nerve to go back and reread them. Some other stuff that
I read that I think no-one has mentioned is a few random books by
Alexander Key, several excellent juveniles by Ben Bova, and at least 2
books by Gordon R. Dickson (and ?) with titles like Secret Under ____.
I moved onto 'adult' books pretty quickly though; I never saw a
library with a good selection of SF books before the Star Wars craze
hit, so I couldn't afford to be fussy.

                                [<{(Jacob Butcher)}>]
                                        ^parenthetically speaking...

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 83 9:37:28-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!iwsl1!ttb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: sf for juveniles

     For anyone interested in sf for juveniles, this is from the
preferred reading list of my son's junior high school:

Bradbury:   R is for Rocket

Clarke:     Dolphin Island

Heinlein:   Farmer in the Sky
   "        Podkayne of Mars
   "        The Killing Stones

L'Engle:    A Wrinkle in Time

--
                       Tom Butler
                       ..!ihnp4!iwsl1!ttb
                       (as of 9/30 ..!ihnp4!iwsl3!ttb)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 83 9:37:19-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxe!burton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Mushroom Planet books

     Well, curiosity got the better of me, so I decided to call my
local library to see if they had any information on the Tycho Bass
series that I mentioned in a previous article. The only book I could
remember was "Mr. Bass's Planetoid", which the librarian said they
had, along with some of the others. It turned out they had ALL of the
others, so I checked them out and here is the relevant information:

     The Mushroom Planet books by Eleanor Cameron:

     The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet (1954)

     Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet (1956)

     Mr. Bass's Planetoid (1958)

     A Mystery for Mr. Bass (1960)

     Time and Mr. Bass (1967)

     These books concern the adventures of David Topman and Chuck
Masterson with their astronomer-artist-inventor friend Tycho Bass from
the Mushroom Planet. The Mushroom Planet is a small satellite of Earth
which can only be seen through a telescope with a special filter.
David and Chuck built a rocket in response to an ad Mr. Bass placed in
a local paper, and using sealant and fuel provided by Mr. Bass, they
traveled to the Mushroom Planet to meet Mr. Bass's people (the
Mushroom people, or Mycetians as they were later called).

     I haven't read the books yet, but I intend to now that I've found
them again. Sure they're on a juvenile level; so what?

     I also discovered that the library has many of John Christopher's
books as well; maybe I'll check them out after these.

Doug Burton
ihnp4!inuxe!burton
ATTCP-IN

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 1983 1656-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: Boys and Dogs

Address: Kestrel Institute, 1801 Page Mill Rd., Palo Alto, CA  94304
Phone: (415) 494-2233

     In the movie "A Boy and His Dog," there was a woman in one of the
encampments where the boy was staying (she was watching the porno
flick, if you remember).  I also think the girl from "down under" got
what she deserved for leading the boy into a deadly situation for her
own interest.

     "Old Yeller," on the other hand, DID bother me a GREAT deal.  The
movie is loaded with too much senseless blood and guts (it seemed as
if they were shooting animals all over the place) and treats death
much too callously.

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 83 21:10:47 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: WarGames

     Two small notes on WarGames:

     First, the October issue of "Personal Computing" has an article
called "Could WARGAMES Happen?"  It was quite well-written, and
informative, giving many reasons why WarGames could not happen, as
well as some past problems with the defense computer network...

     Secondly, after reading that article, I dragged out my copy of
the novelization, by David Birschoff, and found the following:

     "From previous experience David knew that the process could take
hours.  These computer folks weren't dumb.  They didn't exactly hand
out their special modem numbers on a silver platter.  With a nation
full of hackers, that would be tantamount to suicide.

     "The monitor screen began to fill up with numbers.  "Good job,"
David thought.  "Good job."

     "After turning down the monitor speaker, he grabbed a new science
fiction paperback he'd shoplifted--a novel called DAY OF THE
DRAGONSTAR--and began to read."

     Of course, DAY OF THE DRAGONSTAR is by Bischoff himself!!!

Many laughs,

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 06 Oct 83 11:30:06 PDT (Thu)
From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Star Trek III news

     According to the L.A. Times, Christopher Lloyd ("Taxi") will play
a villain named Kruge (rhymes with Scrooge, I suppose) in STIII. The
spokesman from whom this tidbit came was quoted as saying about Kruge:
"I can't tell you anything else about him except he's <<mean>>."

        --jns

------------------------------

Date: 5 OCT 1983 0445 EDT
From: METZ at MIT-ML
Subject: Re-hashing an overcooked subject

     On the topic of the Other, in RotJ (pulling on my asbestos
sweater):

     Darth Vader was indeed the other; Leia is - or rather will be -
simply a carrier of the genes that apparently give the owner increased
control over the Force.  This is not a sexist attack on Leia's general
capability as a person; it is, rather, an estimation of position based
on what Lucas has given us to work with. Leia does virtually nothing
with Luke during RotJ; with the exception of saying that she "knows"
that Luke is alive, near the end, she demonstrates almost none of the
ability that is inherent in her genes. Who plays a major role in
deciding the outcome of the movie?  Darth Vader. Who saves Luke
Skywalker's life? Darth Vader. Upon whose thoughts and emotions does
the happy outcome of the story depend (I mean Luke's survival as the
Last of the Jedi, not the big bash on the Forest Moon of Endor -
commonly called Endor, since humans have little use for the mother
planet, except possibly as a source of fuel for those FTL drives. The
big bash would have gone on anyway, since those abominable little
creatures probably wouldn't have cared or understood about all that
Last of the Jedi bilge)? Darth Vader's.

     Now, who is relegated to the background of the climactic movie of
the current Star Wars trilogy? Leia Organa. Who is (perhaps unjustly)
made to be one of the *supporting* cast? Leia Organa. Remember, the
focus of the whole movie is on whether or not the Jedi philosophy will
remain intact; if Luke Skywalker goes, there will be no one to teach
Leia to be a Jedi Knight (please, no comments about Red Lensmen, et
al).  The final point is even easier to make, since it is based on
objective data obtainable in various magazines and journals about
movies and SF; G. Lucas' stated intent is to film a trilogy of
prequels showing the events that lead up to Star Wars: A New Hope.
Even if the trilogy is shortened to two movies, the next film in which
Leia Organa, Luke, Han, and everyone else will not be released for at
least 8 or 9 years. I suspect that Lucas will have acquired new young
actors to play the leading roles in the final trilogy. Those roles
will almost certainly be the children (or even farther removed
descendants) of Luke and Leia, with an as yet unknown female character
becoming mother to Luke's kids, and (so it seems) Han Solo as the sire
of Leia's children.

Harold S. Metz

------------------------------

Date: 5 OCT 1983 0536 EDT
From: METZ at MIT-ML
Subject: stormtrooper armor

     Stormtrooper armor, that most ridiculous of wasted effort....

     How about this explanation:

     The armor worn by the stormtroopers in the three SW movies is not
simply useless. It is, rather, obsolete. If such armor were a holdover
from earlier decades, when lightsabres were more common, and if said
armor were *USEFUL* against lightsabres, Then, perhaps the wearing of
the armor is simplya beaurocratic screwup, coupled with, perhaps, some
important person's ideas about how to impress the yokels (in addition
to Vader and the stormtroopers, those guys who were apparently
guarding the Emporer were wearing a variation on the stormtrooper
theme, in red, to mark them as Imperial Guards).

     As time passed, weapons became more powerful, until the armor
which used to be good against the predominant weapon of the day (the
lightsabre) became obsolete. This would not be the first time that
weapons technology ran ahead of defense technology.

     For supporting evidence, observe that Luke apparently swats
several of Jabba's thugs in the big fight scene in the desert, and lo!
they are not divided into separate parts. Also, note that the blow
that takes of Vader's hand is the climax of a long series of blows,
each more powerful than the last, spurred on by Luke's anger and fear
when Vader threatens to go get Leia and seduce her to the Dark Side of
the Force.

Harold S. Metz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Oct 83 2250-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #98
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 6 Oct 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 98

Today's Topics:
              Discussion - SF & Literary Merit (5 msgs),
            Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & Studs Terkel,
                          Comics - Elfquest

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Pretentious old books
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 83 11:45:51 EDT
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>

     i two em "curious as to why people are picking out Moby Dick and
War and Peace as books of 'lasting literary merit'."  i wunce tryed to
reed Moby Dick, but i cudent finnish et.  i wuz unabel to understand.
They talks so difrent, i thot et wuz boreng an two long.  i bet no one
haz evr red Moby Dick they all jest lye about it so's we'll think
their smarts.  Well i think thet eny book wich is hart to reed,
preetentchous, an' old shud be burnt steak.  I lik books lik "Atom
Pulverizers of the Nuclear Galaxy", by the Rust Proof Rodent.  Thet's
gud Sci-Fi!

     (flame off; see Shoe (syndicated newpaper cartoon) from 10/02/83
for more)

     How about a merit survey for "Best book(s) [SF&F/Non-SF&F] of all
time"?

Flames to martin@YALE; no, I do NOT offer to run such a survey.  CEM.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 83 17:30:55 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: despicable name??

     By all the gods in all the planes, what difference does it make
whether the Genre of Fiction of Time not the Present is called sci-fi,
or sf, or gobbledygook??????? A label does not an item make, nor a
category iron bars. Elitism does not make for understanding, and often
reveals the insecurities of those who want to be believed elite.
Sci-fi is popular, descriptive and convenient, and much less easily
confused than sf, which can be made to mean all sorts of descriptive
phrases, some of which are even derogatory. It is much more difficult
to do that with sci-fi. Why should people who care about the genre
bother with those who are so small minded that they insult a helpless
category? Any name can be an insult if the right vocal intonation is
put to it, just as a curse can be a term of endearment.

sheesh!

sprinkler system enabled...
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 5 OCT 1983 0600 EDT
From: METZ at MIT-ML
Subject: Merit survey additions

     I would like to nominate John Myers Myers' Silverlock as one of
the great works of "contemporary" fantasy. Who will argue?  A personal
favorite which I did not see listed was "When Worlds Collide" and its
sequel "After Worlds Collide". These two novels are very much like
many mainstream novels in some ways, but they are not boring, like so
many mainstream novels. The story is fairly fast-paced, the people in
it are interesting (for the most part), and all in all these are not
bad as just plain "literature", let alone SF.

Harold S. Metz

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 83 23:18:31-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Merit Survey Results - (nf)

     I have to admit I've only read the Lord of the Rings once (1965).
I expect to read it again, eventually, in a less-busy phase of my
life. The problem with reading things over again (let alone over and
over) is that it eats up time. This leads eventually to having a set
of things you reread in a repeated pattern (oh, this is August, time
for Jane Austen). Just now (young kids) I haven't nearly enough time
to keep up with even that subset of new stuff that really appeals to
me, let alone the other items that have less appeal but seem to be
worthy of attention. Even on my list of books to be reread, though,
LOTR doesn't come all that high, mostly because of its length. On the
other hand, talking about it has brought back some memories; maybe
I'll try taking in on our next vacation...

scott preece
pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 83 23:38:03 EDT
From: Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: on literary merit

     Those of you who are interested in critical reaction to SF might
find it worth looking at a book of essays by C.S. Lewis: "On Stories
and Other Essays on Literature", Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich.  (edited
by Walter Hooper).  Lewis has the advantage of being both an author of
SF and a literary scholar.  This book has discussions of a number of
topics that have been raised recently, including critical reaction to
SF and writing for children.  He also has some interesting discussions
on what it means for art to be "good", and whether this is simply a
matter of taste. (He believes, and I agree, that it is not.)  One of
Lewis' theses is that the simple goal of telling a good story has not
been admired by the critical establishment.  Hooper comments in the
preface: "...in 1966...  the most vocal of the literary critics were
encouraging readers to find in literature almost everything, life's
monotony, social injustice, sympathy with the downtrodden poor,
drudgery, cynicism, and distaste: everything except *enjoyment*.  Step
out of line and you were branded an 'escapist'."  Lewis comments (in
an illuminating conversation with Brian Aldiss and Kingsley Amis):
"Matthew Arnold made the horrible prophecy that literature would
increasingly replace religion.  It has, and it's taken on all the
features of bitter persecution, great intolerance, and traffic in
relics.  All literature becomes a sacred text.  A sacred text is
always exposed to the most monstrous exegesis; hence we have the
spectacle of some wretched scholar taking a pure divertissement
written in the 17th century and getting the most profound ambiguities
and social criticisms out of it... It's the discovery of the mare's
nest by the pursuit of the red herring."

     Lewis believes, and I agree, that SF is very much oriented
towards telling good stories.  My overall impression of "high-quality"
fiction is that for the last century of so, particularly the last 50
years, it has tended to wallow in the hopelessness of life.  SF, on
the other hand, tends to leave us with a feeling that the human race
has a lot of adventures in store for it.  (Sorry if this sounds too
much like an ad for Star Trek II.)  This is true even if the
particular work has a dark tone.  I do not claim to be an expert in
literature.  Maybe someone else on the list can correct this.  But
what I recall from my days in school is that until recently, the
literature that survived tended to be much more like current SF.  The
early stuff that I remember reading in school includes adventure
stores (Beowulf and the early epics, Walter Scott, Kipling) and works
with fantastic elements (Dante and other work of that period, and the
works in all periods based on the Arthurian legends).  Shakespeare
seems rather at the level of modern TV documdramas, both in his
historical accuracy and in his emphasis on action.  It isn't until we
get to about the 18th or 19th Century that authors start being
controlled by the ideal of representing The Human Condition.  It seems
to have started about Dickens' time, but even Dickens felt obliged to
tell good stories.  As we progress(?) from there, "serious" literature
seems to become more and more preoccupied with The Human Condition and
more and more divorced from anything an average reader would actually
read.  Books are not the only place where this happened.  Those of you
who have walked through an art museum recently or who listen to
contemporary music (not rock, but the sort of things that are
performed by orchestras and studied in music courses) will know that
analagous things happened in both art and music.  The Christian
philosopher Francis Shaeffer has written a book (sorry - I don't
remember which of his books) that takes a look at this progession.
His theory (as you might guess if you know his theology) is that this
change is a result of changes in the value systems prevailing among
the intelligentsia. Until recently, most of the West held the view
that human life had real, intrinsic value, which it got from God, and
that human history was going somewhere worthwhile.  Once this idea is
abandoned (as it was by a rather large fraction of the people who work
in the humanities), life can very quickly start looking like "a tale
told by an idiot", and interesting stories like "escape" from the real
world in which humans are struggling to find values for themselves in
a life where real values are no longer present.  I suspect that most
people on this list would not accept all of Shaeffer's ideas.  But his
analysis of the direction in which art has moved does seem to have a
lot to it.  Fortunately, there does seem to have been movement back in
the other direction recently.  You will no longer get kicked out of a
music school if your music has an identifiable melody.  Paintings
produced by the chimpanzees in the Cincinnati zoo are no longer
showing up in art museums.  Who knows, maybe the gap between
interesting stories and serious literature will be narrowed also.  If
so, SF will surely benefit.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 83 11:48:03 EDT
From: Saul Jaffe <Jaffe@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Doctor Who

     I believe that Peter Cushing has also played the Doctor in two
films produced in England.  I don't know the names of them but one
concerned the Daleks and was released around 1965 and the other was
released around 1973.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 83 21:05:26 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Dr. Who

     The two Dr. Who movies with Peter Cushing were:

                        Dr. Who and the Daleks

              Invasion Earth: 2112 (or a similar date).

     I remember them as being vastly fun, and being based on episodes
from the first season or two of Dr. Who. The first movie involved Dr.
Who, his granddaughter, his granddaughter's teacher, and a
plainclothes policeman.  They get sent into the future/space
accidentaly, and end up on the planet of the Daleks.  After much
mucking around (God, those robots were scary to the 12 year old who
saw this movie!), and a link up with the natives of the planet, the
Daleks were defeated...

     The second movie had Dr. Who and the same crew travelling into
the future and finding a wrecked Earth.  The Daleks, it turns out,
invaded the planet and have killed off or driven into hiding most of
humanity.  Some humans have been turned into robots (another scary
concept for a 12 year old!).  The plan is to drill core to the center
of the Earth, punch a hole through with an atomic bomb, and empty the
Earth of the molten core.  The Daleks were then going to add engines
and steer the Earth throughout the universe on a mission of conquest.
After many hair-raising adventures, the Daleks were defeated (just
barely as I recall), and our heroes went off again in search of
adventure...

     Fun stuff, I wish that they would show them again!

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Oct 83 10:56:18 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-vgr>
Subject: Studs Terkel

     Anyone catch Asmiov, Wolfe, and Ellison on ARTS with Studs
Terkel.  If so did I miss anything (other than Gene making cracks
about Isaac's age).  I turned it off because I can't take more than
about thirty seconds of Ellison talking.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 5 OCT 1983 0611 EDT
From: METZ at MIT-ML
Subject: Elfquest

     I read Elfquest regularly, and I thought I should mention, for
those of you who may be prompted to go out and get interested in EQ,
that the story is presented in black and white comic form three times
a year, in January, May, and September. In addition, the story is
currently at issue #17, as of 9/83, and Elfquest was designed as a
limited series - it will stop at #20. I still recommend that you run
out and buy every issue you can lay your hands on, but be warned -
after issue #20, Richard and Wendy Pini will probably take a nice year
long (or longer) vacation, before they start another story from
whatever groundwork is laid by the end of the first opus.

     The entire story is being re-issued in color, in books comprising
five issues of EQ apiece. If you don't want the bother of taking care
of the comics, by all means go out and by the hardbound coffee-table
sized editions (expensive, believe me) or the much more reasonable
softcover editions - same color, much lower price, for the less than
fanatical bibliophile.

Harold S. Metz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 83 1824-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #99
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 14 Oct 1983       Volume 8 : Issue 99

Today's Topics:
                         Film - Bladerunner,
            Television - Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy,
                   Books - Douglas Adams (4 msgs) &
                  The Very Worst Book Ever Written,
               Conventions - Convention List Updated &
          Those Awful Science Fiction Cults at Conventions,
              Discussion - Education in Science Fiction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 83 23:05:44 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Discrepancy in the movie "Bladerunner"??

     I was watching the movie "Bladerunner" the other day and believe
I noticed a very large discrepancy.  They say that 6 replicants left
the off-world colony.  One got "fried" trying to enter Tyrell Corp. on
earth.  That leaves 5, but they only refer (and kill) 4!!!

     Has someone noticed something that I haven't that would explain
this?  Note that I have not read the book yet (planning to, just
haven't gotten around to it yet) and it might be explained in there.

Thanks,
ds

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1983 09:56:22-PDT
From: david at cit-vax
Subject: `Hitchhikers Guide' on TV!

     I have recently seen an EXCELLENT television adaptation of "The
Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" on PBS. This adaptation, which is
done by the BBC, not only adheres to the original book quite well but
has incredibly hilarious special effects, particularly when dealing
with the actual book.

     However, the episode I saw was but the half-hour long first of a
series and I am deeply interested in any information anyone else has
about the show. Are they planning to adapt all three books? How long
will the series run? (etc. etc.) Anyone willing to pick up the ball
and roll with it, please contact me either through this digest, or by
private mail.

                            Dave Hayes
                            California Institute of Technology
                            dave@cit-vax

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1983 2327-PDT
Subject: Hitchhiker rumor
From: John Platt <PLATT@CIT-20.ARPA>

     One of my friends went to a San Deigo convention which Douglas
Adams attended. Supposedly, Adams is wearily writing a fourth book,
called "So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish". Can anyone confirm or
deny this rumor ?

                                   John Platt
                                   platt@cit-20 (ARPA)
                                   cithep!citcsv!platt (UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 83 10:31:58-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!cbosgd!cbdkc1!pyuxmm!pyuxnn!pyuxi!pyuxn!rlr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Deep conceptual joke  (CARNAC)

     You are watching Johnny Carson.  He and Ed McMahon are doing
their usual "Carnac the Magnificent" routine.  Carnac has just uttered
a truly repulsive question, counterpointed by the hisses and boos of
the audience.  "May a depraved yak herder offer your sister to a
convention," he mutters.  McMahon gives Carnac another envelope.
Carnac puts the envelope to his forehead and says: "42".

     Suddenly your TV screen goes blank, you see a blinding flash of
light outside and

(Moderator's Note: Before I'm deluged...that's where the message
ends!)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 1983 2130-PDT
Subject: Space-time-cost warp
From: FEATHER@USC-ISIF.ARPA (Martin S. Feather)

re:   From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
      Subject: New Book Releases...
      3.  Life, the Universe and Everything--Douglas Adams (POCKET
     BOOKS) $3.50.  $3.50!!!!  Ouch!!!!  Such a high price for such
     a small book!!!  Ah well, nobody can ever accuse me of not
     being a completeist!!!

     Life, the Universe and Everything (PAN) costs a mere 1.50 pounds
sterling in England - at today's exchange rate, that's approx $2.25
(of course, by the time you read this message, things might be wildly
different...).  Must be the translation into American that's so
expensive.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 83 23:54:51-PDT (Sat)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Restaurant at the End of the Univers - (nf)

     In October (which is now), Faber and Faber are scheduled to
release a book called "The Meaning of Life" by Douglas Adams and John
Lloyd.  From the title alone I would assume it's the fourth book of
the trilogy though I'm not sure.  Anyone read it yet? Please let us
know.

                                        Mary

P.S.  I love the sound of "The Fourth Book of the -------- trilogy"

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 83 10:36:57-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!csu-cs!denelcor!pking @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Very Worst Book Ever Written

     As in the discussion concerning bad films, I'm sure there will be
some controversy as to what is the worst science fiction book of all
time.  There are many books of noteworthy badness, some even make it
to the best sellers list (Battlefield Earth).  Most, of course, get
the obscurity they so richly deserve.  There is the category of
completely unnecessary books; mediocre followups to quality novels.
In this group I include: "Foundation's Edge" by Asimov, "Dune
Messiah", "Children of Dune", "God Emperor of Dune" by Herbert, and
"2010: Odyssey Two" by Clarke to name a few well-known examples.
These are books that clearly should not have been written, they are
useless (except for profit con- siderations).  Then there are the
books that are similar to the last category, completely unoriginal
"novels", such as the aleph- null "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" the
leperous rapist, that manage to become extremely popular.

     I'd rather not concern myself with this subject.  Far more
interesting are the stupefyingly plotted, ineptly written, yet somehow
published books that fall into the category of ULTRA-TRASH.  Prime
examples of this category include : "The Clones" by P.T. Olomy,
"Colossus and the Crab" by D.F. Jones, "The Flying Eyes" by J. Hunter
Holly, "Laid in the Future" by Rod Gray, "Wolfman versus the Vampire
Woman" author unknown (features poetry, actually doggerel), and
"Pleasure Planet" by Edward George.

     But I'm not going to talk any more about this stuff.  I'm going
to tell you about the very worst book ever written ... "Galaxy 666" by
Pel Torro.

     Galaxy 666, as you might surmise, concerns the exploration of a
demonic, by virtue of an arbitrary numbering scheme, galaxy.  The plot
is, aside from the rather predictable exploratory adventure,
completely asinine; the characterization could only be termed
ludicrous; the writing would be called sophomoric only by someone more
generous with their praise than am I; but those aspects of the book
that are not common in other bad sci-fi (not s.f.) are almost bad
beyond belief.

     In the event you have not read this monumental work, I will
include a couple of real socko passages ("for the purposes of
review"), to give you some idea of Torro's incredible talent.  As you
will notice, the most noteworthy feature of the master's writing is
that he can not say something once.

     Actually, if you do not have this book, you really should get a
hold of a copy and subject yourself to it.


(describing the landscape)

     "... Across to their right they could see two round hillocks
coming out of the ground itself.  Between their own position and those
two hillocks, there was an expanse of flat smooth rock, so flat and
smooth that it was slippery and difficult to walk on.  There were
pinkish streaks among the rock, and it seemed that some of the
chromatic from the atmosphere owed its origin to these.  There were a
number of white veins in the rock, which bore some kind of resemblance
to marble, but the majority of it was grey.  It gave an over-all
impression of greyness streaked with pink and white, rather than an
over-all impression of whiteness tinged with grey and pink, or an
over-all impression of pink streaked with grey and white.

     Greyness was the dominant background shade; neither black no
(sic) white, but something midway between the two.  It was a light
rather than a dark grey, yet it could never had (sic) been so light
that it might be mistaken for an off white.

     The four explorers carried on across this flat terrain; Ischklah
suddenly tripped and sprawled full length.  The substance on which
they walked was hard, and yet did not have the same unyielding
hardness as granite or flint.  It was more like the hardness of tough
and highly polished wood.  Ischklah picked himself up and rubbed
ruefully at a bruise on his shin.
'Darn stuff is hard,' he said."


(on meeting aliens)

     "...Through the pinky white light something that was obviously a
living creature was coming toward them.  In fact, several somethings
were coming toward them.  They were not the kind of somethings that
commend themselves by virtue of the charm of their physical
appearance.  Some people would say that there is much to be said for
first impressions; others try to disregard first impressions on
principle.  Bronet was of the latter school of thought; otherwise he,
being the nearest of the four explorers to the things, would have
taken to his heels with a scream of fear.

     There are some strange life forms in the universe.  Judged by
humanoid standards, these things were not only strange; they were
revoltingly strange.

     The things were odd, weird, grotesque.  there was something
horribly uncustomary and unwonted about them.  They were completely
unfamiliar.  Their appearance was outlandish and extraordinary.  There
was something quite phenomenal about them.  They were supernormal;
they were unparalleled; they were unexampled.  The shape of the aliens
was singular in every sense.  They were curious, odd, queer, peculiar
and fantastic, and yet when every adjective had been used on them,
when every preternatural epithet had been applied to their abberant
and freakish appearance, when everything that could be said about such
eccentric, exceptional, anomalous creatures had been said, they still
remained indescribable in any concrete terms."


(the scientific method)

     "...'Co-ordinates 1,9,7,5,4,862/003,' called Ischklah.

     '9071 3/4.  O24 co-ordinates CBJ, para co-ordinate 198, 002,'
called Bronet.

     'Hyper co-ordinate 10467,' said Korzaak.  'Ultra-co-ordinate
194/312/564/8179,' said Ischklah.

     'Infra-co-ordinate,' began Bronet.  '987.56 reference co-ordinate
1325.'

     'Alpha reading high.' said Ischklah.

     'Beta scale medium.' called Bronet.

     'Gamma steady,' said Korzaak.

     'Aleph pointer, zero.  Beth pointer, zero.'

     'Gimel pointer minus 2,' cut in Korzaak.

     Oski was tickling his toy computer with the desperate fury of an
accordionist trying to make himself heard at a space veterans concert,
competing with three electro-tapes and a hi-fi color organ.  He was
scratching away at the computer as though it were a part of his own
body that was particularly sensitive and had been invaded by fleas.

     There was a particularly virulent flea on an odd little world
round one of the less significant planets in Galaxy 297.  It was known
as a matchi.  Ischklah looked at Oski for a second and grinned.

     'You're scratching that computer as if it were covered with
matchis,' he said.

     'Ugh,' said Oski.  'Have you ever gotten tangled up with those
brutes?'

     'No thanks,' said Ischklah.  'But I knew an old space veteran
once who did!  He's still got the twitch!'

     'They're hellish things,' said Bronet.  His face clouded over
momentarily.  'Hellish things.' he repeated.  'By the seven green
moons, I'd rather take on an Altarian gasha beast than get mixed up
with those little devils.  There's nothing much you can do when the
matchis are on the warpath.  What they lack in size they more than
make up for in ferocity, persistence and numerical superiority."

     'O.K. I'm ready for the next set of figures,' said Oski.


     Well, that ought to convince even the most skeptical of you out
there in net land.  "Galaxy 666" by Pel Torro was published by
Belmont/Tower books (in the U.S.), by somebody else in England (both
hardcover and paperback).

              P. King  (...!seismo!hao!csu-cs!denelcor!pking)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1983 1751-PDT
From: Zellich@OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons list updated

     OFFICE-3 file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready
for FTP.  OFFICE-3 supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within
FTP, using any password.

     CONS.TXT is currently 1159 lines (or 58,729 characters).  Please
try to limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if
possible, as the system is heavily loaded during the day.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 83 8:49:58-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!rene @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: letter about WorldCon

     About two weeks ago, this editorial was written to the Baltimore
Sun apparently after another paper had printed pictures of the costume
call.

"FIGHT THE STRANGE CULTS OF SCIENCE FICTION

     "In observing the photographs (The News American, Sept. 4) of
girls in costume at the World Science Fiction Fair held at the Balti-
more Convention Center, I thought to myself that the girls indeed had
beautiful faces, but their eyes held a vacant stare, as if they were
under a strange power or a cult.

     "Adults should fight cults that ruin and warp children's thinking
in the name of science fiction.. The history of natural sciences is
an education for all. Our best teacher in sci- ence is still nature.

            Margaret Martin
                Reisterstown"

     I think any sort of modelling show with all the tension that goes
along with it, like smiling for hours on end for endless photographers
would make anyone seem a little glazed. Geez!

                           - not afraid to sign her name
                                   rene

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Oct 83 17:00:10-EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Education in Science Fiction

     Considering all the attention education is getting these days, I
thought it might be interesting to get up a list of science fiction
about education.  Here are some titles for starters:

     R.A. Lafferty "Education Among the Camiroi"--turns progressive
educational dogma on its head.

     George O. Smith "The 4th R" [novel]--youngster uses memory
implant machine to become supergenius.

     Alfred Bester ?? "Disappearing Act"--war-readied U.S. frantically
searches for a poet to apply time travel.

     Isaac Asimov "The Fun they Had" and "A Feeling of Power"

     Some years ago a friend of mine (and occasional SF writer) edited
a book "Controversies in Education", including stories by Lafferty and
Asimov.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 83 1829-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #100
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 14 Oct 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 100

Today's Topics:
                      Discussion - Organbanks &
                    "Sci-Fi" vs. "S.F." (7 msgs),
              Books - Isaac Asimov & David Brin (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 83 16:54:58-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!drux3!hogpc!houca!trc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: a selfish heart in the bank

     I don't agree that organ banks should only be non-profit.  The
use of criminals for the organ banks likely only arises in the case of
*non-profit*, government supported organ banks.  There could be some
sort of deal whereby the govt sells prisoners to for-profit organ
banks, but I think that this is far less likely.  Non-profit OB's (if
govt run) would presumably give away organs to the most needy, while
selling organs at high prices to the rich.  This has the effect of
encouraging most people to think of replacement organs as something
that they have some degree of "right" to, rather than merely something
they have to buy.  This has the result that the value of the lives
that might supply the organs are cheapened.

     Contrast this with a capitalistic approach.  Here spare organs
will be priced at exactly their value, as determined by supply and
demand.  The prices will initially be so high as to encourage many
people to sell the right to their vital organs upon their death.  This
will bring the level of legitimate supply up, and so eliminate much of
the market for organ-legged organs.  The major market that criminals
might supply would be the poor, who might be unable to afford "organ
replacement insurance" or direct purchase of organs.  This market
would have a very low profit margin, considering the rather high
overhead of surgical costs.  There might be an occasional scandal in
which organ-legged organs are sold to supposedly legitimate OB's, but
since OB's will probably be associated primarily with hospitals, and
such practices would threaten the entire hospital, the OB's are likely
to be policed by the hospitals themselves.  (It might be argued that
the poor are losing out, since they won't always be able to afford the
expensive organs - but on the other hand, the poor would be the most
likely targets for the organleggers, and there are fewer of the latter
with the for-profit OBs.)

     So, if the technology for easy organ transplants became
available, there would probably be some minor organ-legging in a
for-profit environment, but nowhere near what it would be in a
government controlled, non-profit situation (as I believe "Gil the
Arm" was in).  And furthermore, there would not be the problem of the
government sacrificing minor criminals for the sake of organ- needy
citizens.

     As for the "greed and selfishness" of mankind - I don't object to
the second at all, but "greedy" is really just a insult-word, used
mainly by people who weren't fast enough to get a piece of something.
(EG there are 3 pieces of cake, and 6 children - 3 kids get pieces,
and the others call them greedy.  A fourth piece of cake appears, and
all those that called the first 3 greedy now vie for the fourth piece
of cake - even though they would be called greedy by the remaining 2.
I view this as a form of double-think.)

        Tom Craver
        houca!trc

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 83 20:50:23-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Sci fi vs. SF

***** uicsl:net.sf-lovers / sri-arpa!ARPA / 4:20 pm Oct 3, 1983

     Why do some people get so upset when someone use the term
"Sci-Fi"?  I (and many of my friend's) think this is the sensible way
to pronounce SF. Is there some real reason not to use this term, or is
this just another one of those "real fan" things? Flame off.
(Clobberin' off?)

                           [<{(Jacob Butcher)}>]
                                   ^parenthetically speaking...

     It's just one of those "real fan" things. If it bothers you,
sometimes you can get away with it if you pronounce it "skiffy." It's
also used to "discredit" people who write articles on "Sci-Fi" as
outsiders who don't know what they're talking about.

                                      Wombat
                                      ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 83 11:10:13-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SF or Sci-Fi?

     Somebody in this group asked recently "What's so bad about saying
Sci-Fi?"  All I can say is that it's accepted practice in the
SF-reading community to reserve the term Sci-Fi for Truly Putrid
movies and books, using SF (pronounced "Ess-Eff") as the generic
abbreviation for Science Fiction.

     Sci-Fi (usually heard in the phrase "that Sci-Fi crap") has bad
implications for most of the populace: it brings to mind images of
Buck Rogers and Captain Video.  Sci-Fi means the same things to SF
fans, who use SF to refer to "the good stuff." This usage, I believe,
arose because the media tend to brand everything from "Plan 9 From
Outer Space" through "Star Wars" to President Reagan's space laser
proposal as Sci-Fi, whereas those who read a lot of the stuff and know
the good from the bad would rather use a different term for the good.

     Finally, my objections to the term Sci-Fi are semantic.  For
heaven's sake, it's not <SIGH-ents FIKE-shun>, with the FY sound from
"fire," it's <SIGH-ents FIK-shun> with the FI sound from "fish."  You
wouldn't refer to Mystery Fiction as "My-Fi" or Historical Fiction as
"Hi-Fi," would you?

--
-- David D. Levine, ECS Manuals Group (orca!davidl, x2155)

-- David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                     (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 83 0:52:14-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!israel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF or Sci-Fi?

     I know that "science fiction" is not pronounced <SIGH-ents
FIKE-shun>, but there is precedent.  After all, HI-FI is really an
abbreviation for High-Fidelity (and I don't know about you, but I
pronounce fidelity with a short "i").

--

~~~ Bruce ~~~
Computer Science Dept., University of Maryland
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel.umcp-cs@Udel-Relay (Arpanet)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1983 12:01:51-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: "sci-fi"

     I would probably get flamed at from several directions if I said
that "sci-fi" to many [serious] readers of SF has the same grating
ring as "nigger" to a [black]. That is an exaggeration, but there is a
whole complex of ignorance, frequently coated with viciousness, in the
use of the word by most [outsiders]. (This month's funny story: the
critic in the Radcliffe alumni magazine who reviewed Ursula K. Le
Guin's THE COMPASS ROSE with the usual critical idiocy about her
finally stepping out of the ghetto, only to receive tart notes from
both a recent graduate and Anne McCaffrey '47(?).

     I tend to use "SF" almost exclusively entirely \because/ of its
elasticity; "speculative fabulation" is a good description of my
almost-universal choice of reading matter.

     David Gerrold has described a definitive demonstration of the
problems and connotations of "sci-fi" in this quote from a CBS TV
executive turning down Roddenberry's proposal for STAR TREK: "We don't
need another sci-fi show; we've already got LOST IN SPACE." (Not that
ST was the greatest show that ever was or will be, but the display of
absence of any sort of critical judgment is astounding.

PS to those knowledgeable types who say that "sci-fi" was invented by
the fan commonly referred to as "Mr. Science Fiction" and is
accordingly sacred: note that Forrest J. Ackermann's latest big
project was the translated, American editions of Perry Rhodan. 'Nuff
said.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 13 Oct 83 00:24:17-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-ML.ARPA
Subject: sf or sci-fi

     My guess is that most people who (like me) cringe at the use of
"sci-fi" are not being elitists.  Rather, we are reacting to the
unfortunate use of the word in a derogatory manner by many who detest
or are not familiar with the genre.  "Sci-fi" is movies like "Godzilla
vs. the Blob" or similar dreck.  There is also the point that sci-fi,
to me, conjures up the old- fashioned, E.E. Smith kind of fiction.
Nothing wrong with that, I hasten to add [flames I don't need], just
that it fails to describe much of today's output.  One of the reasons
I prefer sf is it lacks sci-fi's derogatory connotations.  Another is
that it can be read as standing for "speculative fiction," which is
what this net is about more than science fiction (Elfquest is hardly
sci-fi, for example.  STAR WARS, on the other hand, is).  Then again,
I once saw a button at a con: FUCK ELITISM, CALL IT SPEC-FIC.

                        Janice

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 83 12:10:30-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!clyde!akgua!emory!gatech!ofut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF or Sci-Fi - sources

     The inimitable (sp?) spaf suggested that I not make claims to
knowledge of dubious correctness without sources.  My information on
the matter has been accumulated from numerous (40+) science fiction
conventions.  Rusty Hevelon, the famous huckster, has provided me with
numerous nibbles of information.  Other people of course, but due to a
severe lack of personal file management capabilities I'll leave it at
that.

     Any more doubters??

Jeff Offutt

CSNet:  Ofut @ GaTech        ARPA:   Ofut.GaTech @ UDel-Relay
uucp:   ...!{sb1,allegra,ut-ngp}!gatech!Ofut
        ...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!Ofut

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 83 16:23:37-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!floyd!clyde!akgua!emory!gatech!ofut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Sci-fi vs. SF - the forgotten reason

     Believe it or there is a real reason why people object to Sci-Fi,
though at this point it is rather historical.

     In the olden days before I was around, most of the people in this
country (and elsewhere) enjoyed maligning Sci-Fi (pronounced sciffy)
as escapist literature suitable only for children or childish adults.
These people pronounced the venerable letters Sf as sciffy with a
discernably upturned nose.  The small, very close-knit collection of
writers and SF fans who were the originators of what we now call
fandom and SF-conventions were understandably annoyed.  And if you
pronounced or spelled SF as Sci-Fi then you were one of "the others"
and an enemy.

     Now that the mainstream has excepted Sf with a passion, the
mainstream still uses Sci-Fi and pragmatists don't really mind.
Especially the authors who like the new converts money.

Jeff Offutt

CSNet:  Ofut @ GaTech           ARPA:   Ofut.GaTech @ UDel-Relay
uucp:   ...!{sb1,allegra,ut-ngp}!gatech!Ofut
        ...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!Ofut

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 83 21:26:07-EDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!trsvax!mikey @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Asimov/New Novel - (nf)

     To any who are interested, Isaac Asimov has a new robot novel.  I
believe the name will be The Robots of Dawn.  It is rumored to be a
third novel with detective Bailey, a continuation of The Caves of
Steel and The Naked Sun series.  It was supposed to be in Waldenbooks
is September for about $16.00 but hasn't shown up yet.

     >From the rumors I hear, Bailey gets sent to the planet Aurora to
investigate the murder of a robot???

     Anyone else here of this???

------------------------------

Date: 8 October 1983 02:05 EDT
From: Don M. Matheson <DMM @ MIT-ML>
Subject: Sundiver & Startide Rising

     Having just finished both of these excellent novels, I would
recommend that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should anyone read Startide
Rising first.  It makes *Many* references to events that happened in
Sundiver, and would not only be a bit confusing, but the reader would
miss half the fun.

        Cheers, DMM@MIT-ML

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 70 23:00:10-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!wivax!apollo!nazgul @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Previous works by David Brin/Startide

     Startide Rising is an excellent book.  A lot of action, some good
space battles and some good species-interaction psychology.

     My first impulse when reading it was to running out and buy
Sundiver...  an impulse that I am still trying to follow, since I
can't find anyone in the Boston area who has it.  Apparently I wasn't
the only one with that impulse!

                                            -kee

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 83 1835-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #101
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 14 Oct 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 101

Today's Topics:
                   Books - Lewis Carroll (7 msgs) &
           L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt (2 msgs) &
                    James Patrick Hogan (3 msgs) &
                           Star Trek Books,
              Film - Star Trek III:  In Search of Spock

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 06 Oct 83  2048 PDT
From: Hans Moravec <HPM@S1-A>
Subject: Six impossible things

     From "Through the Looking Glass (and what Alice found there)" by
Lewis Carroll (aka Charles Dodgson), copyright 1896, chapter 5 (Wool
and Water) about sixth page:

Conversation between Alice and the White Queen

"... Let's consider your age to begin with -- how old are you? '
  I'm seven and a half, exactly.
  You needn't say 'exactly', the Queen remarked.  I can believe it
without that.  Now I'll give you something to believe.  I'm just
one hundred and one, five months and a day.
  I can't believe that! said Alice.
  Can't you?  the Queen said in a pitying tone.  Try again: draw a
long breath and shut your eyes.
  Alice laughed.  There's no use trying, she said:  one can't believe
impossible things.
  I daresay you haven't had much practice, said the Queen.  When I was
your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day.  Why, sometimes I've
believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!
There goes the shawl again!"

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1983  9:26:28 EDT (Friday)
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Impossible Breakfast Things

     The source of the comment on believing many impossible things
before breakfast is Lewis Carroll ALICE IN WONDERLAND/THROUGH THE
LOOKING GLASS, and I'll let somebody else supply the precise location
and text.  Given what's being sold in fast food places these days,
you've got to believe them during breakfast...

Unbelievably yours,

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 10:00:57 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: "six impossible things before breakfast"

     The phrase is from "Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice
Found There".  The Red Queen is speaking with Alice and has given her
some particularly nonsensical piece of wisdom (or wise piece of
nonsense) which she has trouble believing.  The Queen's response to
Alice's balking is "Why, I sometimes believe as many as six impossible
things before breakfast."

     This is all from memory, so, please, don't tell me it's actually
"five" or some such quibble.

     More importantly, if there is anyone reading this message who has
not read one or the other of the Alice books, I recommend, nay,
insist, that you head for the nearest bookstore/library and get copies
of "Alice in Wonderland" and "Through the Looking-Glass".  This is not
given in the same sort of nostalgia that, say, reminiscences of the
Mushroom Planet books are given.  These two works are important pieces
of the cultural heritage of Western Civilization.  Lewis Carroll was a
pseudonym for the Reverend Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, who was an Oxford
mathematician.  After you've read the books through at least once, go
find a copy of Martin Gardner's "Annotated Alice", wherein he
discusses the mathematical and logical underpinnings of the stories,
as well as pointing out some puns, etc., that the Victorian reader
would have gotten but may well have escaped you.

     "Alice uber Alles!"

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  7 Oct 1983 13:50-PDT
Subject: Six impossible things (SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #96)
From: greep@SU-DSN

The White Queen used this phrase.

"I can't believe *that*!, said Alice.

     "Can't you?" the Queen said in pitying tone.  "Try again: draw a
long breath, and shut your eyes."

     "Alice laughed.  "There's no use trying," she said, "one *can't*
believe impossible things."

     "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen.  "When
I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day.  Why,
sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before
breakfast."

This is from the chapter entitled "Wool and water".     - greep

------------------------------

Date: Thu 13 Oct 83 00:19:19-EDT
From: MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-ML.ARPA
Subject: re: Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast

     Ye gods above and below!  Is it truly possible that none among
you sf and fantasy books have read ALICE IN WONDERLAND and THROUGH THE
LOOKING GLASS, two absolute classics??  "Six impossible things before
breakfast" comes from LOOKING GLASS.  The White Queen (a chess piece,
and a rather flighty one at that) asks Alice to believe something
impossible.  (Unfortunately, I can't quote exactly.)  Alice, a very
literal-minded girl, says that one can't believe impossible things.
The White Queen replies, approximately, "Nonsense!  I make it a habit
each morning to believe six impossible things before breakfast!"  She
goes on to explain that it is good mental exercise.

     I heartily recommend both books, especially since they are source
material for much present-day fantasy and sf.  THROUGH THE LOOKING
GLASS is particularly appealing, since the book is a chess game (yes,
one can actually follow the moves on a board, although Carroll
occasionally stretches [breaks] the rules for story purposes).

                                Janice

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 83 18:43:12-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!utah-cs!shebs @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Six impossible things

     Believing six impossible things at once is sometimes necessary
for debugging, so you can find the seventh thing that explains it
all...

              stan ("Rarely debugs before breakfast") the l.h.
              utah-cs!shebs

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1983 10:34:07 EDT (Thursday)
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: 6 impossible things before breakfast

     Anyone (TV writers or whatever) referring to doing "6 impossible
things before breakfast" is not particularly likely to be familiar
with Douglas Adam's works.  More likely just to be literate, and be
familiar with one of the best known books (not to mention one of the
best known fantasies) in the English language: "Through the Looking
Glass" (which is slightly less well-known by title than its
predecessor "Alice in Wonderland").  When Alice is talking with the
Red Queen (I think; could be White), she complains about not being
able to BELIEVE impossible things, at which the queen claims to
believe six impossible things before breakfast.  I must confess to
being one of those awful people who have read Lord of the Rings once
-- I enjoyed it, but just never felt that a re-reading would yield
enough rewards-- but I read the Alice books at least once a year.

                              Morris Keesan
                              keesan@BBN-UNIX.ARPA
                              ...!decvax!bbncca!keesan (UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 83 7:33:06-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!seismo!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Compleat Enchanter, Wall of Serpents, etc

     Ok, I just dug out my copy of The Compleat Enchanter, by L.
Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, copyright (c) 1975 by L. Sprague De
Camp.  >From the ACKNOWLEDGMENTS (on copyright page):

     THE INCOMPLETE ENCHANTER (including "The Roaring Trumpet" and
"The Mathematics of Magic") copyright (c) 1941 by Henry Holt and
Company.  A somewhat different form of this novel appeared in the May
and August 1940 issues of Unknown, copyright (c) by Street &
Smith, Inc.

THE CASTLE OF IRON Copyright (c) 1941 by Street & Smith, Inc for
Unknown, April 1941.

     Book Club Edition:  December 1975

     First Ballantine Books Edition: April 1976 Third Printing: June
1980

     First Canadian Printing: May 1976

     According to the Afterword, the three stories mentioned above
were the first three written by de Camp and Pratt concerning Harold
Shea.  The Castle of Iron was originally a novella, but extended to
novel length after Holt published The Incomplete Enchanter.  They also
wrote two more stories, The Wall of Serpents and The Green Magician.
These were published in a cloth-bound edition, probably in the 1950s.

     There are no "other books" listed in the front, so I suppose that
at the time my copy was printed (1980), Ballantine had reprinted
neither The Wall of Serpents nor The Green Magician.  Does
anyone know if they have been reprinted in any form since the cloth-
bound edition?  I'd like to read them!

-- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci UUCP:
{seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA:
chris.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 19:20:01-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Wall of Serpents, other matters - (nf)

     Wall of Serpents was reissued by Phantasia Press, not Owlswick.

                        Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 83 16:04:57-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!cmcl2!ofut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading - Hogan

     To extend the recent plug for Hogans "Voyage From Yesteryear",
I'd recommend any and all of his books to any and all scientists.
Though not Clarke, he has enough general knowledge of science to
convince the most discerning of audiences.  His book on a truly
intelligent machine ("The Adolescence of P1", if I'm not confusing my
authors) was especially enjoyable and is even almost reasonable.

--
Jeff Offutt

CSNet:  Ofut @ GaTech           ARPA:   Ofut.GaTech @ UDel-Relay
uucp:   ...!{sb1,allegra,ut-ngp}!gatech!Ofut
        ...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!Ofut

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 18:26:23-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!israel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading - Hogan

     I enjoyed a scene where one of the AI researchers was showing a
visitor the reasoning system his research group was developing.  It
was in the sub-world of a kitchen.  The researcher explained that the
computer program was trying to fry an egg; a task it had never done
before.  It was learning through a combination of experience and
instruction when it needed it.  It had recently learned that it must
open the cabinet door to take the frying pan out of the cabinet (or
maybe it was unwrapping the butter before cutting off a slice; I
forget).  Anyway, as the visitor watches the program makes it past
this major hurdle, gets an egg out of refrigerator, and then places
the egg carefully into the center of the frying pan.  The AI
researcher groans with frustration.

     This is quite a difference from your standard AI in SF, which is
about the same level as your '50's SF which has one lone scientist in
his basement develop and build the technology necessary for the first
manned flight to the moon (or Mars, or Sirius ...).

     The above is my major complaint about "The Adolescence of P1".
While I felt that it was a very well written book (it has some great
scenes with characters learning about computers in college, and then
turning into hackers and skipping classes to hack), I ended up not
finishing it because I couldn't get over some of the abysmal
technology.

     The major plot of tAoP is that this guy writes a simple learning
program, and then sets it off to learn to be a syscracker by finding
computers (thru telephones and direct connections) and breaking into
them.  The programs main goal was to accumulate the super-user
privileges on as many systems as possible.  Now, I can deal with that,
but what I had a hard time with, was that about a year after the guy
set his program off, it contacted him!  It seems that P1 not only
accumulated many thousands of computers in that time, but also learned
english, developed intelligence, learned a lot of the common-sense
information that we take for granted, and figured out who its creator
is and how to contact him!

     Anyway, if you don't get upset by egregiously fallacious AI, you
will probably enjoy it.

~~~ Bruce ~~~
Computer Science Dept., University of Maryland
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel.umcp-cs@Udel-Relay (Arpanet)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 83 11:05:34-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!clyde!akgua!emory!gatech!ofut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Hogans super-computer novel, correction please

     Please forgive my clumsy fingers, James Hogan wrote a novel
called "The Two Faces of Tomorrow".  It is a truly outstanding book
about a super-intelligent computer.

     Mr. Hogan has also written:

                         "Thrice Upon a Time"
                            "Giants' Star"
                          "Genesis Machine"
                     "Gentle Giants of Ganymede"
                         "Inherit the Stars"

     I'll vouch for all but the gentle giants which I haven't been
lucky enough to read as yet.

     "The Adolescence of P1" was written by Thomas J. Ryan.

--
Jeff Offutt

CSNet:  Ofut @ GaTech           ARPA:   Ofut.GaTech @ UDel-Relay
uucp:   ...!{sb1,allegra,ut-ngp}!gatech!Ofut
        ...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!Ofut

------------------------------

Subject: Star Trek Fiction
From: Alan L. Zeichick-<g.maine=zeichick@berkeley>
Date: October 9, 1983

     This I hope to be a comprehensive listing of all true published
Star Trek fiction.  I'm deliberately not including photo-novels and
the like; I'm only interested in genuine novels and short stories.  If
anyone knows of any that I've missed, please let me know.


Blish, James                      Spock Must Die!
Blish, James & Lawrence, J.A.     Star Trek 1 - 12

Cogswell, T. & Spano, C.          Spock, Messiah!

Cooper, Sonni                     Black Fire

Correy, Lee                       The Abode of Life

Crispin, A.E.                     Yesterday's Son

Eklund, Gordon                    Devil World
Eklund, Gordon                    The Starless World

Foster, Alan Dean                 Star Trek Log 1 - 10

Gerrold, David                    The Galactic Whirlpool

Goldin, Stephen                   Trek to Madworld

Haldeman II, Jack C.              Perry's Planet

Haldeman, Joe                     Planet of Judgment
Haldeman, Joe                     World Without End

Lawrence, J.A.                    Mudd's Angels

Marshak, S. & Culbreath, M.       The Fate of the Phoenix
Marshak, S. & Culbreath, M.       The New Yoyages 1 & 2
Marshak, S. & Culbreath, M.       The Price of the Phoenix
Marshak, S. & Culbreath, M.       The Prometheus Design
Marshak, S. & Culbreath, M.       Triangle

McIntyre, Vonda N.                Star Trek The Wrath of Kahn
McIntyre, Vonda N.                The Entropy Effect

Murdock, M.S.                     Web of the Romulans

Reynolds, Mack                    Mission to Horatius

Roddenberry, Gene                 Star Trek The Motion Picture

Sky, Kathleen                     Death's Angel
Sky, Kathleen                     Vulcan!

Vardeman, Robert E.               Mutiny on the Enterprise
Vardeman, Robert E.               The Klingon Gambit

Weinstein, Howard                 The Covenent of the Crown

Happy Reading!
              Alan L. Zeichick (g.maine=zeichick@berkeley)

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 10 October 1983, 15:25-PDT
From: cwr%SCRC-Tenex@MIT-MC
Subject: Kruge

"Date: 06 Oct 83 11:30:06 PDT (Thu)
"From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet.uci@Rand-Relay>
"Subject: Star Trek III news

     "According to the L.A. Times, Christopher Lloyd ("Taxi") will
play a villain named Kruge (rhymes with Scrooge, I suppose) in STIII.
The spokesman from whom this tidbit came was quoted as saying about
Kruge: "I can't tell you anything else about him except he's
<<mean>>.""

     Kruge rhymes with "Moog".  I can tell you something else: not
only is he *mean*, he's got bumps on his head.

  -c

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Oct 83 1727-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #102
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Oct 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 102

Today's Topics:
  Books - Groff Conklin & Philip K. Dick & A. J. Deutsch (4 msgs) &
      Spider Robinson & Norman Spinrad (3 msgs) & Roger Zelazny,
         Discussion - SF for Adolescents and Others (2 msgs),
                      News - Latest from Locus,
         Comments - Private Spending vs. Government Spending

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 83 8:12:55-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxn!ttb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Groff Conklin

     "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch was indeed in the
Omnibus of Science Fiction, one of the four greatest SF anthologies
ever produced.  They were:

               Big Book of Science Fiction
               Treasury of Science Fiction
               Best of Science Fiction
               Omnibus of Science Fiction

     All were edited by Groff Conklin and published in the late 40's
and early 50's. HOWEVER!! The Omnibus of Science Fiction was reprinted
in 1980 by Bonanza Books of N.Y. If you can find any of the above you
have a treat in store.

                           Tom Butler
                           ..!ihnp4!ihuxn!ttb

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 83 20:04:26 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: V8 #95  Death of P.K. Dick

     Philip K. Dick died at the age of 53 from a stroke.  This was in
February or March of 1982.  Read this in TIME, March 15th, 1982.

ds

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1983  10:30 EDT (Fri)
From: Stephen R. Balzac <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Subway named Mobius

     A Subway called Mobius can be found in a recent anthology by
Asimov and his wife, Janet Jeppson.  I don't remember who wrote the
story, but I can check if anyone is interested.

------------------------------

Date: 07 Oct 83 08:50:43 PDT (Fri)
From: Jim Hester <hester.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Subway named Mobius

     The author of the story about a subway with strange topological
properties was A. J. Deutsch.  It was printed in: Astounding Science
Fiction, December 1950 Where Do We Go from Here? (ed. by Isaac Asimov)
The Omnibus of Science Fiction (ed. by Groff Conklin) and probably
others I don't know about.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 83 19:43:57-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hound!rfg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: A Subway Named Mobius

     "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch Copyright 1950 by Street
and Smith Publications, Inc. from *Astounding* (naturally) December,
1950.

hound!rfg

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 13:06:14-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!cbosgd!qusavx!brian @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Subway named Mobius

     I remember the story also. It was a really good idea.  I read it
in a book I bought in Britain which was a collection of sf stories. If
I remember rightly there was also one in the book called "Highway J"
which was about time travel.

     I think the book was called "10 years of science fiction".
(There was some number in the title.. probably wasn't 10!).  Sorry..
don't know who the author was!.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 83 7:03:55-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson

     At Worldcon, Spider said that he has signed a contract for a new
Callahan's book. No release date was given. He is also working on a
novel titled "Race War" (I think), which involves the takeover of
Manhattan by black militants. This one he said he is having problems
with, and is probably at least a year or two from release.

     At the Worldcon he read a chapter from "Mindkiller" which must be
one of the funniest sex scenes ever written and at the same time one
of the most touching. It should be out in paperback soon, and based on
the chapter, I would heartily recommend it.

--
                                  eric
                                  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 83 9:18:07-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!seismo!rlgvax!tom @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Norman Spinrad

     I just saw a reference to an excellent Spinrad short story titled
"Carcinoma Angels".  I read this in a collection of Spinrad short
stories, titled, I think, "Last Hurrah of the Golden Horde", after
another story in the book.  I enjoyed LHofGH quite a bit, (note: in
other stories, particularly novels, Spinrad is a bit violent and
shock-prone) but have been unable to find this book again, nor have I
found the short story in any other book, though I've looked.

     Any help, anyone?

     Has anyone read his compilation on the History of Science Fiction
(I forgot the title, similar to the previous phrase, though I think he
avoided the dangerous term "science fiction").  I thought it was an
excellent collection spanning the '40s, 50's and I think '60s, and
with worthwhile editorial comment.  A good book for a course, I
thought.

- Tom Beres
{seismo, allegra, mcnc, brl-bmd, we13, gatech}!rlgvax!tom

------------------------------

Date: Mon 10 Oct 83 12:17:42-EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Spinrad, etc.

     "Carcinoma Angels" appeared initially in Ellison's first
Dangerous Visions collection. Spinrad wrote the notorious "The Iron
Dream", a pastische of heroic science fantasy as written by Adolph
Hitler. Most recently Spinrad has written an excellent novel of a
future war between the sexes, "A World Between", which I highly
recommend.

David Lewin

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 83 09:19:13 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Hoffman.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Spinrad's "Carcinoma Angels"

     In V8 #97, Tom Beres asked for help in tracking down Norman
Spinrad's story "Carcinoma Angels".  It's in the original "Dangerous
Visions" collection edited by Harlan Ellison.

--Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 17:58:59-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!israel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny

     I saw the LOCUS blurb, but it didn't say much.  Basically, it
said that he signed a contract to write three new Amber books, the
first is supposed to come out next October, and they are NOT a
continuation of the story from "Courts of Chaos", but instead are set
far in the future from CoC with a new story, and there may be some
characters who were in the first five books.

     Personally, I'm very much looking forward to these next books.  I
am worried, however, that these books are not at the same level of
quality as was "Courts of Chaos".  I loved the Amber series, but I was
extremely disappointed with the last book.  The last book just seemed
like a travelogue of Corwin's journey cross Shadow, and about as
interesting as one.  Ah, well...

~~~ Bruce ~~~
Computer Science Dept., University of Maryland
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel.umcp-cs@Udel-Relay (Arpanet)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 83 15:59:13-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!rene @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF & juveniles

     Oddly enough, one of my early SF books was 'Stranger in a Strange
Land', or rather, the first half of it. It took me several tries (and
several years) to get past the political meeting in the middle where
Smith is declared ambassador of Mars, etc. I really enjoyed the first
half, though, as well as other of Heinlein's books, such as 'The
Puppet Masters', 'Waldo', 'Magic, Inc.', 'Door into Summer', etc.

                                        - rene

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 22:13:04-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: More youngly orientated science fict - (nf)

     Now that I think about it, my first SF novel was "The Dueling
Machine" by Ben Bova.  Easy to get into, interesting twists.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 11:51:36-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Latest from LOCUS

     Here are the October LOCUS offerings.  Subscriptions are:

$21 12 issues       for individuals in the U.S.     second class mail
$39 24 issues        "    "  "  "    "  "   "       second class mail
$23 12              Canadians       (in $US)        second class mail
$43 24                "  "                          second class mail
$28 12              U.S. or Canada                  first class
$53 24

     You can subscribe by mailing to:

        LOCUS Publications
        P.O. Box 13305
        Oakland, CA 94661

---------------------------------------------------------------------

     Frank Herbert signed a multi-million dollar contract with Putnam
for DUNE VI.

     Zelazny has signed on for 3 more novels set in the Amber
universe.  These do not follow from Courts of Chaos but are set in a
later time.  Some characters carry over.  [sgp - Anyone wanna place
bets on who?].  He is also writing a "Berserker" story for a
collection being edited by Saberhagen.

     Shooting has begun on Star Trek III with Leonard Nimoy directing.

     Christopher Tolkien is digging out even more stuff from garages
and places.  Look for THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, VOLUME I early next year
and THE MONSTERS AND CRITICS AND OTHER ESSAYS next spring.

     There is a full-page ad for ON A PALE HORSE: Book One of
INCARNATIONS IN IMMORTALITY by Piers Anthony.  Later there is a
full-page ad which tells us that DRAGON ON A PEDESTAL (a new Xanth
book) is out for October.  [sgp - Any reviews yet?]

     Joe Haldeman's WAR YEARS is due out for April

     Piers Anthony's BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT, Volume II: MERCENARY is
due in June [sgp - No stopping him, eh?]

     David Brin's THE PRACTICE EFFECT is for April.

     Robert Silverberg's VALENTINE PONTIFEX is due as a paperback next
fall.

     A.E. van Vogt's COMPUTERWORLD is due out in November.

     There is a full-page ad for Robert Silverberg's ACROSS A BILLION
YEARS and it is due in December.

------------------------------------------------------------------

     That's as much as I can bring myself to type for now.  Go out and
buy your own LOCUS.  It is only $2.25 and well worth the price.
Better, subscribe!

     If I am slighting your favourite author it is probably because I
don't like him/her/them/it or else /he/she/they are dead.  One of
these is correctable.

--

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Group    University of Toronto
Usenet:     {linus, ihnp4, allegra, decvax, floyd}!utcsrgv!perelgut
ARPA:       utcsrgv!perelgut@UW-BEAVER

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 5:45:03-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!hogpc!houca!trc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: E9 - private spacing vs govt

Response to R.E. Maas -  Space station politics and $1E9

     I don't agree that the government had to run the space effort
just because it was too big for the private sector.  If the space
effort had really been worth it, a corporation could have been formed
to exploit space, and at far less than $1E9.  In fact, there have been
quite a few private ventures - starting with Goddard, I suppose.  My
point is, if something is really worth doing, either for profit or for
scientific reasons, it can usually get voluntary support in the
private sector.  The only advantage the government has over the
private sector is that it can force people to give it money to do
things they don't really care to have done.  If you don't believe that
people really wanted space sufficiently enough to support it in the
private sector, you are really saying that you want the government to
force your opinion that it *is* important on all those other people.
The fact that you might be right doesn't justify using force - in
fact, the fact that you are right would make it even worse, since you
should be able to convince people to do what you want voluntarily.

     In fact, the L5-society alone could probably put together an
impressive corporation from its members.  And I presume that there is
an equal number of others like me out there that are interested, but
not members of "L5".  I've often wished there were some sort of
corporation that would seek to establish a space project (lunar base,
L5-colony, etc) that I could invest in.  It would be a terrific risk,
but at least something would be getting done.  If nothing else, it
could sponsor research into space technology, with an eye towards
grabbing up some basic patents, that it could later sell to the better
capitalized corporations when they move out into space in a big way.
It would take 100-10000 investors with $1000 each.

        I've got my $1000 ready...
        Tom Craver
        houca!trc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 83 1505-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #103
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 22 Oct 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 103

Today's Topics:
               Administrivia - Marriage and the Digest,
     Mixed Messages - A. J. Deutsch and Norman Spinrad (1 msg) &
   Alan Garner and James Schmitz and Adolescent Books and L. Sprage
  de Camp and Fletcher Pratt and the Brothers Sturgatsky (1 msg) and
          Harlan Ellison and Ben Bova and Douglas Adams and
                  "The Lord's Pink Ocean" (1 msg) &
              Lewis Carroll and "Death Watch" (1 msg) &
          Subscriber Query and Wizards and Warriors (1 msg)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 83 15:02:50 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Administrivia

     Dear All:

     1.  I am getting married tomorrow.  I will then be leaving for a
         week's worth of honeymoon/vacation.

     2.  In order to maintain some continuity, I have asked Charles
         McGrew, Moderator of HUMAN-NETS to take care of SF-LOVERS for
         the week. He will be sending out the digests, updating the
         distribution list, etc.

     3.  See you all in a week!

Take care,

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Subject: A Subway Named Mobius
From: Alan L. Zeichick-<g.maine=zeichick@berkeley>
Date: October 7, 1983

     I've not heard of that story in a while!  I don't recall what
magazine it was in, but it was anthologized in an old book called
'Omnibus of Science Fiction'.  That book, which is at least 20 years
old, is probably one of the best I know of that contains 'Golden Age'
sci-fi; unfortunately I lost my copy years ago.  A Subway Named Mobius
is only one of the excellent stories in it; if anyone knows of a
paperbound copy of that anthology, please let me know.

     'Carcinoma Angels'--I read it in 'Last Hurrah' also, though I
don't think the anthology was purely Spinrad.  I have lost that book
too--what's going on here?

-alan-

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1983 20:20:45-PDT
From: stever at cit-vax
Subject: followup

     My apologies.  Eliador and Owl Service (also by Alan Garner) are
not in the same series as Weirdstone ...  and Moon ...

     James Schmitz books I missed are 'Lion's Game' which I forgot and
'The Legacy' which I've yet to locate a copy of.  The Gene Wolfe book
I missed is 'Gene Wolfe's Book of Days'.  Read this book, or at least
read the introduction.  This book has the best introduction of any I
have ever read.

     Mathew Looney, Runaway Robot and Wonderful Flight have been
seething to be remembered for the last n years.  Thank you all.

     I have seen the two Shea stories (by DeCamp & Pratt) that were
omitted from The Complete Enchanter reprinted in a rag called
'The Dragon' about five years ago.

     Is it true that none of you have been reading the Sturgatski
books?  'Hard to be a God', 'Roadside Picnic' and 'Definitely Maybe'
are the best.

                                   Steve

------------------------------

Date: 7 October 1983 23:26 edt
From: Bergman.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Odds & Ends

     The version of the Starcrossed that I read was a hardcover in the
library, and had a review/teaser/blurb by Harlan Ellison.  I didn't
like the book much, but found the blurb very amusing, and worth
searching out for those of you who are interested in Harlan.

     On an unrelated topic, the phrase "believe <n> impossible things
before breakfast has been around a lot longer than Adams, let alone
HHGttG.  <n> is usually 6 or 7.  I believe it does have an
identifiable author, there is a particular use of it floating around
in the back of my head, being very reluctant to come into the light.
I may have to go dig up a copy of Mary Poppins to set my mind at rest.
I believe she (or some similar character in a different book) cites
believing six (or 7) impossible things before breakfast as being the
secret to youth, or mental agility, or some such.

     Has any one else read "The Lord's Pink Ocean"?  I don't recall
the author's name.  It is an after-the-holocaust story, and I recall
it as being very disturbing.

--mike
bergman.softarts@mit-multics

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1983 11:25:14 EDT
From: AXLER@Upenn-1100 (David M. Axler)
Subject: Miscellany from Recent Issues and the Future

     1) "...six impossible things before breakfast."  If memory serves
me well, this comes from one of the "Alice" books by Lewis Carroll.  I
think, in fact, it's part of the conversation that Alice has near the
end of 'Through the Looking Glass' with one of the Queens.

     2) "Death Watch": This recent film, starring Roy Schneider and
Harvey Keitel, should be of interest to SFL readers.  Though I haven't
seen it mentioned anywhere in the trade press, it's actually a movie
adaptation of D. G. Compton's novel "The Unsleeping Eye" (also
released as "The Continuous Katherine Mortonhoe" in England).  Compton
is a British author who is fairly unknown in the States; back in the
early 70's, a number of his books came out in Ace editions, and then
they disappeared.  His work is pretty good, and well worth reading if
you can find it.  He tends to set the novels in the near future in
order to look at possible effects of contemporary trends, with a focus
on personal relationships.

     The film deals with the relationship that grows between two
individuals.  One is a woman in her 40s who is stricken with terminal
cancer in a world where almost all disease and illness have been
eliminated; the other is a news reporter who has had one eye replaced
with a miniaturized TV camera.  His assignment: report on her behavior
as death approaches, without her even knowing of the camera.  An
interesting premise that has several potential endings.  Go see the
film if you want to know more.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1983 14:16-PDT
Subject: lost subscriber & Wizards & Warriors
From: BarryGold (WEISSMAN@USC-ISI)

     Ron Jarrell is (or used to be) a subscriber to this mailing list.
He was also receiving the Wizards and Warriors unofficial
continuation.  The last address I have for him is either
Jarrell.Advisor%HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS at CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS (derived
from the last mesage received from him), or Jarrell.Advisor%pco at
CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS (suggested by postmaster at
CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS).

     CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS has not responded to any kind of connection
in several weeks.  I would appreciate it if anyone knowing a usable
mail address for Jarrell (ARPA/MILNET OR usenet) would kindly inform
me.

     Those who have been reading W&W by FTP are probably aware of the
recent lossage at MC.  I am trying to arrange somewhere else to store
the installments for public access.  (There are now 10 installments of
the unauthorized future history completed.)

----------Barry Gold

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 83 0452-EDT
From: Charles McGrew(The Substitute Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #104
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 25 Oct 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 104

Today's Topics:
            Discussion - SF as Great Literature (9 msgs),
               Books - Thomas Covenant Series (2 msgs),
                    Television - Dr. Who (4 msgs),
                     Movies - Foundation movies?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 11:14:00 PDT (Friday)
From: Haynes.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: SF as Great Literature

     Much as I like Silverlock, I don't think it is "great
literature".  A "great work of "contemporary" fantasy" maybe, but it
is derivative after all.  It is clever, entertaining, engrossing, and
great fun, but it is not "great literature", which is what this
discussion started about.

        -- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 83 4:27:08-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!zehntel!berry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Merit Survey Results and a new t - (nf)

     In the last days of the much lamented magazine Galaxy, they
published a "story" that was the most blatant rip-off of Star Wars I
have ever seen.  This piece of dreck was appallingly bad!  I remember
thinking that it was{ do bad that not only could I do better, but so
could my cat!  I'm afraid I can't (won't) recall the name and author,
but it was in one of the last 3 or four issues they published.  At
least I can take refuge in the thought that the perpetrator of this
trash probably never got paid for it.

     Speaking of Galaxy, they still owe me 9 issues.....

Berry Kercheval  Zehntel Inc. (decvax!sytek!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 8:40:47-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!rene @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Merit survey additions

     I will argue about 'Silverlock' being a terrific book. Sure, it
was fun seeing all those different people from famous stories,
mythology, etc., but I happen to like protagonists with a little more
guts, backbone, personality, etc. The "hero" was thrown from situation
to situation, and never managed to solve things on his own - he had to
be rescued! He didn't grow, or change, he was just a helpless 'mansel
in distress.' Bah! What a boring, frustrating protagonist. I kept
wanting him to DO something.

                                        - rene

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 83 8:35:51-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxa!gek @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re:The Merit of Silverlock

     Oh, come now, nominating SILVERLOCK as a great work?! I realize
that Pournelle and other very admirable authors swear by this book,
but I guess nobody's perfect... The work is derivative and poorly
developed.  If Meyers' purpose was to write a travelogue, it is a
diluted and weakly executed rip-off of Gulliver's Travels (imitation
is the sincerest form of flattery only if competently done). If Meyers
was trying to show a growth of Silverlock's character, he stopped
writing the book to soon; read Panshin's Rite of Passage for a proper
treatment.  Pournelle and Niven's Inferno show Meyers-squared how to
emulate a great work and still be a creditable work in its own right.

     To be fair, let me state my own nomination so as to let others
flame me: Stephen Donaldson's two Thomas Covenant series are great
(take that!).

Glenn Kapetansky ihnp4!gek

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 83 12:09:10-PDT (Sat)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Merit Survey Results

     This is directed at the guy who started this survey and
 is complaining about apathy.

     Well, I for one tried many, many times to mail my entries to him
but each time my response ended up in dead.letter.  I just wonder if
this is a common problem.  I for one am a person who loves to read
net.sf-lovers, but has a minimal knowledge of the inner workings of
Unix.  You can't blame me if I can't seem to get mail through this
system.  And if you do want to blame me then I suggest you submit an
article telling all us news readers just how to respond to your
queries.

                        D. Bartholomew

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 83 23:55:01-PDT (Sat)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: More SF & F Merit Comments - (nf)

     I am also guilty of not answering the Merit Survey, but as others
I do have something to say on the subject now.

     First, I am not sure if Douglas Adams should be on there.  Don't
flame me because I did read and enjoy all of his books but I would not
class them with Tolkien, Asimov, Clarke, et al.  I just don't think
that they are works of art as far as SF & F are concerned.  Still, I
would NOT be disappointed if the test of time proves me wrong on this
one.

     Secondly (I'm a big fan of the test of time), why wasn't "The
Hobbit" included.  Certainly this is a classic of Fantasy (even if it
is geared more toward children).  And it has stood the test of time.

                                        Mary

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 83 23:54:34-PDT (Sat)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Merit Survey Results - (nf)

     I didn't know that there were humans alive that have read "The
Lord of the Rings" only once.  I know of many people who haven't read
it, and I know of many people who have read it nth times, but ONLY
ONCE.  (I've been under the impression that after the first time --
you're HOOKED).  I've probably read it about once every year or year
and a half since the first time.  I truly enjoy Middle Earth and find
it a great place to take a vacation when you can't afford the gas or
hotel bills to go anywhere else.

                                        Mary

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 83 17:56:07 EDT
From: SOMMERS@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: Classics

     I did not mean to say that Moby Dick and War and Peace are not of
lasting literary merit (although I have reservations about War and
Peace, a book I hated).  Moby Dick is and always will be a major work,
it changed the way people perceived the world around them and
continues to influence and educate readers and writers.

     What I disagree with is the almost sole use of these two
nineteenth century books as examples of literary merit.  This is the
same philosophy that has put Victorian pot-boilers on "Great
Bookshelves".  It has led to two general beliefs

        1) that a book must be long and dense to be good
        2) that a book that is long and dense is good.

     Using this value system, we can easily find an sf classic -
Star-Maker by Olaf Stapledon.

     Classics should be classified as "books people continue to
enjoy", books of great literary merit are almost self-defining.  If I
was going to look for classical sf of great literary merit, I would
probably wish to compare the books and STORIES to such works as

                                Medea
                               Candide
                            Metamorphosis
                        Bartelby The Scrivener
                       For Whom The Bell Tolls
                             Frankenstein
                          John Brown's Body

Flame off

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 83 7:49:34-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!cires!nbires!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: John Quartermain's of V8 #95

Replying to:

"[list of allegedly good sources of titles...] ... Any of these are
more reliable than an sf-lovers poll."

What in Yafa's name do you mean by that??  Do you mean that the
opinions of sf-lovers are somehow of less "merit" than the other
sources you named?  Do you mean that sf-lovers will give spurious and
useless suggestions?

     I like the clever way you:

     a) ignore what value any of the "allegedly good sources of
        titles" might have;

     b) imply that all sources of information are of equal merit;

     c) spell my name wrong (it *was* right there in front of your
        face, you know).

     I certainly do mean to say that a poll in sf-lovers is of less
merit than the other sources I mentioned.  If you want to know why,
you might *try* some of the other sources and see for yourself.  You
might not agree, but then at least you would have some basis for an
argument.

     There has been some good stuff in sf-lovers lately (the David
Brin and John Shirley recommendations, for instance), and people do
post occasional news from Locus there.  However, there is still a lot
of pointless discussion of the latest media hype, especially movies.
Seems like net.books was formed as a reaction to the current nature of
net.sf-lovers, so I can't be the only one with this sort of opinion.

-- John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq, jsq@ut-sally.{ARPA,UUCP}

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 83 14:32:23-PDT (Sun)
From: pur-ee!kechkayl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: re:The Merit of Silverlock - (nf)

     Fine, put on your asbestos garments, here it comes!

<* FLAME ON *>

     The Thomas Covenant series GREAT??? I have never read such an
overly verbose, dry, BORING, series in all my life! I will admit that
the overall idea was interesting, but it really did NOT need SIX books
to put the points across. The six books would have been much better if
Donaldson had written them, sat down and thought about them, and then
edited about 1/2 of it out!

<* FLAME OFF *>

                           Sorry about that, but I really
                           hated Thomas Covenant. He shares
                           my name . . . .

                                   Thomas Ruschak

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 83 20:48:41-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: re:The Merit of Silverlock - (nf)

     We've been thru the trashing and defense of the Covenant
trilogies before...

     Let's see if history won't repeat itself, just this once...

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 83 11:15:15-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Query for Whoites

     Has anybody found out more about the new Dr. Who (Colin Baker)?

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 83 2:29:53-PDT (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!gillono @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who

     I was under the impression that the Doctor's TARDIS had the
ability to change shape at one time, but the critical piece of
hardware had ceased to function long ago. He simply never fixed it.  I
believe the Doctor makes a reference to this in some episode. I can't
remember which one, but I think Sarah was his companion at the time.
Remember, the Doctor's TARDIS is old and outdated by the time lord's
standards. I could be wrong, but if anyone else out there can shed
some light on the matter I'd be interested.

                                        jfg

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 83 7:43:05-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!daemon @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Doctor's TARDIS and shape changing......

From: Ed Featherston  HL01-1/P06  225-5241 <roll::featherston>

     I believe the TARDIS once did have the capability to shape change
as the Master's does, but something in it broke, causing it to be
stuck in the Police Box shape.

     Wasn't one of the reason's the Doctor went to Logopolis ( the
final episodes with Tom Baker ), to get that part of the TARDIS
repaired?

                      /ed featherston/

              Mail address : ...decvax!rhea!roll!featherston

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 83 16:30:36-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!duke!nlt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: chameleon circuits and other trivia

     I hate to be picky, but I can't let Carole Zeichick's article
pass without comment.  First, it is stated that:

     "The Doctor's [TARDIS] never 'jammed' into the shape of a police
box, but was designed to be like that."

     No, the Doctor's TARDIS, like the Master's, is supposed to be
able to change shape.  Or so the Doctor tells Adric in "Logopolis", if
I remember correctly.  And didn't they go to Logopolis in order to
have the "chameleon circuit" repaired?

     Second, it is stated that:

     "the Doctor is 900 years old, not 750!"

     The only number I've heard given for the Doctor's age is 749.  I
think that number is given in two separate episodes, but the only
definite reference I can give at the moment is from "The Brain of
Morbius": As the members of the Sisterhood are threatening the
Doctor's death, he protests, "But I'm only seven hundred and
forty-nine!  Life doesn't begin until seven hundred and ..."  I
suppose he's aged since then, but 150 years is a little much.

     And last, to end on a little more constructive note, I have
finally seen the episode (are there others?) in which Colin Baker
makes his appearance as a "bad guy".  It's "Arc of Infinity"; watch
for him in the role of Commander Maxil.  I have trouble imagining him
as the Doctor, but then Maxil is hardly a challenging character to
play, and I doubt that I've seen the full range of Baker's skill at
this point.  I find it eerie, by the way, to watch Baker and Davison
playing opposite one another.  It's like watching the Doctor's own
spectre come to haunt him...

                                       N. Tinkham

------------------------------

Date: Mon 17 Oct 83 17:18:20-PDT
From: Bob Krovetz <KROVETZ@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Foundation movies

     Some time ago I heard that the Foundation Trilogy (now tetralogy)
was being made into 3 movies to be released one month apart.  Has
anyone heard anything more about this?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 83 1030-EDT
From: Charles Mcgrew(The Substitute Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #105
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 28 Oct 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 105

Today's Topics:
            Books - Douglas Adams' new book(s) (5 msgs) &
                       Dream Park Filk song? &
                           Thendara House &
                     Sundiver & Startide Rising &
                       Thomas Covenant Series &
                         Zenna Henderson?? &
                      the Merit of Silverlock &
                        Spinrad's 'Iron Dream'&
                            AI literature &
                           New Amber Novels
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1983  21:24 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Douglas Adams' new book

     Yes, there will be a fourth and last(that's what he said about
the 3rd) book, but as of Oct 6th, when I saw him at MIT, it wasn't
going to be called "So long and thanks for all the fish".  He wasn't
sure what he was going to call it, but gave some title which I can't
pick out of either of my two brains at this point.  I assume most
people have heard that there's going to be a movie, for which Adams
has been writing the screenplay.

Dave();

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1983  21:30 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: The Meaning of Lif

     That is the correct name (LIF not LIFE) and its NOT at all
connected at all to the trilogy.  It's a dictionary of the names of
places in the world and humorous explanations of what they might mean
if they were common words in the language.  Its small and will
probably be out within 6 months.

Dave();

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 15 October 1983 01:16 edt
From: "Barry Margolin"@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: forthcoming Douglas Adams books

     Someone incorrectly reported that Douglas Adams is soon to be
releasing a book entitled "The Meaning of Life".  In fact, the title
is "The Meaning of Lif" (no "e").  It is a dictionary of sorts. What
the authors did was to find towns with strange names (mostly in
England, but there are also a few American and Irish names, and
probably names from other parts of the UK), and think up meanings for
the town names.  The idea is that there are many common situations and
objects for which there are no names.  Adams read from it at a lecture
he gave at MIT last week, and it is quite funny. I think he said that
this would be available in England in December, and in the US a couple
of months after that.

     There is also another Hitchhiker's Guide book entitled "So Long,
and Thanks for all the Fish".  I don't know when this will be
available.

     Someone else mentioned the "Hitchhiker's Guide" TV series.  This
was first shown on American TV about a year ago.  There are about six
episodes.  Adams is currently working on the screenplay for a feature
film version (he is having trouble convincing the producer that the
audience will not be disappointed when The Answer is revealed as just
42 - this is probably the same producer that wants Susan Calvin to be
young and sexy).

                                        barmar

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 83 18:53:17-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!ittvax!sii!mem @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker rumor

Re: John Platt and Berry Kercheval's report on the rumor of Douglas
    Adam's new book "thanks for all the fish"

     That's no rumor, I heard it was true!  Not only that, I
understand that paperback sales are expected to number "up to 100000
or more".

Glad to be of help
Mark Mallett
decvax!sii!mem

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1983  14:39 EDT (Sat)
From: Stephen R. Balzac <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Restaurant at the End of the Univers - (nf)

     The book called "The Meaning Of Lif" (note, not Life) is not the
fourth book of the HHGttG trilogy.  Adams read from it at his talk
here last week, and it is very funny.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1983 0754-PDT
Subject: Filk song (?)
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)

     I just finished reading DREAM PARK, a rather enjoyable novel
dealing with Fantasy Role-Playing games, by Niven & Barnes.  I suppose
that this is one of the self-referential SF works, as discussed on the
list a short while ago, as many of the characters seem to have stepped
out of a con into the book.

     Anyway, there are many of what I believe to be well-known SF
filksongs quoted in snatches in the book.  The characters seem to sing
these at any inappropriate moment.  One of them, extensively quoted
but not completely included, is a parody of the old hymn, "Give me
that Old-Time Religion", wherein each verse refers to some ancient or
non-Christian faith, such as the worship of Dagon, Isis, etc.  I don't
recall this filksong being included in the filksong collections
distributed through SFL some time back.  Does anyone have the complete
text of this song on-line that they could send me?

Thanks, Will Martin
Address: WMartin@Office-3

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 83 14:54:47-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Thendara House question

     I have just finished reading MZB's latest Darkover novel,
 "Thendara House", and I have an observation and a question.

 Observation:

     Darkovan women seem to spend an awful lot of time crying.

 Question:

     There is a very mysterious group of psychics mentioned in the
book called the "Dark Sisterhood".  Have they appeared in previous
books?  I've read 9 Darkover books (or so) and I've only encountered
the "Sisterhood of Avaara" (or something like that).  Are these
"healers" the above psychics.

     Their role in TH seems very omnipresent and foreboding.

                        D. Bartholomew
                        ... !pur-ee!physics!dub

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1983 10:11-EDT
From: york at scrc-vixen
Subject: Re: Sundiver & Startide Rising

     Oh well, I just finished reading Startide Rising before reading
Sundiver.  While I may have missed some references (I will find out
when I read Sundiver), I was not confused.  I hope that I have not
"missed half the fun", but if so, even that half was well worth it.
Go out and read this book.

     The science is believable.  That characterizations are wonderful.
The individual characters have very strong "feels" to them, and there
is even a very good grouping of characteristics among members of a
particular race (the thoughts of at least seven different races are
presented in the course of the book).

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 83 10:56:31-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxa!gek @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re:defense of thomas covenant

     O.K., I wasn't around for the original debate of the merits of
the Covenant series; here is MY defense. If someone claims a book is
boring and verbose, yet another praises the imagery and sees an
intricate underlying structure, doesn't that raise the possibility
that the second person is correct and the first just isn't
sufficiently perceptive? Maybe the people who are put off by
Donaldson's imposing double trilogy would prefer to read Lucky Starr
and the Asteroids? At least then they would not be troubled with any
symbolism interfering with the plot. To be fair, I did read some
portions of the series more, er, "quickly" than others. But, I
maintain the character developments, the symbolism, the subtle shift
from Covenant's difficulties in life to Linden's, all are admirable.
May I respectfully suggest that sf needs a few works like this to
avoid becoming like Westerns ("hiyo, dragon! away!")? Sorry, I got a
little carried away with that one...

     Why don't y'all blow me away with invective saved since the last
Great Covenant Debate?

glenn kapetansky (ihnp4!gek)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Oct 83 21:27:38 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.uci-750a@Rand-Relay

Folks,

     Anybody out there remember an author by the name of Zenna
Henderson ??  She wrote those memorable stories about the People, a
bunch of folks who came from Out There when their planet fell apart,
and got marooned here around he turn of the century somewhere in New
Mexico/Arizona.  They had all sorts of nifty abilities, like
telekinises, levitation, and stuff.  The also had lots of trouble with
the natives, thinking they were witches, and had to cover up the fact
that they were not from Here.

     Those stories and many others not related have been published in
four books that I know of, and will be familiar to many of you.

                        The People
                        No Different Flesh
                        Holding Wonder
                        The Anything Box

     or something approximate to that.  The last I heard, she was
living in Arizona somewhere, but that was a lot of years ago.  Is she
still alive ?? ( I hope ).  Did any work of hers sneak by in F&SF when
I wasn't looking ??

     Any news would be appreciated, along with comments from anybody
out there who has read her stuff.  All four books are still in print;
I see 'em at the bookstore all the time.

                Thanks in advance,
                        Dave Godwin , UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 83 10:34:05-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!alice!rabbit!jj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re:The Merit of Silverlock

Glenn...

     Reading Silverlock requires a sense of the absurd, and a feeling
for obscure humor.  Perhaps you just didn't read it in the right
spirit?

     Sorry, but you just walked all over one of my favorite books.

        Lucius

aka.

--
 O   o   From the pyrolagnic keyboard of
   ~              rabbit!jj
 -v-v-
 \^_^/

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 83 17:26:57-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!rene @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spinrad, etc.

     Speaking of 'The Iron Dream' (or whatever it was called, the one
with the picture of Hitler riding a futuristic motorcycle), I saw that
book in Germany. It was wrapped in plastic and had a warning label on
it saying that the book should not be sold to people under 18. It was
the only book with a warning label and wrapped like that. This was in
Kassel.

                                        - rene

------------------------------

Date: 15 October 1983 00:02 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL @ MIT-MC>
Subject: AI literature

     You have two books by two authors scrambled together.  The
Adolescence of P1 is by Thomas Ryan.  That is the book with the virus
program that spontaneously develops intelligence.  Two Faces of
Tomorrow, by James Hogan, is a much more believable book.  It is the
book that contains the egg scene you mentioned.

                                                           ...Keith

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 83 10:44:09 EDT
From: SHERMAN@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: New Amber Novels

      Well I must say that I've finally read some exciting news in
sf-lovers!  Has anyone seen the first of the latest Amber books out on
the shelves anywhere???! After reading "The Courts of Chaos" I'm a bit
sceptical about the future quality of the series, but I think its
worth the risk!

                                                         *Steve*

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 83 1030-EDT
From: Charles Mcgrew(The Substitute Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #105
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 28 Oct 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 105

Today's Topics:
            Books - Douglas Adams' new book(s) (5 msgs) &
                       Dream Park Filk song? &
                           Thendara House &
                     Sundiver & Startide Rising &
                       Thomas Covenant Series &
                         Zenna Henderson?? &
                      the Merit of Silverlock &
                        Spinrad's 'Iron Dream'&
                            AI literature &
                           New Amber Novels
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1983  21:24 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Douglas Adams' new book

     Yes, there will be a fourth and last(that's what he said about
the 3rd) book, but as of Oct 6th, when I saw him at MIT, it wasn't
going to be called "So long and thanks for all the fish".  He wasn't
sure what he was going to call it, but gave some title which I can't
pick out of either of my two brains at this point.  I assume most
people have heard that there's going to be a movie, for which Adams
has been writing the screenplay.

Dave();

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1983  21:30 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: The Meaning of Lif

     That is the correct name (LIF not LIFE) and its NOT at all
connected at all to the trilogy.  It's a dictionary of the names of
places in the world and humorous explanations of what they might mean
if they were common words in the language.  Its small and will
probably be out within 6 months.

Dave();

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 15 October 1983 01:16 edt
From: "Barry Margolin"@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: forthcoming Douglas Adams books

     Someone incorrectly reported that Douglas Adams is soon to be
releasing a book entitled "The Meaning of Life".  In fact, the title
is "The Meaning of Lif" (no "e").  It is a dictionary of sorts. What
the authors did was to find towns with strange names (mostly in
England, but there are also a few American and Irish names, and
probably names from other parts of the UK), and think up meanings for
the town names.  The idea is that there are many common situations and
objects for which there are no names.  Adams read from it at a lecture
he gave at MIT last week, and it is quite funny. I think he said that
this would be available in England in December, and in the US a couple
of months after that.

     There is also another Hitchhiker's Guide book entitled "So Long,
and Thanks for all the Fish".  I don't know when this will be
available.

     Someone else mentioned the "Hitchhiker's Guide" TV series.  This
was first shown on American TV about a year ago.  There are about six
episodes.  Adams is currently working on the screenplay for a feature
film version (he is having trouble convincing the producer that the
audience will not be disappointed when The Answer is revealed as just
42 - this is probably the same producer that wants Susan Calvin to be
young and sexy).

                                        barmar

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 83 18:53:17-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!ittvax!sii!mem @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker rumor

Re: John Platt and Berry Kercheval's report on the rumor of Douglas
    Adam's new book "thanks for all the fish"

     That's no rumor, I heard it was true!  Not only that, I
understand that paperback sales are expected to number "up to 100000
or more".

Glad to be of help
Mark Mallett
decvax!sii!mem

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1983  14:39 EDT (Sat)
From: Stephen R. Balzac <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Restaurant at the End of the Univers - (nf)

     The book called "The Meaning Of Lif" (note, not Life) is not the
fourth book of the HHGttG trilogy.  Adams read from it at his talk
here last week, and it is very funny.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1983 0754-PDT
Subject: Filk song (?)
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)

     I just finished reading DREAM PARK, a rather enjoyable novel
dealing with Fantasy Role-Playing games, by Niven & Barnes.  I suppose
that this is one of the self-referential SF works, as discussed on the
list a short while ago, as many of the characters seem to have stepped
out of a con into the book.

     Anyway, there are many of what I believe to be well-known SF
filksongs quoted in snatches in the book.  The characters seem to sing
these at any inappropriate moment.  One of them, extensively quoted
but not completely included, is a parody of the old hymn, "Give me
that Old-Time Religion", wherein each verse refers to some ancient or
non-Christian faith, such as the worship of Dagon, Isis, etc.  I don't
recall this filksong being included in the filksong collections
distributed through SFL some time back.  Does anyone have the complete
text of this song on-line that they could send me?

Thanks, Will Martin
Address: WMartin@Office-3

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 83 14:54:47-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Thendara House question

     I have just finished reading MZB's latest Darkover novel,
 "Thendara House", and I have an observation and a question.

 Observation:

     Darkovan women seem to spend an awful lot of time crying.

 Question:

     There is a very mysterious group of psychics mentioned in the
book called the "Dark Sisterhood".  Have they appeared in previous
books?  I've read 9 Darkover books (or so) and I've only encountered
the "Sisterhood of Avaara" (or something like that).  Are these
"healers" the above psychics.

     Their role in TH seems very omnipresent and foreboding.

                        D. Bartholomew
                        ... !pur-ee!physics!dub

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1983 10:11-EDT
From: york at scrc-vixen
Subject: Re: Sundiver & Startide Rising

     Oh well, I just finished reading Startide Rising before reading
Sundiver.  While I may have missed some references (I will find out
when I read Sundiver), I was not confused.  I hope that I have not
"missed half the fun", but if so, even that half was well worth it.
Go out and read this book.

     The science is believable.  That characterizations are wonderful.
The individual characters have very strong "feels" to them, and there
is even a very good grouping of characteristics among members of a
particular race (the thoughts of at least seven different races are
presented in the course of the book).

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 83 10:56:31-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxa!gek @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re:defense of thomas covenant

     O.K., I wasn't around for the original debate of the merits of
the Covenant series; here is MY defense. If someone claims a book is
boring and verbose, yet another praises the imagery and sees an
intricate underlying structure, doesn't that raise the possibility
that the second person is correct and the first just isn't
sufficiently perceptive? Maybe the people who are put off by
Donaldson's imposing double trilogy would prefer to read Lucky Starr
and the Asteroids? At least then they would not be troubled with any
symbolism interfering with the plot. To be fair, I did read some
portions of the series more, er, "quickly" than others. But, I
maintain the character developments, the symbolism, the subtle shift
from Covenant's difficulties in life to Linden's, all are admirable.
May I respectfully suggest that sf needs a few works like this to
avoid becoming like Westerns ("hiyo, dragon! away!")? Sorry, I got a
little carried away with that one...

     Why don't y'all blow me away with invective saved since the last
Great Covenant Debate?

glenn kapetansky (ihnp4!gek)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Oct 83 21:27:38 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.uci-750a@Rand-Relay

Folks,

     Anybody out there remember an author by the name of Zenna
Henderson ??  She wrote those memorable stories about the People, a
bunch of folks who came from Out There when their planet fell apart,
and got marooned here around he turn of the century somewhere in New
Mexico/Arizona.  They had all sorts of nifty abilities, like
telekinises, levitation, and stuff.  The also had lots of trouble with
the natives, thinking they were witches, and had to cover up the fact
that they were not from Here.

     Those stories and many others not related have been published in
four books that I know of, and will be familiar to many of you.

                        The People
                        No Different Flesh
                        Holding Wonder
                        The Anything Box

     or something approximate to that.  The last I heard, she was
living in Arizona somewhere, but that was a lot of years ago.  Is she
still alive ?? ( I hope ).  Did any work of hers sneak by in F&SF when
I wasn't looking ??

     Any news would be appreciated, along with comments from anybody
out there who has read her stuff.  All four books are still in print;
I see 'em at the bookstore all the time.

                Thanks in advance,
                        Dave Godwin , UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 83 10:34:05-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!alice!rabbit!jj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re:The Merit of Silverlock

Glenn...

     Reading Silverlock requires a sense of the absurd, and a feeling
for obscure humor.  Perhaps you just didn't read it in the right
spirit?

     Sorry, but you just walked all over one of my favorite books.

        Lucius

aka.

--
 O   o   From the pyrolagnic keyboard of
   ~              rabbit!jj
 -v-v-
 \^_^/

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 83 17:26:57-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!rene @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spinrad, etc.

     Speaking of 'The Iron Dream' (or whatever it was called, the one
with the picture of Hitler riding a futuristic motorcycle), I saw that
book in Germany. It was wrapped in plastic and had a warning label on
it saying that the book should not be sold to people under 18. It was
the only book with a warning label and wrapped like that. This was in
Kassel.

                                        - rene

------------------------------

Date: 15 October 1983 00:02 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL @ MIT-MC>
Subject: AI literature

     You have two books by two authors scrambled together.  The
Adolescence of P1 is by Thomas Ryan.  That is the book with the virus
program that spontaneously develops intelligence.  Two Faces of
Tomorrow, by James Hogan, is a much more believable book.  It is the
book that contains the egg scene you mentioned.

                                                           ...Keith

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 83 10:44:09 EDT
From: SHERMAN@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: New Amber Novels

      Well I must say that I've finally read some exciting news in
sf-lovers!  Has anyone seen the first of the latest Amber books out on
the shelves anywhere???! After reading "The Courts of Chaos" I'm a bit
sceptical about the future quality of the series, but I think its
worth the risk!

                                                         *Steve*

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 83 1053-EDT
From: Charles McGrew(The African Explorer) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #106
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 28 Oct 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 106

Today's Topics:
         Movies - Response to Question about "Bladerunner" &
                        Star Trek III: Kruge,
                    Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs),
     Discussion - The Very Worst SF Book Ever Written (4 msgs) &
                    "Sci-Fi" vs. "S.F." (4 msgs) &
                             Organbanks,
                 Humor - New Sci-Fi collaborations???
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John McLean <mclean@NRL-CSS>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 83 10:44:02 EDT
Subject: Dave Steiner's question about "Bladerunner"

     I think that the sixth replicant was the secretary Harrison Ford
ran off with.  I admit that I had the impression that she had not come
from off-world, but if she were one of the six known to be at large,
it would explain how Harrison Ford's competitor/colleague knew she was
a replicant.  There is a final conversation between the two males
where Ford says that he has killed the last replicant and is surprised
that he is not challenged on this obviously false assertion.  As it
turns out, his competitor figured out where the sixth was and decided
to look the other way in order to get Ford out of the picture.

                   John

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 83 17:46:58 PDT (Sat)
From: Stephen Willson <willson.uci-750a@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Kruge

     "Kruge" probably doesn't rhyme with "Moog", because the vowel
sound in "Moog" is pronounced the same as in "Rogue".  This guy's name
has been mispronounced since Switched-On Bach first came out around
1968.

                                -- Steve

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 83 8:48:53-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ih1ap!jgd @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RE: The TARDIS

     To jfg, and to other misinformed folks,

     There have been some questions on the net about the Doctors
TARDIS having the ability to change appearance.

     According to the novel versions of Dr. Who episodes the
introductions state that the TARDIS was ripped off by the Dr. while it
was in for repairs.  At which time it was in the form of the blue
british police box.  Apparently it was in the shop to repaired because
the "camelion circuit" which accomplishes the appearance change was
not functioning.

     In the episode "Logopolis", the last episode staring Tom Baker,
he pushes a button on the console which extrudes a typical looking
micro processor keyboard that is the control for the camelion circuit.
"You have to input the instructions in machine code" the Dr. says to
Adrick.  Then an image appears on his viewscrean in back on the
console and as a demonstration he calls up an image of a pyramid.  "Of
course you'll need a real world interface" he says to Adrick, (he
means a door).  He then explains that it hasn't worked for some time
and that he was going to ask Romana to fix it some day.

     Feeling that this matter of the camelion circuit not working has
now acquired a very high priority he goes to Earth to precisely
measure an authentic police box, take the measurements to the planet
Logopolis and through "block transfer computation" have the circuit
fixed.  The Master all the while has been waiting in the background to
foil the Dr. as best he can and ...... well for those of you who
haven't seen it, I'll stop here.  If there are anymore questions I'll
view my video tape and come up with more accurate info on both TARDIS
control rooms 1 & 2, the masters TARDIS, or block transfer
computation.

                                        Jerry Donovan
                                        ih1ap!jgd
                                        AT&T/Western Electric
                                        Naperville Il.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 83 8:30:13-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!decwrl!amd70!fortune!dsd!avsdS!nelson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Doctor's Tardis

     The "chameleon circuit" gives the tardis its outward appearance.
In the last Tom Baker episode ("Logopolis") he travels to Logopolis to
have them work out some formulae relating to the chameleon circuit.
Seems it is failing (along with everything else!). The circuit can be
programmed to present any outward appearance. Note that in this and
the preceding episode ("Keeper of Traken" - from whence comes Nyssa,
daughter of Keeper) the Master's tardis is shown in at least 3
different forms - the statue (I think that was a tardis), a
grandfather clock, and a pillar of rock (if memory serves me).

                Glenn Nelson, Ampex, Redwood City

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 83 0524 EDT (Saturday)
From: Thomas Rodeheffer@CMU-CS-A (C410TR30)
Subject: Galaxy 666

     I'll second the nomination of "Galaxy 666" as the worst science
fiction book ever published.  It's so bad that I found myself
wondering why in the world I was wasting my time reading it, but I
just couldn't believe that it was really that bad.  It's so bad it's
funny.  This is opposed to the kind of badness found in the first few
pages (all I can attest to) of "Dhalgren," for example, which is
tedious and soporific.

                -Tom Rodeheffer

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 17 October 1983 13:21 mst
From: RMann.HDSA@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Galaxy 666

     Obviously, Galaxy 666 is a humorous spoof of "serious" science
fiction.

-Roger

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 83 12:52:32-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!jdd @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Computerworld

     As I read Stephen Perelgut's announcement of van Vogt's upcoming
"Computerworld", I was reminded of an earlier book by the same name
but by some truly wretched author, which may qualify as some of the
worst SF (or Sci-Fi) ever written (but probably not; I'm sure there's
been much worse).

     The plot includes a new town where everything is controlled by a
giant computer: streetlights, washing machines, you name it.  A
visitor gets shown around, remarks that it certainly seems like a nice
computer, gets told it's quite smart too; it gets fed news from the
New York Times every morning.  The visitor asks how the machine can
read English; they explain that it doesn't need to because there are
technicians who translate the New York Times into Fortran.

     Eventually the visitor wonders that the computer is a bit too
smart, because it's murdering people by overflowing their washing
machines in order to electrocute them.  The technicians consider
shutting down the computer but decide not to, because the deaths could
all be coincidences.  Some more "plot" ensues, and our hero discovers
that the computer is not evil after all, but is merely being
controlled by a bad guy high up in the project who had some secret
motive.  The bad guy gets exposed and everyone lives happily ever
after.

Good one.

Cheers,
John ("Read Any Good Sci-Fi Lately?") DeTreville
Bell Labs, Murray Hill

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Oct 83 15:21 EST
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund.umass-cs@rand-relay.arpa>
Subject: Worst book in SF

     My vote is for Alfred Bester's "The Computer Connection"

     People turning into lions, indeed.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 83 9:22:59-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Enough with the SF/Sci fI

     I just can't believe the garbage that I am reading over this net
about whether TRUE science fiction fans should say: SF or Sci-Fi.
Just who the hell really cares, and if someone does care they
shouldn't.

     Ok, so there might have been historical reasons for not saying
Sci-Fi (as someone has noted it used to be a slur.)  Let's grow up a
bit.  We're almost (are) talking about literary prejudice.  If you're
in a crowd talking about science fiction and some person says that
terrible term "Sci-Fi" are you going to subconsciously stand away from
them?  Single them out?  That's what prejudice is all about!

     I'm all for learning about the history of science fiction, but
let's not get too reminiscent and start living in the past.

                           Dwight Bartholomew
                           ... !pur-ee!physics!dub

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 83 12:06:30-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF & juveniles

     All right, Anecdote Time...

     The way that I heard it, the term "sci-fi", pronounced "sky-fie",
was invented by the noted SF fan Forrest Ackerman in the 1950's.  The
term was based on the contemporary term "hi-fi", referring to
high-fidelity sound-reproduction equipment. His motive was to separate
the sheep from the wolves; that is, the amateurs and tyros in the SF
field from the much more knowledgeable and sophisticated fans (in
those days, fandom was much more cohesive than it is today, with a
fairly small group of people all reading the same magazines,
corresponding through letter columns, and attending the same
conventions).  He may have done this in response to the explosive
growth in published SF during the 50's, accompanied by a large number
of professed SF fans and writers who were science-fictionally
illiterate, and threatened to swamp the field, and destroy its
identity.  The idea was that the old guard would use the term SF,
while the unaware newcomers would say sci-fi, making themselves
objects of derision (at least, until they learned better).

     Unfortunately, SF has by now lost much of its identity, with many
of the early writers dead and a new generation of readers (numbering
probably many more than the entire of SF fandom in the '50s)
considering Alan Dean Foster's "Star Wars" adaptations to be classic
sci-fi; oh, it makes me mad...!

     I forget where I heard this particular story; I've undoubtedly
gotten some of the details wrong. Are there any fans out there who
know Forry Ackerman, who could fill in the picture?

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 83 11:02:46-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!cires!nbires!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF or Sci-Fi?

     One would think it would be sufficient to know that the skiffy
term is pretty near unanimously denounced by sf writers and fans.
Next time you're in NYC, go to Harlem and ask: "Why don't you niggers
like to be called niggers?"

--

John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq, jsq@ut-sally.{ARPA,UUCP}

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1983 15:05:21-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: accuracy in SF

     1. "Skiffy" is the pronunciation used by fans trying to take some
of the odor off a [cute] abbreviation; the evidence does not suggest
that it was invented by mundanes. (It has also been cursed in its
turn; a song came in a few years ago called "If it tastes like
cardboard, it must be Skiffy!" (It began "Cylons, Cylons wipe out moon
. . .").

     2. Rusty Hevelin is not the most accurate source of information.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 83 10:18:36-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!alice!rabbit!jj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: a selfish heart in the bank

     Yeah... Well, Tom, I usually agree with you, BUT.  I think that
making organs sell for a profit will mean that the poor, instead of
having to get black market organs, will start BEING black market
organs, i.e. the criminals will kill the poor people (who "nobody
misses") and take their organs.  Sort of a more deadly and even less
desirable type of shanghaiing people.

     I guess that I don't like the idea of organ banks at all.  Seems
to me that we should be able to GROW organs long before we really lick
the problem of rejection.  Then, what do we need organ banks for?

     Perhaps as a short term solution, it's not so bad, but...
WeMadeIt

     I think the word "greedy" DOES have a use in this society.  It
describes the actions of most of the Druckerite managers perfectly, in
that it shows someone cutting off their long term existence for a rich
time in the next 5 years.

--
 O   o   From the pyrolagnic keyboard of
   ~              rabbit!jj
 -v-v-
 \^_^/

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1983 10:29-EST
From: Joseph.Ginder@CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA
Subject: forthcoming new Sci-Fi collaborations

     Anyone heard the rumour about the new novel which Arthur C.
Clarke, Isaac Asimov, and Frank Herbert are collaborating on?  It's
called "2020: Dune Robot Odyssey".  Robbie the Robot is wisked through
a Star Gate to Dune where he finds that the Fourth Foundation was
established by Harry Seldon on Dune among the Fremen.  He discovers
that Sand Worms are, in reality, gigantic, self-reproducing gate
arrays containing all of Man's accumulated knowledge.  Paul Atreides
was just the first post-Seldon person to build a Sand Worm decoder.

     Next on the publisher's list of collaborations: "The Nth
Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the DragonRider of Dune Ringworld",
"The Lord's Little Fuzzy Right Hand of Light", and "The Amber
Riverworld Berserker's Dangerous Visions" (which contains a story
called "I Have a Mote in My Eye and I Must Scream") by ....  well, you
can guess.  Plots to be determined at a later date.  It is also
rumoured that Harlan Ellison is negotiating a contract to write a
Harlequin Romance.  (Yeah, you guessed it, the main character, a clock
maker, repents.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Nov 83 2121-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #107
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 107

Today's Topics:
Re: Zenna Henderson??
Zenna Henderson
merit survey
Re: Merit Survy Results
Anyone know title/author?
another request for title/author
Time Enough For Mail
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29-Oct-83 23:16 PDT
From: RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3
Subject: Re: Zenna Henderson??

     Sorry, but Zenna Henderson died of cancer at the age of 65, May
11, 1983.

-Rich Zellich

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1983  13:30 EST (Sun)
From: Stephen R. Balzac <LS.SRB@EE>

     I believe that there was a People story published a few months
back in F & SF magazine, but I'm not sure.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1983 11:35:02 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler)
Subject: Zenna Henderson

     I have very fond memories of Zenna Henderson's works.  However,
the entry in sfl on her had a few errors and a few omissions.  Here's
the "official" info, straight from the Science Fiction Encyclopedia:

     Henderson, Zenna (1917--) [I seem to recall a Locus obit within
the last year, however....] American writer and schoolteacher, who has
very frequently used her teaching experience in Arizona and elsewhere
as a base for her stories.  Her first story was "Come on, Wagon!" for
FSF in 1951; soon after, with "Ararat" for FSF in 1952, she began
publishing, in the magazine with which she is most strongly
associated, the series of stories about the "People", her central
work.  Assembled as "Pilgrimage: The Book of the People" (1952-59 FSF;
fix-up 1961) and "The People: No Different Flesh" [ONE BOOK, NOT TWO!]
(1961-65 FSF; coll.  of linked stories 1966), the sequence recounts
over a long time-span the arduous experiences of a group of aliens
with psi powers, who are outwardly indistinguishable from humans but
morally superior.  They are shipwrecked on Earth, and are forced to
try to survive as well and fully as possible.  A further story, "The
Indelible Kind" (1968), appears with unconnected stories in "Holding
Wonder" (coll. 1971); this collection, along with "The Anything Box"
(coll. 1965), assembles most of ZH's stories independent of the
"People" tales.  The same decorous warmth infuses all her work,
sometimes overly reducing tensions and contrasts, but usually
demonstrating her humane talent to advantage, though her wholesomeness
has been criticized as over-sentimental and mildly religiose in
manner.  [John Clute]

     The only thing missing from the SFE article is the fact that
several of the "People" stories were combined into a made-for-TV movie
a few years back; the title escapes me at the moment...perhaps some
other SFL reader will recall it.

Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1983  9:35:37 PDT
From: <frank@ACC>
Subject: merit survey

     The answer to the question is of course a subjective one. It has
always been my contention that most of the accepted literary classics
that have been passed down to this generation are classics because of
a myriad of criteria that only stuffed shirts in Literature
Departments across this land recognize. The word "classic" is as
frequently misused and thrown about as is the word "genius". Even so,
I do have an opinion why sci-fi and fantasy are not accorded the
amount of literary respectability that may or may not be legitimately
earned by sci-fi authors. Here goes:

     First of all, I don't feel that fantasy and sci-fi belong in the
same category. Fantasy has tended to gain respect a lot easier than
has sci-fi.  Quite a few very famous men have taken their turn at
fantasy writing and have used the fantasy format to make veiled
statements about the foibles of mankind. In the process, these writers
have given a sense of dignity and maturity to their works that fantasy
just for fantasies sake has been hard pressed to achieve. I'll mention
Voltaire's Candide, Dante's Inferno, Mark Twain's Conn. Yankee in King
Arthurs Court, George Orwell's Animal Farm, Tales of Narnia ( CS Lewis
used religious symbolism heavily in these books), Alice in Wonderland,
Gulliver's Travels, and so on. On the other hand, wonderful books have
been created that are nothing but literary journeys into other worlds
and weave such a fantastic picture that their appeal is almost
irresistible. The Lord of the Rings is a great example of this type of
book. In both types of fantasies, their success has been due to their
ability to appeal to almost every person's private or public
fantasies. In a word, they are very accessible to all types of people
and require no special training, sophistication or mindset to enjoy.
Also, fantasy is almost never regarded as being possible. Readers read
fantasy and never dream that our world could ever progress or evolve
into the fantastical world depicted in fantasy books.

     On the other hand, sci-fi does require some interest in the
technical possibilities that may happen to us in some future age.
Readers tend to be drawn into determining whether or not the book is
feasible according to the laws that we think govern our world today.
The key difference being that sci-fi could eventually happen if
technology progresses. The unsophistication of the average reader
concerning such things as relativity, quantum physics, computers and
so on keeps him or her from understanding most of the sci-fi that is
currently being written today. There are some very important
exceptions; Frankenstein, any Jules Verne novel, H.G. Wells, and maybe
a few others. These books differ from today's sci-fi because they
described their themes using concepts readily understood by most
readers and did not get too "technical". Also, note one common
attribute that these books share which is that they were all written
quite some time ago.

     As far as comparing sci-fi and fantasy to classical literature, I
am of the opinion that until sci-fi, that is, current sci-fi, is
around a lot longer will we ever consider any of the new crop of Hugo
winners "classics" in the time-honored sense of the word.  Each new
generation has grown more and more familiar with the new advances in
technology and are less intimidated by the techno-jargon.  As they
grow older and become the determiners of what is a "classic", sci-fi
books will be added to the list of classics read in American Lit
classes by the freshman class of 2020. Not only will the
sophistication of the readers change over time, but the current views
that shape critics opinions of serious literature will change. The
basic themes of our list of accepted "classics" deal mainly around the
human element and human interactions with each other or societies. The
past two centuries have seen massive upheavals in social evolution and
the almost catholic (excluding Marxists) realization that the
individual is more important than the state. This idea has brought
forth a slew of books that deal with the lives and hopes of people.
Character development became the most important part of describing the
human element. Of course, I am generalizing here but my point is that
accepted literary criteria for literature change according to the
changes of the world in which we live in and in the way we perceive
ourselves within that world. The next century will see an acceleration
and redefining of the very core of our way at looking at the world. I
support this by mentioning the ominous problems of over-population,
nuclear war, pollution, hunger and so on that will become acute very
soon. These problems in tandem with the enormous capabilities of the
technological advances being made will force us to redefine every
aspect of our world. One of the ways in which peoples showcase their
anxieties, fears, hopes and thoughts is through literature. Hence, I
say that if you SF buffs can just wait a while, you will get your
recognition. It just might come when the world condition is so
unmanageable that all we will want to read about is what might happen
instead of what is happening.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 83 13:07:58 PST (Monday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Merit Survy Results

     For "Mary" Re: your message in V8 #104

     Yes, there is no denying the POWER of Tolkien's work, which is
why I am AFRAID to read it again.  The first reading had such an
impression on me that I could not imagine an elf without it being a
Tolkien Elf, I could not imagine wizards without them being Gandalf, I
could not imagince evil races without them being orcs and goblins,
etc.

     Allow me to quote from Ursula K. LeGuin's collection of essays
"Language of the Night" where she talks of her experience with Tolkien
and the danger to a neophyte author that Tolkien represents:

     "...But when it [Lord of the Rings trilogy] appeared in the
library, I shied away from it.  I was afraid of it.  It looks dull, I
thought ...  It's probably affected.  It's probably allegorical....
The language looked a bit stilted ...

     [She get's it anyway and loves it]

     "... I reread a great deal, but have lost count only with
Dickens, Tolstoy, and Tolkien.

     "Yet I believe that my hesitation, my instinctive distrust of
those three volumes in the university library, was well founded.  To
put it in the book's own terms: Something of great inherent power,
even if wholly good in itself, may work destruction if used in
ignorance, or at the wrong time.  One must be ready; one must be
strong enough.

     "...But very few children (fortunately) are going to grow up to
write fantastic novels; ... I count it lucky that I, personally, did
not, and could not have, read Tolkien before I was twenty-five.
Because I really wonder if I could have handled it.

     [She speaks of how her goals for writing had already been formed
by the time she read Tolkien and goes on ...]

     "... I was old enough, and had worked long and hard enough at my
craft, to be set in my ways; to know my own way.  Even the sweep and
force of that incredible imagination could not dislodge me from my own
little rut and carry me, like Gollum, scuttling and whimpering along
behind.  So far as \writing/ is concerned, I mean.  When it comes to
\reading/, there's a different matter.  I open the book, the great
wind blows, the Quest begins, I follow ..."

     All this becomes relevant when I point out the following facts:

     a) I have had a strong desire to write "fantastic novels" since I
        was eight.

     b)  I read Tolkien when I was 14.

     c) I read the essay quoted above just a year ago.

     Now you know why I "shy away" from re-reading Tolkien.  Indeed, I
wish I had never read it in the first place!!!!  The battle against
emulating Tolkien has been an uphill one for me, one that I am, eight
years later, still fighting.  Still, still, can I remember Galadriel
as she sang farewell to the Fellowship ... "Ai! Laurie lante lassi
surinen ..."

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 83 16:12:46-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxa!jhs @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Anyone know title/author?

     I'm looking for a lead (title, author, collection, etc.) to a
story that I read about 10-12 years ago.  It's about a young man who's
eccentric uncle dies, leaving him only a belt (or something similar).
He discovers that the belt allows time travel (which accounts for
uncle's eccentricity and wealth).  Most of the book is about his
travels and his meeting himself in the past and future.  I think that
there is some "parallel worlds" involved because some of his
alter-egos are hers.  Anyone remember this?

    /s/  John Scherer   Bell Labs  Holmdel, NJ  ...!houxm!houxa!jhs

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 83 12:05:08-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!rene @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: another request for title/author

     Does anyone know about a book about some guy who wakes up in some
kind of work camp, without his memory. The doctors piece together
where he comes from from his odd reactions to certain things like
eating in public (on his planet people ate together only with screens
over the lower half of the face - eating was about as socially
acceptable as excretion) and an exilharation in the dark (which, on
his planet, was the only time sexual activity was acceptable - men
would put on masks and go 'rape' a willing woman, if she chose him).
When he returned, it turned out that he had been put away because of
some 'magic formula' made by natives, and there was something about
sibling rivalry and inheritance, I think. It's been a long while, so I
hope I've got what details I remember right.

                                Thanks,
                                   - rene
--
Arpa:   rene.umcp-cs@CSNet-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!rene

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1983 1540-PDT
From: Eric P. Scott <EPS at JPL-VAX>
Subject: Time Enough For Mail

    Mail-From: ARPAnet host SRI-CSL rcvd at Mon Oct 24 16:54-PDT
    Date: 24 Oct 1983 16:50-PDT
    Sender: GEOFF@SRI-CSL
    Subject: Re: Special Favor Request
    From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow
    Reply-To: Geoff@SRI-CSL
    To: EPS@JPL-VAX
    Message-ID: <[SRI-CSL]24-Oct-83 16:50:55.GEOFF>

        Date: 19 Oct 1983 1705-PDT
        From: Eric P. Scott <EPS at JPL-VAX>
        Subject: Special Favor Request
        To: Geoff at SRI-CSL
        Return-path: <EPS@JPL-VAX>

        I understand you have the entire SF-L archives on SRI-CSL; can
        you find the short story "Time Enough For Mail" that appeared
        around the time of Roger Duffey's retirement as moderator?
        Thanks in advance...
                                            -=EPS=-
        ------

    I looked thru the archives and could find only the message that
    mentioned the availability of the story, but no story text at
    all.

    Perhaps you could cons it up by sending a request to sf-lovers?

Can you offer assistance?
                                        -=EPS=-

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Nov 83 1734-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #108
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Nov 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 108

Today's Topics:
         Books - Douglas Adams & Alfred Bester & David Brin &
                             Gene Wolfe,
                 Music - Old Time Religion (3 msgs),
                Query - Science Fiction Ghost Writers,
                            Comics - MARS,
                    Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs),
                  Film - Brainstorm & Bladerunner &
                   News about 2010:  Odyssey Two &
                   Possible Movie about the 414's?,
    Games - Traveller--Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1983  17:04 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Doug's new book:  The Story of the title so far.

     Well, I've been corrected by someone who was in the same audience
that night with Douglas Adams.  "Goodbye And Thanks For All The Fish"
is IN FACT the intended title of the book.  Though I AM sure that
wasn't finalized, it does seem appropriate.

Apologies.

Dave.

------------------------------

Date: 29 OCT 1983 0203 EDT
From: METZ at MIT-ML
Subject: Computer Connection

     If one is to nominate a book as the Worst SF book ever written,
one should at least have paid attention to the story while it was
being read. No one turns into a lion in Computer Connection; if you
are under the impression that someone DOES turn into a lion, you
should probably read the book again, and read an English edition, this
time. You'll note that no one turns into a lion.  Not even a wolf. At
worst, Bester is guilty of some criminal silliness in this book.

-----Harold S. Metz

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1983 1047-PDT
Subject: Probability Drives
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)

     The first I recall reading/hearing of "probability drives" was in
HitchHiker's Guide, where the "Heart of Gold" had an "infinite
improbability drive", which I found to be a delightful concept.  Now,
as I read Brin's STARTIDE RISING, I see discussion of various forms of
probability drives and weaponry using probability fields.  Was HHGttG
the origin of the "probability drive" concept, or had it appeared in
SF before that?  Would Brin's use of it be derived from HHttG, or
would there be some other etymology to explain it?  It is quite
intriguing and the concept deserves further use and adoption into the
SF "standards" -- those terms any SF writer can use freely that are
common to the SF community.

Will Martin

PS I thank all those who sent in reviews and comments on STARTIDE
RISING; I'm almost through it, and it is excellent.  Have to find
SUNDIVER and read it too, now.  WM

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 27 Oct 1983 23:40-PDT
Subject: Book of the New Sun
From: obrien@rand-unix

     A Change of Hobbit bookstore has the fourth volume of "The Book
of the New Sun", by Gene Wolfe, available in paperback.  This means
that as of now, the entire work is available for purchase.

     This is just about the best book I've read in years.  I highly
recommend it to everyone, with the (possibly fatal) provisio that if
you find the first volume slow, keep going.  This is somewhat like the
Dorothy Dunnett books: you have to get past the first two somehow,
then you gradually become hooked.  It's very well worth the investment
of time and money.  This is some of the finest literature I've seen in
SF, right up there with the best of LeGuin.  Do not be put off by the
profession of the protagonist.  This is one of the greatest paeons in
praise of human worth and dignity that I've ever read - a genuine
novel of redemption.

     Lovers of language will have a particularly good time.  Gaudeamus
igitur.

     P.S. If anyone wants to sell me the hardbacks, I'm buying.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 29 Oct 83 00:42:43-EDT
From: Dragon <Cellio@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Old Time Religion

     There is no one "complete" version of the song.  Verses keep
getting added all the time.  I know someone who has over 300, and his
collection is by no means complete.  (No, I don't have a copy of it).

                                                -D

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 1983  18:04 EST (Tue)
From: Arturo Perez@MIT-EECS <UC.ART@MIT-EECS at MIT-ML>
Subject: Filk songs inquiry

     In one of the messages in this digest it was mentioned that a
collection of filk songs was being passed around not so long ago.
Does anyone still have a copy of that?  If so would you be kink enough
to mail me a copy of it?  Thanx.  Have Fun!!

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 83 23:14:11 PST (Monday)
From: Wenn.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Filk song (?)

     <<ALL>> the verses to "Old-Time Religion"??!!  You must have know
idea of the size of what you ask.  The song pays tribute to every god,
goddess, demi-god, demon, nymph, sprite, idol, and demiurge you've
ever heard of. I once spent 2 hours with a group of 20-30 people
singing different verses (that's several hundred verses, and I know
there is more where that came from).

     I can only think of one verse off-hand:

(Chorus)  Give me that old time religion
          Give me that old time religion
          Give me that old time religion
          It's good enough for me

          If it's good enough for Dagon
          That conservative old pagan
          Who still votes for Ronald Reagan
          It's good enough for me

John "Out of tune again" Wenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Oct 83 14:50:35 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS>
Subject: ghost writers

     I've heard a rumor that several prominent sf authors have
admitted to the use of ghost writers for some of their recent works.
Two names mentioned were Robert Heinlein and Ray Bradbury.  I've also
heard similar things concerning Piers Anthony, who seems to be
shooting for Asimov's record for number of books published.  Does
anyone have any definite knowledge confirming or denying this?

                                  Peter Reiher (reiher@ucla-cs)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 83 17:51:41-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: MARS

     Boy, so much material here to touch on! Since tim mentioned Jon
Sable only in a back handed way, I won't go on about that series,
although I do enjoy it (particularly the four origin issues).

     First I want to mention a few things about MARS. In general, I
agree that this is a silly series (particularly after reading the
second issue). The plot goes whipping by very quickly in the first
issue, and then drags - barely able to reach the finish (which it
really doesn't) in the second issue. And much of the "science" is on
very weak grounds. But I don't find the art that offensive. In fact,
it seems to remind me quite a bit of the style of the Japanese
animation shows. Has anyone else noticed this? I read the bios on the
artists, but neither seems to have any background in the Japanese
shows, and no mention is made of it. Anyway, I'll hang on a little
longer to see how it goes.

     Perhaps more disturbing is the insistence that science fiction
has to be prepared to give PhD level explanations of any "new" science
to qualify as "science fiction" and not "science fantasy". I simply do
not agree. Certainly in the 40's, 50's and early 60's this was the
case, and it was the style that first captured me. But the field has
grown beyond the stage of writing stories around hardware or theory.
There are many good "science fiction" stories that do not bother to
explain as they go along, but deal with the characters or ideas. Some
examples are the stories of Spider Robinson, Gene Wolfe (maybe, the
jury is still out on just what the Torturer series is), and some of
Zelazny's short stories and novels (Eye of Cat, Rose for Ecclesiastes,
etc). It just isn't necessary anymore to explain how FTL drives,
stasis fields, or time travel work to be "science fiction".
Roddenberry once pointed out that Matt Dillon never once explained how
a Colt 45 worked, and so he felt no need to explain how a phaser
worked. The problem with MARS is the so-called "willing suspension of
dis-belief" and the sometimes glaring inconsistencies.

     It looks like I am going off the deep end here, but after trying
to catch up on a full weeks worth of news, that sometimes happens.
'Til we meet at Callahan's.

--
                                   eric
                                   ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 83 7:51:05-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!wivax!apollo!nazgul @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RE: The TARDIS - (nf)

     I saw an old beatup VW in Boston the day before yesterday.
License plate?

                                TARDIS

     I wonder if it was?

                                -nazgul

------------------------------

Date: Mon 31 Oct 83 08:57:34-MST
From: Michi Wada <WADA@SANDIA.ARPA>
Subject: The TARDIS

     I partially disagree with Jerry Donovan's statement about the
Doctor's TARDIS.  While it is true the Doctor stole the TARDIS when it
was in for repairs, I disagree that he stole it when it was in the
shape of the blue British police box.  In the VERY FIRST EPISODE of
Dr. Who the audience finds the Doctor in London during the 1960's.  He
has been there for a long period of time (several months) and his
granddaughter, Susan, has been attending school there.  The Doctor
leaves that time when 2 of Susan's teachers stumble across the TARDIS
and learn it is not an ordinary police box.  The TARDIS travels to the
time of the caveman.  As the Doctor and his granddaughter leave the
TARDIS they both comment that the TARDIS should have changed its shape
and are surprised that the TARDIS has remained in the shape of a
police box.

                                    Michi Wada
                                    Sandia National Labs
                                    Albuquerque, N.M.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 83 11:26 EST
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund.umass-cs@rand-relay.arpa>
Subject: Brainstorm

     I have several technical problems with Brainstorm:

     1) How can you send sensory images over the phone line via
        acoustic couplers?

     2) Either you are a Dualist or a Physicalist. If you are a
        Dualist then it makes no sense to try and record out of the
        body experiences, they occur to the soul and not the body, but
        if you are a Physicalist, then there are no out of the body
        experiences.

     3) If you record senses or emotions, then how did you generate
        the paranoia tape where the listener finds himself as the
        principal actor in the tape?

     4) What was the military interested in?  Why was the plot-line so
        shaky and weak at points?

                                        - steven gutfreund
                                          (the SUN king)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 83 02:19:25 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Question about "Bladerunner"



     I thought of that but they talk about 6 replicants before we (and
Harrison Ford and company) even know about Rachel.  They say that 6
replicants *escape* from off-world.  Rachel has never been off-world.
I really doubt that the 6th is her.  Any other ideas?

ds

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 83 17:29:42 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: 2010:  Odyssey Two

Hi All:

     Here's a message I saw in today's (November 2, 1983) paper, that
I thought you might be interested in:

COMPUTER UNITES "2010" MAKERS

     LOS ANGELES (AP) Writer-director Peter Hyams was faced with a
problem of communicating with author Arthur Clarke when he began work
on the screen adaption of 2010: ODYSSEY TWO, the sequel to 2001: A
SPACE ODYSSEY.

     Clarke lives in Sri Lanka, an island country in the Indian Ocean.
Computers came to the rescue.  Hyams and Clarke set up a
custom-designed link and soon were exchanging files of information and
conducting conversations.

     They've nicknamed their collaborator Pal, after the soulful
computer HAL in 2001.

     Meanwhile, the actor who spoke for HAL in the first movie was
located after a lengthy search.  The Screen Actors Guild and the
British Equity couldn't provide a lead.  The actor, Douglas Rain, was
finally found working on the stage in Canada.

     Rain will return for 2010, which is scheduled to go into
production in January.

--30--

     I for one am a little leary about the choice of Hyams as
director.  He has produced, in my opinion, three bombs--CAPRICORN ONE,
OUTLAND and STAR CHAMBER.  It remains to be seen if working with
(again, my opinion) good material, he will be able to make a good
movie...

     Does anyone know how far they will be going in the reassembling
of the original cast?  Or, how far they will be going in the
reproduction of sets?  Obviously, they will not have to reproduce all
of the sets that appeared in the first movie, considering that many of
the locales (the Clavius base, the site of the Sentinel, the space
station, the Orion clipper, the Aries IB) do not appear in the second
book.  However, the one set that does reappear (the Discovery) is
quite a massive creation, and it will be interesting to see how far
they can duplicate the work that was done in the 1960's...

     Until the next bit of news.

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 2 November 1983 14:46 est
From: TMPLee.DODCSC at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Movie about the 414's?

     Just caught the tail end of a piece (on PM magazine, of all
places) on TV about the 414's.  Appeared to be an interview with the
ringleader who testified to congress.  The reporter commented that
their (the kids) lawyer was negotiating with somebody about making a
movie about the whole thing.  Did anyone catch the rest of the piece
and/or know more about whether that in fact is true?

Ted

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 83 5:34:10-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!mac @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Traveller

     I have a question about TRAVELLER -

     What do you do while in hyperspace (jump space) ?

     Our GM allows us (a crew of 5 on a merchant ship) to attempt
cross-training while in jump space; that is, the captain will teach
the first officer tactics while the first officer teaches the captain
electronics.

     I'm not sure this is a good idea - eventually all of the five
characters will have all the same skills.

     Does anyone out there do something different?  Is ship-board life
in jump space to busy to attempt cross-training?

        On our way to Fulacin, Rhylanor Sector...

        Captain J.T. Altek
        a.k.a
        Jim McParland
        allegra!mac

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Nov 83 0851-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #109
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 109

Today's Topics:
              Books - Piers Anthony & Christoper Anvil &
             Stephen Donaldson (2 msgs) & Norman Spinrad,
                 Query - Groff Conklin OMNIBUS Query,
       Discussion - Private vs. Public Funding of Space Travel,
                    Film - Bladerunner (2 msgs) &
                    Star Trek:  The Motion Picture

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 83 22:36:55-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!sultan!dag @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: DRAGON ON A PEDESTAL by Piers Anthony (Non-Spoiler)

     Someone asked if anyone out here had read DRAGON ON A PEDESTAL
yet.  I have, and will make the following remarks about it:

  Anthony seems to be trying to shake off the sexist image that
  he has acquired.  Very few men are important in the story, and
  none are shown with real powers of their own.  In his attempt
  to be non-sexist, Anthony seems to be falling deeper into the
  morass.

  I Enjoy the XANTH novels -- I don't take them at all seriously.
  The fact that they tend to be somewhat from a male point of view
  does not bother me.  I think that the attempts that Mr. Anthony
  is making to lose the sexist image are brought about by over
  reaction by some readers who insist on taking things seriously.

  The puns are not as fresh or fast in this newest book.  There is
  an author's note at the end of the book that sort-of explains
  why.  I won't spoil the thing for you by telling you what his
  his explanation is.

  The book is enjoyable to those who know and love Xanth, but it
  is not the book to cut your teeth on.  The story is too contrived
  and the characters are too thin to really get the novice interested.
  In the afterward, the reader is told that the next Xanth book will
  come out "in a year or so, not much worse than this one.  In fact,
  if you read this one carefully, you'll have a better notion than I
  do what that one is about, but I'll give you title and description
  anyway:  CREWEL LYE, a Caustic Yarn about an Unkind Untruth."
  Given the above statement of intent, those of us who read the Xanth
  books despite the plots and characterizations, should start a raging
  debate over who the untruth is told by and who it is about, what is
  done about it and who does it, etc.  This way, we can relive the
  "Who is the 'OTHER' in Revenge of the Jedi?" debate.  C'mon folks,
  we only have a year!

                                     Daniel Glasser
                                     ...!decvax!sultan!dag

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 83 20:12:40-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!utzoo!watmath!padpowell@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Need Christopher Anvil Novels/Short Stories.

     To make a very complex story short, I am looking for the complete
collection of short stories/novels by Christopher Anvil.  Is there a
reference work available listing them?

     By the way, there is a modest "finders fee" available to the
persons who can supply some of the novels.

Patrick ("The things I do for friends") Powell

(decvax!genrad!security!linus!utzoo!watmath!watdaisy!wateng!padpowell
 @UCB-VAX)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 83 23:31:48-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!kechkayl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: re:defense of thomas covenant - (nf)

     Or, possibly, the people are just perceptive enough when they
know that they are reading a BAD double trilogy!

                        (Go ahead and Flame, I don't care)
                                Thomas Ruschak

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 83 19:38:06 EDT (Saturday)
From: Heiny.henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: defense of thomas covenant

     "If someone claims a book is boring and verbose, yet another
praises the imagery and sees an intricate underlying structure,
doesn't that raise the possibility that the second person is correct
and the first just isn't sufficiently perceptive? Maybe the people who
are put off by Donaldson's imposing double trilogy would prefer to
read Lucky Starr and the Asteroids?  At least then they would not be
troubled with any symbolism interfering with the plot."

     Not 'sufficiently perceptive' am I?!?!  Hah!  (Take that!)  I
have noticed that it is not a matter of 'perception', but rather
personal taste.  I didn't like the Covenant series, not because of the
'symbolism interfering with the plot', but because I didn't really
enjoy spending 1000+ pages watching TC be a wimp.  Yes, I know he did
some heroic things, and occasionally roused himself from self
loathing/pity.  TC is just too much like Marvin the android for my
taste.  Donaldson has some good ideas (and some bad ones), and can
create good images/plot/meaning when he tries to, but all to often it
seems like he was just trying to meet some daily goal of pages
written.  Other SF writers have produced books just as meaningful and
more interesting without resorting to chronic depression or an
'imposing double trilogy', or to a Lucky Starr format.

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: 29-Oct-83 23:22 PDT
From: RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3
Subject: Re: Spinrad's "The Iron Dream"

     Quite ironic: seems \both/ the nazi-sympathizers and the
anti-nazis wanted "The Iron Dream" banned in West Germany.  For
opposite reasons, of course.

-Rich

------------------------------

Date: 24 October 1983 08:45 cdt
From: Bibbero.PMSDMKT
Subject: A Subway Named Mobius

     Thanks to all you people out there who responded to my inquiry
about TSNM.  It so happens that I have three of the four hardcover
anthologies produced by Groff Conklin, but predictably the "OMNIBUS
... " that contains TSNM is the missing one in my collection.  Tom
Butler says that this book has been reprinted recently by Bonanza
Books of New York.  In my "Books in Print" of the publication date
(1980) I cannot find any such publisher.  There is a Bonanza Press in
Nevada (Carson City I believe) but that is a long way from NYC.  If
anyone can give me a better address for Bonanza Books I would like to
contact them to complete my Groff Conklin Collection with "OMNIBUS ...
" Can you help there, Tom, or anyone else?

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 83 6:45:43-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houca!trc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: the reason govt should not fund space travel

Responses to phs!jtb and Scott Preece on Govt vs Space

     I doubt that we share a common philosophical basis, so I will
present an argument that should appeal to your common sense and/or
sense of justice.  Please bear with me, as I have to lay some ground
work.

     First, understand what a government is: it is the social
institution vested with a monopoly on the right to use of retaliatory
force, within a geographical area.  It may have taken other functions,
but this is fundamental to the definition of government.  (You may not
like this fact, and wish it were otherwise, but it is certainly true
that this is the present case with governments.)  Accepting this, we
have to consider what the nature of force is, and what the government
can justly use that force for.  Having gotten to that point, we can
discuss whether funding space exploration is one of the things a
government can justly do.

     The only fundamental way that force can be used is to attack
human life.  Some important derivative ways include: threat of use of
force, causing pain (torture, beating), expulsion or exile,
imprisonment.  It might seem that imprisonment is not an attack on
human life but in fact imprisonment means that the prisoner is put
under the total control of the jailer, and any attempt to escape is
blocked by threat of death.  Exile requires that the exhaled be
threatened (directly, or by putting him in a remote area from which he
cannot return alive) with death if he should try to return.  Torture
uses pain, which is a direct death threat - this threat goes deeper
than one's consciousness.

     Thus, when you consider whether something is just for a
government to do, you must ask yourself whether it would be just for
the government to back up that action with torture and death.  To take
a practical example, consider a man who does not agree that it is just
that he should be forced to send his child to school.  He refuses to
do so.  He refuses to surrender his child to authorities.  The
authorities threaten physical force.  He replies with equal threats,
and cannot be convinced by reason.  The authorities now have a choice
- agree that the man is right about their law, or use direct force to
fulfill their ends, backed by torture or death.  They can imprison him
in order to achieve their ends, but they have to use direct force to
do this.

     In most cases, there is one simple question that you can ask
yourself to get a common sense answer to whether something is proper
for a government to do.  "Is this thing important enough that the
government should be allowed, if necessary, to beat a person in order
to get it, or even kill him?".  (Applied to the case of preventing a
man from murdering another, the answer is yes, for example.)

     Now apply this to the $10 that you would take from everyone to
pay for space exploration.  "Is getting $10 from someone for the space
effort important enough that the government should be allowed, if
necessary, to beat a person in order to get it, or even kill him?"

     I say NO, it is not, and that this makes any arguments about what
is practical irrelevant.

     (In fact, I still reject the argument of practicality - my small
amount of observation of history and politics inclines me to believe
that backing any effort with the government's *force* allows the
effort to become corrupt and lazy.  And then there are considerations
of the effects of the regulation intended to prevent corruption that
almost inevitably goes with with a government backed monopoly.  The
Anti-trust laws fall into this category, and yes, I would abolish
them.  See "The Myth of Antitrust" [author forgotten].  In most cases
the "serious abuses" amounted to either government backed real abuses,
or companies complaining that a competitor was being too efficient.
Hardly an abuse from the consumer's point of view!)

        Tom Craver
        houca!trc

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 83  20:11 EST (Wed)
From: Mijjil the Hutt (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: Question about "Bladerunner"

     Yes, Deckard's "boss" says that 6 replicants (read "skin jobs")
escaped the off-world colonies and came to earth - it is my contention
that the 6th replicant was never found/"retired" to leave things, as
always, open for the 20th century replicant - the SEQUEL.

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 83 12:12:12 EST
From: Saul Jaffe <Jaffe@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: re:Bladerunner

     It was my impression after seeing the movie (and I could be wrong
on this) is that after the Tyrell Corportaion created the first series
of replicants they discovered that there was a flaw and they could be
distinguished from a human by certain test procedures.

     The Tyrell Corporation however, continued their project and
developed Rachel, a second series of replicant that could not be
distinguished from a human being.

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  2 Nov 83 14:55:49 PST
From: ucivax!bork%uucp.uci-750a@Rand-Relay

     I am forwarding this from the Whimsey bboard here on our Vax.  I
thought sflovers might like this.

                Dave Godwin, UC Irvine

Forwarded message begins:
__________________________________________________________________

To: whimsey@Uci-750a
Subject: Writer's block
From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@uci-750a>


     This is from Danse Macabre, p. 346, by Stephen King.

                                -----

     It was told that Paramount Pictures had a preproduction
conference of Big Name Science Fiction Writers prior to shooting on
Star Trek: The Movie.  The purpose of the conference was to toss
around ideas for a mission that would be big enough to fly the
Starship Enterprise from the cathode tube to the Silver Screen...and
BIG was the word that the exec in charge of the conference kept
emphasizing.  One writer suggested that the Enterprise might be sucked
into a black hole (the Disney writers scarfed that idea up about three
months later).  The Paramount exec didn't that that was big enough.
Another suggested that Kirk, Spock and company might discover a pulsar
that was in fact a living organism.  Still not big enough, the writer
was admonished; the writers were again reminded that they should thing
BIG.  According to the tale, [Harlan] Ellison sat silent, doing a slow
burn...only with Harlan, a slow burn lasts only about five seconds.
Finally, he spoke up.  "The Enterprise," he said, "goes through an
interstellar warp, the great-grandaddy of all interstellar warps.
It's transported over a googol of light-years in the space of seconds
and comes out at a huge gray wall.  The wall marks the edge of the
entire universe.  Scotty rigs full-charge ion blasters which breach
the wall so they can see what's beyond the edge of everything.
Peering through at them, bathed in an incredible white light, is the
face of God Himself."

     A brief period of silence followed this.  Then the exec said,
"It's not big enough.  Didn't I just tell you guys to think really
BIG?"
...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 83 0822-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #110
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 110

Today's Topics:
                    Query - Looking for a book? &
                  Looking for Contradiction in Terms,
                 Music - Old Time Religion (3 msgs),
                            Comics - MARS,
  Discussion - Public vs. Private Funding of Space Travel (5 msgs),
        Television - The People & Dr. Who & Hitchhiker's Guide

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 83 14:19:05-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!hogpc!hogpd!jrrt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Looking for a book?

>From uucp Thu Nov  3 15:06 EST 1983

>From ecl Thu Nov  3 09:49:50 1983 remote from lznv

   Got your mail. If you wish, could you post the following to the
Net:

     If you're having problems finding a particular SF book at your
local bookstore (as in the complaint about Bantam and SUNDIVER), try

                F&SF Book Company
                P.O.Box 415
                Staten Island NY 10302
                (212-981-3526)

     They are mostly a wholesale distributor, but will sell to anyone.
There is a postage and handling charge, but they give good discounts
for large orders (10% for over $10, 20% for over $25, 25% for over
$100) and have virtually all SF/fantasy/horror that is in print,
including specialty publishers (well, sometimes they're back-ordered
on some items).  Many of us in NJ use them on a fairly regular basis.
Call or write them for further info.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1983 10:08-PST
Subject: Looking for contradiction in terms.
From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow (GEOFF@SRI-CSL)

     On this mornings news, I heard two new contradiction in terms:

          "Peace keeping force."                   (Lebanon)
          "Non-Political Government [installed]."  (Grenada)

     This inspired me.  I wish to collect as many of these as
possible.  The other two that I have:

     "Military Intelligence."                (Rocky & Bullwinkle)
   "Recreational Drugs."                   (Recreational espionage)

     If you can think or know of others, please send them to
Geoff@SRI-CSL.  If you would send them in the form of:

             "Contradiction." <TAB> (Apropos/Like/Source)

     I'll make a complete list and redistribute it to interested
parties.

Geoff

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1983 10:49:55 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler)
Subject: Old-Time Religion

     In response to Will Martin's request, here are some of the
"unofficial" (i.e., faanish) verses to "Old Time Religion".  These are
taken from the November, 1983, issue of the Newsletter of the
Philadelphia Folk Song Society, to which they were submitted by singer
Dan Ruvin.

CHORUS:
    Gimme that old-time religion,
    Gimme that old-time religion,
    Gimme that old time religion,
    It's good enough for me.

1)  We will pray to Aphrodite.
    She's cute but a little flighty
    In her flimsy see-through nightie,
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)
2)  We will pray to Father Zeus
    In his temple we'll hang loose
    Eating roast beef au jus,
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)
3)  We will pray just like the Druids
    Drinking strange fermented fluids
    Running naked through the wo-ods,
    And that's good enough for me.
[Alternative third line:  Running naked but for wo-ads]
           (Chorus)
4)  My roommate worships Buddha.
    There is no idol cuter.
    Comes in copper, bronze, and pewter,
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)
5)  We will worship Sun Myung Moon
    Though we know he is a goon.
    All our money he'll have soon.
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)
6)  We will pray to Zarathustra,
    We will pray just like we us'ta.
    I'm a Zarathustra Booster,
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)
7)  We will go down to the temple,
    Sit on mats woven of hemp(le),
    Try to set a good exemple [sic],
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)
8)  We will finally pray to Jesus,
    From our sins we hope he frees us,
    Eternal life he guarantees us,
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

     These are all the verses I've got, but I'm sure there are others.
And now, for a matching question: Does anyone have all the words to
the parody version of "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire...," which
begins

"Christians roasting on an open fire,
 Lions nipping at their toes,..."

     After all, Christmas is coming soon, and I want to be prepared.

Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 83 12:08:14 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Old Time Religion

     Ok folks, since I want this song for myself, hows about all you
filksingers send me your favorite verses (or all that you know) and I
will gather them together and repost them to the list. I think a month
should be long enough for everyone to get to a tty with their memories
or songbooks intact.

     My address is quint@ru-blue.arpa

     I have no idea how to get here from places not on the arpanet;
good luck all.

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1983 0905-EST
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: more verses

     I heard some more verses of "Gimme that old time religion" on our
local folk station, sung by Pete Seeger (I think). The ones I remember
are:

Let us pray to Zarathustra
Let us pray just like we useta
I'm a Zarathustra boosta
It's good enough for me.

Let us pray like the Egyptians
Build pyramids to put our crypts in
Fill our subways with inscriptions
It's good enough for me.

Let us pray just like the Druids
Let us drink fermented fluids
Go running naked through the woo-ads
It's good enough for me.

/jlr

------------------------------

Date: Wed 2 Nov 83 22:29:51-EST
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: MARS

     Someone mentioned MARS. American Flagg!, published by the same
company, is the closest thing to SF I've ever seen in a continuing
comic series, much better than MARS. It's a one man production by
Howard Chaykin, who collaborated on several stories with Chip Delaney.
Great fun.

                        Imperious Rocks!
                                Jacob

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 83 22:06:39-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!utah-cs!shebs @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Public vs. Private Space Exploration

     Ye gods, I really hate to get into this in net.sf-lovers too, but
Tom started it, so -

     One of the problems with depending on a laissez-faire system is
that anything which has only long-range benefits doesn't get done.
How many companies would have done any space work 25 years ago?  If
the govt hadn't funded something back then, we might still be
experimenting with suborbital rockets.  I'd say the govt has done a
very good job, and I'm willing to let it continue...

     I notice that despite Tom's use of the emotionally-loaded words
"beating" and "killing", that such punishment for breaking the law is
rare - even for major crimes.  I also notice that no one seems to be
resisting taxes because a small portion is spent on the space program
- so either everybody has decided, through a rational process, that
the expense is justified, or else everybody is irrational, therefore
has no rights, therefore it's ok to take their money.  In fact, most
of the tax resistance seems to be against the expenditures for
"defense".  Oh well, I guess we're all just irrational, and doomed to
be enslaved by the first decent AI project (I predict within my
lifetime, and that's a conservative estimate - the optimistic ones say
25 years).

                                           Irrationally yours,
                                           stan the l.h.
                                           utah-cs!shebs

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 83 8:24:13-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!drux3!hogpc!houca!trc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: govt moving from sf to politics

     If people want to continue the "govt in space" discussion, lets
move it to net.politics.  I will respond there to Stan, etc.

        Tom Craver
        houca!trc

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 83 6:56:28-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!linus!utzoo!utcsstat!laura@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Public vs. Private Funding of Space Exploration

     The argument "people wouldn't fund things where there are no
immediate gains" may be specious. If I didn't have to pay any taxes, I
could spend a *lot* more money on the space program. So could a lot of
people I know. There might be *MORE* money for NASA under this scheme.

     The other thing to consider is that *one* of the reasons that
companies go for short term gains rather than long term, is that if
you give the government enough lead-in time there are numerous cases
where a poor company has sat down to reap the benefits of their long
term gains and found the tax-man has got there ahead of them and is
proceeding to tax the hell out of the enterprise.

     It kind of takes the edge off the victory, now, doesn't it?

     But what you are actually saying is that people ought to have
foresight, don't, and so we need a government to be the foresight of
the people. I think that we need to teach people to have more
foresight. And you can't do that while also treating them as morons
who are incapable of foresight.

     I'm not all that convinced that governments have any more
foresight than the next election anyway.

Laura Creighton
utcsstat!laura

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 83 9:57:47-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!alice!rabbit!jj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Private vs. Public Funding of Space Travel

     I AM convinced that governments have MUCH less foresight (at
least democratic ones) than anything else.  I don't think you put it
strongly enough, Laura.

     Shouldn't this argument be in net.politics (where there is a
discussion of earmarking tax money going on right now)?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 83 21:48:28-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Private vs. Public Funding of Space Travel

     That was a joke, right???  That has to be the strangest
definition of government I've ever heard!  Besides, shouldn't this
stuff be on net.politics/ space/jokes/anything but here?

                                els[Eric Strobel]
                                pur-ee!Physics:els

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 1983 11:14:44 PST
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: RE: The People---movie

      I think the movie WAS called "The People".  It starred William
Shatner and Kim ( Miri from the Star Trek episode of the same name )
Darby.  She was a new schoolteacher who noticed all the children in a
rural community walked with a shuffle.  She and Shatner, the town doc,
discovered that they were told from infancy not to let both feet leave
the ground at once.  The reason is because they'll start flying, since
they inherited assorted powers from the original settlers.  I forget
if the original ones had crashed, or fled to Earth for some reason.

     I think this was an ABC movie-of-the-week, about 1975.

Steve


(MODERATOR'S NOTE: My thanks also to "Not.Logged-In@ CMU-CS-A
(Davis@Martin-B) for responding with the same information.)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 83 11:21:46 EST
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: The Doctor's Granddaughter

     Say what?

     How did a visiting time-lord get an earthly granddaughter?  I
remember the character of Susan from the two Peter Cushing Doctor Who
movies, but once I started seeing actual episodes of the series (ROBOT
through THE CONQUEST OF TIME are all that the local station shows), I
assumed that the movies took liberties with the characters for the
sake of the non-serial nature of the films.

     As I haven't (and don't intend to) read any of the paperback
adaptations, I remain ignorant as to Susan's actual relation to the
Doctor.  Was she adopted?  Someone please explain.

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 83 7:53:35-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxm!gjphw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Rerun of Hitchhiker's Guide in Chicago

     Unfortunately, this notice applies to interested people in the
greater Chicago, Illinois area only.

     WTTW-TV, Channel 11, will rebroadcast the BBC production of
Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy on Tuesday and
Wednesday, Nov. 1 and 2.  This showing will require two parts, with
the first two hours running on Tuesday and the remaining 1.5 hours on
Wednesday evening beginning at 10:30 pm CST.

     So, if you have not seen HGttG before, or would like to see it
again in a shorter span of time (it was first shown locally in half
hour installments), November brings a golden opportunity.

  Enjoy!

                               Patrick Wyant
                               AT&T Bell Laboratories (Naperville, IL)
                               *!ihuxm!gjphw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 83 0836-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #111
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 111

Today's Topics:
       Film - Brainstorm & Dune & The Star Wars Saga (2 msgs) &
                             Bladerunner,
           Books - Spider Robinson and Michael McCollum and
           Charles Sheffield and Jack Williamson (1 msg) &
              Gene Wolfe and George R.R. Martin (1 msg)
     Harlan Ellison and Zenna Henderson and L. Sprage de Camp and
        Catherine de Camp and Lin Carter and Robert Howard and
                             "Thriller" &
           Douglas Adams (3 msgs) & John W. Campbell, Jr. &
                            Stanislaw Lem

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 3 November 1983, 12:19-PST
From: Reynolds@Rand-Unix at MIT-MC
Subject: Brainstorm

"Date: Tue, 25 Oct 83 11:26 EST
From: Steven Gutfreund
<gutfreund.umass-cs@rand-relay.arpa>
Subject: Brainstorm

"I have several technical problems with Brainstorm:

"1) How can you send sensory images over the phone line via
    acoustic couplers?"

     VERY sloooowly.  I agree, this strained my willful suspension of
disbelief.

"2) Either you are a Dualist or a Physicalist. If you are a
    Dualist then it makes no sense to try and record out of the
    body experiences, they occur to the soul and not the body, but
    if you are a Physicalist, then there are no out of the body
    experiences."

     Only a Dualist would propose that there are only two schools of
thought.

"3) If you record senses or emotions, then how did you generate
    the paranoia tape where the listener finds himself as the
    principal actor in the tape?"

     Simple: take some random "unperson", put the recording helmet on
them, then torture them to death.

"4) What was the military interested in?  Why was the plot-line so
    shaky and weak at points?"

     There are people in the military, just like in industry, who
think that any fancy high-tech gadget is just what they need for X,
regardless of its true applicability.  I thought the plot was fairly
straight-forward and simple to follow.

     There is a good article on the special effects in Brainstorm in
the current issue of Cinefex (as well as articles on The Right Stuff
and Twilight Zone).

     How did others feel about the use of the wide-screen/
narrow-screen format change?  I found it effective, I was vaguely
aware of the changes in the "feel" of the different scenes, but did
not realize exactly what was happening until about one third of the
way into the film.  Apparently the original concept was for this to be
a showcase for the 60 FPS "Showscan" format, that the shift in reality
level would be implemented by increasing the frame rate.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1983 1257-PST
Subject: The DUNE movie
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)

     I picked up a freebie publication called "The Movie Magazine" a
few days ago, which I had never seen before -- it's a collection of
reviews and ads, probably a studio-supported advertising gimmick of
some kind.

     Anyway, there was some discussion of the DUNE movie on the last
page that I thought SFL readers might find of interest.  First off,
there is a DUNE fan club address, and this says that sending them your
name and address will get you more info in the future:

DUNE FAN CLUB
1680 North Vine
Suite 900
Hollywood, CA  90028

     Info on the movie is sparse, just a column on the production.
Some extracts:

     Science fiction fans...will have to wait until December 1984 to
see the epic.  Principal photography was completed this past
September, but post-production work (special effects and editing) will
take a full year.  DUNE was shot in Mexico, where cast and crew took
over all eight soundstages at Churubusco Studios, plus three backlot
sets, two "subsidiary" locations within Mexico City (including the
city dump, called by some crew members the "dead dog dump"), and the
Salamayuca desert near Juarez.  And how will [they] render the
blue-within-blue Fremen eyes?  By computer -- frame by frame.
Creature creator Carlo Rimbaldi (who did the rubber baby aliens in
CLOSE ENCOUNTERS and ET himself) is in Los Angeles working on the
Guild Navigator and great sandworms.

     Once DUNE vacates those Churubusco soundstages, CONAN II will
move right in...  [goes on with some discussion of the Conan show on
the Universal Studios Tour].

That's about it...

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 83 8:44:26-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!bbncca!lkaufman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Query: Time Interval Between TESB and RoTJ

     Does anyone know how much time elapsed between the end of "The
Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi"?

Thanks,

        Larry Kaufman
        ...!decvax!bbncca!lkaufman (USENET)
        lkaufman@bbn-unix  (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 83 15:46:16-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!nmtvax!slj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re:  TESB/RotJ Interval

     I don't know what the time interval between TESB and RotJ was.

     I recall that at the beginning of RotJ, C-3P0 says that he's
worried because Lando and Chewbacca went in there, apparently a
reasonably long time ago, and didn't come back out.  Also, it was
apparently long enough time for Luke to become a little more
proficient in the ways of the force.

     On the other hand, as the Millenium Falcon and Luke's X-Wing lift
off of Tatooine, Leia says, "Hurry, the alliance should be assembled."
I don't know how long it takes an alliance to assemble, but
considering it started no later than everyone leaving Hoth in TESB, it
probably wasn't more than a few months.

     If I was forced to guess, I'd suspect something between two and
six months.

    Question: why did Lando/Chewie "go in" but Lando is alone in
Jabba's palace?  How did Leia join up with Chewie, who we saw at the
end of TESB running off to fetch Han?

     Question: why does Jabba the Hutt have such huge doors on his
palace?  They didn't keep the Luke Skywalker out, but if you say he
used the force to open them, consider this: Leia and Chewie came
wandering in just as casually as Luke did.  Leia didn't, at that time,
know the force was strong in her, and, strong as Chewie may be, he
can't lift *that* door up.

                              The 'S' is not for 'Skywalker'
                              S. Luke Jones

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Nov 83 11:45:09 EST
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-vgr>
Subject: Bladerunner

     But Harrison Ford could tell that Rachel was a replicant using
the Volker-Craig (whatever?) test.  He then turned to the Tyrell
executive and said "She doesn't know, does she?"

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1983 19:52:16 EST (Thursday)
From: Ben Littauer <littauer@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: reviews

     Picked up four relatively new books last weekend:

                    Spider Robinson, "Mindkiller"
                    Michael McCollum, "Life Probe"
               Charles Sheffield, "My Brother's Keeper"
                      Jack Williamson, "Manseed"

     I've read the first two already.  Mindkiller is the usual
Robinson: good writing, a little too much fondness for punning, and
very decent handling of hard moral and ethical problems.  Deals with
an old Niven favorite, with credit given, namely "wireheading".
Definitely a good read.  Buy it.

     The second, Life Probe, is by an author I'd never seen before,
though it says that a previous novel "A Greater Infinity" has also
been published by Del Rey.  This is a pure "hard science" first
contact novel.  "The Makers", an alien race somewhat more advanced
than humanity, send out a "Life Probe" to find alien (to them)
intelligences, in the hope of further advancing their own sciences
through a sort of synergistic effect when different intelligences
meet.  The probes finds us, and the book deals with how we react to
that.  It, too, is well written, though not as flowing as Robinson.
It reminds me of Hogan, a little, though not quite as dry as his early
stuff.  Plenty of politics, which makes it reasonably believable.
Also a good read, but buy the Robinson first.  If anybody has read "A
Greater Infinity", I'd appreciate a review, especially if you've also
read this one.

     I'm halfway through the Sheffield, and enjoying it.  It's less
science-fiction and more adventure/thriller with only incidental SF.
So far so good, more later.

     If anyone out there is still reading the new books which seem to
appear on the local bookstores' shelves, please do send in reviews and
comments - I find it hard to cough up three buck a copy for stuff I
know nothing about.

                                               -ben-

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 1983 1635-EST
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: "Citadel of the Autarch" and "Fevre Dream"

     All you people who have been waiting for the last volume of "The
Book of the New Sun" to come out before reading any of it no longer
have any excuse.  The fourth volume, "The Citadel of the Autarch", is
now out in paperback.  The previous books have all been nominated for
Hugos and Nebulas.  The only reason they haven't swept all the awards
is that the individual books are only pieces of the whole.  Read them
in order, and fairly soon after one another, because Wolfe has no
compunctions about referring to events that took place eight hundred
pages before.  I wish someone could nominate the entire series for an
award, for it would be a welcome change from stuff like "Foundation's
Edge" or "Friday".  These are competent books, but they are clearly
minor compared to Asimov's and Heinlein's earlier works.  Wolfe, on
the other hand, is at the height of his powers.  I won't try to
describe the books, since others have already done that, but suffice
it to say that Wolfe takes the setting and tone of Vance's "The Dying
Earth" (he acknowledges the debt) and fills it with a depth of
language and storytelling style that I have never seen in any other
author.

     Another new paperback worth more than its price is "Fevre Dream"
by George R. R. Martin.  The setting is the Mississippi in the mid
1800's, the heyday of the riverboats.  A rambunctious but
down-on-his-luck steamboat skipper is made an odd offer by a pale,
mysterious stranger.  He will pay for the construction of the grandest
boat the River had ever seen, in return for the skipper's cooperation
in a quest.  The stranger is a vampire, and his quest is to find the
others of his kind and unite them in an effort to finally make peace
with humanity.  What better way to search a continent, than by
cruising the endless waterways of the Mississippi and it tributaries?
Both river life and the vampires are well drawn.  For instance, the
boats were all woodburning, and so sealed their own fate by denuding
of timber all the riverbanks of the Midwest.  Or, if vampires are
immortal and have the strength of ten, then why haven't they taken
over the world?  Because the strength of vampire infants makes
childbirth a terrible process, which kills the mother as often as not.
This sort of background detail makes "Fevre Dream" a very solid
adventure novel.

/jlr

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 83 20:13:28-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Zenna H, The Last D. V., etc. - (nf)

>From the World Fantasy Con (Chicago, 28-30 Oct)

     Harlan Ellison has turned "The Last Dangerous Visions" in to the
Publisher. It will come out in three volumes early next year. It will
include a previously unknown "People" story, found among Zenna
Henderson's effects after her death. Ellison also read the first
11,000 words of a new novella "Bring on the Dancing Frogs."  (It needs
about 2000 more words to finish it up.) It sounded really good (a
vampire story that will have Falwell up in arms) and will come out in
the next issue of "Whispers."

     L. Sprague and Catherine Crook DeCamp gave a presentation on
*Dark Valley Destiny*, a massive work on Robert E. Howard. They spent
six years going through everything associated with REH, making several
trips to Texas. The beginning, analyzing his childhood, was written by
Catherine and a child psychologist.  LSDeC and Lin Carter went through
his writings with a fine-tooth comb, so to speak. Howard fans will
want to check out this book.

     It was very book-oriented. The "film program" consisted of four
pieces from an old TV show called "Thriller." There was a rare
book/manuscript auction and a medium-size art show. Some interesting
panels: Remembering "Weird Tales" w/ Wellman, Williamson, Leiber, Karl
Edward Wagner(mod); New Authors in Fantasy w/ Hodgell, Wrede, Betsy
Wollheim (mod), some others; Dialogue between Ellison and Barclay
Shaw; A Writer talks to Editors, Publishers: Charles Grant(mod), Ian
Ballantine, Susan Allison, Lou Aronica, publisher of Tor.

Next year: Ottawa.

                                   Wombat
                                   ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 83 14:13:14-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!ramsdell @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The base is thirteen

     We know that the answer is 42, and the question is "What is 6
times 9?"  So the base is 13.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 83 22:07:01-EST (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!nmtvax!student@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The base is thirteen

     While attending school here I have run across many people who
stated that 9 X 6 = 42 base 13 and understanding that this came from
Hitchhiker which I had not yet read. Well I finially read the trilogy
last weekend (No, I don't fool around with Science Fiction.) When I
read the last (third) book it quite clearly stated that we could never
know both the question and the answer at the same time. Remember in
book two Authur Dent came across the question while playing scrabble
TWO MILLION YEARS before the Earth got done calculating the question
for the mice. Thus you can't consider this a serious question.

--

Sincerely;
Greg Hennessy
..ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!student

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 83 9:18:41-PST (Fri)
From: edjames @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The base is thirteen

     Even though he used the scrabble chits 2 m. years before the
earth was destroyed, Arthur Dent was from a time when the experiment
was NEARLY finished.  Thus (by the book's reasoning), he still had the
answer engraved in his brain matrix (?), which is why the mice wanted
to buy it from him.

                                        --ed
                                    ucbvax!edjames

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 83 10:26:00 EST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Probability Drives
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Parc-Maxc.Arpa>

     I seem to recall an old space opera by John Campbell that was
reissued (I think by Ace) about 10 years ago.  It was called
'Uncertainty' or 'The Ultimate Weapon' or some such.  Basically it was
the old hack about an bug-eyed alien invasion (in this case from
Mira), and just as the aliens are about to conquer the world, a lone
inventor makes a huge serendipitous leap in technology (beyond that of
even the aliens) and saves the world.  (Terra Uber Alles!)  The aliens
realize their mistake and everybody peacefully coexists happily ever
after.  In this case the weapons were based on the laws of
uncertainty.  I don't recall much more, so I'll try and scrounge out
my copy at home.

                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1983  22:43 EST (Fri)
From: Arturo Perez@MIT-EECS <UC.ART@MIT-EECS at MIT-ML>
Subject: Probability doodads

     I am not sure if a probability drive is employed in Stanislaw
Lem's Cyberiad but I do know that he uses probability weapons to kill
dragons.  You might try looking in there.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Nov 83 0821-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #112
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 11 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 112

Today's Topics:
           Books - Douglas Adams (8 msgs) & Isaac Asimov &
                 David Brin (5 msgs) & M.A. Foster &
        David Gerrold & John D. MacDonald & Michael McCollum &
        Michael Moorcok & Jesse Peel & H. Beam Piper (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Nov 83 10:50 EST
Subject: Douglas Adams & Monty Python
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Parc-Maxc.Arpa>

     I noticed the name Douglas Adams in the credits to a Monty Python
episode (from c. 1974) the other day.  I wasn't watching too closely
(on my way to the fridge) and didn't catch the actual connection
(something about looking up silly words).  Is this person the same as
The Douglas Adams of the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy?

                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Nov 83 11:19 PST
From: Morrill.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: The base is thirteen

Re: "Even though he used the scrabble chits 2 m. years before the
earth was destroyed, Arthur Dent was from a time when the experiment
was NEARLY finished.  Thus (by the book's reasoning), he still had the
answer engraved in his brain matrix (?), which is why the mice wanted
to buy it from him."

     What people seem to forget is that the Golgafringams (spellings
off by a mile but I think you know who I mean) landed on and populated
the Earth while the cavemen died off.  Since the cavemen were meant to
be part of the programming of the Earth, and the Golgafringams were
not, then the question to the ultimate answer of 42 which was about to
be found just five minutes before the Earth was destroyed, was wrong.
Therefore, the question in Arthur Dent's brain, which may have
actually been 6 X 9, was wrong.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 83 14:31:11-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!marla @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The base is thirteen

     The big problem which everyone seems to have forgotten is that
the entire experiment was voided by the crash.  The original
experiment called for the evolution of the caveman (at least that's
the impression I got).  Instead, a shipload of hairdressers, middle
management types, etc. took over the planet and wiped out the cavemen.
This leaves the probability that the final results, namely Arthur
Dent, are not correct.

Marla S. Baer
!ssc-vax!marla

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Nov 83 3:15:33 EST
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-vgr>
Subject: Scrabble tiles and Arthur's Brain

     We knew the answer was in Arthur's brain because Marvin could see
it there.  He just never told anyone because they didn't ask him.

     ...And besides, he knew that "They weren't going to like it."

     I'm so depressed.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 83 0:26:51-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: The base is thirteen - (nf)

     We know that Arthur has the question in his brain patterns
because Marvin saw it there. Marvin may have also seen it in Trilliums
brain pattern. It could not be "What is 6 times 9" because if it was
then Arthur would know both the question and the answer at the same
time (quite impossible).

     Marvin must then know both the question and the answer. Perhaps
that is what gave him his unique personality.

John Eaton
hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 83 7:20:05-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!ables @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams & Monty Python

     Douglas Adams did some work with the Python troupe once.  As he
said in a TV interview when he was here a couple of years ago, it
consisted of a few ideas being passed around over lunch.  He didn't
*REALLY* work with them in the sense of going somewhere (studio or
such place) and writing or shooting scenes.  He merely was an
acquaintance of one or more of them.  As to his name in this
particular case, I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't doubt that it is
his.  It may be one of those silly credits that just needs a name and
since they knew him, they stuck his there.

King
(ables@utexa-11.ARPA , ...!ut-ngp!ables.UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 83 1:11:10-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!rigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: The base is thirteen - (nf)

     But the answer was embedded in Dent's brain since he was part of
the experiment.  His travelling back in time didn't change that.
Also, Marvin saw the answer in his brain, but didn't think anyone
really wanted him to say what it was.

     Actually, it seems to me that the mice-experiment was screwed up
by the arrival of the Golgrafrincham (sic) Ark B.

                Carl
                ..!ctvax!uokvax!rigney
                ..!duke!uok!uokvax!rigney

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 83 21:59:59-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!rene @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: The base is thirteen - (nf)

     The impossibility of knowing both the question and the answer to
life, the universe, and everything is only a theory, possibly put
forward by the Hitchhiker's guide to increase sales.

                        "a devoted believer of the second coming
                         of the great prophet Zarquan (we know
                         exactly when he returns ...)"
                                - rene
--
Arpa:   rene.umcp-cs@CSNet-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!rene

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1983 1337-PST
Subject: Robots of Dawn
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>

     Robots of Dawn, the third Robot novel by Issac Asimov, is now out
in hardback ($15.95).

                                Alan

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 83 9:17:04-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxe!burton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Tides of Kithrup

     I was looking at the new books advertised in the back of my copy
of "Startide Rising", and noticed that David Brin has two books
advertised: "Sundiver" and "Tides of Kithrup". The odd thing is,
"Tides of Kithrup" and "Startide Rising" have identical numbers except
that the latter has a '-1' tacked on the end. Sounds like "Tides of
Kithrup" was the original title of the book, and Bantam never bothered
to change their advertisements to correspond to the new title (not
even in the book itself). Can anyone confirm this?

Doug Burton
ATT-CP IN
inuxe!burton

P.S. For those of you looking for 'Sundiver', it appears that the only
way to get it is to find it in a used bookstore or order it yourself
direct from Bantam books. B. Dalton in Indianapolis told me that none
of their distributors have it anymore, and Walden ordered it for me
six weeks ago and it hasn't shown up yet (apparently publishers don't
like shipping books to retail outlets unless there is a big order, so
they are waiting until this particular Walden bookstore orders enough
Bantam books to justify shipping). Dalton CAN'T order from the
publisher, and Walden never seems to be very successful at it.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 83 13:14:17-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Sundiver

     I got a copy of Sundiver at Crown Books.  So it's still available
from distributors (Crown didn't have it last time I checked) and you
ought to be able to get a copy at any reasonable-sized bookstore...

--

In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci
UUCP:   {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris.umcp-cs@CSNet-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 83 14:41:53-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ulysses!smb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Tides of Kithrup

     I found a copy of Sundiver about six weeks ago.  No problem; just
walked into a bookstore and there it was, just sitting there.  Gee --
do you think all the publicity on the net worked that well....?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 83 19:28:40-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Tides of Kithrup - (nf)

     The Illini Union bookstore here at the University of Illinois in
Urbana- Champaign just successfully ordered 8 copies of Sundiver.
Unfortunately, I don't know who they ordered from.

     Brin published a small part of Startide Rising in Analog about
two years ago as the short story "The Tides of Kithrup".  So I suspect
that that was the original working title of the novel as well.  But
even if you read the short story, you have read only an insignificant
amount of the whole novel, so don't let that put you off.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 83 14:52:04-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxr!lew @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: availibility of "Sundiver"

     I obtained a copy of "Sundiver", by David Brin, at a B. Dalton
Bookseller store in Glen Elyn IL last night. They also had "Startide
Rising". They ALSO had Steven Brams' "Superior Beings" (for about 17
bucks).

        Lew Mammel, Jr. ihuxr!lew

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 83 11:35:46-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!jsw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: M.A. Foster

     I have read several books (all Daw, I think) by M.A. Foster,
including The Gameplayers of Zan, The Warriors of Dawn, Waves, The
Morphodite, and Transformer, and highly recommend them. I would
appreciate any comments on the following:

     1) Does anyone know where I might obtain a copy of The Day of the
Klesh, the third book in the Gameplayers-Warriors sequence, although
it was supposedly written first. I tried the publisher and it is out
of print.

     2) Does anyone know of any other works by M.A. Foster, including
short stories, etc. in magazines ?

     3) Does anyone know anything about who M.A. Foster is ? Nowhere
in, on, or about any of the books does it say what M.A. stands for or
give any biographical information about the author. I had the
impression while reading The Gameplayers of Zan that the author is
female. Its hard to describe exactly why, but the character
development and portrayal of female characters was uncommonly good. It
occurred to me that M.A. Foster may by either a pen-name or just an
attempt to conceal the sex of the first name from borderline-sexist SF
readers who won't always pick up a book by an unknown female author.
Does anyone know the facts ?

                                  - John Soltes, ...hogpc!jsw

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 1983 14:43:21-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: John Scherer's story query

     -"rich uncle willing a time-travel belt"- sounds like David
Gerrold's THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF, book-length (barely) novel
published in 1973 and for some reason nominated for a Hugo. (It
predates Varley's Eight Worlds and Bradley's more [daring] Darkover
novels, so may have been considered controversial enough to be good.)
As I recall, he winds up obtaining some isolated location and meeting
him/herself in the hundreds. (How he avoids being bored with the nth
repetition of a conversation wasn't covered.) Am not sure whether the
justification for the [female editions] was alternate worlds or simply
the cumulative effect of his meddling with the time stream.


(MODERATOR'S NOTE:  My thanks to the following people for responding
with the same information on this subject:

Woods.PA@PARC-MAXC
Don Lindsay, LINDSAY%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C
Ben Littover, littover@BBN-UNIX
Dave Axler, AXLER.Upenn-1100@RAND-RELAY
Jacob, JACOB@CMU-CS-C

Thanks for all of your responses.  They are truely appreciated.)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 1983  13:09 EST (Wed)
From: Stephen R. Balzac <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Anyone know title/author?

     I'm not certain, but it sounds like The Girl, the Gold Watch, and
Everything, by John D. MacDonald.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 83 12:18:40-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!yale-com!leichter @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Michael McCollum

     Re: Michael McCollum's two books.  I've read both Life Probe, and
the earlier A Greater Infinity.  Both are good, though not top-notch.
McCollum has a solid if unspectacular style; comparing him to Hogan is
apt.  Some Hal Clement is in a similar style, as is some old Clarke.
However, McCollum is more interested in the people and politics than
these other writers.

     A Greater Infinity is a "time war" story.  The protagonist
unexpectedly finds himself drawn into a battle.  It's been a while
since I read it and I don't remember the details off-hand; however, I
enjoyed it enough to pick up Life Probe on the basis of the author's
name (and the plot, as described on the cover - but that was
secondary).  BTW, the cover blurb on Infinity tells you almost nothing
about the book; it sounds exciting and all, but actually the
impression it gives is appropriate to less than the first 1/4 of the
book.

     On Leichter's 1-10 scale, where anything below 3 isn't worth
reading unless you are desperate, I'd give McCollum a solid 7 to 7.5,
and hope he continues to produce and improve.

                                    -- Jerry
             decvax!yale-comix!leichter leichter@yale

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Nov 83 14:34 EST
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs@CSNet-Relay>
Subject: (query) Michael Moorcock

     Could someone send me the list of books in the Elric of
Melniborne (sp?)  series that was mentioned recently. I believe it
ends with "Stormbringer".

                        - Steve (the SUN King) Gutfreund
                          gutfreund.umass-cs@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 9 November 1983 18:33 est
From: James J. Lippard <Lippard@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: last days of Galaxy

     In response to Berry Kercheval's message a few issues ago: I
believe the story to which you refer was called "Star Warriors" by
Jesse Peel.  It was in the last two Analog-sized issues of Galaxy
(which were the last two I ever saw).

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 83 14:42:27 PST (Thursday)
From: LFeinberg.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: H. BEAM PIPER's new FUZZY novel

     Rumor has it that a manuscript was found, typed by H. Beam Piper
himself (with penciled in corrections), for a new Fuzzy novel.
Furthermore, this is supposed to be released soon by Ace Science
Fiction.  Can anyone confirm this, and tell us the publication date?

Thanx,

Lawrerence

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 83 22:09:15-EST (Sat)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!tektronix!ucbcad!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: H. BEAM PIPER's new FUZZY novel - (nf)

/***** ucbcad:net.sf-lovers / sri-arpa!ARPA /  3:25 pm  Nov  4, 1983*/

     "Rumor has it that a manuscript was found, typed by H. Beam Piper
himself (with penciled in corrections), for a new Fuzzy novel.
Furthermore, this is supposed to be released soon by Ace Science
Fiction.  Can anyone confirm this, and tell us the publication date?"

     Well, I actually saw the manuscript referred to (it was at an
auction I was at).  The manuscript really exists, and is due out
sometime next year from ACE.

                        Joe Kalash

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Nov 83 0829-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #113
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 11 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 113

Today's Topics:
            Books - J.R.R. Tolkein & Jack Vance (3 msgs) &
            Gene Wolfe (3 msgs) & "Math Books" (2 msgs) &
                           The SF Omnibus,
                      Film - The Star Wars Saga,
                    Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs),
            Games - Traveller & Empire of the Petal Throne

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 83 8:15:08-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxf!wbux5!lat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: J.R.R. Tolkein

     About Tolkein...

     The first time I read Tolkein was in the 5th grade.  I only read
"The Hobbit" then, but even that was pretty hard going for a 5th
grader (I had a he&& of a time trying to pronounce some of those
names...).  I never got around to reading the trilogy "The Lord of the
Rings" until Junior High, and I fell in love with the whole set.  I
have re-read them many a time, and each time I discover something I
missed during the previous reading.  I also have read "The
Silmarillion" and "The Tolkein Reader", and, thoroughly enjoyed them.
His style of writing is very descriptive, and I lose myself in
Middle-Earth every time I read them.  (It's time for a replacement for
my books...  they are falling apart from all the reading and
re-reading).

Laurie
[ihnp4, harpo, houxf]!wbux5!lat

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 83 22:12:52-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!aecom!sanders @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: another request for title/author

     The book that rene asked about is Marune : Alastor 993 by Jack
Vance
                                    Jeremy Sanders
                   {philabs,esquire,cucard,pegasus}!aecom!sanders

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 83 21:24:13-EST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: another request for title/author - (nf)

/***** uokvax:net.sf-lovers / umcp-cs!rene / 2:05 pm Oct 24, 1983 */

     Does anyone know about a book about some guy who wakes up in some
kind of work camp, without his memory. The doctors piece together
where he comes from from his odd reactions to certain things like
eating in public (on his planet people ate together only with screens
over the lower half of the face - eating was about as socially
acceptable as excretion) and an exhilaration in the dark (which, on
his planet, was the only time sexual activity was acceptable - men
would put on masks and go 'rape' a willing woman, if she chose him).
When he returned, it turned out that he had been put away because of
some 'magic formula' made by natives, and there was something about
sibling rivalry and inheritance, I think. It's been a long while, so I
hope I've got what details I remember right.

                                Thanks,
                                   - rene
--
Arpa:   rene.umcp-cs@CSNet-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!rene
/* ---------- */

     You win - I happen to be reading this at home, so I walked two
feet, and picked up the book you want:

        Title: Marune: Alastor 933
        Author: Jack Vance
        Publisher: DAW (paperback version)

     This is apparently one of a series of books by Vance dealing with
the Alastor cluster - a LARGE globular cluster under the same
government. The other two I have are Wyst (# 1716) and Trullion (#
2262). All three are at least very good. Pointers to others in the
series would be appreciated.

        <mike

P.S. - These books are not interdependent. You can read on all by its
lonesome without missing anything.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 83 10:13:02-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!rene @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: another request for title/author - (nf)

     Many thanks to those who responded with Jack Vance's "Marune:
Alastor 993" book. The title doesn't ring a bell at ALL, but so many
say it is, so it must be (can 10,000 frenchmen be wrong?). It's an odd
title, anyway, not all that memorable, and it was a LONG time ago. Is
it possible it was a novelette or something under a different title,
later expanded to novel length? I can't seem to find it in the library
or local bookstores - are the Alastor books still in print?

                        Thanks,
                                - rene
--
Arpa:   rene.umcp-cs@CSNet-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!rene

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 83 8:04:20-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!yale-com!leichter @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe"s "The Fifth Head of Cerberus"

     "The Fifth Head of Cerberus" consists of three stories, each of
which could more or less stand alone - the second, with the same title
as the book, was originally published as a novella.  (I read it in one
of Terry Carr's collections; I don't know where else it might have
appeared.)  The stories take place on one of two twin colony worlds;
their common thread is a single character, a visiting Earth scientist,
who is an incidental character in the first story - come to think of
it, I guess THAT's the previously published one, the narrator of the
second (which is actually a retelling of a myth told by the
conjectural (? - but the reason for the "?" is deep in the story)
native residents of one of the planets, and the central character in
the third.

     The book develops slowly.  If you really want to get the absolute
most out of the first story, read it a little bit at a time over a
matter of a couple of days.

     Overall, it's a marvelous book.  It's beautifully written, much
of it being in Wolfe's typical "take some hackneyed style and do
something totally unexpected with it".  Thus, the first story is very
much in the Gothic tradition - terrible family secret, etc.

     By all means, give it a read.

                                    -- Jerry
                    decvax!yale-comix!leichter leichter@yale

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 83 23:03:58-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!akhtar @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Fifth Head of Cerberus

     re-Fifth Head of Cerberus: I read the book some considerable time
back. The book is divided into 3 parts, with the perspective from
which the three parts are written being different.

     Personally, I found the 1st part to be very, very good and
struggled through parts 2 and 3 for the sake of completeness, but
found them somewhat uninteresting in comparison. ( I would add that
this being a personal opinion should not be taken as a valid judgment
of the book etc etc...)

     I would recommend that you read the book.

        Pervaze Akhtar
        ...pur-ee!uiucdcs!akhtar

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 83 11:50:59-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!eagle!hou5h!hou5g!hou5f!ariel!vax135!@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe's "The Fifth Head of Cerberus"

     This book may be the best SF novel ever written, and is a very
superior piece of literature by any standards.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 83 09:27:16 PST (Friday)
From: Halbert.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Fantasia Mathematica

     The short story "A Subway Named Moebius" is also in a book named
"Fantasia Mathematica", a collection of fiction, poetry, etc. (not all
SF) about mathematics. For instance, there is a story by Clarke (?)
about a house built in the shape of an unfolded tesseract that folds
up in an earthquake. Most everything in the book is very entertaining.
You can usually find it in the non-fiction math section of your local
library.

--Dan

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 83 21:32:55-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!alice!rabbit!ark @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: looking for a book (not quite SF, but...)

     I've been looking for a number of years for a book that's long
out of print.  It's called "Mathematics Made Difficult" Anyone in
netland have a copy that I might buy?

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 83 9:24:38-PST (Sun)
From: ihnp4!clyde!akgua!emory!gatech!spaf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Omnibus of SF

     Well, according to the inside cover of my "OMNIBUS..." you can
contact the publisher by mailing to:

        Bonanza Books
        Crown Publishers, Inc.
        One Park Avenue
        New York, NY  10016

--
Gene Spafford
School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA
CSNet:  Spaf @ GATech           ARPA:   Spaf.GATech @ CSNet-Relay
uucp:
..!{akgua,allegra,rlgvax,sb1,unmvax,ut-ngp,ut-sally}!gatech!spaf

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 83 0:25:01-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re:  TESB/RotJ Interval - (nf)

     I don't think that Chewie went in with Lando at first because
Jabba had put a price on both Han Solo and Chewie. He would not have
been able to get out again. Lando was an unknown and could secure
employment as a guard with little trouble. According to the book,
Lando may also have destroyed the Bar-Droid on the sail barge to
ensure that when R2-D2 showed up that he would be assigned there.

     The size of the door was probably chosen merely to convince the
viewer that Jabbas Palace was as friendly as the wicked witch of the
West's was. The sound of the door rumbling shut was very effective in
giving the impression that many who enter there never leave. Actually
every visitor was scanned by the "Eye Droid" and only those who could
be handled by the interior guards were admitted. I can't explain how
it managed to let someone in who had a Thermonuclear detonator on
them.

John Eaton

hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 83 11:40:15 EST
From: Saul Jaffe <Jaffe@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who

     Does anyone out there have or know of a complete episode guide
for the series?  The guide I have only has the Tom Baker episodes.  I
know the series is still running but SOMEONE must know the information
up to the end of last season.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 7 Nov 83 10:49:10-MST
From: Michi Wada <WADA@SANDIA.ARPA>
Subject: The Doctor's Granddaughter

     Susan was not from 1963 Earth.  She was attending school on 1963
Earth while the Doctor tried to find materials to fix the TARDIS.
Susan always called the Doctor "grandfather".  Whether she actually
was the Doctor's granddaughter or only adopted was never specifically
said.  Susan's exact origins were never stated.

                                Michi Wada

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 83 21:56:50 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Games!

     Present and future releases from GDW for TRAVELLER:

     "Murder at Arcturus Station"--This adventure for TRAVELLER,
written by the Keith Brothers, is a classical murder mystery in space.
A man is murdered on an asteroid station; due to a delicate political
situation, the adventurers must solve the crime within five days or
the killer will go free.  Naturally, everyone4 on board has a motive.
There are nine prominent suspects, ranging from the victim's ex-wife
to an Aslan noble.  Any one of them may be the guilty party, and the
referee's information varies depending on which one he chooses.
Another option allows one of the adventurers to be the murderer.
MURDER is a tangled puzzle in the tradition of Hercule Poirot or Lord
Peter Wimsey.  The only problem will be fitting all the mass of
information into a single book.  To be published sometime this fall
for $5.00.

     BELTSTRIKE--Another design by the Keith Brothers, this one is a
boxed module similar in physical form to TARSUS.  It's set in the
Bowman system in District 268, which supports a small population of
asteroid miners.  The module now consists of two booklets and five
adventure folders.  Booklet one gives background on the Bowman system:
its history, physical details, society and government (such as they
are), commerce, and current events.  Booklet two is a belter's
handbook, and gives general rules governing belt mining: prospecting,
equipment, encounters and events claims, etc: this booklet may be used
to run adventures in any asteroid belt, not just Bowman.  The
adventure folders cover just a few of the many situations possible.

     SAFARI SHIP--This Traveller adventure deals with a hunting
expedition to an unpopulated world at the edge of District 268.  The
patron, in search of unknown animals, has chartered a safari ship and
recruited a crew which includes the adventurers.  The action includes
the hunt plus a few subordinate plot lines to liven things up.
Included in the adventure are deck plans and descriptions for the
safari ship, animal encounter tables, background material, and an
essay on hunting and its application to adventuring, as well as the
adventure itself.

     Also in progress--

     THE TRAVELLER ADVENTURE--at the printers, Nov-Dec release.

     SIGNAL OK--a disaster on a starliner.  Held up until the
completion of the two previously mentioned Keith adventures.

     SCOUTS--Traveller Book 6.  At the printers, Nov-Dec release.

     I expect that the above will be out (Beltstrike, Murder, Safari)
by January, if you listen to previous reports.  All the descriptions
are from a GDW newsletter...so they are to thank or to blame for the
hype typed out above!  However, considering the high quality of the
GDW releases for TRAVELLER (not to mention other GDW games) so far,
I'll trust this hyping over other hyping...

See you!

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 83 08:12:56 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Empire of the Petal Thorne

     For those of you with RPG experience, you may remember a
venerable release of some years back called EMPIRE OF THE PETAL
THRONE.  EPT was released by TSR (makers of D&D), and was the
life-time work of Professor M.A.R. Barker.

     Well, D&D got more and more popular and TSR kind of let EPT slide
by the wayside, which was a shame, because (in my humble opinion), it
is the better of the two games.  The overall socio-political-
historical-economical systems were more interesting, the game itself
was better designed--they even had a really nifty line of figures.  Ah
well, such is the price with competition...

     Years past...EPT was essentially forgotten by the gaming world.

     But not anymore!!!!  This year the EPT universe is undergoing a
truly exciting revival.  Firstly, Lou Zoochi (GAMESCIENCE), hero of
undergamers every where, has bought up EPT and brought it out in a new
release, two items on the market now, with more sure to come:

SWORDS & GLORY, VOLUME I:  TEKUMEL SOURCE BOOK

     Boxed game by Gamescience.  The long-awaited new "World of the
Petal Throne" is here at last!  Professor M.A.R. Barker's vastly
imaginative creation is set forth in fascinating detail: The
histories, languages, cultures and customs of the alien world Tekumel
are all covered in this 136-page volume, accompanied by full-color
maps. ($25.00)

QADARDALIKOI

     Rulebook by Tekumel Journal.  This 84 page rulebook tells how to
fight strategic level campaigns as well as tactical unit battles with
the five major nations on the planet Tekumel.  They are co-authored by
Professor M.A.R. Barker and cover land and sea battles.  Each move in
the tactical game simulates 10 minutes and campaign moves represent
one week.  Specifications for stands, colors, magic, sieges, unit
organizations and tactics are provided.  EPT buffs will want this book
for the wealth of detail provided, even if they don't play miniatures.

(The above two pieces of hype are from Gamescience advertising
material)

     Also, Professor Barker's long-awaited (at least for us that knew
of it!)  EPT novel is coming out from DAW books--depending on which
rumor you listen to it is either coming out sometime late this year,
or in July of next year.  Entitled MAN OF GOLD, Barker is hard at work
on volume two, also to be published by DAW...

     More news as it develops...

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Nov 83 0844-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #114
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 114

Today's Topics:
                Bookclubs - Walden Books SF Book Club,
              Bookstores - Rare and Hard-to-Find Books,
     Radio - The FOURTH TOWER of INVERNESS & Other ZBS Weirdness,
                    Television - Dr. Who (7 msgs),
                Conventions - Buttons Seen at SF Cons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 83 14:30:13-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Book club and MZB

     I happened to be in a Walden bookstore the other day buying some
SF books and was told that there is a Walden SF book club that one can
join for free by filling out a few forms.  Two benefits: 10% discount
on SF books ( >$5 purchase) and a bi-monthly newsletter called
"Xignals".  I was given the second volume which 16 pages long and has
information on books currently being published, articles on SF in
general and this volume an interview with Marion Zimmer Bradley.

     I mention this for anyone who didn't know about this book club
and might be interested in it.

                               Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP:  {decvax,ucbvax,inuxc,harpo,uiucdc}!pur-ee!Physics:dub
INTERNET:       dub @ pur-phy.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 83 16:34:59-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!aecom!sanders @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: A great place to get hard to get books

     If you ever have difficulty getting a book at your local book
store, (as the net shows a lot of people r having), don't panic!
There is a small book store in Greenwich Village which carries only sf
& f books. These people have yet to fail me for current books. If you
don't live in New York, thats no problem: they have a mail order
system & publish a monthly price-list of all the books they carry.

                        The Science Fiction Shop
                        56 8av. New York, N.Y.
                        10014

     If your looking for out of date books & your in the New York
area, I highly recommend two stores: "Books of Wonder" & "The Fantasy
Archives".

                                Jeremy Sanders
                             {philabs,esquire,cucard}!aecom!sanders

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 83 18:26:48-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!sultan!dag @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The FOURTH TOWER of INVERNESS & Other ZBS Weirdness

     This is a follow-up to the request I made some weeks ago for
pointers to a source for tapes of the ZBS radio series "The Fourth
Tower of Inverness".

     I found out that NPR does not own the rights to sell tapes of the
series, but that ZBS themselves sell cassettes.  I called ZBS on the
phone and requested a catalog.  It arrived a few days later and a
description follows.

---------------------------------------

     The catalog is labeled:

                    SCIENCE FANTASY CASSETTE CLUB

     The offerings in the catalog are for:

     Jack Flanders Stuff:

The Fourth Tower of Inverness (5 90 minute cassettes)
Moon Over Morrocco (7 cassettes, 10 hours)
The Incredible Adventures of Jack Flanders (5 60 minute cassettes)

     Other Radio Series...

Ruby                                    (3.5 hours)
Stars & Stuff                           (6 cassettes)
Mind Movies...
Rocket Pierre, Trapper to the Stars     (60 minutes)
Wino Willie and the Dream Juice,
     The Padre's Soul Ascends to Heaven,
     Motorcyclists from Mars,
     The Thing that Ate Aunt Sophie      (60 minutes)
 The Flatback Dragon or Oh! Those China Nights,
     The Tongue that Licked Tuscon,
     The Cheesemen of Mars               (60 minutes)
 Boogie Woogie to the Stars and Back Again,  (60 minutes)
Tired of the Green Menace?              (60 minutes)
Bob B. Bonecutter Vs. the Pink Pearl Erasers,
     The Bureau of Disillusionmnet Vs. the Great Garbonzo,
     or, Come Back Duke of Earl!         (60 minutes)
The Ah-Ha! Phenomena (Jack Flanders)    (70 minutes)
Mojo Plays Morocco                      (60 minutes)

     Sampler:

The Fantastic Reality                   (1 hour)

     I've not included prices but will post an expanded listing with
descriptions of each of the entries if it is the consensus that that
will not be "commercial use of the net".  Vital statistics for ZBS:

                ZBS Foundation
                R. D. #1
                Fort Edward, NY 12828
                (518) 695-6406

     They have cassettes, no reel-to-reel tapes.  They do not accept
credit cards but they do accept COD's.

     Thanks to all who sent suggestions.

                                Daniel Glasser
                                ...!decvax!sultan!dag

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 83 23:36:17-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!odom @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who, what happened? - (nf)

     Help!  I desperately need information on a Dr. Who episode that I
was forced to miss.  The episode was showing in Champaign-Urbana the
13, 14, 17, and probably the 18 of Oct. 83.  It was starring Peter
Davidson and he had just lost Tegan in a previous episode.  In this
one it opened with a couple of British boys touring Amsterdam(?),
sleeping in a crypt, and one of them getting taken over by this alien
from an anti-matter universe.  This fellow turned out to be Tegan's
cousin and she goes is to join him there (Amsterdam) on vacation,
since she has just lost her job.  Naturally, she and the other fellow
get caught by this anti-matter fellow too and used to blackmail the
Doctor who is about to be terminated on Galifrey (sp?) for being the
biological recipient of this beastie.  Nyssa, is big time upset and
tries to save the Doctor but the high council puts him to death
anyway.  But, he's saved by the beastie and is living in the (time
vortex, whatever) where he is threatened with Tegan's extinction if he
doesn't cooperate, he agrees.  The next thing we see, he's back in the
High Council chambers and that's it!!  What happens???  how does it
end??  Tegan is with him in the next episode but there's no way to
figure this one out, and no, I do not remember the title!  please!
HELP!

Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 83 23:36:12-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!odom @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The TARDIS - (nf)

     The Doctor has a granddaughter?!?!?  That implies a family
somewhere (or at least a significant other)!  Pray, tell more!  I've
only been watching the Doctor for about a year and cannot afford to
buy all the books.  Does anybody have a capsule history of him??

Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 11 Nov 83 12:58:31-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Dr Who Episodes

     Brief descriptions of ALL the Dr Who adventures, plus notes on
ALL the Doctors and their Companions, plus stuff on next year's
season, can be found in the:

                   Dr Who 20th Anniversary Special

by BBC Publications.  It is available at any good bookstore or
newsagent for about $650 (or 30 cents if you happen to be already in
England).  It can probably be ordered from the publisher if you are
prepared to pay rather more for airmail than the cost of the thing
itself.  I've not seen a copy in the US, though.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 83 0:14:29-EST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The TARDIS - (nf)

     Probably the REAL reason the TARDIS is stuck in the shape of a
police box is because it's cheaper and easier for the prop department.

     Do the Doctor Who books follow the episodes exactly?

                                        Mary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Nov 83 10:43:51 PST
From: Scott Turner <v.srt@UCLA-LOCUS>
Subject: Doctor Who Programme Guide

     For whoever requested information on a Programme Guide for Doctor
Who:

                    The Doctor Who Programme Guide
                        by Jean-Marc Lofficier
                       Vol. 1:  The Programmes

A Target Book published by the paperback division of W.H. Allen & Co.,
Ltd., A Howard & Wyndham Company, 44 Hill Street, London, W1X 8LB

ISBN 0 426 20139 6

     There is also a second volume called ``Who's Who'' which is in
dictionary format and covers all important names and plot devices.
The Programme book covers the first show through the show on March 21,
1981 (LOGOPOLIS).  The edition I have was published in 1981, so there
may be later editions available.  I got mine from a friend in
Dallas-Fort Worth.

Sample summary:

``LOGOPOLIS (4 episodes)

Writer: Christopher H. Bidmead

Director:  Peter Grimwade

Regular Cast: see 5T above, and introducing Janet Fielding (Tegan
Jovanka) and Peter Davidson (the Doctor).

Cast: Anthony Ainley (the Master); John Fraser (Monitor); Dolore
Whiteman (Aunt Vanessa); Tom Georgeson (Detective Inspector);
Christopher Hurst (Security Guard).

     Story: The Doctor decides to repair the TARDIS's chameleon
circuit and goes to England to find a real police box, thereby falling
into a complex dimensional trap devised by the Master.  A young air
hostess, whose aunt is later murdered by the renegade Time Lord,
enters the TARDIS thinking it to be a police box.  The Doctor, having
been warned by the mysterious Watcher that an enormous trial lies
ahead, rushes to Logopolis, a city inhabited by pure mathematicians.
There, the Monitor, who is in charge of Logopolis, reveals a copy of
the famous Pharos Computer Project on Earth.  The Master, who has been
interfering with the City in his plans to destroy the Doctor,
accidentally causes it to stop functioning.  The Monitor reveals that
the Universe has passed the point of normal heat death and that its
life has been extended only by his people's calculations.  Realizing
the consequences of the Master's actions -- the dissolution of the
Universe -- the two Time Lords team up together they go to the Pharos
Project on Earth, to beam the Logopolitan Program into deep Space.
The Master now plans to blackmail the Cosmos into submission, and the
two Time Lords begin a fight which causes the Doctor to fall to his
death.  The Master escapes while the Doctor's body regenerates.''

Reprinted here for purposes of review only.

------------------------------

Date: 11-Nov-83 22:07 PST
From: RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3
Subject: Dr. Who episode guide available in SFL archives

Re: the Dr. Who episode guide query from Saul Jaffe
<Jaffe@RU-BLUE.ARPA>

     What appeared to be a complete guide (although extremely brief),
appeared in Volume 7, Issue 41 of the SF-Lovers Digest, dated 20 Jun
83:

     Information on the first 122 serials was extracted from an
information sheet produced by Dean Shewring for the Doctor Who
Information Network - 1982, and was sent in by:

                       ihnp4!ihlpf!dub@UCB-VAX.

     Information on the 20th season serials (123-128) was extracted
from a NADWAS (North American Doctor Who Appreciation Society)
newsletter and sent in by:

         harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae@UCB-VAX.

     Info on serials 123-128 was also sent in by Michi Wada
<WAA@SANDIA.ARPA>.

     You should be able to find V7 #41 in SRI-CSL file
<SFL>ARCHIVE.V7.

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 83 21:31:51-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!decwrl!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dr. Who books following TV.

     As a long time Dr. Who fan (all the way back to episode 1 in
November 1963) I have been watching the various discussions here with
some interest and amusement.  Maybe when I get some time I will
respond at length to some of them.

     There's one that I want to reply to now.  Mary ?? asks if the
books follow the series accurately.  They DO NOT.  This makes me
angry.  Book #1 was very close to the first story.  Book #2 (The
Daleks) was way off.  I can see absolutely no reason for it.

     A large part of the book was concerned with the Doctor, Barbara,
and Susan meeting Ian for the first time on a rainy night on Hampstead
Heath in London.  In the show, Ian joined the crew in the first story.
He was Barbara's colleague and one of Susan's teachers.  The book has
many other inaccuracies.  In disgust I refused to buy it and have lost
a great deal of interest in looking at any of the other books.

        Mark Callow, Saratoga, CA.
        ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!
                      ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc
        decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 83 16:05:44-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxj!mhuxi!charm!mam @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Buttons Seen at SF Cons

--------------------------------------------------

Nice Computers Don't Go Down

Real programmers don't document;
if it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand.

I thought YOU silenced the guard!

Lawful Dungeon Master - and they're MY laws!

Don't worry - the brontosaurus is slow, stupid, and placid.

I hate blue cuteness - nuke the Smurfs!

Shift to the left, shift to the right,
Push down, pop up, byte, byte, byte!

42

Property of Presteign's

Visit Scenic Gyronchi

Piddle, twiddle, and resolve
Not one damn thing do we solve

I see in my glassy ball...
(I can't afford rock crystal)

Filksinger for hire
(Ear insurance extra)

Planetary Engineer
Fjords a speciality

I haven't lost my mind - it's backed up on tape somewhere

Hitch-hiker... DON'T talk to me about Hitch-hiker!

E = mc^2 +- 3db

Speaker to Enzymes <worn by a biochemist>

Even puppeteers have enemies

Freedom - It is our worship-word!

To hell with the Prime Directive;
Let's KILL something!

Mildly annoyed scientist

Incorrigible punster
Do not incorrige

Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards,
for they become soggy and hard to light

Do not throw cigarette butts in the urinal,
for they are subtle and quick to anger

It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations

The Ossifiers are the bony exoskeleton of the
New Jersey Science Fiction Society <worn by an officer of NJSFS>

Driftwood on the sea of fandom <worn by same as above>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Nov 83 0847-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #115
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Nov 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 115

Today's Topics:
           Books - Douglas Adams (6 msgs) & Isaac Asimov &
             David Brin (2 msgs) & M.A. Foster (2 msgs) &
      Robert A. Heinlein (2 msgs) & Michael Moorcock (2 msgs) &
             H. Beam Piper & J.R.R. Tolkein & Jack Vance,
                Query - Looking for a Lost Book/Story,
          Film - Sequel to "The Day the Earth Stood Still" &
                         The Star Wars Saga,
                    Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs),
                     Music - "Old Time Religion"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 83 14:45:31-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!andie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams & Monty Python

     Douglas Adams also helped write and edit some Dr. Who scripts,
such as the quest for the Key to Time.  I've always wondered if he got
the idea for his third book from there...

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 83 12:27:51-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!cbosgd!cbdkc1!pyuxi!pyuxn!rlr@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams & Monty Python

     A friend of mine told me that Douglas Adams wrote the first few
chapters of Graham Chapman's autobiography (I know, I know...) at
Chapman's request.  He was fired because Chapman didn't like all the
space opera he was writing, though those chapters were retained in the
book.  Does anyone out there know anything about this book?

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 83 7:48:25-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!sultan!dag @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Douglas Adams & Dr. Who

     Douglass Adams also wrote an ill-fated but multi-episode Dr. Who
sequence.  I believe that the particular story was never aired due to
a strike.  I got this information from the Whovian Times, the official
newsletter of the Dr. Who Fan Club of America.

                        Daniel Glasser
                        ...!decvax!sultan!dag
                        [One of those things that goes
                                BUMP (ouch!) in the night!]

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 12 Nov 1983 14:36-PST
Subject: ultimate question and answer
From: kevinw at SU-DSN@ISL at Sumex-Aim

     Wouldn't knowing both the question and answer to something as
basic as the question "life, the universe, and everything" violate
something like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle?

  -- Kevin
     kevinw@su-dsn

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 83 4:37:31-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: More Dent, Scrabble, and HHGttG - (nf)

     Soon after Dent got on the Heart of Gold, he and Trillian were
playing scrabble (at least in the book, I'm not sure about the series,
cuz I haven't seen it in a while).  Anyway, he got the word
"Exquisite" on a triple word score.  I'm wondering if that could have
any significance and if anyone out there knows what "Exquisite" would
score.  (I'm not a scrabble player).

                                Mary

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 83 22:42:44-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Adams - The Meaning of Life - (nf)

     Supposedly, this book by Douglas Adams and John Lloyd(?) was to
come out in October.  I have been to all the bookstores in town.  I
have got my name on lists at every book store and I haven't turned off
my answering machine for a minute, so I don't think the book could
come in without my knowing about it.  Does anyone know what gives.

                                        Mary

Does this perchance have something to do with Monty Python's "The
Meaning of Life"?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 83 12:47:50-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!mac @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: THE ROBOTS OF DAWN - review, no spoiler

     I just finished reading Asimov's new novel, THE ROBOTS OF DAWN.

     I loved it.  Many characters from the two other novels are there
- for those of you that haven't read THE CAVES OF STEEL or THE NAKED
SUN, that means this is about the detective team of Elijah Baley and
Robot Daneel Olivaw.

     The radio ads for this book are VERY misleading.  To me, the ads
sound like they are describing a trashy sex novel - this is not
trashy, although it does contain sexual themes.

     Asimov's writing style continues to improve, especially in his
ability to write believable female characters and include adult sexual
themes.  (I'm not saying that he's very good, yet, but he's come a
long way from his asexual portrayal of Susan Calvin)

     Check it out.

        Jim McParland
        AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ
        allegra!mac

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1983  14:32 EST
From: Mike Blackwell <Mkb@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: David Brin

     In the back of my copy of Sundiver, in the About the Author
section, it says "His second novel, Startide Rising, was recently
published by Bantam Books and he is currently at work on his third,
The Practice Effect." However, there is no mention of this new book in
my copy of Startide Rising. Anybody know anything more?

                -m-

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1983 1437-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-SPEECH at MIT-ML>
Subject: David Brin

     Sundiver was recently reprinted, so by the time you read this
message your favorite bookstore should be able to get it from any of
the distributors.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1983  15:59 EST (Mon)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: M.A. Foster

     I also got the impression from reading Gameplayers of Zan that
M.A.  Foster was a female.  I was also amazed that there was no info
about him/her anywhere in the book (I looked hard).  I enjoyed GoZ
much and would be interested to here something about the background of
M.A.  Foster.

Greg

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 83 1:29:27-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: M.A. Foster - (nf)

/***** uokvax:net.sf-lovers / hogpc!jsw / 6:19 pm Nov 8, 1983 */

... an attempt to conceal the sex of the first name from borderline-
sexist SF readers who won't always pick up a book by an unknown female
author.

                                  - John Soltes, ...hogpc!jsw
/* ---------- */

@begin[:-)]

     Gee, I never thought of myself as borderline sexist. But since I
don't always pick up books by unknown female authors, I guess I am.
Does the fact that I don't always pick up books by unknown male
authors (or actually, authors of unknown sex) mitigate this? Do I have
to quit buying books by known authors so I can buy books by unknown
female authors (I can't afford to do both) if I don't want to be
tagged as sexist?  @end[:-)]

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 83 18:08:54 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: houses as tesseracts....?????

     Unless Clarke and Heinlein wrote stories excessively similar, the
story that was reported to be in Fantasia Mathematica about an
architect building a house in the shape of a tesseract that collapses
is the story "And He Built A Crooked House" by Robert Heinlein.

     Of course, I may be wrong.....

have fun
/amqueue

(MODERATOR'S NOTE:  Thanks also to Janice (mdc.janice@mit-oz) for
conveying the same information)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 83 08:41:57 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Robert A. Heinlein

     I would like to thank the following people for also responding to
the note regarding the authorship of "And He Built A Crooked House..."
by Robert A. Heinlein (not Arthur C. Clarke):

Michael Bergman (Bergman.SoftArts@MMIT-MULTICS)

Greg McMullan (c/o G.MENAGERIE@MIT-EECS@MIT-ML)

decvax@wivax!linus!philabs!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!cma2504@UCB-VAX

     Thanks to you all for the information,

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1983  21:50 EST (Fri)
From: Stephen R. Balzac <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: (query) Michael Moorcock

The Elric series:

1.  Elric of Melnibone
2.  Sailor on the Seas of Fate
3.  Wierd of the White Wolf
4.  Vanishing Tower
5.  Bane of the Black Sword
6.  Stormbringer

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 83 16:23:54-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!aecom!sanders @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: (query) Michael Moorcock

     The books of the Elric of Melinbone' series are (in order) :

                         Elric of Melinbone'
                      Sailor on the Seas of Fate
                       Weird of the White Wolf
                         The Vanishing Tower
                       Bane of the Black Sword
                             Stormbringer

     They're presently being reprinted in attractive silver covers by
Berkley.

                                Jeremy Sanders
                        {philabs,cucard,esquire}!aecom!sanders

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1983  03:05 EST
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: H. BEAM PIPER's new FUZZY novel

     When announced (ChiCon last year), the new Piper Fuzzy book was
due out 4th quarter '83.

                                                James

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 83 0:14:52-EST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Tolkein

     TOLKEIN UNREAL!!!  I believe in Middle Earth more than I believe
in New York.

     After all, I've never been to New York, but I have been to Middle
Earth, and I rather return to Middle Earth than go to New York.

                                        Mary

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 83 17:58:30 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: the alastor books

     I believe the Alastor books aren't about a globular cluster of
planets (or whatever), but about the same planet at differing times,
the number giving the date. Thereby, Marune:Alastor 933 is about the
planet in the year 933, and Wyst : Alastor 1716 about the planet in
the year 1716, etc. I haven't read the books, but I got this from a
friend who is a Jack Vance fanatic, and has read all of the stuff
available.

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 12 Nov 1983 14:32-PST
Subject: book search..
From: kevinw at SU-DSN@ISL at Sumex-Aim

     I have been told about a book (perhaps by Piers Anthony or Poul
Anderson) (maybe a short from a magazine) about a time when God gets
sick and dies leaving the devil holding the bag.  Problem is, it
doesn't take too long before the devil decides he got the raw end of
the deal and was better off before, but now its too late -- he has got
to play god.

     Anybody know where I can find this?  Sounds like it could be a
fairly interesting/amusing story if it exists.

thanks,
  -- Kevin
     kevinw@su-dsn

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 83 6:12:32-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.piner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Sequel to "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

     I heard a rumor on TV today that someone is working on a sequel
to "The Day the Earth Stood Still".  Has anyone else heard of this?

                                           Rich Piner
                                           Purdue Physics Dept.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 83 17:57:26-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!astrovax!dp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re:  TESB/RotJ Interval

     Perhaps Lando and Chewbacca decided that the Wookie was too
conspicuous to be disguised as one of Jabba's lackeys. In addition,
you seem to have forgotten that Leia probably was admitted into the
palace simply because she was disguised as a bounty hunter who wished
to collect the reward for Chewbacca's capture; I would guess that the
guards opened the door for her.

                  dp

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1983 14:25:03-EST
From: Edward.Tecot@CMU-CS-H
Subject: Dr. Who

     I just recently saw a copy of the Whovian Times, the official
newspaper of the Dr. Who fan club.  Included was an outline of all of
the Peter Davidson episodes (Anybody else think Earthshock was as good
as I did?)  Also mentioned was the female companion for the new
Doctor, Colin Baker (no relation to Tom).  She (I don't remember her
name) is the first American to be on the series.  Also, can anyone
speculate as to what has actually become of Adric?  I know he died,
but it seemed to be a bit unusual.  If he was going back in time when
he died, doesn't it make sense that through the natural course of
time, the ship would appear to leave the earth rather slowly (in
reverse) and if someone happened to come by, well who knows, unless
you can be sure that the actor had left the series for good.  Also,
will the Doctor get his screwdriver back?

                                        _emt

P.S. Also mentioned in the Times was a special Dr. Who episode
entitled 'The Five Doctors'.  It supposed to be the best ever due to
more time and money spent on it.  If my memory serves me right, it is
scheduled to be aired on PBS just before the Christmas specials get
into full swing.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 83 16:25:33-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!daemon @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who fans in N. H. and (parts of) Mass....

From: Ed Featherston  HL01-1/P06  225-5241 <roll::featherston>

     Word has it that Channel 11 (WENH), PBS in Durham, NH, is going
to start showing Dr Who episodes with Peter Davison as The Doctor
starting on Saturday, Nov 19 ( WENH airs 2 hours of Dr. Who every
Saturday afternoon from 4 - 6 ).

                                /ed featherston/

           Mail address : ...decvax!decwrl!rhea!roll!featherston

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 83 19:27:58-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dann @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Why does everyone like Dr. Who

     So, why *does* everyone like Dr. Who.  I watched it a few times
after reading about it on the net.  It was pretty bad.  Bad acting.
Bad scripts.  Bad science fiction.  Terrible special effects.

     Mind you, it was interesting in kind of a campy way, but I don't
see going out and starting fan clubs.  Did Dr. Who used to be better?
Am I watching an early version of the show or one of the Dr's less
competent incarnations?

     I mean, like, who is this guy, anyway?

dann

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 83 22:56:00-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxx!ignatz @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: more verses

     Actually, I'm somewhat behind on this group, so pardon me if I
don't dive right in and dump them out for fear that someone else has
already done so...but I have quite a lot of verses to the Filk song
"Real Old Time Religion."  If anyone is interested, mail and I'll send
them; or if enough people are interested, I'll post the song (24
verses.)  I will, of course, attempt to contact the fellow who
compiled the list that it came from, but...well, see below.

     The source is a Fan pub circa 1978 called "Filthy Pierre's Micro
Filk", compiled by Erwin S. "Filthy Pierre" Strauss (then of) Lanham,
Maryland.  While the collection of some fifteen EXTREMELY small-print
songs (equal to 30 8 1/2 x 11 inch sheets) is marked as copyrighted, I
am quite certain that the songs themselves are in the public domain,
as these songs are transcripts of fannish filksongs that have been
sung at conventions for years.

                   Dave "Have some Madeira, my Dear" Ihnat
                   ihuxx!ignatz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Nov 83 0836-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #116
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:

                   Administriva--Hail and Farewell,
                   Television - Dr. Who (11 msgs),
                    Books - Douglas Adams (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 83 08:30:36 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Administriva--Hail and Farewell

Dear All:

     From the way things look, this will be my last week of working on
SF-Lovers.

     Because of political reasons (i.e., recent concern over invasion
of various computer systems), I will be losing my account soon.

     I am now currently accepting applications for somebody to take
over the position of Moderator.

     It has been fun.  I am sorry to be leaving, but it will be a
little hard to send out SF-L if I don't have an account!  Ah well,
this will give me more time for my professional writing--i.e., reviews
and game designs...

Thanks for all the fish,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III
Moderator,
SF-Lovers Digest

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 83 10:52:53 EST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Why does everyone like Dr. Who

     Damfino.  I like Doctor Who, and just about all else I can stand
to watch regularly is Monty Python and auto-racing (a real
intellectual, I am).  I think part of it is that it doesn't take
itself very seriously.  There's usually a number of amusing jokes, but
they don't seem as forced as on other programs (perhaps due to the
lack of laugh track?).  Campy does seem to describe it, but I can't
see me in a fan club either (people have clubs for Battle Star:
Galactica [the Lost in Space of the 70's], though, as well.  No
accounting for taste.).

                                Chris

PS Actually, the REAL reason is that I'm an unrepentant sexist lecher:
Romana's cute, and I've been waiting for the episode where Leela falls
out of her jungle costume (what!! you mean there isn't one!?!?
arrrgggg....)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 17 Nov 83 11:14:15-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Dr Who queries

     1.  The new Companion will be called Peri Brown, played by
actress Nicola Bryant, who is indeed an American.  She will join
shortly after the departure of Tegan (Janet Fielding, Australian).
However, the enigmatic Turlough will still be around.

     2.  "The Five Doctors" will feature not only the Doctors but also
many former members of the cast, such as the Brigadier (Nicholas
Courteney) and Zoe (Wendy Padbury).  I have heard a rumour that the
Dr's "granddaughter" (she wasn't - he actually adopted her) will
reappear, though whether again played by Carole Ann Ford I can't say.

     3.  Dr Who transcends mere questions of literary merit.  It is
utterly compulsive, addicting, ...  Part of its charm (to me) is that
it is a children's program of the good kind: made by (and for) adults
who can enter into the child's world of values.  Feel free to
disagree.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 83 14:43:53-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!llf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Why does everyone like Dr. Who

     Who ever has a comprehensive answer to this question, please post
it, or send me mail, too.  I'd never heard of Dr. Who before this
summer, and don't know if the show is availible in NJ.  But it sure
does generate talk!

LyndaF

------------------------------

Date: 19 November 1983 00:08 est
From: TMPLee.DODCSC at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: The Five Doctors

     Concerning "The Five Doctors": it is the twentieth aniversary
show -- the first show was aired November 23, 1963.

     At least here in the Twin Cities the PBS station is making a big
enough deal about it that they are showing it on the same day
(November 23) as it is being shown in England.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 83 14:23:00-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!avsdT.deborah @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who 20th anniversary episode (bay area)

     KTEH, Channel 54 , will be showing 'The Five Doctors' ( the 20th
anniversary episode of Dr. Who) on Friday December 1, sometime during
prime time.  The episode is 2 hours long.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 83 9:29:17-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxe!rainbow @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: what is a Dr. Who

     Okay, my curiousity has finally reached a sufficient level now
that I am reasonably sure that there is a character named Dr. Who from
reading previous articles. I have never heard of Dr. Who. Who is he.
Or better yet, what is he? Could someone please shed some light on the
subject?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 83 12:26:21-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!clyde!akgua!emory!gatech!ofut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Why does everyone like Dr. Who

     As was said, Dr. Who has bad acting, bad script and bad plots but
it has that *magic* that is so seldom seen and never understood.
*magic* does not capture everybody and everyone seems to have a
different opinion of what *magic* is and what it is not.

     R. Howard was not (in a literary regard) a good writer.  His
characters were shallow and the plots almost silly but he sure had a
big piece of that *Magic*.  I love everything I've ever read by
Howard, even though I can laugh about it later.

     For me, Dr. Who is indeed rather poorly done but it's *magic*
with a capital MAG.

--
Jeff Offutt
School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA
CSNet:  Ofut @ GATech           ARPA:   Ofut.GATech @ Csnet-Relay
uucp:
...!{akgua,allegra,rlgvax,sb1,unmvax,ut-ngp,ut-sally}!gatech!ofut

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 83 12:21:19-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Why does everyone like Dr. Who

     Everybody likes The Doctore because he's great.  Could be 'nuff
said here, but I will elaborate.

     Everybody knows and accepts that many people on the staff of
Doctor Who don't know what they are working with, so we often get bad
special effects and silly stories.  But for me, it is the *character*
that is everything.  (For others, too.  Many Doctor Who fans come and
go with each new doctor) The idea of a whimiscal genius with
incredible knowledge and power wandering time and space with just the
right amount of silliness really appeals to me.

     How many other SF heros would say: "Excuse me, are you sure this
planet's meant to be here?"  (This from Douglas Adams' "Pirate Planet"
serial) "Of course I like you.  I like lots of people.  I don't go
carting them around the universe with me."  (To Leela at the end of
"The Face of Evil")

     These are all Tom Baker, the doctor I have seen the most of.  I
think he is superior to Pertwee, the only other one I have seen, but
others disagree.  I think his acting is superb.

--
        Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 83 11:49:35-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!cmaz504 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Why does everyone like Dr. Who

     I'm told that one of the reasons the production quality on Dr.
Who is so bad is that 1) not that much money is spent on special
effects compared to say Battlestar Glactica or even Star Trek and 2)
the shows themselves are reheared for a few days and then the scenes
are done in one take. That doesn't leave much time to worry about
lighting, subtle acting and other qualities that make a "good" show.
Under these conditions I'm surprised very frequently by just how good
the shows are. One other problem that people tend to have with Dr Who
is that it IS British. Like Monty Python it could be an acquired
taste.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 83 22:27:24-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!speaker @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The TARDIS - (nf)

     The first Doctor in the Doctor Who series had a grandaughter
named susan... who always called the Doctor "grandfather."

     Their exact relationship has never been rigidly defined by the
BBC.

                               - Speaker-To-Stuffed-Animals
                               speaker@umcp-cs
                               speaker.umcp-cs@CSnet-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 83 20:37:35-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!whuxle!bjb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Where is Who? (in N.J.) - (nf)

     Has Dr. Who disappered from NJ TV?  I wasn't able to find it the
last couple of weeks, does anybody know how/when to get it on Morris
Cablevision?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1983  10:33 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Adams - The Meaning of Life - (nf)

     Is actually called, "The Meaning of Lif" (note, not Life), and is
totally unrelated to the Monty Python film.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 83 13:43:49 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: "exquisite" in SCRABBLE

     If my memory serves me correctly (I haven't played SCRABBLE in a
while) the word "exquisite" on a triple word would score 75 points as
follows: (1 + 8 + 10 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1) * 3.  Sorry, it doesn't
add up to 42.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 83 22:42:42-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!philabs!seismo!speaker @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: The base is thirteen - (nf)

        We know that Arthur has the question in his brain patterns
        because Marvin saw it there.

We know that Marvin saw AN answer there... but we son't know if it was
the correct answer or not.

        It could not be "What is 6 times 9" because if it was then
        Arthur would know both the question and the answer at the
        same time (quite impossible).

He didn't know the question, even if it was in his head.  Besides, the
experiment was "cocked up" anyway so it wasn't the right question.

I'll bet Marvin didn't know what the answer was anyway, since Arthur
was the only one who talked to Slartibartfast and found out about
"Deep Thought" et al.

                                   - Speaker-To-Stuffed-Animals
                                   speaker@umcp-cs
                                   speaker.umcp-cs@CSnet-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 83 15:22:06-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!philabs!seismo!@ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The base is thirteen

     "But the cavemen died out, which messed up the organic computer,
so the question is wrong" (paraphrased)

     Ah, but the great pan-dimensional beings which look like mice to
us have been conducting experiments on human for a long time, things
like forcing them to watch the beings run through mazes, etc.  Since
the organic computer was so complex, it presumably incorporated such
modern techniques as redundancy and self- checking. The mice have been
on earth for a long time, and would have had ample opportunity to make
any corrections to the earth/computer needed to compensate for all the
telephone sanitizers and hairdressers who showed up and killed off the
cavemen. After all, they were fairly close to earth-native (caveman)
hiumans, so it might not be much of a change.

Mike Ciaraldi
Rochester

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1983 00:21:30-EST
From: Edward.Tecot@CMU-CS-H
Subject: The Meaning of Lif

     The book, "The Meaning of Lif" has no relation to the movie, "The
Meaning of Life", as I understand it.  The book is simply about what
the names of cities might mean if they were in the Enlish language.
"So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish" is supposed to be the second
final book in the Hitchhiker's trilogy.

                                                _emt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Nov 83 0839-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #117
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 117

Today's Topics:

                   Administriva--Hail and Farewell,
                    Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs),
              Books - James Blish (6 msgs) & David Brin

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 83 08:30:36 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Administriva--Hail and Farewell

Dear All:

     From the way things look, this will be my last week of working on
SF-Lovers.

     Because of political reasons (i.e., recent concern over invasion
of various computer systems), I will be losing my account soon.

     I am now currently accepting applications for somebody to take
over the position of Moderator.

     It has been fun.  I am sorry to be leaving, but it will be a
little hard to send out SF-L if I don't have an account!  Ah well,
this will give me more time for my professional writing--i.e., reviews
and game designs...

Thanks for all the fish,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III
Moderator,
SF-Lovers Digest

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 83 15:45:00-PST (Sat)
From: ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Five Doctors (Chicago Area)

     The Five Doctors, (the just-released 20th Anniversary show of
Doctor Who, the English Science-Fiction Show), will be showing this
upcoming WEDNESDAY at 10:30 running for approximately two hours.  Note
this is for the Chicago area on WTTW.  I have also heard that it wil
be shown in the Bay Area on December 1.:wq

                                          Walt Pesch
                                    AT&T Western Electric

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 83 17:45:51-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who - the story

This is a reprint of an article that was submitted to the net about a
year ago.  I hope it helps clarify the Dr. Who situation to people
"who" don't know about the good Doctor.

                               Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP:  {decvax,ucbvax,inuxc,harpo,uiucdc}!pur-ee!Physics:dub
ARPA:       dub @ pur-phy.UUCP


From:   "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:   7-DEC-1982 20:28
Subj:   The Doctor's regenerations

                        THE MANY FACES OF DR. WHO


In response to the not-100%-accurate stuff going around about Dr. Who:

I discovered the good doctor in early 1981 and latched on to the
series with the same fervent joy expressed when I discovered Star Trek
in 1967.  So, the following is gathered from books, magazines,
conventions, and miscellaneous and I stand by its accuracy.

Dr. Who premiered November 23, 1963 on the BBC.  The Doctor was played
by William Hartnell, a highly respected veteran actor.  He had a
granddaughter, Susan, and kidnapped (yes, kidnapped!) two of her
teachers (Ian and Barbara) when they stumbled into the TARDIS.  It was
at this time that the chameleon circuit broke, leaving the TARDIS
stuck in the shape of a blue police box.  (TARDIS stands for Time And
Relative Dimensions In Space; police box is a contraption that served
as a sort of telephone booth for British police - when the light at
the top blinked, the nearest bobby was supposed to call in.  These
devices are now obsolete.)  The first Doctor was played as an
anti-hero and was a very grouchy old man.

Hartnell left the series in the middle of the fourth season due to ill
health.  The BBC, which had already handled the problem of companions
wanting to leave the show by writing them out and writing new ones in,
then came up with the novel idea of the Doctor having to regenerate
due to his bad health as the "reason" for his change in appearance and
personality.  According to the official canons (as I remember hearing
it), this was the Doctor's first regeneration.

The Second Doctor was Patrick Troughton, a veteran character actor who
shows up all over the British tube (spotted him in All Creatures Great
and Small, with Peter Davison, the Fifth Doctor).  His Doctor was a
clown/hobo, who disarmed people by being very silly, played the
recorder, and was given to offering people jellybabies, gobstoffers,
and the like.  The Doctor's second life came to an end at the end of
the sixth season when he ran into a situation too much for him to
handle and he was forced to call upon his fellow Time Lords for help.
Help him they did, and they thanked him for the information that made
them aware of that terrible mess - then they tried him for the crime
of perenniel interference and sentenced him to involuntary
regeneration and exile to Earth.  (Two behind-the-scenes reasons for
this: Troughton wanted to move on, and the BBC budget shrank, so they
needed cheaper sets.  The next three seasons are almost entirely on
Earth - and on locations within 25 miles of London.)

The Third Doctor was Jon Pertwee, a comedian and caberet performer.
His Doctor was very much the dandy and very into gadgets - he produced
the sonic screwdriver, the whomobile, a who hovercraft, a who
helicoptor, and a whoed-up Edwardian roadster named Bessie.  It was
Pertwee's Doctor who worked for UNIT (although it was Troughton's
Doctor who first met the Brigadier) and Pertwee's Doctor who came
across the Master for the first time.  The Third Doctor spent a lot of
time protecting Earth from invading aliens and found himself on
occasion trying to protect the invading aliens from Earth.  He also
found himself at the beck and call of Gallifrey, being sent on
missions to provide his special brand of interference.

As a tenth anniversary special, the Three Doctors were reunited to
combat a menace to their/his home world of Gallifrey, much to the
chagrin of the Brigadier, who had finally got used to the idea that
his friend the Third Doctor was also his friend the Second Doctor and
now found himself confronted with both at once and a third that he had
never met!  At the end of this story, the Doctor's exile was lifted.

At the end of the eleventh season, Pertwee was ready to go.  The story
here was that the Doctor had picked up something on his travels that
he had to return, and in doing so suffered radiation damage to the
point of death.  Another Time Lord intervened, and started up a
greatly accelerated regeneration.  Hence the Doctor's "erratic"
behavior in Robot.

Tom Baker played the Fourth Doctor.  Those who have seen his
predecessors say that he combines characteristics of all three of
them.  Features of the Baker era are the scarf(s), pockets,
jellybabies, K-9, the return of the Master, and two trips to
Gallifrey.  Baker played the Doctor for seven years, making him the
current record-holder.  These shows are all available in the U.S.,
from two different distributors and trimmed down (**expletives deleted
by automatic net censoring program**) to fit half-hour viewing slots.

In the eighteenth season Baker began to feel that it was time to move
on, so his Doctor fell to his regeneration at the end of Logopolis
(which is full of truly marvelous backpointers to events and details
all the way back to the very first Doctor Who).

The Fifth (and present) Doctor is played by Peter Davison.  He wears a
sort of cricketeer's uniform (which looks very preppy to me), the
shirt with question mark lapels that Baker wore in his last year, and
a stalk of celery in his coat lapel (because "it's civilised").  He is
into cricket.  His Doctor is less reliant on gadgetry (hence the
departure of K-9 with Romana, and the loss of the sonic screwdriver in
a Davison story called The Visitation).  The Master is still around.
And, alas, no scarf.  The Doctor unravels it to find his way around
the TARDIS during his latest regeneration, a fate he saved it from in
the labryinth on Minos (or was it Crete?).  I've seen three Davison
stories, and he is good.  (It seems to be an established fact that
your favorite Doctor is the first Doctor you see, no matter how much
you like the others.)  Some of the events are given away in the Dr Who
guide available to this list, but all I will say is that one companion
leaves the show, another seems to leave but will be back, and a
certain category of villains will return.  The twentieth season will
have a former companion in every story - the Brigadier is confirmed.
The Black Guardian, whom the Doctor foils at the end of the Key to
Time series, is also back.  And the Doctor will return to Gallifrey.

The nineteenth season, which is the first year of Davison's Doctor,
will be available in the U.S. starting January 1; the twentieth season
will become available in March, and the twenty-first season in March
1984.  There is a two-hour twentieth birthday special being planned -
I'm not sure what the distribution for that is.  And a series called
the Five Faces of Doctor Who, featuring the very first Doctor Who
story, a Troughton story, the Three Doctors, a Pertwee story, and
Logopolis, is supposed to be distributed as a package.  (Harass your
local stations!)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 83 9:47:45-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxa!gek @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: book review

     I just read Piers Anthony's Dragon on a Pedestal and his Bio of a
Space Tyrant. Following are my ratings:

     DoaP--Charming. Far better than any xanth book since Castle
Roogna.  Ivy, the daughter of Dor and Iris, explores Xanth while still
a mere 3 years old (There! I think I said that without giving away
anything!).  I hope further xanth books are as entertaining.

     BoaSP--I'm sorry. I cannot accept this book as worthwhile.
Anthony's expressed goal in this book is to apologize for the likes of
Hitler. No flames, please, PA says so in the intro. PA sets up the
reputation of the space tyrant as a Hitler-class monstrosity, then
spends the whole book excusing him on the basis of a tough childhood.
Horse plop! Such excuses are no excuse! I'm reminded of PA's G-d of
Tarot series, an attempt to excuse blasphemy as holiness. such
doublethink is not acceptable from PA, in view of his considerable
talent.

glenn kapetansky

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1983  10:36 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: book search...James Blish

     It may be The Day after Judgment by James Blish, (or Black
Sunday/sabbath by the same author.  I'm not too sure of the title).

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 83 9:25:55-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxa!gek @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: book search

Kevin@su-dsn:

     BLACK EASTER by James Blish, is about G-d being usurped
(finally!)  by Satan, at which point Satan finds himself forced to be
G-d.  It is the second of a two book series concerning the conflict
between white and black magics. I enjoyed them, but damned (irony
unintended) if I can remember the title of the first book.  I'd be
willing, if you mailed me a "other books by J.B." list from BLACK
EASTER, to tell you which it is.

glenn

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 83 11:35:58-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!hou5h!hou5a!hou5d!hogpc!hogpd!jrrt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Black Easter

     I disagree with the plot summary recently given concerning Black
Easter.  The book is indeed by James Blish, and is certainly part of a
three-book series examining Humanity and Religion.

     Black Easter is Blish's attempt to show two things.  First, what
form magic would really take in our "advanced" mechanistic society?
The emphasis is on the mechanics of sorcery, the role of the Catholic
Church, and the effect of hubris on powerful, if flawed, human beings.
The second purpose of the book is tell a good scary story.  Blish
succeeds admirably, even if you are not fond of horror/supernatural
fiction (and I'm not).

     I won't spoil the ending, except to say I was surprised and
impressed.  I would suggest, though, that glenn reread the last
chapter or two; to claim the book ends with "Satan finds himself
forced to be God" is wrong.

     I *think* the first book in the series is called "The Island {?}
of Dr. Mirabilis;" I know the third is the classic "A Case of
Conscience."  Sorry I don't have the exact title; I've lent my copies
out...

Rob Mitchell
hogpd!jrrt

------------------------------

Date: Fri 18 Nov 83 10:37:44-EST
From: LAMB%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: James Blish

     Sorry to include a long text, but someone asked:

Subject: book search..
From: kevinw at SU-DSN@ISL at Sumex-Aim

     "I have been told about a book (perhaps by Piers Anthony or Poul
Anderson) (maybe a short from a magazine) about a time when God gets
sick and dies leaving the devil holding the bag.  Problem is, it
doesn't take too long before the devil decides he got the raw end of
the deal and was better off before, but now its too late -- he has got
to play god.

      "Anybody know where I can find this?  Sounds like it could be a
fairly interesting/amusing story if it exists."

     This particular story doesn't ring a bell, but reminded me of a
pair of books by James Blish: ``Black Easter'' and ``The Day After
Judgement.''  In the first, a modern magician arranges to let all the
demons out of Hell for one night.  The second is a sequel.  Neither is
a particularly amusing story; in fact they're rather grim.  I thought
they were worth reading, though.  In any case, the second ends with
the protagonists meeting Satan, who has discovered that now that God
has vanished (for whatever reasons; never explained in either book)
he's left having to fulfil the role.

     Blish wrote at least two other books dealing with the
relationship between man and God, and particularly with mankind's
desire for knowlege.  ``Doctor Mirabilis'' I haven't read yet. ``A
Case of Conscience'' is a very good book; I believe it won some sort
of award, but don't remember which one.  In it, a Catholic priest is
sent to investigate some planet which appears to present conclusive
proof of evolution; he has to struggle very hard with the conflict
between his faith and the evidence of his eyes.  A very thoughtful
book; it ends in a way that leaves you to make your own conclusions.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 83 14:06:37-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!ucbcad!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: book search.. - (nf)

     Sounds for all the world like "Day After Judgement" by James
Blish.  This is the sequel to the GREAT book "Black Easter". By the
way, God doesn't get sick, it is armageddon.

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 83 9:55:06-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!duke!phs!jtb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Info on David Brin

     In response to favorable reviews and requests for information
concerning David Brin I summerize the following out of Jay Kay Klines
Biolog column in the November issue of Analog: David Brin began
sundiver while getting his bachelor's degree in astronomy at Caltech
it was his first submitted work and was published by the time he
completed his Ph.D. in Applied Physics and Space Science at UC San
Diego.  He worked for Huges for 4 years and is now a consultant to the
Cal. Space Institute. His second submission was the novelette "The
Tides of Kithrup" which was the cover story in the May 81 Analog.
This was expanded into the novel "Startide Rising".  Early next year
Bantum will publish his next novel "The Practice Effect".  He also
published a story "The Postman" in Issac Asimov's Magazine.  The
biolog article goes on to describe Brins ideas on the role of science
fiction in society which are quite interesting.

Jose Torre-Bueno
decvax!duke!phs!jtb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Nov 83 0850-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #118
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 118

Today's Topics:
                   Administriva--Hail and Farewell,
         Books - M.A. Foster (2 msgs) & Jack Vance (2 msgs) &
                             Gene Wolfe,
      Mixed Message - Douglas Adams and M.A. Foster and Michael
                   Moorcock and Jack Vance (1 msg),
          Fandom - SF clubs & Buttons Seen at SF Conventions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 83 08:30:36 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Administriva--Hail and Farewell

Dear All:

     From the way things look, this will be my last week of working on
SF-Lovers.

     Because of political reasons (i.e., recent concern over invasion
of various computer systems), I will be losing my account soon.

     I am now currently accepting applications for somebody to take
over the position of Moderator.

     It has been fun.  I am sorry to be leaving, but it will be a
little hard to send out SF-L if I don't have an account!  Ah well,
this will give me more time for my professional writing--i.e., reviews
and game designs...

Thanks for all the fish,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III
Moderator,
SF-Lovers Digest

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1983 14:11-EST
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@NRL-AIC>
Subject: M. A. Foster

     I have enjoyed M. A. Foster's books for a long time, and also
wondered about the author's sex.  When book reviews and some
discussions in SF-Lovers (around 1980-81?) used the male pronoun, I
wondered.  After all, Tiptree had everyone confused too, and there
were those well-developed female characters in the books.  Somehow
the whole tone of tWoD seemed the kind of sensitive, caring writing
that I have come to expect from Bradley, Clayton, and Norton and no
male authors.  My doubts were put to rest when I read (and I believe
this was in SF-Lovers) a note from someone who knew Meg Foster and
claimed she was the woman who wrote as M. A. Foster.

     Last month I went to RoVaCon and met Mike Foster, the author of
all those good books.  We talked about the ler language--he says it's
derived from Chinese.  I urged him to work on an idea he had
considered --a collection of short ler stories, perhaps along the
lines of a fable that was included in tWoD or tGoZ.  There is clearly
a lot of lerology that appears in none of the three published novels.
The biography from the RoVaCon program book appears at the end of this
message.

     I thought he had come out with a sequel to Waves, though, with a
title something like Pressure Man.  I don't recall it as being very
good, which would explain its being omitted from the bio.

Dan Hoey

----------------------------------------------------------------

Michael Anthony Foster from Greensboro, North Carolina, is one of DAW
Books' leading SF authors.  His first book, The Warriors of Dawn,
billed on the back cover as a ``fine new novel'' and ``the debut of a
great SF talent,'' appeared in 1975.  The cover was designed by our
own Frank Kelly Freas [sponsor of the RoVaCon Art Scholarship].

The novel was the first in a trilogy about genetically created
supermen and superwomen, one of whom teams up with a normal human male
against interstellar pirates.  The next book was The Gameplayers of
Zan, published in 1977 (a prequel to Warriors), and the third book was
The Day of the Klesh, 1979.

Foster's next book was Waves (1980), and in 1981 DAW brought out The
Morphodite.  Its sequel, The Transformer [probable typo--my copy omits
the definite article], appeared in 1983.  Hallucinations>, four short
novels under one cover (only one of which is previously published)
will appear in 1984.  A work in progress is to be called Candastara,
and will tentatively be out in 1985.

M. A. Foster is a two-time nominee for the John Campbell Award for
Best New Writer which is given annually by the World Science Fiction
Convention.  He is a former data systems analyst and was an ICBM
launch crew commander in the U. S. Air Force.  Since 1978 he has been
employed as a salesman of welding supplies and industrial/medical
gasses, and he is as involved currently with metallurgy as he was
formerly with electronics and signal propagation.  He is a
semi-professional photographer, a novice bass guitarist, and also an
articulate panelist at conventions here and elsewhere.  M. A. Foster
has already made his mark among the cadre of science fiction
novelists, and we are proud to have him on the RoVaCon Advisory Board.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 83 9:20:07-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!duke!phs!jtb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: M.A. Foster

     I was told by the owner of a science fiction bookstore that M. A.
Foster is:

     1) A male

     2) Had an interesting background (but I dont remember what it
        was!)

     3) Is still working at a "normal" job (which I again dont
        remember!)

     4) Lives here in North Carolina

     Also he was the guest of honor at a something-con in NC. I wasn't
there but I think I would have heard if a woman showed up!  While we
are on this topic at one point I sussuspected Jon Varley was a woman
but my sister met him.  As you know James Tiptree is a woman. There is
a very funny introduction in one of her books in which a famous SF
author says how Tiptree is clearly a man judging from the stories and
Tiptree adds a footnote saying she dosen't want to embarras him
(evidently a friend but by corrispondence only) and confesses that she
is a woman!

Jose Torre-Bueno decvax!duke!phs!jtb

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 83 16:49:15 EST
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: the alastor books

     I checked my books and they are about a globular cluster called
Alastor.  Each book is about a world in the cluster and the title give
the name and cluster number of the world.  Ie., "Marune: Alastor 933"
is about the planet Marune which is planet 933 in the Alastor cluster.

ds

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 83 2:09:43-EST (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!ucbcad!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: the alastor books - (nf)

     Take it from another Vance fanatic (hey I have a proof of
Lyonesse), the Alastor books all refer to a cluster, not a pecific
planet. The numbers refer to the star number. So "Marune:Alastor 933"
means star 933 in the Alastor cluster, and the planet Marune.

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 83 19:06:39-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH is out in paperback

[This is part of a batch of articles from San Diego that the rest of
the net never saw, because our net connection was down -- sorry if you
have seen this before, or if the discussion seems dated.]

Date: Fri, 21-Oct-83 23:50:34 PDT

     This book is the last volume of Gene Wolfe's tetralogy, THE BOOK
OF THE NEW SUN.  There are some very good reviews in the front, even
from the New York Times.  My own glowing review has appeared on the
net.  A warning: if you haven't read the previous three volumes then
you probably won't understand CITADEL; of course this is no guarantee
that you WILL understand the book if you read the previous volumes...
but you're off to a good start.  I re-read all four volumes this
summer in hardback and learned lots of new things...  Buy it.

     I also read Avram Davidson's strange book THE PHOENIX AND THE
MIRROR.  I am tickled that there appear to be a couple connections
between this book and Wolfe's tetralogy; in particular Davidson's
protagonist at one point wears a cloak of 'that nameless color which
is darker than black', and mentions the term 'lictor', meaning
executioner.  Curiously, the word 'lictor' is absent from Wolfe's
glossary of words from THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER in THE CASTLE OF THE
OTTER; perhaps he considers this word so common as to be not worth
describing...  (Not that the glossary is anything like complete!  And
the words are not always for real, merely 'almost always'.  A funny
definition: 'ONEGARS: My erroneous spelling of ONAGERS.  I should look
these things up.') Did anyone else like THE PHOENIX AND THE MIRROR? My
feelings are somewhat qualified, but there are parts of the book that
really shine...

Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W (619) 452-4016 sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@noscvax

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1983 12:52:06 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay
Subject: Comments on Vol 8, No. 115

     1) How much could one score in scrabble(tm) with the word
"exquisite", given that it was placed on a triple-word-score block.?
It's highly variable, for several reasons.  Since a player has, at
most, seven letters in his/her hand, two of the letters of the word
must have already been on the board.  While it's true that the new
word would acquire the values of these letters, it would not get
credit for any "bonus" squares that they lay on.  A nine-letter word
touching a triple-word bonus square would also cover other bonuses --
either one double-letter and a second triple-word, or two
double-letter squares, depending on where the previously-placed
letters were on the board.  Finally, if the player had used up all the
letters on the rack, there would be the additional fifty-point bonus
(known as a "bingo" in Scrabble jargon) for doing so.  The basic score
for 'exquisite' would be 25, which would then be tripled to 75, but
the maximum score possible is very much higher.

     2) The M. A. Foster question came up not too long ago, and I
submitted a summary of his (yes, it's "he" -- Michael Anthony, to be
precise) listing in the SF Encyclopedia to the digest.  It appeared
somewhere around issue 95 of the current volume, and interested folks
ought to check the archives.  [Perhaps our noble editor would insert
the precise reference info for their benefit...]

     3) The titles of the Elric volumes have varied somewhat,
depending on when and where (US vs. UK) they were published.  The
contents have also undergone some modifications over time.  Full
details on this stuff, and on Moorcock's work in general, is found in
the excellent annotated bibliography "The Tanelorn Archives",
available from a small press out in North Dakota, or from your
favorite sf mail-order shop.

     4) The intro's to the various Alastor books specifically state
that the books are situated on different planets within the "Alastor
Cluster"; the planets are numbered for easy reference by the Cluster's
administrators.  They do not refer to the same planet over a period of
time.

Dave Axler
(Axler@Upenn)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 83 12:07:25-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdccs6!iy120 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SF clubs

Science Fiction Fans!

     How many people out there belong to Science Fiction Clubs?  I
belong to a SF club, called "Dark Star", that is interested in
contacting other clubs.  We are based at UCSD.  We attempted about a
year or so ago to start a round-robin between the various SF clubs in
the UC system.  Unfortunatly, this did not get off with a bang but a
wimper!

     We are interested in what activities you do as a club.  Like fund
raising, club libraries, book discussions, star gazing trips, movie
trips, .....

     Do you all have the problem of nasty male-female ratios? ( ie:
lots more males then females.  Any suggestions for remidies to the
above situation?

     We developed political power mongering problems whenever we had
any sizable amount of money to do things with.  Our solution was to
stop having any money laying around.  Any other solutions, or money
problems( other then not having any!)?

     We also have encountered an interesting phonemenon.  Most of the
techn. oriented members are comp-sci majors.  Not really too
suprising....

     Well, I guess I'll leave it at that for now,


                          -- Don Coleman
                             sdcsvax!sdccsu3!iy120
                             { reigning president of "Dark Star" }
                               soon to be Dictator! Ha, Ha, Ha!

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 83 19:03:26-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!ciaraldi @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Buttons Seen at SF Cons

Also seen:

I don't get mad
I get odd

This button is blank
when you're not looking at it

(I showed that one to Prof. Gacs, expert in CS theory,
and asked "Can we prove this within our logical system?"
He replied, "The problem is--can we disprove it?"

(With a drawing of a dumpy little alien):
So, I'm a little FAT green man from outer space.

Mike Ciaraldi
ciaraldi@rochester

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Nov 83 1253-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #119
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 27 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 119

Today's Topics:
              Query - Lost Books and Other Love Affairs,
            Fandom - SF Clubs & SF Cons List & Filksongs &
                         Walden SF Book Club,
                    Space -CalSpace info request,
                    Television - Dr. Who (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 83 10:36:25-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!duke!unc!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!iedl02!dca @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Wanted : out of print

     Help!  I want to obtain a book by Lloyd Biggle which is long out
of print.  It's one of my favorites by him but not apparently one of
the ones issued by the SF book club so not easy to find in used book
stores.

     People have been issuing information about places that get hard
to find books but they all seem the walk in kind are there any mail
order of this kind of operation (mind you this isn't a new book).

     The book is "The Small Still Voice of Trumpets" any info would be
appreciated.

David Albrecht
General Electric
Charlottesville, VA
decvax!duke!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!iedl02!dca

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 83 21:00:01-PST (Wed)
From: menlo70!nsc!dbell @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: I want to find a book

     Several years ago I read a trilogy, and I want to know what it
was.

     In the first story, the main character (say "Joe") crash landed
on an uninhabited planet, and while there found an invisible creature
which took residence in his brain.  This creature was a "mental
symbiote", and could mentally communicate with Joe, to give him advice
and such.  But it (usually) left Joe able to control his own body and
make his own decisions.  Joe resented the creature's presence, and
wanted it to go away, but it was unable to leave until Joe died, at
which time it would find another body to inhabit.

     Joe eventually got rescued, and as payment to the rescuer, had to
perform various tasks for many years.  Each of the three books
concerns one of his tasks.  (This setup is a lot like the "Stainless
Steel Rat" stories).  Along the way the creature becomes more and more
important to Joe, and after a while Joe doesn't resent it, and instead
depends on it to help him.

     In one of the stories Joe had to go to a planet where everyone
lived in tunnels.  In the final story, Joe had to fight something in a
strange nebula connected to some alternate universe, and the creature
died, leaving Joe all alone and unhappy.

     That is all I remember about the trilogy.  Can anyone tell me
what the titles are, or who wrote them?  Thanks!!

------------------------------

Date: 23 November 1983 01:45 EST
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: SF clubs

Don,

     Not far from you there is the LASFS (L.A. Science Fantasy
Society).  I'll give you details if 50,000 other people haven't
already done so.

-- Steve

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1983 2117-PST
From: Zellich@OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons List updated

     OFFICE-3 file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready
for FTP.  OFFICE-3 supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within
FTP, using any password.

     CONS.TXT is currently 957 lines (or 47,635 characters).  Please
try to limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if
possible, as the system is generally heavily loaded during the day.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1983  13:30 EST (Tue)
From: Arturo Perez@MIT-EECS <UC.ART@MIT-EECS>
Subject: more verses

     I would love to receive a copy of as many songs as you have, if
you don't mind swnding them.  Thanx.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1983  13:21 EST (Tue)
From: Arturo Perez@MIT-EECS <UC.ART@MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Walden SF Book Club

     Could I please be sent more information on this?  Thanx.  Have
Fun!

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 83 16:38:34-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!duke!phs!jtb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: CalSpace info request

     Someone posted some interesting info about CalSpace to the net
and offered to get respondents added to their mailing list.
Unfortunatly I am unable to send mail to the address given: sdccs6.
Would anyone on the net who is affiliated with CalSpace please ask
them to add me to their mailing list or send me their address.

Thanks,
Jose Torre-Bueno
decvax!duke!phs!jtb
1009 Urban Ave.
Durham NC 27701

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 83 21:16:36-PST (Sat)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who delight

     For all you Who-ites (fans of Dr. Who) out there out there you
might like to know that WTTW is presenting on Weds. Nov. 23 at 10:30
(central time) a very different episode of Dr. Who which is called The
Five Doctors Who.

     I don't know anything about the history of this episode but it
contains all FIVE incarnations of the Doctor starring together in any
episode that contains many villians including the Cybermen and the
Daleks!  It looks like a Who-ite fantasy come true.

        Watch for it!

                               Dwight Bartholomew

UUCP:  {decvax,ucbvax,inuxc,harpo,uiucdc}!pur-ee!Physics:dub
ARPA:  dub @ pur-phy.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 83 10:24:28-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!daemon @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Another announcement for NH and MA Dr. Who fans...

From: Ed Featherston  HL01-1/P06  225-5241 <roll::featherston>

     New Hampshire PBS channel 11 will celebrate the 20th anniversary
of Dr. Who with a special showing of "The Five Doctors" serial this
Wednesday ( 11/23 ) at 9:00 P.M..

                                /ed featherston/

                   Email address : ...decvax!decwrl!rhea!featherston

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1983 10:27:59-EST
From: Edward.Tecot@CMU-CS-H
Subject: Re: Where is Who?

     If you live close enough to receive Philly TV stations, the good
Doctor can be seen on Channel 12, WHYY at 11:00PM on weekdays.  I am
not sure as to which Doctor is being shown now, as of when I left,
Davidson's episode (I forget the name) where Tegan gets stuck in
Heathrowe (sp?) was followed by Pertwee's "Inferno" (hmmm, has a ring
to it, Dante <==> Pertwee) Personally, I prefer Davidson, but then
again, he was the first I saw.  I plan on catching a few episodes when
I return to DE on Wednesday.

                                        _emt
                                        (Ed Tecot)
                                        tecot@CMU-CS-H

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 83 16:12:29-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2a!argo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who Question

     For the past few months, some friends of mine have been driving
me crazy with a quote from a Dr. Who show.  On the back of every piece
of paper, and often in greeting or parting, I am hailed with the
initials, C.H.B.M.  To make matters worse, they will not tell me what
these initials stand for.  After a substantial amount of threatening
and blackmailing I have gathered a few facts:

1)  The quote came from a Tom Baker episode, which was either
    the first or last that K9 was in.(I'm not too sure about
    the K9 bit, my friend was laughing at the time.)

2)  The name of the episode was "Dr. Who and the Invisible
    Enemy", or some reasonable facsimile thereof.

     Please, send me conjectures, or better yet answers, on this most
annoying matter.  All help will be appreciated, and will help me get
some revenge by finding this out.

                                    Thanks,
                                    Andrew Garrett

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Nov 83 1256-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #120
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 27 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:
                         Music - David Bowie,
              Film - Dune & The Star Wars Saga (6 msgs),
          Events - Harvard Film Archieve December SF Listing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1983 at 19:46 EST
From: Alan & Carole Zeichick <ZEICHICK%MAINE.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Major Tom

Address:   130 Moosehead Blvd., Bangor, ME  04401
Phone:     (207) 942-7512

     Who knows anything about the story behind the song "Major Tom"?
Is this the same story as the song by David Bowie, and any relation to
the movie "The Man Who Fell to Earth"?  We're sort of curious.

Alan & Carole

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 83 12:17:35-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxq!grumpy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: More on "Dune"

     At the request for more information about "Dune" (after telling
about a Dune fan club in net.movies); the following is an excerpt from
"The Movie Magazine," Winter 83/84 Volume II, Number 1:

        Science fiction fans around the world rejoiced when Frank
        Herbert's 1965 Hugo-award-winning novel "Dune" was slated
        for the big screen, but they'll have to wait until December
        1984 to see the epic.  Principal photography was completed
        this past September, but post-production work (special
        effects and editing) will take a full year.  "Dune" was
        shot in Mexico, where cast and crew took over all eight
        soundstages at Churubusco Studios, plus three backlot sets,
        two "subsidiary" locations within Mexico City (including
        the city dump, called by some crew members the "dead dog
        dump"), and the Salamayuca desert near Juarez.  And how
        will writer-director David Lynch ("Elephant Man") and
        company render the blue-within-blue Fremen eyes?  By
        computer--frame by frame.  Creature creator Carlo Rimbaldi
        (who did the rubber baby aliens in "Close Encounters," and
        E. T. himself) is in Los Angeles working on the Guild
        Navigator and great sandworms.

     A caption to a picture of a women dressed in a white gown on the
same page reads:

        British actress Francesca Annis as Jessica, mother of Paul
        Atreides and disciple of the Bene Gesserit sect in "Dune."

     Also shown is a scene of some Fremen fighting with lasguns among
piles of large boulders.  Its caption reads:

        Stillsuited warriors on the planet "Dune."

     So now you know as much as I do about the upcoming movie "Dune."

     See you in the movie theaters in '84!

                                Michael E. Bentz
                                ihuxq!grumpy

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 83 22:49:58-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!jab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Query: Time Interval Between TESB an - (nf)

     In response to the question "How much time elapsed between TESB
and ROTJ?"

     I don't know; one would assume that it was at least three months
(time for Lando to return with Chewie and then go to Jabba's palace,
ALONE) and probably less than three years (gut feeling, since much
longer and Yoda would have said something about Luke being away so
long --- you know by Yoda's comments that Luke hasn't been back since
he left to rescue his friends.)

     Call it a year or so?

        Jeff Bowles
        Lisle, IL

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 83 8:09:45-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!nmtvax!slj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Death Star Size

     One question that I have been wondering for quite a while: how
big is the Death Star?  I have come up with a figure of about 100
miles.

     >From the computer graphics used by the Alliance when they brief
the audience about it, one might say that the DS is about 1/15th the
diameter of Endor.  This is the only view that makes it look that
small: ususally it looks even larger.  Judging by the only good view
of it from space, when the entire Alliance comes out of hyperspace,
the DS is about 1/6th the size of Endor, no doubt due to its being
closer to the camera than Endor.  Other views are from too close, and
all one sees is a large piece of it arcing across the sky.  Noting
generally very Earthlike conditions prevailing on Endor, I guess that
it probably isn't smaller than about 6000 miles in diameter.  [If
there are any physicists out there, you might want to point out any
major inadequacies of this guess.]  Assuming that all the views are
exaggerated, and assigning a lower bound of 1/60th the diameter of
Endor, this gives a DS size of about 100 miles.

     On the other hand, you might want to chuck out all views from
space and computer graphics.  In that case, take the view we get from
Endor when Vader comes down to fetch Luke back to the Emperor.

    (PUSH)  I swear, that landing platform is the only governmental
    parking space I have seen recently with no 'handicapped only'
    sign next to one of the spots.  Note also that like a good
    Imperial, Vader or his pilot shows callous disregard for the
    painted parking spaces and sets the shuttle down between them.
    (POP)

     The DS from Endor appears to occupy about 5 or 10 degrees of arc.
Noting that for the DS to remain over the shield generator, it must be
in Endor-stationary orbit.  I don't feel like calculating what
distance from Endor that is, and I'd probably get it wrong if I tried,
but assume that it's three diameters, like with Earth, but set the
diameter of Endor at 6000 miles again.  [Again physicists can set me
straight if they want to.]  Note that in no shot of the DS does it
appear to be any such distance from Endor.  Nonetheless, for something
18 Kmiles away to subtend 5 degrees of arc is fairly impressive:

    sin(THETA) = opposite (mi) / hypotenuse (mi)
    sin(THETA) * hypotenuse (mi) = opposite (mi)
    sin(pi/36) * 18000 (mi) = 1500 (mi)

     So I'll stick with my guess about 100 miles.  According to the
book, the new improved DS is twice the size of the old one, so that
puts the old one at about 50 miles.  If anyone can point out any data
which I've overlooked, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

                                   S. Luke Jones

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 83 17:22:39-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!rh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star Size

     It's probably silly to try and calculate the 'size' of the Death
Star because...

     Anyone who would make a movie with parsec as a unit of time is
not going to bother keeping a special effect in the same scale every
time it is show.  Just like the mother ship coming over the mountain
in CE3K.  Face it, these people just aren't bothered with details like
consistent scale.  The best you're going to do on the size of the
Death Star is "Big."

--
Randwulf
 (Randy Haskins);  Path= genrad!mit-eddie!rh
or... rh@mit-ee (via mit-mc)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 8:09:48-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxa!claus @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: THE OTHER

     I've been reading arguments on who the 'OTHER' is for the last
month and would like to ask a general question.  Have all nine parts
of the Star Wars series(three sets of trilogies) already been outlined
by George Lucas, or is he just making this up as he goes along?  If
someone else takes over the production of the next movie in the series
will this result in inconsistenties?  And, if the outline for the
entire story does exist, how difficult would it be to obtain it?  Well
I guess I asked three questions instead of one, but I am really
interested in what anyone thinks about this?

     Thanks in advance.

                                Dave Claus
                                BTL/ABI Indy

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 12:38:38-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Luke's Failure in the Cave - (nf)

     If light sabers are powered by the force, this points to Han as
the other, since he's the only non-jedi seen to use a light saber.

     Personally, I doubt it.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 9:02:25-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!rocheste!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Light Sabre and The Force

     Everybody sez that the sabre does not get its power from the
source.  They also say that can be proved by the fact that Han Solo
uses a sabre, and Luke could use it when he first picked it up.  I
thought everybody was part of the Force, it's just that some people
were more aware of it than others, and perhaps these sabres were
designed to work with anybody's "Force Field".

     Anyway, I will hold judgement on this until I see ANH (SW4)
again.  rochester!FtG says it's coming to HBO in February (If untrue,
send flames to *that* address).

     I will not claim that light sabres get their power from The Force
again until that time, so no more rebuttals, please.

     By the way, did anyone mention the beginning of ANH where Leia
makes it quite obvious she knows OB1, by sending him that message via
R2-D2?  That sure makes a strong argument that she's got a close tie
with the Jedi Knights.

                                        Jim Heliotis

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1983 1610-EST
From: John R. Covert <RSX-DEV at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Harvard Film Archieve December SF Listing

ENET-address: "Castor::Covert"
Phone: "(603) 884-8271 or DTN 264-8271"
Usenet-address: "{ucbvax,decvax}!decwrl!rhea!castor!covert"

     Carpenter Center for the Visual Arts, 24 Quincy Street, Cambridge
617 495-4700/3254

     Science Fiction at 9:30 on Fridays and Saturdays.  Admission $2

Dec 2/3 THX-1138

Dec 9/10 Solaris

Dec 16/17 Zardoz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Nov 83 1259-EST
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #121
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 27 Nov 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 121

Today's Topics:
       Administrivia - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish...,
           Books - Piers Anthony (2 msgs) & Isaac Asimov &
                 James Blish & David Brin (2 msgs) &
             Fantasia Mathematica & Jack Vance (2 msgs),
                 Query - Looking For Yet Another Book

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 83 12:42:27 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: So Long and Thanks for All the Fish...

Dear All:

     As previously announced, I am no longer going to be the moderator
of SF-Lovers, due to "political" problems in which I am losing my
account...

     However, SF-Lovers WILL LIVE!!!  I have just received
confirmation that one of our other folks at Rutgers, a long-time SFL
reader will be taking it over.

     Please be patient with him, as it may take a few days to make the
transfer smooth and complete....

     As for me--I'll be back, somehow and someday!!!  You'll be
hearing from me--or seeing me--at conventions, in the pages of various
gaming magazines, reviews typed in by other people...I'll make myself
known *somehow*!

     Future plans--well, it's time to start work on my M.A. and
J.D.--it should only take six years going part-time!  I've got a ton
of books to catch up on, I've got a ton of games to play and review,
I've got several RPG adventures which have been waiting "in the
hopper", I'm thinking of buying an Apple IIe and assorted madness, and
most importantly, I've got a new life to work on with my new wife!!!!
Liz and I have been having a lot of fun lately, and I fully intend
that we keep on doing that!!!

     So, thanks for all of your help in making this digest work.  I
hope to meet some of you someday, and I really hope to hear from you
all again!

Sincerely,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III
Ex-Moderator,
SF-Lovers Digest

153J Marina Drive
Edison, New Jersey  08817

Rutgers Council of AAUP Chapters
Building 4103, Kilmer Campus
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
New Brunswick, New Jersey  08903

(201) 932-2278

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 83 11:20:34-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Piers Anthony

     Hold on.  Your are damning Bio. of a Space Tyrant, Part one, on
the basis of what you guess Part 2-3 are going to contain?  Slow up.
The intro of the book describes the tyrant as being regarded BY MANY
as a man on par with Hitler.  The only explicit excuse offered in the
book for his behavior is in the epilogue, where the fictional author
explains that this chapter explains his ruthlessness against the
pirates.  Given the heavily stressed ignorance of the general
population to the actual behavior of the pirates, and the blackest of
black portrayal of the pirates, you disagree with the tyrants alleged
future treatment of them?  I think you are projecting your own straw
men on the novel.

     If anything, the book is to be damned for its' heavy-handedness.
It seems pretty obvious to me that we are going to see the tyrant as
an almost pure white hero, but forced (through circumstance and
disregard for personal reputation over what he knows to himself to be
right) to earn a reputation of utmost evil while doing, in fact, good.
This is certainly the way Part 1 worked out.  The plot is sort of
similar to a recent book entitled something like 'The Man who Betrayed
the Earth', except in Bio. the motivations are anything but a mystery.

     I didn't mind the book, but I grew rapidly uncomfortable with the
continuous theme of rape.  Part of this is certainly due to my
personal difficulties with this subject, but it seems as well that we
are an (unwilling) audience to Anthony's working out of this
difficulty for himself.  This is an important subject, but it seems at
times he is wallowing in it, to the service of none.

    Apologies for the flame-like nature,

            Peter Moore

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 11:01:25-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!burton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: More Piers Anthony sexism

     I have just completed Piers Anthony's "Viscous Circle", which is
altogether a fine book. However, I noticed how blatantly sexist
Anthony is in his science fiction; prior to this novel, I had only
read his Xanth novels, and so contributed his sexism to the genre in
which he was writing. Now I can no longer use this excuse. Was it just
my imagination? Was I being overly sensitive? I realize Anthony's
sexism has been discussed on the net before, but has anyone discussed
his attitudes with regards to science fiction novels? I recall such
lines in "Viscous Circle" as:

        It is the nature of the [female] sex to not give love
        away, but to always use it to gain some advantage.

     There were many instances (which I can't remember well enough to
quote) where Anthony makes statements (such as the one above) about
various characteristics of the female sex, which I felt were at least
a little, and in some cases greatly, demeaning.  Has anyone else out
there read "Viscous Circle" and gotten a similar impression?

        Doug Burton
        inuxc!burton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1983 at 15:45 EST
From: Alan L. Zeichick <ZEICHICK%MAINE.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Robots of Dawn

Address:   130 Moosehead Blvd., Bangor, ME  04401
Phone:     (207) 942-7512

     In a word - Excellent!  I fully intend to purchase it when it
comes out in paper (I NEVER buy hardbound books).  Asimov's continuing
his trend of tying his 'universe' together; one can see how the
Foundation series universe can come into being.  These also hark back
to the 'ancient' world of "I Robot".  The only ones that don't tie in
are the Lucky Starr series.  But I just had a thought (oh no, not
again) - if Aurora (the planet in "Robots of Dawn") circles the star
Sirius (the bad guys in "Lucky Starr") we've got it made...

     Isn't it funny how these past few years have come out with a rash
of good books from the old greats - Asimov's "Foundations Edge" and
"Robots of Dawn", Clarke's "2010", Herbert's "God Emperor of Dune",
and even a few from Heinlein.  Perhaps the Golden Age isn't dead yet!

-Alan

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 83 1:05:48-EST (Fri)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Black Easter - (nf)

     Your right, "Black Easter" doesn't end up with Satan becoming
God, "Day After Judgement" ends with Satan becoming God (and
complaining bitterly about it too).

     The First book in the series is "Doctor Mirabilis", followed by
"Case of Conscience".

                        Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 83 15:21:39-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdccs6!iy120 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: David Brin

     David Brin's third novel "The Practice Effect" is written and
sold to Bantam.  It should be out in a few months.  The story is
really David's first.  He wrote it while at CalTech as an undergrad.
It is an interesting book, though I personally would not put it at the
same level as "Startide Rising".  A fun book none the less.  David was
unsatisfied with my review of it, for I couldn't really tell him
exactly what I felt it was missing.  I still don't know, its just that
it seems to be missing most of the *spark* that Startide had.  It
isn't based in the same universe as Startide or Sundiver, for it has
its own *unique* set of universal principles.  I can still recommend
it.  On a scale of zero to 10, it rates as a 7.  Better then many,
lots of fun, and a good way to spend an evening...but a pretty lady
would take precedence.

     The book I am waiting for is Gorilla.  It is based in the same
world as Startide, but deals with the 'upraising' of the Gorillas.
It's not finished and he won't let me read the manuscript yet--The
Bum!

                Don Coleman

                sdccs6!iy120.UUCP
                sdccs6!iy120@nosc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 83 4:57:42-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Library! - (nf)

     I have just finished the two Brin books recently discussed on the
net (Sundiver/Startide Rising - I nth the various good things said
about the book.) One of the details that Brin put into this universe
struck me very strongly. Since I haven't seen it mentioned before, I
decided to bring it up.

     What I am talking about is the library. Brin postulates a
multi-racial galactic civilization that has, for the last 2 billion
years, been recording EVERYTHING that happened to any of the races in
the civilization. Since the average racial lifespan in this universe
appears to be under 100 million years, this means that the answer to
any question that ANYBODY is liable to ask can be found in the library
(oh, before I forget - the interface is a fairly good AI text search
program, so the things is fairly easy to use). The races in this
universe are greatly affected by the library - it's considered gauche
to actually do research; you should look in the library.

     Does this concept strike anybody else strongly? Any comments on
what life would be like with something like that around?

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 83 8:50:46-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!eagle!hou5h!hou5a!hou5d!hogpc!hogpd!jrrt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: ToC for Fantasia Mathematica

FANTASIA MATHEMATICA (edited by Clifton Fadiman):

                             ODD NUMBERS

Huxley, Aldous          Young Archimedes
Koestler, Arthur        Pythagoras and the Psychoanalyst
Llewellyn, Richard      Mother and the Decimal Point
Cabell, James Branch    Jurgen Proves It by Mathematics
Wells, H. G.            Peter Learns Arithmetic
Plato                   Socrates and the Slave
Capek, Karel            Death of Archimedes

                             IMAGINARIES

Porges, Arthur          Devil and Simon Flagg
Heinlein, Robert A.     And He Built a Crooked House
Maloney, Russell        Inflexible Logic
Gardner, Martin         No-Sided Professor
Clarke, Arthur C.       Superiority
Nearing, H., Jr.        Mathematical Voodoo
Brown, Fredric          Expedition
Breuer, Miles J.        Captured Cross-Section
Upson, William Hazlett  A. Botts and the Moebius Strip
Balchin, Nicholas       God and the Machine
Mitchell, Edward Page   Tachypomp
Gardner, Martin         Island of Five Colors
Elliott, Bruce          Last Magician
Deutsch, A. J.          Subway Named Moebius
Lasswitz, Kurt          Universal Library
Ley, Willy              Postscript to "The Universal Library"
Keeler, Harry Stephen   John Jones's Dollar

                              FRACTIONS

Quiller-Couch, Arthur   New Ballad of Sir Patrick Spens
Kornbluth, Cyril        Unfortunate Topologist
Eddington, Sir Arthur   There Once Was a Breathy Baboon...
Carroll, Lewis          Yet What Are All...
Barton, Ralph           Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star
Marvell, Andrew         Mathematical Love
Morley, Christopher     Circle
Deeker, Thomas          Circle and the Square
Millay, Edna St.Vincent Euclid Alone Has Looked on Beauty Bare
Lindsay, Vachel         Euclid
Housman, A. E.          To Think That Two and Two Are Four
Butler, Samuel          Uses of Mathematics
Sandburg, Carl          Arithmetic
Atherton, John          Threes (To Be Sung by Niels Bohr)
Rounds, Emma            Plane Geometry
Dingle, Herbert         He Thought He Saw Electrons Swift
Elliott, Bruce          Fearsome Fable
Hardy, G. H.            Bertrand Russell's Dream
Ogilvy, C. Stanley      For All Practical Purposes
Carroll, Lewis          Eternity: A Nightmare
Gamow, George           Infinity of Guests
Eddington, Sir Arthur <infinity symbol> (this is impossible on an HP!)
Whewell, William        No Power on Earth
Poe, Edgar Allan        (x + 1)
Shanks, Edward          Receptive Bosom
Schnitzler, Arthur      Leinbach's Proof
The New Yorker          Talk of the Town
Mathematical Gazette    Letter to Tennyson
Mathematical Gazette    Fable
Anonymous               There Was a Young Man from Trinity
Anonymous               There Was an Old Man Who Said "Do"
Anonymous               Relativity
Anonymous               There Was a Young Fellow Named Fisk

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 83 13:54:17-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!philabs!aecom!jsanders@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: the alastor books - (nf)

     I some-how missed the original posting, but can confirm, as a
convicted Vance fanatic that the number in the titles is the number of
the stars involved. All the stars with habitable planets in the Alator
Cluster are numbered. This is made pretty clear in "Marune.." when
they go to "Circle of Worlds" (or something like that) on Numenes. Any
other Vance lovers out there?

                                   Jeremy Sanders

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1983 12:47:14-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Vance's Alastor

   Marune:Alastor 933 is about the planet in the year 933, and
   Wyst:Alastor 1716 about the planet in the year 1716, etc. . . .
   I got this from a friend who is a Jack Vance fanatic

     This doesn't jibe with my recent recollection of the books;
perhaps your friend's fanaticism is unknowledgeable, or perhaps you
misheard him? Alastor is frequently described in the books as a
cluster of some large number of worlds "ruled" by the Connatic (sp?)
("ruled" because he rarely exercises overt power, preferring instead
to fix problems in person, semi-anonymously, e.g. in one he appeared
to be a journalist). There are also comments on the order of "on this
world hussade featured x and y, in contrast to the general practice."

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 83 22:49:44-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!smu!leff @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: book review - (nf)

     Reminds me of a book entitled 'TAMBU' on the theme of a fighter
of space pirates who was frequently misunderstood.  The presentation
is told by means of talks with a reporter whom he selected to
interview him and flashbacks.

     It was in the top ten per cent of the Sf books I have read.

     Sorry, I forget the author.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Dec 83 1749-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #122
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 2 Dec 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 122

Today's Topics:
                       Administrivia - Hi There Sailor!,
                  Books - David Brin (6 msgs) & Robert Asprin

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 83 13:24:24 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Administrivia

Hi folks,

        I am pleased to announce that I have taken over as moderator
of sf-lovers here at Rutgers.  I have been reading this digest for
about 5 years and am the author of The Twilight Zone episode guide
(with help from Lauren).  I hope to keep bringing you the same high
quality material that you are used to seeing in this digest until I
go sane.
        Unfortunately, due to problems with our ARPAnet connection,
there has been no digest since the final digest moderated by the
late great fish-filled Frederick Paul Kiesche III, Volume 8, Issue
#122, dated 27-Nov-83.

-Saul Jaffe (Jaffe@Rutgers)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 83 0:31:56-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: The Library! -- Possible Future - (nf)

The other disadvantage of "The Library" is that dependence on it can
lead to the kind of Big Brother censorship evidenced in Startide
Rising, when they keep trying to find info about the mummy they
retrieved, and they keep getting "I never heard of it."  Obviously
(as stated in the book), the progenitor-races that gave them the
thing fiddled with the circuits so it wouldn't help them too much.

As a counter-future-history, notice that the Terrans don't rely
totally on the Library -- in fact, they make a point of diverging
from known technology whenever possible, sometimes just in order to
be perverse.  The defense against such
stagnation/dependency/censorship?  --Skepticism.

Marion Hakanson         CSnet:  hakanson@oregon-state
                        UUCP :  {hp-pcd,teklabs}!orstcs!hakanson

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 19:48:39-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Library! - (nf)

Brin goes to a lot of pains pointing out the problems inherent to
such an approach to life - particularly on Kithrup, the men & fen
are always approaching problems (namely, getting out of there) in
original ways not covered in the library. Most of the thesis of
Sundiver results from the library's failure to find any experience
parallel to the beings living in the Sun. It is apparent that, while
the library is a fantastic help in getting things done, its not the
final answer, or even a particularly good answer - at least for
Earth. The only systems that failed on the Sundiver vehicle were the
ones taken, without understanding, from the library.

                                Lyle McElhaney
                                ...(hao,nbires,brl-bmd)!denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 83 23:09:21-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Library! - (nf)

Some of the characters in Startide Rising are searching for
evidence that the Library is not the unbiased fact reservoir it
claims to be, but rather is specifically tailored to the race it
has been provided to and provides answers filling some unnamed
other race's intentions for us.  The question of equal access to
information is fast becoming central to our society, so it's
interesting to see it raised in this context.

scott preece
ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 83 14:38:56-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Library! -- Possible Future History

     I, unfortunately, thought that that was a very realistic
portrayal of a physically advanced civilization.  I say
unfortunately because I expect that we will soon be to that point
ourselves.

     Here is a possible future history which illustrates what I am
talking about.  (Anyone wishing to base a story on this fh is
welcome to do so, incidently).  First, some background information:

<1>: We have 'expert knowledge' systems in physical science today.
The ones I have heard about will determine molecular structure from
x-ray diffraction patterns, and perform geological prospecting from
a data base.

<2>:  The emphasis in modern test equipment is on simple, rugged
*phyical* measurement devices with advanced mathematical
analysis by an on-board computer.  This is in contrast to
complex, delicate equipment providing direct measurements.

<3>:  We are on the threshold of a 'robotics revolution' where far
more sophisticated interactions between the items mentioned in
parts (1) and (2) will be commonplace.


Based on this information, a very possible future history is as
follows: (The number to the left represents the year I expect this
to happen by.)

2000:  Intelligent automated test equipment is commonplace in
pharmacutical (?) companies, research & development companies,
the military, and major universities.  This equipment is
used to (a) ensure quality, (b) suggest possible sources of
contamination, (c) and do basic physical measurements required
for further work.

2020: Several major intelligent probes are launched to all other
planets in the system, a number of major moons, possibly circa-
solar and interstellar space, and almost certainly the deep ocean on
earth.  These probes return not only the raw data they aquire, but
also possible theories to explain their observations; and most
importantly, if they encounter something unexpected they have the
ability to drop less important measurements, reallocate equipment,
design the experiment, perform same, and analysis the results, ALL
WITHOUT COMMANDS FROM EARTH!

As a result of these probes, nearly all physical knowledge of the
universe after the launch of these probes is due to machines,
not humans.

2050: The meta-expert systems will be developing increasingly more
general expert systems.  As a result, more interdisciplinary
experiments will be performed by computers.  Additionally, social
science 'experiments' will be commonplace using the census data as
the data base.

2070: Most of the Nobel Prizes go to computer systems.  Most
programs are written by computer.  Most program-generating programs
are generated by computers. Most ....

2100: At least one probe has been sent into a previously
inaccessible location, after being designed, built, and operated
entirely by computers, and being designed entirely on principles
discovered by computers.  Possible probes include: a stellar probe
(into the sun's outer atmosphere; a Jovian probe (into the inner
atmosphere of Jupiter); a earth probe (descending into the lower
crust/upper mantle of the earth); a interstellar probe (using high
acceleration drives, going into *deep* space).

At this point my crystal ball becomes too cloudly to be usable, but
the point I am trying to make is that even as soon as a single
century from now, it may very well be that most up-to-date knowledge
is found by machine, not human, intelligence.  After that, how long
will it be before it is considered improper for a graduate student
in a physical science to propose *actually* doing an experiment for
his thesis/dissertation?  After all, can't a computer do it faster,
cheaper, better, etc. if it has not already been done?

Then in a 'mere' millenia, we will have a culture which can approach
that in *Startide Rising*. What would it be like after 7.5 billion
years, and thou- sands of sentient species have come and gone?

Cravet(?):

I personally would want to continue duplicating experiments from now
until the big crunch.  This would change portions of the above
culture, in that it would be acceptable to suggest you measure
'c' for the 241,642,998,235,243rd time in recorded history, *so long
as* a computer system does the actual work.  This is in contrast to
the culture in *SR* where it is not acceptable to perform the
experiment at all, but rather the value must be taken blindly from
the *Library*.

Any counter future histories?

                    ave discordia
                    -------------
                    Bruce Giles
                    decvax!ucf-cs!giles (UUCP)
                    UCF, Dept of Math, Orlando Fl 32816 (Snail)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 83 0:23:24-EST (Sat)
From: ihnp4!ihuxr!lew @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Solar physics in "Sundiver"

I finished reading Sundiver over the weekend and I have a few bones
to pick with Brin's solar physics. First, he depicts the
chromosphere as being rather more substantial than it is. He has the
ship being buffeted by turbulence and being obscured by filaments.
Actually, the chromosphere has a density of less than 1e-6 g/cm3 -
laboratory vacuum level.

Second, he depicts the spicules as being a feature of the
photoshpere.  They actually rise above the chromosphere and have a
length scale equal to the thickness of the chromosphere, about
10,000 km. He has the people (and others) in the ship looking down
on them as though they were looking at an earth based photo of the
sun.. Even if you displace a spicule so that its base was in the
photoshpere, the ship's entire field of view would be encompassed by
that single spicule.

I thought these were pretty basic misconceptions to be perpetrated
by someone with a Ph.D. in Astrophysics. I don't think it's
necessarily true that Brin holds these misconceptions himself, but
I'm hard put to make up excuses for him. I'm no authority myself,
mind you, but all you have to do is look this stuff up and keep your
length scales in mind. I happen to have a copy of "The New Sun", a
NASA publication summarizing the solar findings of Skylab.

I also have a problem with his "refrigerator laser", although I'm
more inclined to grant poetic license here (I'm not sure Brin
applied for one, though) Anyway, as Brin notes in the book, the
laser has an extremely high effective temperature. This begs the
question of how to pump heat out of the ship, since you have to
raise its temperature (schematically speaking) to that of the laser.
This is just as hard as pumping to the solar atmosphere.

I posted a comment a while ago comparing the sundiver refrigeration
to the "gas refrigerator" based on an absorption cycle. On
reflection I think the laser is incompatible with this scheme. It is
effectively an "entropyless" sink. That is, running it is equivalent
to doing work.  As I said, using it to "dump heat" begs the question
of how to drive the laser.

As far as the story goes, I thought it was a typical SF potboiler,
even if the plot machinations were intriguing enough to hold my
interest.  I thought the solarians were a little silly. Brin's
pastoral metaphor was rather uninspired. They could have been fun,
though, but he never went anywhere with them. Maybe in "Startide
Rising" ... ?

Incidentally, for some reason, I couldn't help picturing Culla as
Admiral Ackbar (the reddish brown bug-eyed guy with the white
uniform) in ROTJ.

Ok, Sundiver fans, tune up those x-ray flame lasers. I'm ready!

                Lew Mammel, Jr. ihnp4!ihuxr!lew

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Nov 83 15:17:03 EST
From: Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) <wmartin@brl-bmd>
Subject: Brin's new book GORILLA

Regarding Don Coleman's message in SFL mentioning that David Brin is
working on a new book to be called GORILLA:

I look forward to reading it, as I enjoyed both STARTIDE RISING and
SUNDIVER, and this message is in no way a criticism of Mr. Brin.
However, as soon as a read the reference to GORILLA, I was somewhat
irked, as I knew there already was a novel (not SF) called GORILLA,
since it was on a bookshelf at home! It is by Colin Willock,
copyright 1977, published by St. Martin's Press, New York, and the
ISBN code is 0-312-34035-4.

I just looked in the 1983-84 BOOKS IN PRINT, and two other books
with the title "GORILLA" are listed. Both of these seem to be
non-fiction: one by Anthony Browne is a short children's book, and
the other, by Paula Z. Hogan, is an elementary school textbook (if I
interpreted the BIP codes correctly).

Now, I can understand the same title being used for very different
books, or for very similar textbooks [there probably have been 300
different texts with the title AMERICAN HISTORY], but for fiction,
once a title has been used, it should never be used again. I suppose
that there is no copyright on titles themselves, but we have seen
some acknowledgement by one author of another's "right" to a title
used in the past, as in Varley's postscript in MILLENNIUM referring
to Ben Bova's use of the title previously. [I believe there was an
explanation of this a long while back in SFL, to the effect that the
movie people who bought the original short story to revamp into
MILLENNIUM insisted on the title change.]

I would think that an author's pride would be enough to keep him/her
from re-using a previously-used title. Of course, there is no reason
why Mr. Brin would have known of this 1977 use of GORILLA as a
title, if it was dropped from BOOKS IN PRINT before he decided to
write the book -- I wouldn't expect an author to check this out
through all the past issues of BIP (or is there some reference for
BOOKS ONCE PRINTED that lists everything from some year on back?)
but I would expect a publisher to check this before finalizing on
the title choice.

Is there any legal issue involved here, or is it just a matter of
courtesy?

Will Martin (WMartin at Office-3)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 83 21:24:54-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!ulysses!princeton!hector @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: book review - (nf)

The book TAMBU is by Robert Asprin.  Asprin also is the editor of
the four 'Sanctuary' anthologies, author of a novel 'The Bug Wars',
and a very funny novel called 'Another Fine Myth' (s-fantasy), which
has a sequel 'Mythconceptions' that I've tried unsuccessfully to
locate a copy of.

Asprin also happens to be the commander of the Dorsai Irregulars,
a.k.a.  the Klingon Diplomatic Corps.  This, to the uninitiated, is
an amateur military clan which has been known to provide security at
conventions.  For a great introduction to their antics, try to find
Phil Foglio's convention report cartoons, reprinted in paperback in
'Startoons', ed.  Joan Winston, by Playboy Press.

                        Stewart Wiener
                        {harpo, allegra}!princeton!flakey!stewart

[Moderator's note:
        Thanks also to Bruce {rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel.umcp-cs@CSNet-Relay (Arpanet) and Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue]
<quint@RU-GREEN> for the same information ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Dec 83 0048-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #123
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 3 Dec 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 123

Today's Topics:
Re: Robots of Dawn
Anthony's XANTH - (nf)
Re: The Library! -- vs. Democracy
Guerilla
RE: Black Easter
Women's Lit - slight spoiler
Re: Mindkiller (*mild spoiler*) - (nf)
Stableford series identified
re: Joe and the brain symbiot
Vance lover
short story review
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 83 2:51:57-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn

I thought that "Robots of Dawn" was one of the most simplistic,
unbelievable books that I have read in a long time.

Sure, Asimov ties all his other plot lines together; but the
world-view he shows seems extremely unlikely to me.  It requires
that ALL humans become rule-following, regulation bound
non-thinkers.  Even one anarchist or power grabbing group would send
his whole culture tumbling.

Alice Bentley
...seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 83 14:02:57-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!whuxle!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Anthony's XANTH - (nf)

This may have been discussed already (what hasn't), but since I just
starting reading them, what does everyone out there think of Piers
Anthony's XANTH series??

                                eric holtman

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 83 13:31:25-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Library! -- vs. Democracy

An interesting point not brought up in Startide Rising is what
happens if the Library is put to use in Government?  Specifically
*AS* the Government.

After all, if you are a member of a culture which has relied on a
Library during your entire life, your parents' life, your
grandparents' life, .... and has always been proved correct in the
end, would you trust your future to it?  I think most people would.
BUT, in this case assume a malfunction which causes it to state
something totally improbable, like the second son of parents with
blue eyes and brown hair is always a murderer.  How could safety
checks be built into the system, when almost inevitably the
information the controllers use must be supplied by that which is
controlled?  Especially consider the case when the saftey check is a
pure democracy, with an average of junior-college education, but the
theory involved is near the doctorial level.

Unfortunately, this is not an academic problem.

In Orlando, Florida, a power company wants to build a coal-powered
electric plant approx. 5 miles south of UCF.  There is considerable
opposition, from both long-term residents and relative newcomers
from the acid-rained North.  However, the power company claims that
something like 1 BILLION DOLLARS will be saved by using this plant,
instead of a gas, oil, or nuclear plant.  The case has been in court
several times, and the last time the judge decided for the power
company citing the future energy use analysis by the power company
as the main reason.  (I think the intent of the ruling included
"Read the company's report" directed at the Sierra Club).


With this problem over a power plant, imagine the furor if a Library
stated it was in the interests of the public if retirement age was
raised to 110 (out of 130 years max, 115 mean), mandatory public
service was required from the ages of 18 to 32, etc....

hail eris
ave discordia (I finally remembered the other)
Bruce Giles

UUCP:           decvax!ucf-cs!giles
cs-net:         giles@ucf
ARPA:           giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay
Snail:          University of Central Florida
                Dept of Math, POB 26000
                Orlando Fl 32816

------------------------------

Date: 3 DEC 1983 0141 EST
From: METZ at MIT-ML
Subject: Guerilla

A friend of mine, who is reading over my shoulder, begs me to enter
this comment on Guerilla (or something like it):

First, as the gentleman suspected, there is (IS) no (NO) copyright
on titles..

Second, why should an author be forced to insure that NO other book
has the same title, when the content of the books is dissimilar?
The simplest way to tell the difference is by the author.

Few people who were looking for Ben Bova's Millenium were likely to
have purchased John Varley's Millenium, since if they were looking
for either of these books, they were probably capable of reading the
name of the author.

;Paranthetically, on a very brain damaged terminal (pleez to forgive
misspellings) H. S. Metz

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 83 1:20:40-EST (Tue)
From: decvax!tektronix!stever @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RE: Black Easter

As quoted from an afterword by David G. Hartwell in Blish's THE DAY
JUDGMENT:

     "Although the DAY AFTER JUDGMENT can be read as an indepen-
     dent book, it is essence the climax of a two-volume novel
     (the first volume is BLACK EASTER, in which the major
     characters are introduced and the stage is set for the events
     in this book.)  The two volumes comprise the middle section
     of a three-part work which considers the same theme in the
     past, present and future settings."

     "...The "After Such Knowledge" trilogy consists of DOCTOR
     MIRABILIS (1965, revised 1971), a historical novel concerning
     the life of the medieval scientist/theologian [Roger Bacon];
     BLACK EASTER and the THE DAY AFTER JUDGMENT (originally l968,
     1971), a fantasy work set in contemporary times about the
     end of the world brought about through black magic;  A CASE
     OF CONSCIENCE (1958), a science fiction novel concerning
     the discovery of an alien race without original sin.  Blish
     states that it was only after the completion of BLACK EASTER
     that he became conscious of the works as a trilogy:

        ""I realized that I had now written three novels,
        widely separated in times of composition and even
        more in ostensible subject-matter, each one of which
        was a dramatization in its own terms of one of the
        oldest problems of philosophy:

              IS THE DESIRE FOR SECULAR KNOWLEDGE, LET ALONE
              THE ACQUISITION AND USE OF IT, A MISUSE OF THE
              MIND, AND PERHAPS EVEN ACTIVELY EVIL?

I found all three works to be extremely interesting.  DOCTOR
MIRABILIS is heavy reading, but brought great satisfaction.
The two volumes of the middle of the trilogy were easy
reading, but raised interesting points and I think an original
situation.   CASE OF CONSCIENCE is interesting to me in the
presentation of its example of alien thought.  To me "doctor"
and "case" are worth rereading many times.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 83 9:52:36-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxg!burton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Women's Lit - slight spoiler

I have just completed reading "Benefits" by Zoe Fairbains, which was
recommended to me by the proprietor of a "feminist family"
bookstore. Anyway, the story takes place in England in the near
future, where society and government have blamed the feminist
movement for all the problems of the day. A new movement, called the
Family Movement, gains control, and uses a program of Benefits (paid
to mothers who stay home with their children) to keep women in their
place. The program soon becomes a means for encouraging only the
"right kinds" of people to have families, as England tries to join
in the new Europa economic community with the one resource it has to
offer - cheap labor.

Zoe Fairbains writes well about people, and I was not turned off by
any hard line feminist propaganda. She has a lot to say about both
sides of the battle over equal rights for women; she criticizes the
feminists as well as the "chauvinists".  One point to be made: you
might have to go to a "feminist bookstore" to find this one; I don't
believe I've ever seen it in the mainstream bookstores (of course, I
don't usually look in the section on Sex and Family, just the
Literature and Science Fiction). This book would definitely fall
under the SF category (for Speculative Fiction -- if Harlan Ellison
is in the Science Fiction section, then Zoe Fairbains should be
too).


                        Doug Burton
                        ATT-CP Indianapolis
                        inuxg!burton

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 83 0:30:39-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!nathan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Mindkiller (*mild spoiler*) - (nf)

Re: Mindkiller & Spider Robinson

For those who haven't read the book, what's his name is right;
the book is superb right up to, but not including, the ending.

This is not unusual for Mr. Robinson, and is an example of a very
pleasing trend: When I first discovered Mr. R, he clearly understood
in detail the dynamics of short stories.  Simply, he wrote excellent
short stories.  (Witness "Overdose") His novelettes, however, read
like more like long short stories than short novels.

Now, Spider's novelettes are undeniably excellent.  He clearly has
mastered the subtleties of the longer work.  Extending a novelette
to novel length didn't work so well, but that is to be expected.

I can't wait to see Spider's new novel two or three years from now;
Wow!  Don't be surprised if he bumps Stephen King (or Jane Fonda,
snicker) off the bestseller list.  At the rate he's learning, I
promise he'll be a god (with Heinlein, Zelazny, Ellison, Bradbury,
et al) before the decade's out.

                Just my opinion,
                Nathan C. Myers

------------------------------

Date: Mon 28 Nov 83 01:44:33-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Stableford series identified

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ In answer to `dbell'... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The stories (not trilogy) about "Joe" with the mental symbiote are
Brian Stableford's "Star Pilot Grainger" series of 6 novels FROM DAW:
   THE HALCYON DRIFT  1972
   RHAPSODY IN BLACK  1973
   PROMISED LAND      1973
   THE PARADISE GAME  1974
   THE FENRIS DEVICE  1974
   SWAN SONG          1975

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1983 15:24:12-EST
From: csin!gfh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: re: Joe and the brain symbiot

The stories you are looking for are by Brian Stapleford.  There are
6 novels all put out by DAW.  In chronological (from the characters
point of view) they are The Halcyon Drift, Rapsody in Black, The
Paradise Syndrome, (title forgotten since they are not in front of
me at this time; this one may come before the Paradise Syndrome),
The Fenris Device, and Swan Song.  The name of the character is
Granger and he is pilot, but not captain of an experimental space
ship called the Hooded Swan.  The stories are fairly well written
and show the definite progression of Grainger coming to terms with
his "parasite".  I recommend them to everyone who has not read them.
They are the best books that Stableford has written of a not
inconsiderable few. (I do not think any of his other books are worth
reading- though I have read all that I can find once.  The Grainger
stories I have reread several times.)

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 27 Nov 1983 13:07-PST
Subject: Vance lover
From: obrien@rand-unix

        In response to a question...yes, here's another Vance
lover.  But then, I like most authors who have real command of
the language (any Jane Austen fans out there?).  In fact I'm
partway through "Cugel's Saga", which is fresh out, and
represents the third entry in his "Dying Earth" milieu.  It's
been, what? twenty years since "The Eyes of the Overworld"?

        Unfortunately, I don't find "Cugel's Saga" as enthralling
as the first two books, and in fact it's pretty inferior Vance.
It certainly IS Vance, which makes it much better than most of
the other stuff currently being published, but there's a certain
sense of depth missing, and things are just too predictable.
I'm glad to own it, but I could have wished for better.
"Lyonesse" was far better.

        On other fantasy fronts, David Eddings' "Belgariad"
series is shaping up nicely, and I can't resist another plug for
Gene Wolfe's "The Book of the New Sun".  Certainly any lovers of
fine writing and language should check this one out.

        And, lest we forget, Austen's "Pride and Prejudice",
while not strictly fantasy, describes an awfully strange world,
has fine writing, and can still put me on the floor laughing,
some 165 years after its first publication.  The author was cute,
too.

                                        Mike O'Brien

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 10:49:51-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houxn!dossamg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: short story review

                      Behind The Glory Of The Heroes
                                    by
                             Joseph McCarthy

                           Review by Alan Gopin

       Behind The Glory Of The Heroes by Joseph McCarthy is  a  new
       piece  of  Star Trek Fiction.  Big deal, you say.  Well this
       time maybe it is.

       The plot revolves around a Romulan attack  on  a  Federation
       Base  Station and is based on a scenario from the Star Fleet
       Battles game.  To quote from the  story:  "Service  in  Star
       Fleet is two years of boredom and an hour of stark screaming
       terror." Needless to say, the story is about the second half
       of that quote.

       This short story stands out  for  several  reasons.   First,
       although  it is set in the Star Trek universe (all right, so
       it is really set in the Star Fleet universe, the  difference
       is  trivial),  none  of the "regulars" appear.  This lets it
       stand on its own merit as  a  story.   It  doesn't  lean  on
       established characters.

       Second, it gives  a  very  different  viewpoint.   The  main
       character is a lowly sensor tech.  We get to see things from
       down in the trenches for a change, and it is an  interesting
       change.

       Third,  and  most  important,  this  story   evokes   strong
       emotional  response  from the reader.  Character development
       is  strong  for  a  story  of  this  length,  and  the  main
       character's  reactions  to  the  events unfolding around her
       really put the reader in the story.  The author succeeded in
       making me care about what happens to the characters.

       Behind The Glory Of The Heroes appears in NEXUS #6.  Read it
       if you get the chance.  On the Leeper Scale, I rate it a +2.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Dec 83 1210-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #124
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Dec 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 124

Today's Topics:
                   Television - Dr. Who (9 msgs),
                   Music - Filk songs & David Bowie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 November 1983 18:00 cst
From: RLee at HI-MULTICS (Randy C. Lee)
Subject: The Five Doctors

I was surprised at Tom Baker's minimal role in "The Five Doctors".
Has anyone heard any rumors as to why?

Other than that, I enjoyed the show.  It was my first time to see
Peter Davidson and he seems quite good as the Doctor.  I look
forward to more stories with him, although I suspect it will be
awhile.  The Minneapolis/St. Paul station is currently showing the
episodes with Leela as the Doctor's companion.  My newly purchased
program guide reveals that there are a couple of more seasons of Tom
Baker left (not that this is any hardship).

--Randy Lee (RLee@HI-Multics.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 83 22:43:46-PST (Sat)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!emjej @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: 20th anniversary Doctor consistency? - (nf)

Re the twentieth anniversary *Doctor Who* show, some questions:

Was I not looking closely, or did Sarah Jane seem rather too
familiar with K-9 at the beginning? After all, K-9 is of
Leela/Romana vintage.

How did the Brigadier get to know Tegan? (When the Doctors and their
companions meet in the Tomb of Ras[aeiou]*n[aeiou]*n (sp?), he
exclaims, "Miss <whatever Tegan's last name is>!")

                                        James Jones

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 83 13:58:01-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: K-9 in the 5 doctors

        About the appearance of K-9 with Sarah Jane Smith at the
beginning of the Five Doctors.
        If you'll notice, when they showed scenes of Romana and Tom
Baker's Doctor in Venice (?) K-9 was not with them.  It seems
reasonable to suggest that Romana and the Doctor visited Sarah,
dropped off K-9 for a while and then went off touring.

        Although, I was not listening too carefully during the scene
in the tomb of Rassalon (sp?), I got the impression that the
Brigadier recognized Sarah, but not Tegen.  Not too sure about that,
though.

                         Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP: {decvax,ucbvax,inuxc,harpo,uiucdc}!pur-ee!Physics:dub
ARPA: dub @pur-phy.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 83 15:03:13-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ih1ap!jgd @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: Picky picky picky

I think your confusing Sarah with Leela.  Sarah was never associated
with K-9 in the Dr. Who series.  However Leela was the first
companion to meet and become very attached to the K-9 which the Dr.
and Leela met in "The Swarm" episode.  The first K-9 was constructed
by a Dr. Marious who was from earth and stationed on a hospital
space station.  He developed his computer/robot/technical aid "K-9"
because weight restrictions prevented him from transporting a real
dog from earth to the station.  The technical nature allowed him use
k-9 instead of a real dog.

                                             Jerry Donovan
                                             AT&T Western Electric
                                             ih1ap!jgd

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 83 16:42:33-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re:Doctor's 20th anniversary

Heard from the gallery is a resounding NO!

The k-9 robot was given originally to the Doctor by a xenobiologist
in the episode of which I don't remember the name, but the key
phrase was "Contact has been Made" and there was an alien hive mind
that first took over an asteroid mining site and then a hospital.
And this episode is after Sarah Jane Smith had left the show and
Leela was the companion.

k-9 mark I was given to Leela when she left the Doctor after the
show "Invasion of Time".  She was on Gallifrey, no ifs, ands, or
buts.

k-9 Mark II was therefore uncrated, and went with the Doctor and
Romana throughout the Keys of Time season, and left with Romana when
the Doctor and Romana parted company after escaping from E-space in
the silly episode with the lion men and the pirates.  (The Gate of
Time or something like that was the title.)

In both cases k-9 was given to a special companion at the end of
their travellings with the Doctor.  While Sarah Jane is definitely a
special companion, she was before k-9, and never received one.

To the side:  later companions such as Adric and Tegan only deserved
what they ended up getting.

                               Walt Pesch
               Specialist in Removal of Oral Insertions of Feet
                          AT&T Western Electric
                          ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 6:49:48-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Doctor Who questions

I didn't get to see the Doctor Who Anniversary special, it wasn't
shown in the Baltimore/Washington area in spite of pleas to the PBS
stations.  I can answer several of the background questions that
have been raised here, however.

>From Dwight Bartholomew and James Jones:
        About the appearance of K-9 with Sarah Jane Smith
        at the beginning of the Five Doctors.
        If you'll notice, when they showed scenes of Romana
        and Tom Baker's Doctor in Venice (?) K-9 was not
        with them.  It seems reasonable to suggest that Romana
        and the Doctor visited Sarah, dropped off K-9 for a while
        and then went off touring.
Not quite, there was a Christmas special made several years ago
about the Doctor sending one version of K-9 to Sarah as a present.
It was planned as a spin-off series called "K-9 and Company".

>From James Jones:
        How did the Brigadier get to know Tegan?
In the episode Mawdryn Undead, when the Brigadier first meets
Peter Davison's Doctor, he also meets the Doctor's companions at
the time, Nyssa and Tegan.

>From Randy C. Lee:
        I was surprised at Tom Baker's minimal role in "The Five
        Doctors".  Has anyone heard any rumors as to why?

 It was announced at the start of production that Tom Baker would
not be available to make the special.  The footage used of Baker's
Doctor and Romana was from the unfinished serial Shada.  Only 4 of
the 6 parts of this serial had been completed when a strike shut
down production, at the end of the 17th(?) season.

                Mary Anne Espenshade
                ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae
.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 83 8:51:23-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihldt!tmh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re:Doctor's 20th anniversary

If you will remember when Tom Baker drops off Sarah he gives her K-9
mark I.  It is K-9 mark II or III that is of the Romana vintage.  I
specifically remember this, becasuse I watched the later
Baker/Romana shows first and wondered how he managed to get K-9
back.  At the begining of the first post Sarah show he opens a large
box with a second K-9 inside.  Also in the twentieth anniversary show
the Doctor and Romana are on an English canal (near a university
Oxford? or Cambridge?) not in Venice.

                                        Picky picky picky,
                                        Tom Harris

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 83 9:58:56-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ih1ap!jgd @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re:  20th anniversary Doctor consistency?

  >Was I not looking closely, or did Sarah Jane seem rather too
   familiar with k-9 at the beginning?  After all, k-9 is of
   Leela/Romana vintage.

Correct.  In the Dr. Who series Sarah Jane Smith did not appear with
k-9 in any episodes.  However the BBC did air a special program
called "k-9 and friends" or something like that, in which Sarah,
while visiting her aunt finds a crate in her aunts attic which
contains a k-9 Model III.  Along with a note of explanation from the
Dr.  It was a gift to Sarah.  If you recall the first episode that
Sarah was in with Jon Pertwee she is pretending to be a scientific
researcher so that she (a journalist) can sneak into the UNIT
project.  This aunt she was impersonating is the same aunt who's
home in which she discovers k-9.  Darn, I wish I could remember her
name.  The special program was intended to be k-9's own series but
it would have been too hard and expensive to produce with a robot as
the main character.  So since it was documented in that special that
Sarah was familiar with k-9, I would guess that is why it was used
in the five doctors.

PS: I saw the special and got the other information from Elizabith
Straton in person at a Dr. Who convention at the Granada theatre in
Chicago last August.

                                       Jerry Donovan
                                       AT&T Western Electric
                                       ih1ap!jgd

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 83 10:31:09-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!daemon @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Five Doctors ( **POSSIBLE SPOILER** )

From: Ed Featherston  HL01-1/P06  225-5241 <roll::featherston>

I Just saw "The Five Doctors" episode of Dr. Who. Definitely
interesting seeing the many "Doctors" working with each other. I
have a couple of questions though:

1. Does anyone know why we see so little of Tom Baker in this ( he
is there for a small sequence in the beginning, and again at the end)?
It also seems that those sequences could have been clips from other
episodes. Anyone heard anything about this?

2. I think there is a discrepancy concerning Sarah Jane. They show
her leaving her home, and she has K9 with her. If I remember
correctly, the first K9 ( K9 Mark 1 ) stayed with Leela on Gallifrey
(sic?), and K9 Mark 2 remained in E-Space with Romana. If this is
so, where did this K9 come from? Any guesses?

                                        /ed featherston/

                EMail : ...decvax!decwrl!rhea!roll!featherston

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 83 14:35:06-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Filking (any SF fans there?)

     As many of you may know, there are a lot of Filksongs out on
various Sci-Fi/Fantasy subjects (A Filk is a song with lyrics
applied to some aspect/subject of Fandom).  This is basically a
request for any information about obtaining copies of Favorite Filks
from anyone on the net.  Anyone with such information please send me
mail, or perhaps a copy of your favorite filk!  One of mine, to the
tune of Greensleeves, is:

        What song is this which once sung sweet
        Is now destroyed by SF freaks?
        The words once spoke of how lovers meet
        But now of strange worlds it speaks.

        Long worked I on lyrics light
        Words to last through the ages.
        Now, Hear, it is sung all night
        with words running on for five pages.

                        -Thomas R. Pellitieri
                         a.k.a. The Parker Hobbit
uucp: {rocks34!rocksvax}
      {{allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax}!sunybcs!hobbit
CSnet: hobbit.buffalo-cs@RAND-RELAY

P.S. Does this group really exist?  We never get anything from it
here in Buffalo, NY.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 22:41:06-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!decwrl!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Major Tom

David Bowie's "Major Tom" (actually "Space Oddity") was made long
long before "The Man Who Fell To Earth" and has nothing to do with
it.

The current song "Major Tom" appears to be at the least a plagiarism
of the idea of "Space Oddity" .  Although the words and music are
different, the theme is identical and there are striking
similarities in the orchestration.

  -- >From the Tardis of Mark Callow
msc@qubix.UUCP, decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Dec 83 1230-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #125
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Dec 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 125

Today's Topics:
                  Television - Dr. Who (10 msgs),
                  Film - The Psychology and Politics of 50's Films,
                  SF clubs - The Oldest College Science Fiction Club

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 6:50:55-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: A Doctor Who RUMOR (possibly spoiler)

A friend of mine received the latest issue of the Doctor Who SIG of
Mensa newsletter over the weekend and has asked me to pass on a
rumor in hopes that someone out there will have heard what is really
going on.

Rumor follows: Colin Baker was announced some time ago as the next
actor to take over the role of the Doctor.  Apparently a serial with
him has been filmed but the powers that be at the BBC decided they
don't like him in the role.  The regeneration will be unstable (even
more so than the regeneration from Tom Baker to Peter Davison that
took the whole serial Castrovalva) and Colin Baker will be
immediately out of the role.  While they are finding someone else
for the part, Jon Pertwee will be back!  End Rumor.

I can think of plausable explanations for the unstable regeneration,
especially since this kind of thing was set up in Castrovalva and
the TARDIS no longer has the Zero room to help the Doctor recover.
Most importantly, does this count as one or two regenerations?  But
how are they going to explain Pertwee's return?  I find that part of
the rumor the most unbelievable.

                Mary Anne Espenshade
                ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 83 22:35:53-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 20th anniversary Doctor consistency? - (nf)

Since I'm not *really* a Who fan, don't expect too much detail, but
for how the Brigadier knew Teegan, there was an episode with Peter
Davidson where they were going to Heathrow, and somehow ended up on
some far away planet.  Anyway, if you remember that episode, that's
where he met Teegan, and if you didn't see it, then you wouldn't
know they had met.

                                        Mary

I also remember something along the lines that the airport wasn't
there, so you couldn't think about it (everyone on the 'far away
planet' saw Heathrow) and you wouldn't see the airport.  Didn't see
all the parts, and I don't know the name, but I'm sure someone will
fill in the blanks.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 28 Nov 83 09:03:39-CST
From: Daniel Bonevac <Cgs.Bonevac@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: C.H.B.M.

These initials, "C.H.B.M.", presumably stand for "Contact Has Been
Made".  The episode is indeed "The Invisible Enemy", and is the
first in which K9 appears.  The "nucleus", which looks like a
shrimp, takes control of a ship headed for Titan and the Tardis; it
attempts to use the Doctor as a host for breeding the "swarm".  The
nucleus uses some sort of energy transmitted through the optic nerve
to gain control of people.  Whenever this happens successfully, the
person controlled responds, "Contact has been made."  I don't think
the initials themselves are used on the show.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1983 21:58:32-EST
From: Edward.Tecot@CMU-CS-H
Subject: Dr. Who (belated)

        I got home for T-Day at 11:00 Wednesday, fully expecting to
see yet another wonderful episode of Dr. Who, and when I turn on
Channel 12, what do I find, but NO Dr. Who!  Not to mention, I was
peeved!  I opened up the TV Guide to see what was amiss, and what do
I find, but that the 20th anniversary episode that I had been
ranting and raving about had just been shown only 3 hours earlier!
If only I had known...  Has anyone actually seen any of the Colin
Baker episodes?  I am curious as to their quality/content.

                                                _emt

------------------------------

Date: Thu 1 Dec 83 00:42:25-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Dr Who

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WHO's Susan ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oldtimers on the net may recall My Friend The Ultimate Star Wars Fan
whose devotion was so great that she periodically dashed off to
England to gather local goodies and/or visit her inside contacts.
For instance, she was the source of the message I posted in SF-L
some time before the release of TESB, to the effect that there was a
significant scene in it where Vader "physically picked something up
and threw it".  (Well, you wouldn't really have wanted me to let the
cat out of the bag about his killing the Emperor....)

Anyhow, MFTUSWF has gone on to what she considers better things, and
is now MFTUDWF, a devout "WHOver".  So when the recent discussion of
the problematic relationship between the Dr and Susan was tossed
about, I inquired of my expert.  The notes I scribbled down may be a
bit jumbled (\I/ am no WHOver, and even on weekends long distance
rates within Texas are not miniscule, and my penmanship is vile).
But here is the gist of what I gleaned.

In a recent (#20) issue of (the British?) RADIO TIMES is a short
story relating to that period, by Eric Saward, one of the major
writers of the series, so presumably about as reliable as anything
not filmed.

"Susan" was really the Lady Larn, a direct descendant of the
original Time Lord, Rassilon.  During a revolutionary uprising she
fled and stowed away on the Tardis.  The Dr, in a somewhat
amnesic/confused state at the time, just accepted her as his
granddaughter.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 17:04:01-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!duke!nlt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: How did the Brigadier know Tegan?

  The Brigadier meets Tegan for the first time in "Mawdryn Undead",
one of the episodes in Davison's second season.

                                         N. Tinkham
                                         duke!nlt

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 12:07:58-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Where was Tom Baker

I was at one of the Doctor Who conventions this summer and Tom Baker
was there.  He detailed there (in a snooty manner that left me very
disillusioned in him as a person) that he refused to be in "The Five
Doctors".  When BBC first asked him to do the show, he said he
wanted more profit.  They gave it to him, and then he wanted even
more.  They were going to give him whatever he wanted, told him to
write his own contract, and he said in a fit of pique that he wasn't
going to do it at all, that they were making it too easy.  Doesn't
that sound like Hollywood has affected the British?  So he did not
appear in "The Five Doctors".  (And my opinion of Tom Baker has
dropped immensely seeing that he as a person doesn't seem to believe
in the personality that made his portrayal of the Doctor so good.)

So, back in 1979 the stage crew union did what all union people do,
they went on strike, and stayed out for quite a while.  The rest of
the filming for that season was shortened, and the filming for the
episode in progress was canceled.  Therefore, we have part of a
Doctor Who with Romana as the skimpy blond with scraggly hair that
has never been seen.  And that was used as the base of the Five
Doctors.  Tom Baker that we see in "The Five Doctors" was filmed
four years ago.

By the way, Tom Baker married the skimpy Romana.  At the convention,
he said that the marriage lasted about three months, and then broke
up.  Psychoanalysing, could it be the disastrous marriage that
turned him off to the point where he will refuse to associate with
Doctor Who?  He also stated that he does not have even a single
souvenir of remembrance of his days as the Doctor.

                                  Walt Pesch
                 Specialist in Removal of Oral Insertions of Feet
                            AT&T Western Electric
                             ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 22:45:45-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!dartvax!johnc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Where was Tom Baker

  Since Tom Baker acted as he did, does this mean the great doctor
will not associate at all in any Dr. Who events?  Will anyone see
him at any other conventions?  From what I saw on the special, he
looked very pleased at the reception he got at the convention.
Please send remarks to the net.
                                An Avid Dr. Fan
                                johnc

p.s. Does anyone know when the 5th doctor series will be
showing in the US?

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 83 17:08:58-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!decwrl!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 20th anniversary Doctor consistency? -Tegan

Tegan and the Brigadier met on one of the most recent Peter Davison
series.  I have forgotten the name of the adventure but it was the
one where they acquired Turlough and it was just before "Terminus",
the adventure where Nyssa decides to stay behind. (sob!)

  -- >From the Tardis of Mark Callow msc@qubix.UUCP,
decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 22:35:43-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!decwrl!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re:  20th anniversary Doctor consistency?

>PS:  I saw the special and got the other information from Elizabith
>Straton in person at a Dr. Who convention at the Granada theatre in
>Chicago last August.

I think you mean Elisabeth Sladen.

>From the Tardis of Mark Callow
msc@qubix.UUCP,  decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 83 12:32:53-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!jay @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: 50's Sci-Fi film article

A word to all 50's sci-fi film fanatics (and everybody else):

There is a wonderful article in this month's (December) issue of
American Film magazine which explores the psychology and politics of
50's films.  A book by Peter Biskind has been excerpted in an
article entitled "War of the Worlds".  In it, Biskind points out
various recurring representations of good and evil in this
ponderously conservative era.  Mainstream Americans are besieged by
difficult decisions: whether to side with politicians, with cops on
the beat, with local generals, or with (sometimes mad) scientists,
ever in the face of alien onslaughts or our own terrestrial-based
invaders.  Films such as "Them!", "Forbidden Planet", "The Thing"
and "The Day the Earth Stood Still" are the prime focus of the
article although it cites several less than mainstream films
("Unknown World" and "The Twonky", for example -- at least they are
not mainstream in my estimation) which also reflect conflicts
between individuals and the community (yes, in this vein there is a
section on the original "Invasion of the Body Snatchers") Although
it helps a bit to have seen the major films of this genre, the
article is less about the films themselves than about what they can
tell us about our recent past.  This article (as is the magazine, in
general) is highly recommended.

-- Jay Elvove ..!seismo!umcp-cs!jay

------------------------------

Date: Wed 30 Nov 83 23:22:46-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: SF clubs

I'm presently Vice (not Vice President, just Vice) of the oldest
college science fiction club in existence, the MIT Science Fiction
Society (MITSFS -- pronounced Mitts-fiss, *not* Misfits), founded
1949.

We don't have too many activities.  We did, in the dim and distant
past, have a project to microfilm Astounding, but that died.  We
used to run movies as a fund raiser, but had to give it up when
another group got a monopoly on showing movies on campus for which
admission was charged.  Our main activity now is running our
Library, of which we are justifiably proud -- it contains over
30,000 items, including the complete works of everybody, almost
every sf and fantasy magazine ever published in the English
language, and lots of miscellaneous stuff, including a small sf porn
collection.

We have over 450 members (making us the largest student organization
on campus), but most of those just read our books.  Only about 30-40
are in any way active.  We run the Library with volunteers, who get
a key in exchange for keeping the Library open at least 2 hours/week
and doing various duties necessary to maintain the collection.  We
avoid power struggles basically by not taking ourselves too
seriously.  Besides, officers don't have much power -- just a lot of
responsibilities.  We do have meetings every Friday, but they are
just our chance to get together and be silly for an hour; we don't
conduct any serious business.

We do have two other activities -- publishing our fanzine, Twilight
Zine, and holding our Roast Beef Rally (i.e. picnic) every spring.

We're always happy to hear from other people and to show visitors
around.  I don't know how good we'd be at giving advice to a
fledgling sf club, but we'd try.

If anybody wants to know anything more, he/she should contact me
directly -- I don't want to flame about this on the net any more
than I have to.

                                        Janice

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Dec 83 2018-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #126
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 9 Dec 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 126

Today's Topics:
                   Television - Dr. Who (5 msgs),
                   Movies - Star Wars (7 msgs),
                   Miscellaneous - The Future Now

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 December 1983 22:26 est
From: TMPLee.DODCSC at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Dr. Who in MSP

(Mostly for Randy Lee, but also for any others in the MPLS-ST. PAUL
area.)

KTCA did show the first year of Peter Davison last summer;
presumably they will re-show it when they run out of Tom Baker,
'though when we last sent in our annual contribution we pleaded for
some of the third Doctor (Pertwee).  There was a rumor on one of the
local bulletin boards picked up by my twelve-year-old son that they
indeed would be showing the third Dr., but no official word.

Ted Lee

(no relation, I presume.)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 7:06:27-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who Questions

After viewing the Dr. Who Anniversary special I have a few
questions.  (I am a new viewer of Dr. Who)

1) Why were there 6 actors listed as playing the Dr. in the
anniversary show?  I have seen the program twice and I am sure about
6 actors being listed in the credits.

2) Why was Tom Baker shown so little and were his scenes from
previous episodes?

3) The companion that was with the original Dr.  Where did she come
from (in the show)?  The original Dr. was alone when he was "time
scooped", but was not alone when he got into the maze on Gallifrey.

4) Is Dr. Who shown only on Sunday night on WTTW channel 11 in the
Chicago area?

5) Channel 9 (WOR, in Seacaucus, NJ) was showing Dr. Who on Saturday
morning for a while.  Are they still showing it anytime?

Allen England at AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL
ihnp4!ihuxb!alle

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 83 11:05:46-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!jr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Where was Tom Baker

In response to the question "When will the 5th Doctor shows be shown
in the U.S." I can happily say that they're already being shown.
Here in the Silicon Valley, we got to see the Peter Davison shows on
channel 54.  Unfortunately, they've gone back to Tom Baker episodes
(the Key to Time and all that).  I haven't seen anything by the
sixth Doctor (Colin Baker, who supposedly has been sacked by the BBC
already, so we may never see him).

The Five Doctors is being shown here tonight, so I may not know
whereof I speak (yet).  I'll keep a close eye on the credits, and
try to catch the names of all of the actors playing the Doctor.

John Rogers - CompuServe: 70140,213 - UUCP: fortune!jr - MCI Mail:
jrhpp

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 14:36:27-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxm!gjphw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Five Doctors Who and Tom Baker

   This item is only designed to answer the question raised about
Tom Baker's participation in the 20th anniversary episode called the
Five Doctors Who.

    Several months ago, Tom Baker was in Chicago attending a local
Dr. Who convention.  He was on his way to Hollywood seeking
employment (unsuccessfully).  Baker was interviewed by someone from
the Chicago Tribune about his career, and some mention was made
about his personal life.  Anyway, Baker was asked if he planned on
appearing in the upcoming special episode of Dr. Who.  Baker said
that he did not intend on appearing for the special episode, and
that the studio had enough clips and outtakes to satisfy their
purposes.

   In summary, Baker did not put in an appearance for the Five
Doctors Who, and clips or outtakes were used in the episode.

   'Nough said.
                         Patrick Wyant
                         AT&T Bell Laboratories (Naperville, IL)
                         *!ihuxm!gjphw

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 83 15:09:56-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Doctor's 20th anniversary - Can anybody get me a copy?

I would dearly love to see this program, and so would others here,
but the stations that carry Doctor Who here didn't show it.  Did
anybody tape it who would be able to send me a copy?  (I would pick
up expenses)

In this case, I don't think it's copyright violation, because the
local station will eventually show it and I paid them $60 in support
of new Doctor Who programs (that's what I said when I pledged)

Could anybody who can help get in touch?

        Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 12:38:54-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihldt!ll1!sb1!mb2b!uofm-cv!paul @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Luke in the cave, zen, ...

        One admonition from the world of Zen is "If you meet the
Buddha on the road, kill him."  That is to say, realization comes
from within, etc.  and info from without is not the right stuff.  So
you can't push that zen bit too far, what with the instruction from
Yoda.
        Maybe it's more like the Kung-Fu TV show, or Luke is
learning the space-age bushido.  While he had the chance, Luke
should have enlightened the audience as to what the sound of one
hand clapping really was.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 15:35:24-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SW twenty times - (nf)

  I've got to have my eyes checked -- I could swear I just saw
  an article that said someone saw Star Wars TWENTY times!!!!!

It must have been a typo. It's obvious that everyone in this
newsgroup has seen SW at least 200 times.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 83 0:28:17-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfcla!hp-dcde!bob @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Video copies of TESB, ROTJ. - (nf)

What about video tapes?

Since Lucas hasn't released TESB or ROTJ to cable or other video
sources, any video tape of these you see has got to be black market.
How do you folks view the use and/or copying of such material?

                                Bob Hallissy
                                Hewlett Packard
                                hplabs!hpfcla!bob

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 83 1:30:55-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star Size - (nf)

        If you check the book closely (I don't remember the exact
page), the new Death Star size is given (as, you will be glad to
hear) 100 miles.

                                Michael Conley
                                ...decvax!pur-ee!iuvax!isrnix!jec

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 3 December 1983, 19:21-PST
From: Craig W. Reynolds <cwr at SWW-WHITE>
Reply-to: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX
Subject: consistency of scale in special effects

    Date: 24 Nov 83 17:22:39-PST (Thu)
    From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!rh @ Ucb-Vax
    Subject: Re: Death Star Size

         It's probably silly to try and calculate the 'size' of the
    Death Star because...

         Anyone who would make a movie with parsec as a unit of time
    is not going to bother keeping a special effect in the same scale
    every time it is shown.  Just like the mother ship coming over the
    mountain in CE3K.  Face it, these people just aren't bothered with
    details like consistent scale.  The best you're going to do on the
    size of the Death Star is "Big."
    Randwulf

Art Directors tend not to be concerned about this sort of thing.  I
suspect many of them do not understand advanced mathematical
concepts like perspective.  But certainly the special effects
hackers "in the trenches" DO care.

When we were working on TRON at triple-I the computer graphicists
were VERY loath to alter the "true" scale relationships between (for
example) the Solar Sailor and Sark's Carrier.  One reason was to
avoid extra work -- the scales of the models were already defined
globally, to cheat the size required specific hacking, plus
adjusting the new cheated size required the usual go-around with the
art director.  But mainly we wanted to keep the scale consistent
exactly to avoid the issues of confusion of size which prompted the
message quoted above.

A sense of scale is very hard to establish when you are working with
unfamiliar objects.  (For example: was it clear to any of you that
the Sailor was about 150 feet long and the carrier was almost a mile
long?)  If you start taking liberties with the scale relationships
in addition to the lack of familiar objects the audience will be
unable to judge size at all.  This leads to a sense of confusion
which will either make the effects scenes seem "less real" or just
distract the viewer from the story line.

-c

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 83 1:28:53-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf)

It's doubtful that George Lucas wrote the "Star Wars" novel -- more
likely is Alan Dean Foster (this is indicated not only by rumor but
also by style; any ADF readers agree?).  It was based on an earlier
version of the script, hence the extra scenes.  The script narrative
(The Art of SW) has parsec used as I noted earlier, as an
intentional boner.  And George Lucas was, uncontestably, the sole
script-writer.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 83 1:15:20-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!jack @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf)

I suppose a parsec of time is the time it takes light to travel
that far in a vacuum.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 83 04:11:14 EST
From: Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: the future now

I found the following ad in a catalog.  I wonder whether they know
something the rest of us don't know?

    NOW A GRAVITY GUIDANCE SYSTEM THAT FITS IN A DOORWAY!  ENJOY
    THE BENEFITS OF GRAVITATIONAL FORCE WITHOUT EQUIPMENT THAT
    TAKES UP PRECIOUS FLOOR SPACE

Just the thing for astronauts who are tired of free fall.  What is
intriguing is that not only do they seem to have gained control over
gravitation, but the second sentence implies that this is the second
generation of such equipment.  (Many people would be happy to have
such a system, even if it did take up floor space.)

[Exercise for the reader:  See if you can guess what was being sold.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Dec 83 2034-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #127
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 9 Dec 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 127

Today's Topics:
                   Special Issue - SF conventions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 1 Dec 83 04:13:25-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: NASFIC in '85

^^^^^^^^^^^^ A TALL <we grow 'em that way in Texas> TALE ^^^^^^^^^^^^

According to what I heard, at the end of World Cons, after the
winning bids for future con sites have been announced, there is a
final meeting featuring the successful sites' committees.  When that
time came at the recent Constellation, the Texas contingent (NASFIC
in '85) was already on their way for parts West.  But the
conventioneers who showed up for the meeting found, on each chair in
the room, a copy of the following--

THE HOAX REVEALED!

Now that it's too late, fandom might as well know the full extent of
the hoax perpetrated on it by the so-called "Austin in '85"
committee.

1.  THERE IS NO COMMITTEE!

None of the "Austin in '85" bid committee actually hail from Austin.
Only two are from Texas at all!  The "Travelling Texas Road Show"
was based in Greenfield, PA, where the hoax was originally
conceived.  Most of the bid members were natives of Greenfield or
nearby Scranton.  The two Texas members served only to get authentic
Texas postmarks on correspondence.  Several of the people listed on
bid sheets (i.e., Steve Jackson, Jim Gould, and Dr. Chad Oliver)
don't even exist.

2.  THERE IS NO HOTEL!

The luxurious "Austin Hyatt Regency" shown in the bidding
information really did exist - in Saigon.  All floor plans and
interior photos came from the souvenirs of a committee member who
was heavily involved in the unusual-substances trade during the war.
The hotel building is now a barracks in Ho Chi Minh City.

3.  THERE IS NO CITY!

As all Texas historians know, Austin was, indeed, the capitol of
Texas - until 1866.  During Reconstruction, the state government was
moved to Fort Worth.  With no native industry or natural
attractions, the settlement on the banks of the Colorado "river"
soon dwindled.  The town of Austin is now a historical site, with a
population of less than 300 and no industry except tourism.  Even
the "Austin" postmarks are applied at the Cedar Park post office, 20
miles to the north.

All the "Austin" skyline photographs were taken from miniatures in
Phoenix, Arizona.  The various Chamber of Commerce publications were
entirely counterfeit, except for a few glossy pamphlets originally
produced in Austinton, Nevada, and cunningly changed (or pasted up
to obscure the name).  The Austin newspapers displayed in the
scrapbook at the chili parties were copies of the Fort Worth
STAR-TELEGRAM with a fake logo attached.  And it's easy to draw new
cities into Texas maps, consisting as they do of hundreds of
thousands of square miles of empty space crossed by dirt roads.

4.  THERE IS NO TEXAS FANDOM!

Obviously, this hoax would have had no chance of succeeding if
anyone in fandom had been in the least familiar with Texas.
However, since (by actual count) only four "real Texans" have ever
attended a science fiction convention - and since one of these is
dead, one is in Detroit, and the other two were in on the joke - it
was easy to pull off.  It was pathetically simple to convince
trusting SMOFs that Texas is really just like any place else, and
that there was a thriving colony of fans in that misbegotten desert.
Actually, Texas is entirely unfit for human habitation.  There are
no native science fiction conventions: the program material for
"AggieCon," "ArmadilloCon," and the other "Texas conventions" was
the product of a few days' work for two mimeos and a Xerox copier in
Wilkes-Barre.

(Ironically, the "chili" served by the travelling Austin road show
was the only authentic thing about the entire bid.  The original
recipe for chili used viciously hot peppers and other native weeds
to disguise the tainted flavor of the carrion which was the only
protein available to Texas squatters.  Thanks to the bounty of our
nation's highways, the chili served by the Texas bidders was always
genuine in every respect.)

5.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ARMADILLO!

The ludicrous appearance of Austin's totem animal should have given
the whole thing away.  Obviously, there is no such creature!  While
Texas rats do indeed grow to over two feet long, the scaly hide and
friendly appearance of the armadillo were both figures of the
bidders' fevered imagination.  The "live shots" of armadillos, as
shown by the bid committee, were actually DR WHO out takes, showing
an early (and rejected) version of the Daleks.

6.  THERE IS NO RECOURSE!

The World Science Fiction Society is now legally obligated to hold
the 1985 NASFIC in a desert whistle stop.  There's nothing that
anybody can do about it, and nobody in their right mind will go.
However, we don't expect this to deter many fans...  so herewith, a
few bits of advice.

FIRST - Don't expect a friendly reception.  Texas is populated
entirely by spiders, snakes, and starving, hard-bitten farmers,
leavened by an occasional wealthy and decadent oil family.  The
Houston bayou country, of course, is infested with Cajuns,
mosquitoes, and alligators.  Texas has only two colleges, no
institutes of higher education, and no cultural life.  In fact there
are strict laws against nearly everything a fan would be likely to
do, either for entertainment or for a living.  Law enforcement in
Texas is strict, and the Travis County Sheriff's Department is
extraordinarily hostile to students, Yankees, and strangers in
general.

SECOND - Don't expect reasonable accommodations.  While the natives
of Austin are utterly unprepared for an influx of the type a Nasfic
will generate, they all make their living from fleecing tourists,
and will do their best to rise to the occasion.  Some campgrounds
will probably be available by then - but DO NOT camp close to the
Colorado River.  Although it looks like a muddy creek most of the
year, it regularly floods, often without warning.  The convenience
of a nearby water supply must be balanced against the depth of your
desire not to be washed halfway to the Gulf of Mexico.

THIRD - Under no circumstances should you bring ANY cash or credit
cards.  You will only lose them, probably the first night on the bus
in from Houston.  Carry travellers' checks or a checkbook.
Travellers' checks are best, as the local courts will not accept
personal checks without ID, and that is likely to be stolen as well.
It is also wise to have a friend back in civilization who will wire
bail money as needed.

FOURTH - Make your travel plans early.  Strange as it may seem, it
is better to drive in your own vehicle than it is to trust yourself
to the vagaries of Texas public transportation.  Gasoline is
plentiful, with the wait at the out-of-state-plates-pump rarely
exceeding 30 minutes.

FIFTH - A few simple health and safety precautions will greatly
improve your chances of surviving the Nasfic.  If at all possible,
bring your own food and water.  Spend the day indoors, if
accommodations can be found, or at the very least in the shade, in
order to avoid sun stroke.  (Any convention activities which
actually occur will be held at night, when the temperature reaches a
bearable 85 degrees.)  Before your trip, make sure you get
vaccinations for Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever (carried by ticks),
malaria (if you plan to enter through Houston), and brucellosis (a
cattle disease communicable to humans).  Pack a snake bite kit and a
good supply of antihistamines, especially if you are allergy prone.
Powdered sulfur, dusted liberally in clothing and your sleeping bag,
will help to discourage fire ants and the common hairy tarantula.
However, nothing repels scorpions, so be sure to shake out your
shoes in the morning.  And avoid any contact with the native
vegetation, which includes poison ivy, poison oak, poison sumac,
strangler fig, and carnivorous St. Augustine's grass.

GOOD LUCK!

(I wonder if the city slickers who wrote that were aware of the
extra kick in that remark about brucellosis... It's bovine VD!)

Anyhow, tho they are not personally known to me, said city slickers
sound as if they ought to put on a pretty fair NASFIC, if having a
wild sense of humor is any criterion.  So, start thinking about it
NOW, and as they say down here, "Y'all come!"

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 83 15:01:44-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!cae780!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: baycon revisited

I was one of a reported 1200 people who flocked to San Jose for the
SF Bay Area SF and Fantasy convention (baycon 83) over the
Thanksgiving weekend.  For those that didn't get there, here are a
few comments on it (con committee members, please sharpen pencils):

Overall, this was the most pleasant convention I have ever been to.
Most of the convention started on time (*gasp*) and when there were
delays, they were minimal. The costume show, usually the massive
bottleneck at a con, started about 30 minutes late (much better than
average from the cons I have seen).

Unlike most cons, I came home relaxed and refreshed. Most cons tend
to be exhausting. One big difference is that the Baycon people seem
to have made a commitment to not do everything in three days (I
mean, God took 6!). They scheduled conferences for a full hour, and
left each room vacant for half an hour so that overruns and
interesting discussions didn't need to get cut off abruptly. Very
few conferences ended naturally in under an hour, and I know of only
one that hadn't finished in 90 minutes. This saves the hassles of
trying to find rooms to continue discussions and all the attached
hassles. This also gives you a lot of time to look at art and
exhibits and get to the next conference leisurely (hear hear!).

The art show was small, but high quality. Very few horny vulcans. A
number of pro's showed (and sold) work as well as amateurs. Well
represented were Don Maitz (AGoH), Ken Macklin, and Ray Mcginnis.
Some of these authors were also selling limited editions and repros
for those of us who can't afford the original art work.

There was a LOT of art oriented conferences, lots of slides and
discussion. Looking back, there may have been more about SF art (and
comic art) than about SF literature, but I certainly didn't mind.

The costume show was a little small (40 entries) for 1200 people,
but once again it was very high quality costuming. The main reason
for the smallness was that, for once, there was a high level of self
restraint from the people wearing hall costumes not to walk on stage
and make a fool of themselves. Best of show went to a group (watch
for these at worldcon!) of five costumes from Vinge's Snow Queen.

A VERY high quality file program. A film room went on pretty much 24
hours a day. They also had BCTV (Bay Con TV) which was piped into
all rooms in the hotel showing theater level SF (such as Wolfen,
Tron, etc...) that ran through the entire con. A second TV channel
was used for schedules (* gripes: the sound track was an apple
playing bolero. It didn't change for three days (May I never hear
that song again!). Also, there were too few monitors in the
convention with the schedule on it).

At times security got a little strident. The fact that they were all
dressed in Mad Max outfits didn't make me feel any better (although
they weren't as bad as some Dorsai security I have run into in the
past). I much prefer hobbits for security, simply because they
prefer to ask rather than order (I also prefer orcs for gofers, just
in case asking doesn't work).

They had entertainment during costume judging. No offense to costume
MC's, but this was a nicer way to keep the masses quiet. The
magician they brought in was a little inappropriate, because many of
the audience did not appreciate the razor blade and sword
swallowing.  (sidebar: There was an interesting side community of
punk at the con, both in the staff and the members. In some cases
the punk influence was a little strong for my taste (such as the
magician) and there were others who felt the same way. This is not
putting down the punks, its just that not everyone appreciates
getting to watch someone stick needles through their arms waiting
for the costume awards... Something less controversial would have
been nice.


Synopsis: GREAT CON, Guys! Keep up the good work, and see you next
year!

>From the dungeons of the warlock:      {amd70 qubix}!cae780!chuqui
                Chuqui the Plaid        *pif*

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Dec 83 1233-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #128
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 10 Dec 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 128

Today's Topics:

        Books - Channel's Destiny (2 msgs) & Anthony & Brin,
        Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs),
        Films - Star Wars (5 msgs),
        Miscellaneous - SF Clubs & Recent SF awards

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Dec 83 11:35 MST
From: Spratt@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: The Sime/Gen stories: Channel's Destiny.

I just read Channel's Destiny (I don't remember the authors) and
enjoyed it a great deal.  The book says that it's "another in the
Sime/Gen series".  I have never heard of this series before (it's
apparently published by DAW).  Does anybody know anything about this
series?  I'd like to find the other books.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 83 18:14:49-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!bane @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Sime/Gen stories: Channel's Destiny.

Are the Sime/Gen stories about the world with two different types of
people: Simes, who have tentacles and need a particular type of
energy to live, and Gens who are normal people except they produce
this energy, so there is basically a war on with Simes hunting the
Gens ...

Of course, I could have the names of the races wrong. I read two
books about them, but forget the author or titles. Whatever they
were, I enjoyed them.

                                - rene

"Peoles have feeelings, too"
Arpa:   rene.umcp-cs@CSNet-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!rene

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 83 7:21:25-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dann @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Anthony"s XANTH - (nf)

Someone just wrote that Piers Anthony is "a very good writer of
science fiction/fantasy".  Kind of as a public service, I just
want to point out that while Piers Anthony does have good ideas,
his writing style tends to leave splinters in the mind of the
reader.

I've found his books to be mostly unreadable, mostly due to his
rather tedious habit of explaining at great length his character's
motivations and thoughts in a pedantic manner even in the midst of
battles, escapes, and what have you.

His sense of whimsy also tends to much towards the "cute" for my
tastes.

My judgement of Piers Anthony has always been that he would be
a good writer if he would only learn how to write.

   dann

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 83 5:12:58-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxg!burton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Library - Possible Future History

With all the discussion going about the Library in *Startide
Rising*, it seems that some people have missed a few references in
the book.  Specifically:

        - The humans and fen were on a survey mission to update
          Library information. My impression is that the Galactics
          regularly sent out such missions to TRY to keep the
          Library up-to-date, but it is a somewhat impossible
          job.

        - Someone mentioned the enormity of the task of "learning
          the Library". True, but there were several references to
          Galactics having spent large amounts of time digging up
          obscure references from the Library; in particular, the
          Brothers of the Night and their secret weapon (which
          was nullified by one of the other Patron races because
          one of their Clients was in the Library assisting with
          the research)(sorry about the vagueries, I'm at work
          and my copy of the book is at home).

I think Brin did a good job of presenting some of the difficulties
of using such a Library.


                        Doug Burton
                        ATT-CP Indianapolis
                        inuxg!burton

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 1983 01:14:43-EST
From: Edward.Tecot@CMU-CS-H
Subject: Dr. Who -- Tegan/Brigadier

        Tegan did in fact meet the Brigadier for the first time in
the episode in Heathrowe. (I think it was called something like "A
Stitch in Time") If you remember, a few episodes back, Tegan had
wanted to return to 1982 England, but the Tardis kept falling a few
centuries short.  Well, they finally make it to 1982 England and
happen to land in Heathrowe.  It turns out that the Brigadier has a
problem -- a Concorde jet has just disappeared into nowhere.  Well
anyway, to continue to refresh your memory, the whole thing is a
trap that the master has set for the doctor.  It turns out that the
Doctor once again prevails by playing galactic croquet with him.
This, if I remember correctly, this was near the end of the first
season.

                                        _emt

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 83 19:58:48-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Where was Tom Baker - (nf)

I wouldn't say he's 'refusing to associate with Doctor Who' if he
keeps going to conventions.

                                        Mary

------------------------------

Date: Fri 9 Dec 83 11:17:38-MST
From: Michi Wada <WADA@SANDIA.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who

Some questions with regards to the special that have not yet been
asked:

1) Can anybody explain how the second Doctor knew that Jamie and Zoe
should have no memory of him and the Brigadier?

Jamie's and Zoe's memories of their adventures with the Doctor were
taken away from them by the Time Lords in the same story where the
second Doctor was standing trial.  The result of the trial was that
he underwent a forced regeneration and was exiled to earth.  The
second Doctor should have no knowledge that Jamie's and Zoe's
memories of him did not exist because that should have been in his
future.

2) Where was Chameleon(sp?)?

Chameleon became one of the Doctor's companions at the end of
Davison's second season (the last story shown in England before the
special was shown).  Where was he(it) when all this occurred?  For
anybody wondering Chameleon is a shape changing android.

                                Michi Wada
                                Sandia National Laboratories
                                Albuquerque, N.M.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 83 19:57:30-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!twt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Video copies of TESB, ROTJ. - (nf)

Black market tapes may be illegal, and I wouldn't make any (I
wouldn't know how to anyway).  I have been known to tape things off
the airwaves: Soap Operas, Favorite Old Movies (Harvey & Casablanca
to name a couple), and even things from pay TV (ANH).  And, even
though I personally wouldn't make any, and probably would not pay an
extreme amount for one, if S. Claus dropped one off under my tree, I
certainly wouldn't ask where it came from.

Mary (surprised this group is still alive) Todd

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 83 12:31:18-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!rene @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star Size

Has anyone done any statistic studies on the size of the deathstar?
A friend of mine did, and the results were really interesting. I
don't remember the numbers, but even leaving only 1/4 of the
available space and giving minimum space per person, and counting
only deaths from natural causes (i.e. no automobile accidents)
something like the population of the world today (~4 billion) died
every year aboard the Death Star. The sheer volume of that thing is
staggering! Would someone like to figure out the volume, number of
people, etc, so we can see the rest of the figures? (I heard these
at a party over a year ago, so my memory could have lapsed)

                                - rene

"Peoles have feeelings, too"
Arpa:   rene.umcp-cs@CSNet-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!rene

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 83 12:45:23-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!astrovax!elt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Death Star Population = Imperial Casualties

|A recent discussion concluded that the probable diameter of the
Death Star is in the range 80-160 km based on several lines of
argument.

umcp-cs!rene raised the question of the probable population of a
"ship" of this size.

A simple calculation shows that an 80 km. radius sphere has a volume
of 270,000 km^3 and assuming decks separated by 3m, a total deck
space area of 90 million km^2 (roughly half the land area of the
Earth).  If this structured were manned at the same crew density as
a modern nuclear aircraft carrier (say CVN Enterprise to be
specific), its population would be about 2 trillion!  This figure
could be brought down to about 20 billion if the crew density were
reduced to a level comparable to that in a crowded country (e.g.,
Japan or the Netherlands).  At levels comparable to a rather empty
country (say Australia), the number would be down to about 200
million (i.e., comparable to the population of the US).  This last
number would be roughly like manning a CVN with only one person!
The crew would have a hard time finding each other!

If the per capita energy consumption in the Death Star were equal to
that in the US today, the Death Star's surface temperature would be
2300 deg. K (3700 deg F = glowing a dull red hot), 730 deg. K (855
deg F), or 230 deg K (-45 deg F) respectively for the three
population figures mentioned above.  This would be required simply
to radiate waste heat into space.  The interior temperatures would
be higher.

Ed Turner
astrovax!elt

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 83 15:54:39-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!drmxa!drux3!druxu!tll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star Population = Imperial Casualties

Ed's calculations of the surface temperature of the Death Star
(temperature required to radiate heat from "normal" energy
consumption) give a possible reason why the Death Star would have to
be so large.  In order to support a large population (such as 200
million), you would need to have a large surface area simply to
radiate the waste heat, even though the population density is
extremely low.  Perhaps this also explains why they have passageways
large enough for spaceships penetrating from the outer skin to the
main reactor area: to allow heat to escape (although it wouldn't
radiate out of the hole very well -- you'd probably need to allow
some gases to escape to carry away heat.  Obviously, the loss of a
little raw materials isn't a major concern to someone who'd build
something that big.).

                                Tom Laidig
                                AT&T Information Systems
                                ...!ihnp4!druxu!tll

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Dec 83 11:03:07 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: THE SOUND OF ONE HAND CLAPPING, and WHO REMARK

BUDDHAS IN SPACE:

Well, if anyone in STAR WARS can give us the sound of one hand
clapping, I guess young Luke is the one (as of midway through TESB).

WHO HAH:

Can we set up a separate who-lovers mailing list for all this
whophemism?  Don't take this personally, anybody, or as a criticism
of the Good Doctor in any of his efforts or incarnations...but I
think it's getting out of hand.  (Per above.)

P.S.  Has Clark Kent ever tried to use the TARDIS for changing into
Superman?

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 83 16:38:29-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!rene @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF clubs

I belong to LUMSFS, formerly UMSFS (University of Maryland Science
Fiction Society) (we now meet Wednesdays at Lum's restaurant). We
used to be quite active, but the real 'drive' people graduated. We
did spawn a SF-con club, UNICON. The male-female ratio was pretty
bad, but lately I think it's about 3-1.

                                        - rene

"Peoles have feeelings, too"
Arpa:   rene.umcp-cs@CSNet-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!rene

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 83 14:57:38-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Recent Awards

For people who don't get LOCUS (like me, until this month), here are
the winners of the World Fantasy Awards and British Fantasy Awards:

        Category        Title                   Author
WFA:
        Best Novel:     Nifft the Lean          Michael Shea
        Best Novella:   Beyond All Measure      Karl Wagner
           (tie)        Confess the Seasons     Charles Grant
        Best S. Story:  The Gorgon              Tanith Lee

BFA:
        Best Novel:     The Sword of the Lictor Gene Wolfe
        Best Short Fic: The Breathing Method    Stephen King

I think the British had better taste...  I've reviewed NIFFT and
SWORD and 'Method' on the net before.

Donn Seeley    UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF  ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W  (619) 452-4016  sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@noscvax

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Dec 83 1538-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #129
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Dec 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 129

Today's Topics:
     Books - Huxley & Gilliland & Mccaffrey & Orwell (5 msgs) &
	       Tepper & Varley,
     Films - Star Wars,
     Television - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 83 10:02:29-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!kobold!tjt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Brave New World

Another anti-utopian classic "Brave New World" describes what the
world would be like if it was mostly populated by air heads and
valley girls.  Gruesome to think about, but not as depressing as
Huxley seemed to realize that not *everyone* would want to live in
California, and that the government would realize this too.

Of course, another aspect of "Brave New World" was the breeding of
nearly sub-human races to provide the cheap labor to support the
upper classes.  One wonders if Huxley had written the book twenty or
thirty years later if he would have still done this, or simply used
robots instead.  I believe that the use of conditioning to keep the
proles in their place is really a secondary theme in "Brave New
World", although an important one.

Tom Teixeira,  Massachusetts Computer Corporation.  Westford MA
...!{ihnp4,harpo,decvax,ucbcad,tektronix}!masscomp!tjt
   (617) 692-6200

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 1983 16:32:17 EST (Sunday)
From: Dave Mankins <dm@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Alexis Gilliland's "The end of the empire"

Alexis Gilliland, bureaucrat extraordinaire author of "*
{from/for/of} Rosinante" has returned with another novel, set in a
different future history from that of the Rosinante books.

The new book called "The end of the empire" is about the last gasp
of the Holy Human Empire (which like its name-sake, is neither holy,
nor totally human, nor an empire any more).  It details the
adventures of Colonel Karff (a Hero) in the Imperial Secret Police
as he tries to "underraise a government" on an anarchist out-world,
in order to

    a) give the last of the empire (mainly just the imperial
        family and their entourage) a place to hang out.

    b) protect the people of the anarchist back-world (as well
        as the last of the empire) from the clutches of the
        even-worse-than-the-empire rebels who are in hot pursuit.

Gilliland writes about politics and political machinations in a way
that feels realistic, believable, and entertaining.  Through the
first three quarters of the book I was planning to give a copy of it
to all my Libertarian friends in revenge for all those ridiculously
naive Libertarian Utopia science-fiction novels that have been
appearing of late.  But toward the end the book develops two flaws:

    1) Karff, an honorable, competent, and intelligent man gets all
        misty-eyed about the death of an empire he is too smart
        to be fooled by.  I mean, Gilliland just spent 150 pages
        showing us how much political-savvy this guy has, and
        then in the last 20 or so pages he acts like someone who
        BELIEVES all that propaganda he learned in imperial
        civics class in high school.  This was somewhat
        disappointing.

    2) The government Karff underraises, as my Libertarian
        friends would say "reveals it's true gangsterish nature."
        (Sigh, I think those Libertarian friends, after gnashing
        their teeth for 150 or so pages, would finally find
        something satisfying.  Rats.  Back to my Christmas list...)
        Why, he almost had ME converted to believing in government
        there for a while...

Nonetheless, it's a pretty good book, though I don't think it's as
good as the Rosinante books.

By the way, the Rosinante books:

        The Revolution from Rosinante
        Pirates of Rosinante
        Long Shot for Rosinante

appear to be coming back into print (yay!).  They are about how
you keep a "mundito" (read: "Oneil space colony") going despite
the machinations of national and international politics in the
next century.  These books combine political savvy, brilliant
engineers, artificially-intelligent computers with a penchant
for Humphrey Bogart and Yoshiro Mifune imitations to make a
damn fine read.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 9 Dec 83 23:39:29-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: "Moreta" sequel?

     My wife asked Anne McCaffrey if "Moreta" was going to be the
first of a new trilogy.  Anne's answer was: "She's dead" in a tone
that implied that no, "Moreta" was going to be a stand-alone.  She
declined comment about any future Dragonrider books.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 83 0:50:08-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!aecom!sanders @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: 1984

>    Howcome nobody is talking about 1984 (the novel).  I am
>re-reading it for the first time in years and it is horribly
>depressing. Anyone interested in discussing this or other
>"classical" science fiction feel free to post!

You mean you didn't find it horribly depressing the first time??!?

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 83 22:24:18-PST (Wed)
From: sun!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 1984

1984 has more to make you think than just about any other work of
fiction.  It is frightening how accurate some of his observations
and predictions have turned out to be.

Take for instance MiniLuv, the Ministry of Love (War) and its slogan
"War is Peace" then remember that Reagan calls the MX missile the
"Peacekeeper".  Has he read 1984??

1984 is the 4th most frequently censored book in the USA according
to a list compiled by Dr. Lee Buress of the University of Wisconsin
at Stevens Point.  This is based on 6 surveys from challenged books
in the nations libraries taken from 1965 to 1982.

People who challenge 1984 must either a) not have read it, or

b) have completely missed everything that Orwell was trying to alert
us to, or

c) have completely understood it and don't want others to know what
they are doing.

Other books amoung the top 30 most censored include

The Catcher in the Rye -- J.D. Salinger
Forever -- Judy Blume
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn -- Mark Twain
To Kill a Mockingbird -- Harper Lee
Slaughterhouse Five -- Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
The Learning Tree -- Gordon Parks
One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest -- Ken Kesey
Anne Frank: Diary of a Young Girl -- Anne Frank

It's quite a list...  There are some wonderful books on it.
--
>From the Doubleplus Ungood Keyboard of Mark Callow
msc@qubix.UUCP,  decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc,
 ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 83 7:53:16-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!clyde!akgua!gatech!ofut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 1984

I've got an idea.  Let's everybody go home (or wherever) over
christmas and read it.  Then we can start a rousing argument, er,
ah, that is discussion about it on the appropriate time.  Jan. 1,
1984.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 83 9:59:06-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!kobold!tjt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "1984" & "Animal Farm"

"Animal Farm" is a description of how communistic or socialistic
ideals can decay into an oppressive situation remarkably similar to
the conditions before the revolution.  The overall tone of "Animal
Farm" is less depressing (except at the end) because the main
characters are animals rather than people.

"1984" is a description of a possible result of many years under an
overly authoritarian government.  I don't associate "1984" with
communism or socialism per se, although one of the tenets of "Animal
Farm" is that these governments will always become harshly
authoritarian.

Tom Teixeira,  Massachusetts Computer Corporation.  Westford MA
...!{ihnp4,harpo,decvax,ucbcad,tektronix}!masscomp!tjt
   (617) 692-6200

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 83 5:14:07-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!tektronix!ucbcad!ucbesvax.turner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: 1984 & Animal Farm - (nf)

Actually, "Animal Farm" is even more specific: it's clear to anyone
with some knowledge of the Russian Revolution that "Animal Farm" is
a precise allegory--to the point where one of the pigs just has to
be Leon Trotsky!  (Hey, I'll go along with him there...)

The other farms, to which the free animals first attempt to export
their revolution, later have their revolutions subverted by the
"leaders" (the pigs) of Animal Farm, who decide that their interests
are better served if outlying farms have human masters.  This an
allegory for Stalin's policy in Republican Spain--that a capitalist
European ally was preferable to one with a non-Russian-controlled
revolutionary government.  Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" makes this
connection unmistakable.

Orwell's point was *not* that communism and/or socialism degenerate
into totalitarianism.  "Animal Farm" is an indictment of Stalinism,
with a quizzical eye on Lenin, as well.  For a clearer exposition of
his real feelings about radical politics, read his nonfiction books.
Only then (I think) can his science fiction/fantasy/allegory novels
be read with some depth of understanding.  (Not that they can't be
enjoyed otherwise...)

Michael Turner (ucbvax!ucbesvax.turner)

------------------------------

Date: 04 Dec 83 17:56:33 PST (Sun)
From: "Tim Shimeall" <tim.uci-750a@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Tepper's "King's Blood Four" and "Necromancer Nine"
Reply-to: Tim Shimeall <tim@Uci-750a>

Sheri S. Tepper, apparently a new author, has written an exceptional
pair of books, "King's Blood Four" and "Necromancer Nine".  The
titles refer to risk factors in a "True Game" that the society is
centered around, both as recreation, career, and population control.
The books form the first two parts of a Trilogy, with the last part
"Sorcerer Eleven" due out in February.  VERY good books, but it
takes a while to get "into" the society the author creates.  Be
prepared to re-read the first chapter of "King's Blood Four" after
finishing the book. I did and found I understood it (and enjoyed the
foreshadowing) a LOT more.  I HIGHLY recommend these books to those
that enjoy fantasy, with a touch of psionics.
                                Tim

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 83 15:28:05-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!ciaraldi @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Varley's Millennium
From: Mike Ciaraldi <ciaraldi>

I just read MILLENNIUM by John Varley, and liked it.  You may have
read his short story "Air Raid" which was reprinted in his anthology
The Persistence of Vision.  Millennium is basically a novel based on
the same ideas as the story, with the original story, extensively
rewritten, taking up one or more chapters.

Basic plot (non spoiler):

Far in the future, the human race is on its last legs. The
environment is so polluted, and the gene pool so riddled with
defective genes, that humanity will be dying out any day.  So, they
send agents back in time to the scenes of disasters (e.g.  airline
crashes with NO SURVIVORS) to kidnap all the people who would have
died and replace them with carefully-constructed corpses,
appropriately mutilated.  The kidnapees are brought to the future
and put into suspended animation, so that they can eventually
populate a new planet and continue humanity. This all works because
the agents are careful to avoid paradoxes. When one of them leaves a
ray gun behind, the heroine has to go back and pick it up, and cover
any other traces.

Neat touches include running through the same scenes twice, as
perceived by the heroine and by the hero, who is a twentieth-century
plane crash investigator. They are experiencing their meetings in
different orders subjectively.

There are a series of twist endings, too.

Varley acknowledges some of the great time travel stories of the
past by using their names ("All You Zombies", "The Time Machine",
etc.)  as chapter titles. He also mentions that the book title was
used previously by Ben Bova (KINSMAN is the prequel to Bova's
MILLENNIUM).

One final thing interesting is that the book is copyright by MGM/UA
Home Entertainment, rather than Varley himself.  Does this mean
they'll be making a movie of it?

Mike Ciaraldi
ciaraldi@rochester

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 83 11:30:41-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!amd70!cae780!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: new use for net.movies.sw

Since it is fairly obvious that the Star Wars saga has come to an
end for the forseeable future (George, good job, and enjoy your
vacation!), perhaps it is time to rethink what net.movies.sw is all
about. Rather than disappear it completely, I think a valid use
would be to expand its topic to Lucasfilm in general and perhaps
even to ILM (hey, dagobah, you listening?). I recently saw a preview
of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and there is a lot to be
talked about there. Also, ILM has a lot of neat projects going (Hey,
ILM! Need a good Unix programmer? I know where you can find one!!!
*giggle*)... Any comments?

--
>From the dungeons of the warlock:      {amd70 qubix}!cae780!chuqui
                Chuqui the Plaid        *pif*

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Dec 83 06:10 MST
From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: The six Drs. Who

The reason that there were six actors' names in the credits from the
five doctors show is that right at the very beginning there was a
clip of the original Dr. (William Hartnell) together with his
granddaughter Susan.  As Hartnell is no longer with us the Beeb
brought in a ringer (Richard Hurndall - sp?) to play the first
incarnation of the errant TimeLord.

          Deryk Barker.
          (all the way from england).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 83 1526-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #130
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 16 Dec 1983      Volume 8 : Issue 130

Today's Topics:
          Books - Duane & Lichtenberg (2 msgs) & Orwell &
                  Pohl & Russ & Vance & Varley
          Films - ILM & Star Wars (4 msgs)
          Miscellaneous - The Future Now

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1983 at 10:41 EST
From: Alan L. Zeichick <ZEICHICK%MAINE.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: New ST Book

Look for "The Wounded Sky" by Diane Duane; as Star Trek books go,
this is pretty good, even though the blurb on the back cover seems a
bit misleading: the alien scientist K't'lk sounds very nice, but
hardly pretty!  Ms. Duane is obviously a very profound thinker, and
I look forward to more of her books.  This book is very new;
publication date was this month.

As a note, I maintain a listing of all ST fiction books; if anyone
wants a copy, just ask me for one.

-Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Dec 83 23:39 MST
From: Bill Beikman <Beikman@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The Sime/Gen stories

The other books in the series are:

          First Channel
          House of Zoer
          Molt Brother

All are by Jaquueline Lichtenberg, and all were published by Playboy
Press.  JL was co-authored by Jean Lorrah on `First Channel'.  Also
`The House of Zoer' was first published by Pocket Books.  In
addition Jean Lorrah has published a book called `Savage Empire'
under Playboy which I don't believe is related to the Sime/Gen
stories.

Regards,
- bill -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Dec 83 18:28 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel%umass-cs@CSNet-Relay>
Subject: Sime/Gen novels

     There have been five novels published in the Sime/Gen series by
Jacqueline Lichtenberg.  These are, in order of publication:

          HOUSE OF ZEOR                  (Playboy/Berkley)
          UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER             (Playboy/Berkley)
          FIRST CHANNEL  **              (Playboy/Berkley)
          MAHOGANY TRINROSE              (Playboy/Berkley)
          CHANNEL'S DESTINY  **          (DAW)

A new novel, RENSIME, is due out next month in hardcover from
Doubleday, and there are more on the way.  The books marked with **
were written by Jean Lorrah and Jacqueline Lichtenberg; all others
are only by Jacqueline.  The first four were published by Playboy
before they were bought by Berkley and the lines were merged.
Anyone wanting further news on the series, authors, or publishers
can write; if there is enough interest, I'll send a follow-up
letter.
                                           Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: Tue 13 Dec 83 18:45:14-EST
From: Dragon <Cellio@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: 1984

One nit-pick: It was MiniPax (or MinPax?) that was the ministry of
war (Peace).

I read this book for the first time this semester because I had to
for a class.  To think that I almost got through four years of
college and all of high school without ever having to read it...

                                                        -D

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 83 19:31:20-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!akhtar @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Starburst? by Pohl - (nf)

I saw the 'new' (in paperback) novel by Pohl at the bookstore
recently, I think it is called Starburst. The blurb on the cover
sounded very reminiscent of a short story he wrote some time ago
called 'The Gold at the Starbow's End'. Can anyone out there
enlighten me on this? Is his novel a lengthened version of the short
story?

        ...pur_ee!uiucdcs!akhtar

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1983 10:05:25 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications
From: Mgr.)
Subject: Women Writers

     Those who were intrigued by the review of Zoe Fairbains
"Benefits" in SFL 123 (which, by the way, I found in my mainstream
bookstore, shelved both under sf and under modern lit) should look
into a short but intense new non- fiction book by Joanna Russ
entitled "How to Suppress Womens' Writing".  It was just published
by the University of Texas Press, in both hard- and paper- back
editions, and is well worth reading.
     Russ has moved beyond the polemical style of feminism that
turned so many people (of both sexes) away from "The Female Man,"
her most important novel.  In "How to..." she analyses the various
arguments that have been used all through history to demean and
deprecate female authors.  Many of her examples are, for good
reasons, drawn from the field of science fiction.  Her quotations
from authors like Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, Ursula LeGuin, and Kate
Wilhelm are enough to make the book of interest to SFL readers.
     Unfortunately, there's another reason -- she's pretty much
right in what she says.  While one can't go so far as to say that
there's been an intentional conspiracy against female authors, she
makes an excellent case for the fact they've been treated badly, not
only by the publishing industry, but (and this is probably far more
important in the long run) also by the critical and academic
establishments.
     Russ has made her own mistakes in the cause of feminism during
her career, such as the "Tiptree Scandal" several years back in the
fanzine 'Khatru', but this book avoids them.  I recommend this book
to anyone interested in either sf or womens' issues, though you'll
probably need to look in either an academic or womens' bookstore to
find it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1983 10:12:51 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications
From: Mgr.)
Subject: Cugel's Saga

    I just finished reading Vance's "Cugel's Saga", and also noticed
the problems mentioned in SFL 123 -- the book did seem weaker than
the previous two in the "series".  I think there are two reasons for
this, though: first of all, this is actually a series of stories
that were independently printed (mostly in F&SF, as I recall) and
later welded into a novel through various modifications.  That's a
common practice in sf, and one which has seldom proven to produce a
good book -- I'd much rather the author came out with a short story
collection about a single character.  The other problem is simply
that it has been many years since Vance started writing about the
Dying Earth, and the subject may simply be less interesting to him
these days -- as I recall, the stories that form the new book came
out over a period of five or six years, i.e., Vance wasn't inclined
(for whatever reasons) to put in the continuous effort needed to
produce a novel, he just wrote the occasional story as it came to
mind.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 13 Dec 83 15:08:43-PST
From: Cher Gunby <CHER@WASHINGTON.ARPA>
Subject: John Varley

According to our book-buyer at the campus bookstore, Varley's
MILLENNIUM is indeed going to be a movie.  In fact, he contracted to
write MILLENIUM and its screenplay, before he could finish DEMON,
the third book in his Gaia trilogy.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 83 16:04:14-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: New Use for .sw in ILM

Yes, let's talk about artistic and technical aspects of Lucasfilm
and ILM, and maybe keep the nitpicking down to low roar.  As you
know, the booklet sold in theatres with ROTJ was worth its $3 for
photos and explantations of how SFX and models were made.  Some
questions: Does ILM use computer-generated CRT graphics?  Vector or
Raster scan?  Do they build their own hardware, or all
off-the-shelf?
Clearly they write lots of software.    mike k

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1983 07:43:20 PST
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: ANH parsec/ film terminology

   The use of the word parsec in ANH could be explained like this:

   There is a famous, well-traveled trade route between point A and
point B.  Along this "run" are many hazardous obstacles, perhaps
asteroids, black holes, radiation fields, or bogey men.  Most
pilots avoid the worst of these and take a relatively safe course.
Some intrepid spacers, though, plow right through the center of
these dangers, which makes for a shorter (and therefore faster) run.
The motivation for this is a handsome bonus for the pilot if he
survives and delivers his cargo ahead of schedule.  Solo, possessing
greed instead of sense, is one of the few to have made the more
dangerous but shorter trip.  His claim to Ben elicited a
condescending look not because he had used incorrect terminology,
but because it was just too incredible to believe.  The trade route
in question was measured in distance, not time.

*****

   But why bother worrying about such things?  Script writers use
terms that "sound" scientific, but may be all wrong.  ***But who
says they ARE wrong?  Maybe in the SW universe the word parsec DOES
refer to time, and maybe in the Battlestar Galactica colonial
language, the micron is a measure of time as well.*** True,
scientific correctness is nice, but little things like these don't
bother me, if the film isn't serious anyway, and especially if they
can be explained, as above.

Steve (carroll@isib)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 83 19:38:06-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!dual!proper!gam @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Question: Powers of Lite Sabres

Lite Sabers, of course, use less energy than Light Sabers ...

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 83 10:58:09-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!hitchens @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Just a (par)sec...

   When I saw Star Wars the first time (in '75) I also noticed the
parsec slip.  I mentioned this to my math teacher (who had already
seen it three times), he had an interesting explanation for the use
of distance measurements over velocity.  The Millenium Falcon uses
Hyperdrive, faster than light, this type of propulsion naturally
works by distorting space to move you from one point to another.
This means that the more hyper your drive is, the shorter the
apparent distance from A to B.
   Well, it's an idea anyway.
   I don't think Lucas and any other script writers involved had
such subtleties in mind, more likely it was just a tongue-in-cheek
move to see how many people would notice (and how many years later
they would still be discussing it).
   May the Force be with you.

Ron Hitchens
<I'm pretty sure I've got my death ray in here somewhere>

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 83 4:33:13-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!isrnix!jec @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf)

        Or as my Traveller friends like to say, "I made the Indy 500
in 480..."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1983  22:09 EST
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: the future now

Golly, could it possibly be one of those gizmos that hangs you
upside down?
                                                James

------------------------------

Date: 13 December 1983 06:04 EST
From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE @ MIT-ML>

        MC seems to hav flogged off.  Anyone with interest in space
should know that at this moment they are deciding in Washington
whether to (1) do nothing, (2) do a space station, or (3) do a space
station and a lunar base.
        (3) Is Quite Possible, and could be in the State of the Union
address.
        If you have a strong opinion on this matter, they'd like
to know it in the White House.  The L-5 Society is going all out to
generate letters.

Thought you might like to know.  Since MC is dead, it's a bit
hard to reply to me...
JEP

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Dec 83 1143-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #132
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Dec 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:
              Books - Brin & Huxley & Orwell & Pohl &
                      Book Requests (2 msgs) & Miscellaneous
              Film - 2010: A Space Odyssey & ILM
              Television - Dr. Who & Blake's Seven
              Miscellaneous - Old Time Religion & Parsecs & Black Holes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 1983  18:28 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: The Library - Possible Future History

        Given all the conversation about Brin's Library, I would
recommend that anyone with a sense of humor try to find Asimov's
book, "Laughing Space".  It contains a story (sorry, I don't
remember the title) about a Library very similiar to Brin's, and
what became of it...

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 83 13:55:58-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxm!pyuxi!pyuxn!rlr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Brave New World

> I believe that the use of conditioning to keep the proles in
> their place is really a secondary theme in "Brave New World",
> although an important one.

It would seem to me that the notion of 'conditioning' people to
believe that they enjoy their wonderful way of life (not just the
proles) was THE primary theme of Brave New World.  Gosh, life is
wonderful, what with soma and the feelies. It's a shame that all we
have in real life is marijuana and MTV, but they seem to do the job,
as we all go on with our shopping.  Everybody's happy nowadays.

                                Rich Rosen    pyuxn!rlr

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 83 19:28:25-PST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 1984 - (nf)

Am I the only one who does NOT think that 1984 was an attempt to
foretell the future??? I'm getting tired of all these comments about
Orwell's "predictions".

                        Scott McEwan
                        uiucdcs!mcewan

------------------------------

Date: Fri 16 Dec 83 16:17:15-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Starburst

This is indeed an expansion of Pohl's story from Galaxy "The Gold at
the Starbow's End".  I cannot say how different it is since I didn't
buy it after discovering it was not wholly new.  Frankly, even if
the bug-ridden US copyright laws allow this kind of
misrepresentation, I don't think authors ought to be a party to it.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 83 16:25:50-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!woody @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Minions of the Moon

I'm looking for a book called "Minions of the Moon;" that I read
about 20 years ago.  It was about a man who was given an
experimental anesthesia for an appendectomy and woke up several
hundred years later in a specially-built dome (I remember that
"they" had provided him with clothing made of fiberglass to be sure
it wouldn't rot before he woke)--to find himself immortal (?  I
remember injuries healed very fast) and with blue blood.  He meets a
being named Omega, who was actually a brain in life-support on the
moon who could project an image of himself to the earth.  I don't
know if it was an adult book or a child's, but I have the feeling
that much of it went over my head at the time, and I'd really like
to reread it!  According to "Books in Print," it's not; and I
haven't had the luck to find it at any book sales or libraries.  Has
anyone else ever heard of it?

                                Janet Hallock
                                aka dsd!woody

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Dec 83 01:20:04 EST
From: Gregory Parkinson <Parkinson@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Book request

I am looking for a story which I think is called "The Darfsteller" -
it's about an actor who has been replaced by (Disneyland terms,
here) audioanimatrons of famous actors, but whose acting style
cannot be captured by the machines.  He works as a janitor in a
theatre which has been converted to use these things, and the plot
thickens when a new show arrives which features the likeness of his
ex-love and leading lady (whose method of acting can be captured)
and used to (when it was done live) feature him.  She (the wetware
one) shows up for the opening and he fiddles with things and .....
I have gone through my fairly large collection of anthologies and
can't find it - made the mistake of loaning it out, no doubt.  If
anyone can help me with the name of the author and where the story
might be found I would appreciate it much.

<^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^>Greg Parkinson----------------
<^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^>Cognitive Systems, New Haven--

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 16 Dec 1983 15:53:22-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!5140!minow@Shasta
Subject: Replying to Jerry Pournelle

"Since MC is dead, it's a bit hard to reply to me." -- JEP.

It's hard to reply to you, Jerry, because you're never listening.
(Unfair, I'm sure, but irresistable none the less.)

Oh yes, another message in V8.130 noted that Johanna Russ claims
that women SF authors are treated badly by publishers.  I thought
that SF authors are badly treated irregardless of race, creed,
color, sex, or natural origins.

And, if you really want to be treated badly, just do translations.

Martin Minow

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1983  11:32 EST (Mon)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Upcoming SF movie.

     I was in a Boston theatre last night and saw, before the start of
the film, the following announcement:

COMING IN 1984


2..0..1..0         The Odyssey Continues


I know I'll be in line when it arrives,
Greg

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 17 December 1983, 17:48-PST
From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #130



    Date: 13 Dec 83 16:04:14-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @
    Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: New Use for .sw in ILM

    Yes, let's talk about artistic and technical aspects of
    Lucasfilm and ILM, and maybe keep the nitpicking down to low
    roar.  As you know, the booklet sold in theatres with ROTJ was
    worth its $3 for photos and explantations of how SFX and models
    were made.  Some questions: Does ILM use computer-generated CRT
    graphics?  Vector or Raster scan?  Do they build their own
    hardware, or all off-the- shelf?  Clearly they write lots of
    software.
        mike k

I've always been a little hazy about the different "sub companies"
of Lucasfilm Ltd.  But ILM primarily does model photography --
motion control, blue screen stuff.  There is also "Sprocket Systems"
which was originally the optical printer/photographic effects
division.  The one you are probably asking about is the Computer
Graphics Project of the Computer Development Group.  I thought this
was part of Sprocket.

These are the people who brought you the "Genesis Demo Sequence"
from "STII: The Wrath of Kahn" as well as the 3D diagram of the
Death Star and Moon of Endor used in the pre-Big Battle scene in
"The Return of the Jedi".

An even better source of good reporting and excellent graphics
regarding special effects production in general is the quartly
CINEFEX.  Each issue is two or three articles which discuss a film's
effects IN DEPTH!

To answer your questions: they use both vector (E&S PS2) and raster
displays, raster including frame buffers as well as high resolution
laser scanning and recording film.  They buy hardware, build
hardware, buy software, write software and plan to sell (at least)
some of their hardware ("Pixar") someday.

They are on UUCP and I know they do read this digest occasionally,
but I've never seen them contribute to any of the flamage.  Very
wise...  -c

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 83 15:49:24-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: My Hero -- Doctor Who!

One of the people in charge of the net groups complained that there
was not enough actual discussion of Doctor Who to warrant the group.
Sooo, here's an entry on that topic! 8-)

As many of you may know, the Doctor has had a total of 4
regenerations as of the Twentieth Anniversary.  The Original Doctor
(Hartnell) didn't get there due to regeneration, before anyone
complains about my count.  Anyway, the Fifth Doctor, Peter Davison,
will be leaving later this season in England, to be replaced by
Colin Baker (not Tom, Colin) 8-< He will by that time have a new
American companion named Peri, played by Nicola somebody (I
forget...Bryant maybe?).  Turlough is destined to leave the Doctor
in Ressurection of the Daleks, when he finally arrives on his home
planet...Skaro!  Anyway, Nyssa is still with the leper colony, and I
haven't heard what happens to Tegan (but I don't think she'll be
around).  Living in the Buffalo area is a bit rough, since we have
yet to see ANY of the Davison Episodes.  My sympathies go out to
those of you who watch the Doctor on WOR, since they only had the
first four seasons of Tom Baker...

Even though the Anniversary is gone, I would like to post a little
song that some friends of mine and I wrote...I think it's rather
seasonal.

THE TWELVE RENEGADE DAYS OF CHRISTMAS
Words by T'Lima Metz, Cathy Napierala, Thomas
         Pellitieri, and T'Lyria of Vulcan
Tune: The Twelve Days of Christmas

On the first day of Christmas, the Doctor gave to me:
         1. A bag full of Jelly Babies
         2. Two Good Daleks
         3. Three K-9's
         4. Four Different Scarves
         5. Five TARDIS Keys
         6. Six Time Key Segments
         7. Seven Keys to Doomsday  /* Dr Who Stage Play Title */
         8. Eight Bobbing Yo-Yo's
         9. Nine Floppy Hats
        10. Ten Time Lords Leaping
        11. Eleven Unit Sergeants
        12. Twelve Regenerations

                                Happy Times and Places,
                                The Parker Hobbit
                                a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri

UUCP: {seismo, allegra}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 83 6:43:22-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Blake's Seven

Alan L. Zeichick <ZEICHICK%MAINE.BITNET@Berkeley> posted:
        Actually, I thought "Blakes Seven" was a
        much better SF series.  The plots were a
        little more valid, the people very interesting,
        and the technology more plausible.  Does anyone
        know if "Blakes Seven" was/is shown in the U.S.?

I am also a Blake's Seven fan and the only way you can see the show
in the U.S. is at sf conventions.  I've seen about a dozen episodes,
including the infamous last one.  I understand that it has been
offered for syndication here but no areas have picked it up.  It's
probably considered "too violent" to get past the censors.  Doctor
Who is definitely more fun to watch, Blake's Seven is decidedly
depressing most of the time, especially once you know how it ends.

                Mary Anne Espenshade
                ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 83 20:33:10 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Old Time Religion

     Hi folks. In early november, I asked for people to send me
verses of the song Old Time Religion, and said in a month that I
would post it to the net. Well, the response was NOT overwhelming,
but I thought that towards the end of the month people would respond
more. It didnt work. So, I am asking again:

      Please send any and all verses of Old Time Religion to

                             quint@ru-green.arpa

        and (assuming I get enough to compile) I will compile them
and post it to sf-lovers. Unfortunately, I can't mail to specific
people, since I don't have the ability to mail directly to the net;
I mail to sf-lovers on my system and it gets redistributed.

     Please notice the address change! I lost my other account.
Again, send it to
                        quint@ru-green.arpa.

try again in 84!
happy solstice!
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 18 Dec 83 14:21:34 PST
From: tekig!philj.tektronix@Rand-Relay
Subject: Re: 'parsecs' as time or distance -- no, as speed

Just to throw my monkey wrench into the ring, 'parsec' stands for
PARA-llax SEC-ond.

The 'second' is an angle measurement (degrees, minutes, seconds). It
is a measure of the amount of warp generated by the drive field,
therefore a measure of speed.  180 degrees is 0 relative velocity, 0
degrees is infinite velocity.

The 'parallax' part has to do with how the instruments measure warp
angle while within the warp.  External instruments, of course,
measure different relative velocities.

The reasons for using 'parsecs' are much too technical to discuss
here; try asking for help in 'net.astro.expert' or
'net.weapons.secret'.  They will tell you where to go for more
information.

Phil Jansen tektronix!tekig!philj

ps Boasting about making a run "within three parsecs" of zero
degrees shows how reckless Han was in his younger days.  Thank
goodness he got married and settled down to raise kids.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 83 9:12:51-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rick @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: black hole in galactic centre

Those of you who have read stories about the galaxy being sucked
into a black hole in it's centre, exploding galactic cores, etc.,
will probably find the following (excerpted from the New York Times)
interesting:

"NEW YORK - Observations with 27 antennas strung out in a large Y
pattern in New Mexico have charted the heart of the Milky Way galaxy
in great detail for the first time. The resulting images reveal
three curving streams of gas that some astronomers believe are
falling into a black hole at the very center.

"... One or more rings of gas flying outward from the inner region
of the galaxy have been described as "smoke rings" generated by
explosions in the core...."

Anyone with ideas on how to get out of here?

        rick floyd
        uucp: (seismo | allegra)!rochester!rick
        arpa: rick@rochester

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Dec 83 1423-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #133
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Dec 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 133

Today's Topics:
       Administrivia - Missing Digests and Season's Greetings
       Books - Miller & Orwell & Pohl (3 msgs) & Varley & Book Request
       Films - Special Effects in Movies (4 msgs) & Starwars
       Television - Dr Who & Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 83 16:42:35 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Administrivia

Hi folks,
        Due to an error on my part there was no issue V8 #131.  You
haven't missed anything.
        I have been receiving messages lately from the mailer Daemon
saying that mailboxes were protected at some sites, and that some
hosts were down.  If you have been having trouble receiving
SF-LOVERS, please let me know and maybe we can straighten things
out.  I hate reading all that returned-to-sender junk.
        At this time I would like to wish everyone out there a Merry
Christmas, or a belated Channukah or Merry Whatever-it-is that you
celebrate this time of year.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 83 19:54:36 PST (Tue)
From: Jim Hester <hester.uci-750a@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Re: Book request

"The Darfsteller", is rather short for a novel, about 70 pages.
It was written by Walter M. Miller Jr., and can be found in
"The Best of Walter M. Miller" (Pocket Books; no editor listed)
and in "The Hugo Winners vol. 1" (ed. by Isaac Asimov).

The original printing was in the January 1955 issue of "Astounding
Science Fiction", but you probably won't be able to find this.

Hope this helps.        Jim

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to Tom Butler
(ihnp4!ihuxn!ttb@ucb-vax) and Arturo Perez (uc.art@mit-eecs) for
submitting the same information]

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 83 8:36:20-PST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Pucc-I.Pucc-K.ags @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 1984

Mark Callow points out that the list of most-censored books contains
some very worthwhile works.  This is not surprising.

Trashy books seldom get censored, partly because they are not used
in schools (and therefore do not attract much attention) and partly
because they contain few ideas which the powers-that-be find
threatening.

I heard of one case in which the school board member who was leading
the crusade to ban John Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" (on the
grounds that it contained "bad language" and was "unsuitable for the
classroom") was the president of a local bank.  Could it be that he
had entirely different reasons for wanting the book banned?



                                Dave Seaman
                                ..!pur-ee!pucc-k:ags

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 83 5:02:27-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!greg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Starburst? by Pohl - (nf)

"Starburst" by Frederik Pohl is indeed an expanded version of his
previous story "The Gold at Starbow's End."  I'm sorry to say it
suffers by the expansion.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 83 14:26:44 PST (Friday)
From: Haynes.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!akhtar@Ucb-Vax.ARPA

Starburst is an expanded version of Pohl's (Hugo/Nebula award
winning?)  short story "The Gold at the Starbow's End".  In my
biased opinion, it suffered in the expansion.

        -- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 83 13:34:04-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!amd70!tc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: STARBURST by Pohl

Someone asked about "Starburst" by Frederik Pohl.  It is a whole lot
like "The Gold at the Starbow's End".  "Gold" was published in
Analog in 1972 and published (again in 1972) in a collection titled
"The Gold..."

I have seen two articles in net.sf-lovers suggesting that "Gold" was
much better than "Starburst".  "Starburst" has lots of new material
and I would recommend it, especially for people who didn't read
"Gold.."

I recently re-read "Day Million" by Pohl.  I think that is an
EXCELLENT short story.

                                Tom Crawford
                                ...amd70!tc

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 83 22:25:22-EST (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!ucbcad!kalash @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: John Varley - (nf)

> According to our book-buyer at the campus bookstore, Varley's
> MILLENNIUM is indeed going to be a movie.  In fact, he contracted
> to write MILLENIUM and its screenplay, before he could finish
> DEMON, the third book in his Gaia trilogy.

        MILLENNIUM is indeed the novelization of his movie script,
but I had heard that the movie was NOT going to be made (also that
Varley was feed up with Hollywood and all that).

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 22 December 1983 04:09 est
From: Bergman.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: title request

A story about an alien landing and talking to cats for a while,
making no attempt at contacting "monkey people" (or some
similar term) and leaving--taking with her the narrator's cat,
whom he had followed, which is how he found out about this.
Just before leaving, she asks the cats whether she should
destroy the monkeys, who obviously deserve it for having kept
the cats in bondage and such nonsense, and they defend us (we
get to hear her translation of their speech).

Any ideas as to title, author, where collected?


Also, I am looking for good cat/sf books/stories.  So far I've got
Andre Norton's stuff, and The Wanderer by Fritz Leiber

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 83 10:48:36-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: E&S Vector Graphics in movies?

I assume E&S means Evans & Sutherland.  I thought their work (at U
of Utah) was all raster, but good for them.  Do you have any
particulars on the PS2 system, such as usec/vector, or how many it
can draw in 1/30 sec?
        BTW, I thought the Genesis demo in ST II was the most
thrilling piece of compputer animation i'd ever seen.  The
pre-battle briefing in ROTJ really got my attention too.  But I
think both of those were raster...mike k

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 83 15:22:13-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!linus!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Special Effects

The cover story of the first issue of Abacus magazine (fall 1983) is
about the computer-generated images and other special effects in
ROTJ.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 83 8:07:11-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!mason @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: New Use for .sw in ILM

>       Does ILM use computer generated CRT graphics?

Do they ever!  There are the obvious computer generated sequences:
pictures/diagrams of the death stars.  The other place you can see
computer generated graphics (although of a different sort) is in the
extensive blue-screening.  When I went to ROJ, we sat in the front
row.  I found the movie a bit dull, but spent lots of time looking
at the rasters in the images.  Look particularly at the fight scene
in the DS..all reasterized.  My estimate of the resolution is about
4096 dots wide, although I would be interested in corrections.  I'm
almost tempted to go to see it again so I can look for rasters
throughout.  Seems to me there are some problems in the processing
in the desert scene & air-car that have been mentioned in this
group.  There were similar problems in SW just outside that bar: the
shadows & aircars have trouble tracking each other.  --
 -- Dave Mason, U. Toronto CSRG,
        {utzoo,linus,cornell,watmath,ihnp4,allegra,floyd,decwrl,
         decvax,uw-beaver,ubc-vision}!utcsrgv!mason

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 83 17:14:11-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!bukys @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: New Use for .sw in ILM

There were a few frames in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" which seemed
obviously computer-generated to me: Indiana Jones dropping the staff
down into the buried room, as seen from inside the room.  I have no
idea why that would be computer-generated, unless, perhaps, the sets
didn't include such a view.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1983 07:40:21 PST
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: ANH in 1975?

Re the msg in Volume 8, Issue 130:

   "When I saw Star Wars the first time (in '75) ..."

The film was not released until midway through 1977, and had not
finished principal photography until a year before that (not
including SFX).  The only person to see it in 1975 may have been
Lucas, in his mind's eye.  Unless you have a working time
machine..........

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 83 12:54:10-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2a!argo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dr. Who question

        I've just had the great misfortune of missing the last
episode of John Pertwee's episode, "Planet of the Spiders."  I had
seen the first five, and then missed that final last episode.  I
know Pertwee "dies" in that episode, and I missed it!!!!!  Anyway,
if anyone can send me a capsule summary of that episode, I could
find some consolation.
        By the way, about the new newsgroup, instead of discussing
it, why not just start a newsgroup and see if it works.  I don't
think most people really care whether it's a top-level group or not.

                                                Thanks,
                                                Andrew Garrett

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 1983  17:24 EST (Tue)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #132

     While watching the first part of "The Menagerie" last night, I
heard an interesting tid-bit about the warp drives.  In an excerpt
from the Thelogian (sp?) transmission, Spock is heard to say "...
proceeding at TIME warp seven.".  For some reason, I have always
thought that the warp drives warped space, but then again, you know,
the space-time continuum and all.

Greg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Dec 83 1526-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #134
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 28 Dec 1983    Volume 8 : Issue 134

Today's Topics:
                  Books - Anne McCaffrey (2 msgs)
                  Film - Star Wars (3 msgs)
                  Miscellaneous - Parsecs (3 msgs) & Black Holes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 83 9:28:43-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Anne McCaffrey & Dinosaur Planet

     >From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA> I read Dinosaur Planet and
     >was mildly amused.  The book ends sort of in the middle and is
     >dieing for a sequel.  Has anyone heard of anything about a
     >sequel for this?  It's been out for a while now so it doesn't
     >look likely.

        I remember reading Dinosaur Planet what seems like eons ago.
I bought the book because on it's cover it has brazen in large
letters "The Beginning of a Stunning New Trilogy" or something like
that and I thought it would be kind of fun to be on top of a trilogy
for once.
        Unfortunately, Ms. MacCaffrey hasn't done a thing with it
since then and I, too, am curious about what happened to the "grand
plan".
        I can't help you resolve the mystery, just let you know that
there are others out there who share your wonderings.

                               Dwight Bartholomew

UUCP:
{decvax,ucbvax,harpo,allegra,inuxc,seismo,teklabs}!pur-ee!Physics:dub
ARPA: dub @ pur-phy.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 83 22:25:36-EST (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!ucbcad!kalash @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Anne McCaffrey & Dinosaur Planet - (nf)

> I read Dinosaur Planet and was mildly amused.  The book ends sort
> of in the middle and is dieing for a sequel.  Has anyone heard of
> anything about a sequel for this?  It's been out for a while now
> so it doesn't look likely.

        I have heard an emphatic "NO".

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 83 19:51:04-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!rigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star Population = Imperial Cas - (nf)



        What I want to know is why anyone would build anything so
easy to shoot down!

Some of these are actually points in FAVOR of a huge ship!

Method 1) Nuclear Bombs - apparently not permissable in universe of
discourse

The bigger the ship, the more likely it is to survive a Nuclear
bomb.  Remember space has no atmosphere to transmit any shock
effect, and the larger the object is, the faster it can radiate away
the heat, and the more backups it can have.  Assuming its
electronics are not vulnerable to EMP (if there would even be an EMP
in deep space, which is doubtful), the only effect would be
radiation damage to the crew.  And if it has thick shielding, not
even that.  My impression is that nukes are too primitive to be
useful, although the torpedoes may be pure fusion-based.

Method 2) Put 'droids on large star ship filled w/ rocks.  Wait for
death star to be at edge of solar system.  Have ship go into hyper
space and reappear INSIDE death star ..... BOOM

I don't believe ships can leave hyperspace to materialize inside
another object, due to densities, gravitational gradients, or
whatever.  If this wasn't true, you wouldn't need a deathstar to
destroy a planet, just a small spaceship with an expendable crew.
(However, I'm in favor of anything that kills droids :-)

Method 3) Infect person or 'droids w/ something realy nasty  Bubonic
Plague, Tyfoid,  aerilian death fungus....   Let same be picked up
by DS.  Wait.

Again, the larger the ship, the less effective this is.  The
Deathstar has massive medical facilities, and can seal off infected
areas with no trouble.  But maybe that's why the Stormtroopers are
always wearing respirators, to avoid catching anything nasty from
the rebels. :-)

Method 4) Since small craft can get by defenses - send in small
drones w/ large (non nuke) bombs.  Use them to dig way to reactors
and blow same.

This is essentially what was done in Star Wars I, and you can be
sure it would have been corrected on the second Death Star.  If you
try to dig your way to the reactors, it'll take a LONG time through
solid steel or whatever, I seriously doubt whether a small burrowing
bomb could do the job.

Of course, all this is in fun.  We all know the REAL reason the
Death Star's so large is because it's a giant capacitor; the planet
destroying beam is a glorified spark! :-)

        Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!rigney

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 83 19:51:39-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!rigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Question: Powers of Lite Sabres - (nf)

Apparantly Darth discarded his old light saber when he changed
allegience, as a symbol of his rebirth.  Likewise Luke's building
his own light saber in a different color is a reflection of his
changing relation with the force.  I'd certainly like to know what
Yoda's light saber was like, or did he even have one?  He'd
certainly be at a handicap in reach.

        Carl

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 83 19:51:27-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!rigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Lightsabers - (nf)

If you'll recall in the first movie, there were some massive
batteries in the handle.  I think the identification of Light Sabers
with wielders of the Force came about because it's not a terribly
useful weapon without a lot of practice and the skill (link with the
force) to use it in defending from ranged attacks.

        Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!rigney

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 83 19:51:51-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!rigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf)

Except the number of seconds in an arc is arbitrary, too.  There's
no universal reason for 60 seconds to a minute, 60 minutes to a
degree, 360 degrees to a circle.  2pi radians in a circumference is
universal, but it seems more likely that universal measurements
would be based on powers of two times the fundamental constants of
physics (planck's constant, speed of light, or whatever).

I don't believe Han said Parsec any more than I believe they were
all speaking English "a long, long time ago," obviously when the
language gets translated, the measuring system is expressed in
familiar terms as well.

        Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!rigney

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 83 9:03:19-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!fluke!inc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Parsecs

Are you *sure* that a parsec is a local unit of measurement? My big
old Webster's says it is equal to a *heliocentric* paralllax of one
arc second. It is then converted to earth radii, then to
light-years. Seems to me that what a parsec is is a distance that
you have to be away from a sun to observe one arc-second of
parallax. Maybe a scientist who really knows, or someone who cares
to research it more thoroughly would care to set us all straight...

may the force be be with you
and with your spirit

Gary (also outgrew Rome) Benson

!fluke!inc

--
---
Gary Benson
John Fluke Mfg. Co.
Everett, WA, USA

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 83 6:32:53-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxm!mhuxr!mhuxt!mhuxh!hlhop!pcc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Parsecs, etc.

For John Opalko,

You apparently outgrew the notion that the speed of light is a
constant at the same time that you outgrew Catholocism.  Perhaps you
should study Physics more religiously.  You would discover that the
speed of light is the same on Mercury as it is on Pluto!

                         Pete Criqui
                         AT&T Technologies @ Bell Labs - Short Hills

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 83 12:06:36-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: black hole in galactic centre - (nf)

How to escape our galaxy's blow-up (black hole at center, etc,
etc,)?

See Larry Niven, "Ringworld", "Ringworld Engineers", "Tales of KNown
Space", and whatever the novel was that was the short story
"Rammer".

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Dec 83 1725-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #135
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 31 Dec 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 135

Today's Topics:
         Books - Bradley & Leiber & Niven (3 msgs) & Orwell
         Television - Star Trek (2 msgs)
         Miscellaneous - Black Holes & The Parsec (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1983 0150-PST
Subject: Darkover
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>

Can anyone give me a list of books in Marion Zimmer Bradley's
Darkover series and suggest the order to read them in?  I just read
the SF book club's edition of "The Shattered Chain" and "Thendara
House" and thought they were quite good.  However, they seem to have
refered to things which have happened in other books.  I looked in
the bookstore and it seems as if MZB has written a million books in
that series!!  Which ones should be read to get a good idea of the
entire Darkover History?

                                        Alan

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 83 18:11:17 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: stories of cats

     The story you are looking for was written by Fritz Leiber.  I
don't remember the title exactly, but it is collected in The Book Of
Fritz Leiber, which is a book in which short stories alternate with
articles he has written. It is about the same cat that is in a lot
of his cat stories, called Gummitch. This cat's first story (from the
timeline of the cat) is the story Spacetime for Springers, collected
in The Best Of Fritz Leiber. (these *are* two different books.)
While I have not gotten my little paws on any of his other Gummitch
stories, he says in The Book Of... that there are others written
about Gummitch.

have fun searching them out.....
happy solstice
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 83 10:44:23-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.ab3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Lucifer's Hammer

        Just a short note to tip off those of you (all 3, no doubt)
who haven't read this yet -- do so.  It is based on one
"science-fictional" premise -- pieces of a wandering comet come down
on earth with some advance warning.  Some of the book falls into the
standard "It's-the-end- of-the-world-anyway-so-let's-{steal, rape,
murder, eat lunch}" category, but by and large the authors avoid
this trap. (Niven/Pournelle)
        The characterizations are vivid, the events are believable,
and the storyline is well-structured.  Go buy it.

Darth Wombat
{ allegra, decvax, ihnp4, harpo, seismo, teklabs, ucbvax } !pur-ee!rsk

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 83 6:44:47-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihldt!tmh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re:Lucifer's Hammer

I really had some problems with Lucifer's Hammer.  It was all right,
except the disaster was only bad news if you lived on the sea coast
or happened to be standing under one of the rocks.  The story is
told from the point of people in L.A. so they are pretty well wiped
out by a tidal wave, but from the things they were saying most of
the Midwest would have survived all right.  There was another
depressing theme running throughout the book and that was that given
any opportunity the U.S. as a country would break up.  It was also
sort of bad that both Russia and China launched their Nuclear
Warheads at each other and there is no effect on the characters in
this country.  I have been a fan of both authors works and the Mote
in God's eye was definitely a superior book, but this one was a
disappointment.

                                        Tom Harris

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 83 14:31:46-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dann @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Lucifer"s Hammer

   Most of Lucifer's Hammer was the stuff of which made-for-tv
   movies are made.  Still, any reasonably crafted SF is welcome in
   these troubled times of Tolkien and Conan imitations.

     The best scene in Lucifer's Hammer is probably the surfer,
     catching that last *big* wave.

dann

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1983 10:14:41 EST
From: MAGILL.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (MSCF Operations Manager)
Subject: SF-Lovers / Orwell analyzed by professionals

 For a complete discussion of 1984 including a literary discussion
of Orwell's life, times and writing style I highly recommend the
December issue of the "Futurist", the Bulletin of the World Future
Society.  The WFS has (or at least had) a mail drop on "The Source".
The literary analysis of Orwell's work is quite interesting.  It
seems that NONE of Orwell's "predictions" have even come close to
reality. People have taken the computer of today and assumed that
this was what Orwell "foresaw". In reality Orwell never even vaguely
conceived of the computer.
 Similarly, the entire of Orwell's work is seen as satire of the
type done by Jonathan Swift. Where Swift created a separate country
cated in some remote part of the globe, Orwell did not have the
luxury.  Orwell's globe had been almost completely explored so he
placed his "Oceana, etc." in the "real" world but in the future.
Note that he was not trying to write science fiction.  Orwell's work
is important because it does provide an "alternate reality" which
could or could not happen depending upon the course taken by
humanity.  Enough said, READ the December "Futurist"!  (If you wish
information on the WFS drop me a note.)
. . . . . . .
Bill Magill -
Moore School Computing Facility - University of Pennsylvania
Magill%Upenn-1100@CSnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1983 1413-PST
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO@KESTREL>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #133

    Date: 20 Dec 1983  17:24 EST (Tue)
    From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
    Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #132

         While watching the first part of "The Menagerie" last
    night, I heard an interesting tid-bit about the warp drives.  In
    an excerpt from the Thelogian (sp?) transmission, Spock is heard
    to say "...  proceeding at TIME warp seven.".  For some reason,
    I have always thought that the warp drives warped space, but
    then again, you know, the space-time continuum and all.

Maybe Spock spent too much time watching the "Rocky Horror Show"...

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 27 Dec 1983 07:52:45-PST
From: Dave Butenhof <decwrl!rhea!orac!butenhof@SU-Shasta>
Subject: Re: The Menagerie

Hi there - considering the number of ST fans that are probably out
there, the comment I'm addressing has probably gotten tons of
responses already; but I might as well jump in.  After all, I just
started getting this Digest, so I have to join in SOMEWHERE . . .

Spock's "TIME warp 7" report was due to the primative state of the
ST universe at the time of The Menagerie (originally "The Cage").
There were many other differences - you may have noticed that Majel
Barrett was "Number One", a first-officer with the beginnings of the
later Spock personality; while Spock played a much more emotional
character, and also looked somewhat different than later.  The "time
warp" line would be one of many technical differences you could
notice in the episode; it was simply changed later to the "space
warp" form which seemed to make more sense.

For anyone who might not know, The Menagerie was the original ST
pilot movie.  It wasn't bought, since it was too cerebral, and not
very action oriented.  Roddenbury came up with a more acceptable
pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before, and later used both of them as
episodes.  For the series, The Menagerie was split into a
two-parter: even so, most of the really good stuff was cut out.  I
had the opportunity to see the original movie at a "World of Star
Trek" show; I'm not sure I'd call it Star Trek, at least by
comparison with the ST Universe NOW, but it was certainly a damned
good movie by any standards.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1983  08:19 EST (Wed)
From: Arturo Perez@MIT-EECS <UC.ART@MIT-EECS>
Subject: black hole in galactic centre

I'm glad we have so much time to in which to learn how to get out of
here and to do so.  What is it about 30,000 years?  Have Fun!

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 83 16:51:35-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxj!rjh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: What a 'parsec' is.

According to @i(The Astronomical Almanac for the Year 1982) by the
Nautical Almanac Office, U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, D.C.
and Her Majesty's Nautical Almanac Office, Royal Greenwich
Observatory, London, on page M10 of the glossary:

        @i(parsec): the distance at which one @i(astronomical unit)
            subtends an angle of one second of arc; equivalently
            the distance to an object having an annual @i(parallax)
            of one second of arc.

on page M2 of the glossary:

                    @i(astronomical unit) (a.u.): a unit of length,
            originally defined as the length of the @i(semimajor
            axis) of the Earth's @i(orbit). It is now defined
            dynamically by using Kepler's third law:
                @i(n)^2 * @i(a)^3 = @i(k)^2 * (1+@i(m)) where @i(a)
            is the semimajor axis of an elliptic orbit (in a.u.),
            @i(n) is the sidereal @i(mean motion) (in radians per
            @i(ephemeris day)), @i(m) is the mass (in solar
            masses), and the value of the Gaussian gravitational
            constant @i(k) is defined to be exactly 0.01720209895.
            As determined from this definition the semimajor axis of
            the Earth's orbit is 1.000000031 a.u.

The underscored [changed to @i(text) as in SCRIBE - Saul]
words and symbols were italized in the original text.

        Randolph J. Herber, Amdahl Systems Engineer,
        ..!ihnp4!ihuxj!rjh,
        c/o IH 1C220, AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL 60566,
            (312) 979-6554 or AT&T Cornet 8-367-6554,
         or Amdahl Corp., Suite 250, 6400 Shafer, Rosemont, IL 60018,
            (312) 692-7520

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 83 11:54:30-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!iwu1c!jgpo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RE: Re: Parsecs, etc.

For John Opalko,

You apparently outgrew the notion that the speed of light is a
constant at the same time that you outgrew Catholocism.  Perhaps you
should study Physics more religiously.  You would discover that the
speed of light is the same on Mercury as it is on Pluto!

                         Pete Criqui
                         AT&T Technologies @ Bell Labs - Short Hills

For Pete Criqui,

No, the speed of light is definitely the same on Mercury as on Pluto
(along with everywhere else) but the *lengths of their years* sure
aren't.  A Plutonian lightyear is one heck of a lot longer than a
Mercurian LY.  THAT was the example I was trying to express.

Of course, unless there are sentient Mercurians and Plutonians
trying to create a system of measures, the whole point is academic
anyway.  :-)


        John Opalko
        AT&T Bell Labs (or whatever we're being called this week)
            - Naperville, IL

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 83 9:13:02-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Parsecs

>In article <138@tpvax.fluke.UUCP> inc@fluke.UUCP (Gary Benson)
>writes:
>Are you *sure* that a parsec is a local unit of measurement? My big
>old Webster's says it is equal to a *heliocentric* parallax of one
>arc second. It is then converted to earth radii, then to
>light-years. Seems to me that what a parsec is is a distance that
>you have to be away from a sun to observe one arc-second of
>parallax. Maybe a scientist who really knows, or someone who cares
>to research it more thoroughly would care to set us all straight...

If the position of a star when seen against the background sky
changes by one second of arc when measured from two points on the
Earth's orbit that are on the opposite sides of the sun from each
other, then the distance to that star is exactly 1 parsec.

Note that the Earth's orbit is a factor.  Because Mars (for example)
has a larger orbit diameter, a star that is one Earth parsec away
will be measured as being less than one Mars parsec away.  A Mars
parsec is greater than an Earth parsec by the same proportion that
Mars' orbit is greater than the Earth's.

Proof:


                        Mars' orbit
                |-------------------------|
                |                         |
                |         Earth's         |
                |          orbit          |
                |      |-----------|      |
                v      v           v      v
                A      B     O     C      D
                            Sun




                                      Star
                                       o




                                     D'   C'      B'   A'
         (Measured locations of the star against the background sky)

Imagine lines between A and A', B and B' etc.  (I can't draw them)
All of these lines intersect at o (the star).

1)  angle D'oA' = angle AoD and angle C'oB' = BoC
    (when two lines intersect, opposite angles are congruent.)

2)  angle ADD' = angle DD'A', angle DAA' = angle AA'D',
    angle BCC' = angle CC'B', angle CBB' = angle BB'C'
    (opposite interior angles are congruent)

3)  triangle ADo and A'D'o are similar, triangle BCo and B'C'o are
    similar (angle, angle, angle)

4)  therefore      AD         A'D'
                 ------  =  --------  =>  the measured parallax is
                   BC         B'C'        proportional to the orbit
                                          size

Therefore, for a planet whose orbit is twice the diameter of
Earth's, it's parsec is twice as long as Earth's.

Thus, the parsec is not a universal physical constant.
--
Jon Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3,trw-unix}!sdcrdcf!jonab

------------------------------

Date: 30 December 1983 13:16 cst
From: EJSharpe.AVDNSWE at HI-MULTICS
Subject: Re: Parsecs

   The 'parsec' is a contraction of 'parallax-second'.  It is a unit
of distance commonly used in Astronomy to represent very great
distances in convenient units.  A parsec is the distance at which a
stationary object would appear to shift 1 arc-second, with respect
to very distant background stars, when viewed from opposite sides of
the earth's orbit.  This is the same thing as measuring distances by
triangulation here on earth-- you know, the method used by
surveyors, satellite tracking stations, radar stations, and so on.
On earth, two observers, seperated by a known distance, called the
baseline, view the object.  Each of them compares the apparent
angular position of the object to some agreed upon reference point,
such as magnetic north, then they compare the apparent angular
position each of them measured, and, using trigonometry they can
determine the distance from the center of the baseline to the
object.  Astronomers do the same thing to measure stellar distances,
except that they use the longest baseline they have access to (for
increased accuracy), namely, the diameter of the earth's orbit.  The
only drawback is that they have to make one observation, and then
wait 6 months before they make their second observation, so that the
earth can carry them to the opposite side of its orbit.  If an
object appears to shift its position by 1 arc-second it is said to
be one parsec away.  If it appears to move .1 arc-second it is said
to be ten parsecs away, etc.  As it turns out, one parsec is equal
to 3.26 light years ( a light year is the distance light travels in
one year), or approximately 19,000,000,000,000 miles.

-Todd Burlet  (co EJSharpe.AVDNSWE -at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 31 Dec 83 2030-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #136
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Dec 83 2030-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V8 #136
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 31 Dec 1983     Volume 8 : Issue 136

Today's Topics:
             Books - MacLeish (3 msgs) & Matriarchies,
             Television - Dr Who (2 msgs),
             Films - Star Wars (2 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - The Parsec

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 83 14:07:19 EST
From: Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: a book you might find interesting

"Prince Ombra", Roderick MacLeish [this is the fellow who does the
news on PBS].  This book is showing up in the "best-seller" section
of bookstores, so some of you may (like me) be wary of looking at
it.  It is in fact a very fine fantasy.  It is set in the present
day.  The protagonist is the heir of the likes of David and King
Arthur.  It is his task to confront Prince Ombra, the source of all
evil in the Universe.  Such champions are born from time to time.
Unlike all other mortals, they know their purpose in life (and
remember where they were before they were born).  At a certain point
in their lives, they discover the mystical stone of Ra, which arms
them for the confrontation, and in some unexplained way, summons
Prince Ombra for battle.  The somewhat unusual thing about this
particular hero is that he is 8 years old.  As you might imagine,
such a task is a bit much for an 8-year-old to handle, and he does
do some ill-considered things.  Indeed his equivalent of Merlin
(each champion has a Teacher and a Rememberer - Merlin was the
Teacher) is a child psychiatrist called in to handle his obvious
peculiarities.  The book has a number of strong points:
  - the writing is very fine.  The language is close to poetry in
        many points.
  - the characters are convincing and human.  He does best with
        disillusioned people fighting their way to find hope in the
        world (or resisting doing so).
  - the handling of evil is very interesting.  Prince Ombra attacks
        the small New England town in which our hero lives.  But what
        is interesting is that he attacks and withdraws several times.
        It is fascinating to see how his presence or absence affects
        all the minor day to day conflicts that go on around us.  The
        most impressive accomplishment of the book is this ability
        to see through the mundaneness of everyday life to the
        conflict of good and evil that lies behind it.
Interestingly enough, its weak point is its portrayal of good.
MacLeish clearly believes that there is good in the Universe.  One
of the characters says that people are afraid to believe in perfect
evil, because if they do they will have to believe in perfect good.
And then they will have to take tranquilizers all the time to hide
from how far short they fall.  But the fact is that we see Prince
Ombra quite clearly, but all we see of good is humans struggling to
find a bit of hope in the world.  In that sense this book typifies
the tragedy of modern life, that so many of us find it all too easy
to believe in the Devil, but not in God.  It is thus interesting to
contrast this book with C.S. Lewis' book "That Hideous Strength".
The latter, although probably somewhat inferior as a piece of
literature, has very similar strengths: it helps us see through the
veneer of the world to the conflict between good and evil going on
around us.  But Lewis gives a convincing portrayal of both good and
evil.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 83 13:26:47-PST (Wed)
From: sun!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: a book you might find interesting

        From:  Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>

        "Prince Ombra", Roderick MacLeish [this is the fellow who
        does the news on PBS].  This book ...

The only person I can think of that you might mean is Robert MacNeil
of the MacNeil-Lehrer Report.  This type of error in an article
casts doubt on the accuracy of the rest of it.  Is the book in fact
by Robert MacNeil or are you confused about who does the news on
PBS?

 -- >From the Tardis of Mark Callow msc@qubix.UUCP,
decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 83 5:51:04-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!linus!vaxine!reg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: A book you might find interesting

Rod MacLeish is a commentator on NPR's (that's National Public
RADIO) show "Morning Edition".  Please check your comments before
commenting on other people's comments.

                                      Rick Genter
                                      Automatix Inc.
                                      ...!decvax!linus!vaxine!reg

------------------------------

Date: Fri 30 Dec 83 03:53:05-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Matriarchies

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Scientifictional Matriarchies ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As oldtimers on SF-L may recall (there ARE still some oldtimers
around, aren't there?  What ever happened to Roger Duffy, or Larke,
or Karen at Park-Max, or Bruce Israel?), I collect-- and study-- SF
books with female protagonists.  Haven't given much attention to
this project for a long time, other than buying the paperbacks as I
come across them, but am now getting up steam on it again.  It's
grown beyond what can be readily handled, so for one thing, I'm
working it up as a database (using System 2000).  For another, I'll
be putting out queries on the net from time to time in hopes of
gleaning information from the more voracious readers out there.

For instance, regardless of the gender of the protagonist, what SF
(NOT mainstream or feminist-published) novels (NOT short stories)
feature matriarchies?

I've come across:
   Anderson's VIRGIN PLANET
   Bradley's RUINS OF ISIS
   Charnas' MOTHERLINES
   Cherryh's SERPENT'S REACH  (non-humanoid aliens)
   Cooper's GENDER GENOCIDE
   DeCamp's ROGUE QUEEN  (humanoid aliens)
   Lane's MIZORA
   Maine's ALPH
   Reynolds' AMAZON PLANET

Surely there's more than that!  Anyone know of any others?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 83 6:32:07-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!duke!mcnc!ncsu!mcm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Five Doctors

Unfortunatly, I was out of town when 'The Five Doctors' was shown.
I set up my VCR to record it, but I ran out of tape before the show
ended (I put 'The Three Doctors' on the same tape.)  I have
everything up to the part where Rassilon speaks from the crypt. Did
anyone tape the entire show?  I know what happens, but I'd like to
see it for myself.

On another subject, recently I watched 'The Ribos Operation'.  At
the beginning, Rommana said that she graduated triple first from the
academy.  She also implied that the Doctor graduated with 51% on the
second attempt.  I can believe this of Tom Baker's Doctor, but not
of the first Doctor.  Has anyone seen enough of the first Doctor to
know if this is possible?  >From what I've seen, the first Doctor
really knows his stuff.

        Mike Mitchell
        duke!mcnc!ncsu!mcm

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 83 16:15:24-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2a!argo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Five Doctors

        As long as the subject was mentioned, I also managed to miss
the five doctors episode through a fantastic combination of bad
luck.  If anyone has a video cassette of the episode that I can
borrow in order to see this, please reply by mail and tell me so.  I
understand it was a classic episode, and would love to see it for
myself.

                                                Thanks,
                                                Andrew Garrett

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 83 19:51:17-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!rigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Is there significance behind the col - (nf)

After Empire Strikes Back, we all thought it would be neat if in the
final scene, where Luke is standing behind Leia, with a grim
expression on his face; he pulls his light saber, which is now red,
and slashes it down at her head.  Just before it connects, the frame
freezes, the credits roll, and the audience has to wait 3 years to
find out if Luke has Really turned evil.

I always considered the colors to reflect the nature of the user,
although the more reasonable explanation is that the wielder just
builds it with whatever wavelength he favors.  Or perhaps certain
wavelengths are easier for certain mindsets.

        Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!rigney

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 83 5:15:32-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!clyde!akgua!psuvax!burdvax!bmcjmp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Lightsabers

I was of the opinion tha Luke's new lightsaber is green because
green is the complimentary color of red. What that means is that,
when dealing with pure light, taking red light (as in Vader's
lightsaber) and green light (Luke's), and blending them, the result
is white light. This fits in rather nicely with the themes of the
movie, but I am willing to believe it to be a coincidence -- anybody
have any thoughts on this?

Barb Puder, burdvax!bmcjmp (not burvax! puder -- please!)

------------------------------

Date: 24 DEC 1983 0443 EST
From: METZ at MIT-ML

Many verses of `Real Old Time Religion' can be found in the pages of
Filthy Pierre;s Microfilk. Try to find someone who has a copy. -HSM

------------------------------

From: Joe Buck <buck@NRL-CSS>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 83 18:13:10 EST
Subject: Definition of a parsec

There appears to be some confusion over the definition of "parsec".

"Parsec" comes from "parellax second". A nearby star appears to
shift its position with respect to the more distant stars when
viewed six months apart, because the earth has moved by 2 A.U.'s
(about 186 million miles).  A star one parsec away appears to move
one second of arc (1/3600 of a degree) with respect to more distant
stars.

               *  - star
              /|\
             / | \    (NOT TO SCALE - obviously)
            /  |  \
           /   |   \
earth(JUN)o----*----o  - earth(DEC)
              sun

If the angle at the star (between the hypotenuse and the vertical)
is x, the distance from the earth to the star is 1 A.U. divided by
sin x.  If x is small enough, sin x is roughly equal to x, if x is
measured in radians. So one parsec is

                 1 A.U. * 360 * 3600
                 -------------------
                         2 pi

which is about 1.9E13 miles, or a little over 3 light years.

As you can see, the parsec depends on the distance from the earth to
the sun, so it's doubtful someone in another galaxy would want to
use it. Also, there is no unit of time anywhere (as opposed to the
light-year), so I don't understand how this error arose.


Joe Buck

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


